Guns and false dichotomies

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:40 am

Let's do that. Excellent free or near free air museum at McClellan. All the metal tipped dart pubs have gone electric though............ I don't talk airplanes much though. airmanship, yes. Its mostly about taking responsibility.
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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by ElectricMonk » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:10 am

How many knives are accidentally used by toddlers each week?

It requires a lot of delusion to think that kinves are only marginally less dangerous than guns.

For one, it's much easier to treat stab-wounds than gunshot wounds. Secondly, killing with a knife requires training- which is hard to get, unlike shooting practice. And you can defend yourself against a knife, but not a gun, if used on purpose.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by xouper » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:32 am

ElectricMonk wrote:How many knives are accidentally used by toddlers each week?
Is that a trick question?

OK, I give, how many?

ElectricMonk wrote:And you can defend yourself against a knife, but not a gun, if used on purpose.
That is factually incorrect.

I have already posted several examples of victims who have successfully defended against an armed robber.

Here again is one such example, in case you have not already seen it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQiiHk_Lujw

Where the armed victim successfully stops an armed robber without ever firing a shot. A gun pointed at his face is a good way to persuade a bad guy to stop the attack and of course he then runs away. Threat stopped. That only works because the bad guy knows how lethal a gun can be. Pointing a bar of soap at the bad guy is not nearly as effective as a gun designed to kill.

There are also many examples of armed robbers being stopped by armed bystanders.

Clearly a gun can be used successfully for defense against armed bad guys.

If you don't know how to do it, then perhaps you are better off not carrying a gun. And you might even survive if attacked. But that is not sufficient justification for denying others the option to be armed for self defense if they choose.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:04 pm

I am happy with Xoupers concession that guns are much more lethal than knives. The number 50 is a guide, but if he does not wish to accept it, then I am OK with that. The thing is that Xouper is such a stubborn cuss that any concession at all is a cause for celebration.

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Re: Guns anof a certain type, and d false dichotomies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:10 pm

Ranb wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: 1. Automatic weapons are maximally designed to kill people thereby having less support to keep them legal.
But what evidence is there that legally possessed machine guns are a problem in the USA? Have any at all?
You mean there is not a single instance of "machine" guns being used in the USA? OK. Then the issue would be one of the potential for their use in the future. A question of values and risk tolerance.
Ranb wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:2. Legally possessed ones are used to kill people by their owners, owners family members, or by theives who steal them.
Can you name one? I'm talking about automatic, not semi-automatic.
I'm talking guns in general. Evidently you agree regarding all other categories than automatic?
Ranb wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:3. Armor Piercing...see No 1 and why have them around at all except for their designed purpose???
Do you know what armor piercing ammunition is? There is a legal definition which applies to certain handgun ammo only. Then there is the kind that is designed to penetrate armor (hard, like vehicles) that is used in rifles and is designated as such by the military.
Seems to me that here it is YOU who are refusing to engage, offer evidence, have facts?

I'll stop here. No need for more than three bullets to a clip.
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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:30 pm

xouper wrote:
Clearly a gun can be used successfully for defense against armed bad guys.
So can a taser, pepper spray, sonic alarm, or a loud scream. The best defense though, is to ensure that the bad guy does not have a gun.

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Re: Guns anof a certain type, and d false dichotomies

Post by Ranb » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:46 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: You mean there is not a single instance of "machine" guns being used in the USA?
Not what i said at all. You brought up the legality of machine guns, foolishly claimed they were illegal in the USA. Of course you have no reason to believe your stupid claim is true, so why make the claim?

I said legally possessed machine guns were not a problem. Now you're suggesting I said any machine gun (legal and contraband) are not a problem. Perhaps you can answer without shifting the goalposts?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:OK. Then the issue would be one of the potential for their use in the future. A question of values and risk tolerance.
So what is the potention for misuse of legally possessed machine guns in the future. Seeing as how you don't know of a single misuse of a civilian legal machine gun in the USA since registration was required in 1934, why do you think people are going to all of a sudden use them to commit violent crime?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I'm talking guns in general. Evidently you agree regarding all other categories than automatic?
Actually you were talking about machine guns, not guns in general. Try to focus.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:seems to me that here it is YOU who are refusing to engage, offer evidence, have facts?
I posted a link to federal law regulating guns and ammo; it seems you have yet to read it. The only claim I've made so far other than guns are legal in the USA is that you don't have a clue.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:52 pm

My, my. Quite the sharpshooter. I see I will have to up my game if I want to play at all?

So......... let's look at the prize: Whats your point Ranb? I'll pose it as follows, but feel free to fashion your own.

Gun laws in the USA Today are perfect the way they are, or too lean, or too strict? If not perfect now...how would you make them better?
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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:05 am

The point I was making is that you make up facts and behave like the people here are stupid enough to believe you. What do you hope to gain by using bullcrap instead of evidence to back your claims?

Our gun laws are both too strict and too lax; there is lots of room for improvement.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:19 am

The recent shootings at Las Vegas were using a semiautomatic converted to fully automatic use by a bumpstock. In other words, a machine gun used to mass murder.

I was reading up about a historic case. In 2011, the Democrat congresswoman, Gabrielle Giffords, was shot, with a bullet smashing through the front of her skull, bruising her brain (years of therapy needed for partial recovery) and smashing out through the back of her skull. The assailant had a hand gun of only medium calibre, but with a very big magazine. 33 rounds. Before he finished shooting out all 33 bullets, he killed 6 people, and wounded another 13.

Bobbo previously suggested that a mild and useful form of gun control would be to limit the size of magazines. But it would appear that even such a mild form of gun control is vehemently opposed by the NRA. Sad that sanity cannot prevail.
Last edited by Lance Kennedy on Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:23 am

Ranb wrote: Our gun laws are both too strict and too lax; there is lots of room for improvement.
How would you make them better?
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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:39 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Ranb wrote: Our gun laws are both too strict and too lax; there is lots of room for improvement.
How would you make them better?
Really? Before I waste my time providing anything like an opinion or more data for you I'd like to know more about why you think making up facts and insulting people is the right kind of behavior on the forum.

Tell me why you believe the bizarre claims you've made in this thread?

Did you even look at the link I sent to you? It's very useful. I'm a former gun dealer and frequently meet with lawmakers and appear at committee hearings at the state level to speak about gun control bills.

I make registered NFA firearms as a hobby to enhance my firearm collection; I ensure I'm very familiar with the US code where it comes to guns laws. When people ask me about the law, I try my best to respond in a responsible and respectful fashion. I include links to the laws to that people can read an understand them.

Unfortunately people like you use forums as a relatively anonymous way to spread misinformation and insult anyone who has a difference in opinion. So I have to ask my self, what do I have to gain by carrying on a conversation with a person who has no desire at all to learn about the topic he or she is "debating"? I clearly have nothing to gain by engaging in any further conversation with the likes of you until you explain your actions.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:44 am

Ranb wrote: So I have to ask my self, what do I have to gain by carrying on a conversation with a person who has no desire at all to learn about the topic he or she is "debating"? I clearly have nothing to gain by engaging in any further conversation with the likes of you until you explain your actions.
"I have to up my game." and "How would you make them better?" /// I don't see how that could be anything but a request to learn about the topic. Otherwise.......I accept your assessment.
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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:47 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:The recent shootings at Las Vegas were using a semiautomatic converted to fully automatic use by a bumpstock. In other words, a machine gun used to mass murder.
Not true at all. Bump fire is not the same as full auto unless you are only talking about the noise it makes. I explained this in an earlier post. The police have not released information on what guns were used; so while he probably used a slide fire stock equipped rifle, it is possible he didn't. Bump fire is readily accomplished without a slide fire stock. Do you have access to info that we don't?
Lance Kennedy wrote:I was reading up about a historic case. In 2011, the Democrat congresswoman, Gabrielle Giffords, was shot, with a bullet smashing through the front of her skull, bruising her brain (years of therapy needed for partial recovery) and smashing out through the back of her skull. The assailant had a hand gun of only medium calibre, but with a very big magazine. 33 rounds. Before he finished shooting out all 33 bullets, he killed 6 people, and wounded another 13.
It only takes a few seconds to change a magazine. It's likely the prep could have done the same damage with a single pistol and several ten round magazines. Or he could have used more than one pistol. It takes more than a large magazine to accomplish what he did.
Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo previously suggested that a mild and useful form of gun control would be to limit the size of magazines. But it would appear that even such a mild form of gun control is vehemently opposed by the NRA. Sad that sanity cannot prevail.
I can't really imagine that the two incidents you speak of would have been avoided by a ban on higher capacity magazines. In both cases the person could have made due with lower capacity magazines. Anyone with a hacksaw, duct tape and a bit of skill can make their own higher capacity magazines from magazine parts. The last time magazines of great than ten rounds were banned, it was a ban in name only. The mags were still legally sold the entire ten years they were "banned'

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:56 am

Ranb

Couple of points.

1. The fact that you were a gun dealer essentially disqualifies you as an unbiased source on this topic. It was your living, so you will be biased in a way that does not permit clear cut rational argument.

2. On the Gifford case.
It was changing a magazine that stopped the rampage. After the assailant had fired all 33 bullets, a couple of guys who had avoided being wounded managed to charge him and tackle him to the ground, thus saving many more lives. Had he a small magazine, he would have done much less damage.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:07 am

Bump fire is not the same as full auto unless you are only talking about the noise it makes.
I'll put that down as ....... "biased" as in something more than just inaccurate.
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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Gord » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:08 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:The fact that you were a gun dealer essentially disqualifies you as an unbiased source on this topic.
Oh, everyone's biased. I don't think being biased in one direction rather than another disqualifies anyone from giving their views here.
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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:14 am

The recommended procedure is to IDENTIFY the bias and to protect against it. Often such biased sources are excellent for facts/data "against their own interests." My Bias: I don't like seeing innocent people killed for no commensurate offset. Gun Culture plays into this. If the Police relied less on Guns, there might be less crime................ and so forth.

Identify my bias..........and protect against it.
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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:38 am

Ranb can express his biased views all he likes. We are now forewarned.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:42 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:1. The fact that you were a gun dealer essentially disqualifies you as an unbiased source on this topic.
Why does being a former gun dealer make me biased? I think I've been fairly clear when I presented facts as opposed to my opinions. My experience with the use of firearms far exceeds my experience as a gun dealer.
Lance Kennedy wrote:It was your living, so you will be biased in a way that does not permit clear cut rational argument.
I never claimed I made a living at it. In fact I never made enough money for it to be my sole source of income. I was a an FFL from 1990-1994, the licensed address was my residence like thousands of other dealers in the USA. In fact the BATFE told me when I was inspected in 1991 that I was one of 900 FFL's in Hawaii, Guam and American Samoa they had to inspect.

It seems as if it is you that is too biased to have an opinion on this matter if we're going to be like this.
Lance Kennedy wrote:2. On the Gifford case.
It was changing a magazine that stopped the rampage. After the assailant had fired all 33 bullets, a couple of guys who had avoided being wounded managed to charge him and tackle him to the ground, thus saving many more lives. Had he a small magazine, he would have done much less damage.
That is entirely possible. But if he had several 15 round standard capacity mags (Glock 19) it's possible the shooter might not have fumbled the reload and continued to shoot.

In any case it took lots off guts to confront an armed shooter, unloaded pistol or not. I've confronted an armed trouble maker in the past; I didn't have a gun on me and I hope I'm never in that position again.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:47 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Bump fire is not the same as full auto unless you are only talking about the noise it makes.
I'll put that down as ....... "biased" as in something more than just inaccurate.
Since you have demonstrated an extreme indifference in knowing anything about guns and gun control, perhaps you can tell me the difference between a machine gun, and a semi-auto rifle firing with and without a slide fire stock.

I've explained in detail the difference between these three types of operation. Are you that reluctant to learn anything?

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:48 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Ranb can express his biased views all he likes. We are now forewarned.
Can you quote anything I've said that was inaccurate or overly biased?

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:57 am

Since the gun posts from another thread are being moved here, I'll quote and respond here also.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:My web history did not keep whatever I read but it was something like this:

The Decades-Old Gun Ban That's Still On The Books : It's All Politics ...
https://www.npr.org/sections/.../2013/. ... n-the-book...
Jan 16, 2013 - In 1986, Congress passed a ban on buying and selling machine guns made from then on — with the blessing of none other than the National Rifle Association. Gun law experts say the law was more significant than it seemed at the time.
That link only gives me this;
Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /sections/.../2013/.../the-decades-old-gun-ban-thats-still-on-the-book.. on this server.
What the NPR said is untrue, except for the NRA supporting the bill.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:As I posted emphatically........I don't find discussions about legality regarding what the law "is" when the superseding issue is what the law "should be" and in this case.........Constitutional Law.
So when you're claiming that something is a fact, we should just assume that don't know what you're talking about? Do you really want us to think you're that irrelevant?

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:30 am

I don't know what I'm talking about to the degree that machine guns are legal in the USA. What percentage of precision would you give that?

.......................and what laws would you enact or change?
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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:34 am

Ranb, who asked me to tell him of bias.

The primary bias is that of belief in "guns are good."

As I have pounded my head against many times, with Xouper, I cannot seem to get past the biased people the simple fact that lots of guns mean lots of murders. My country has much better gun control than the USA, and we have 20% of the per capita murder rate. But the best in the world is Japan, and it has the lowest murder rate. Canada is in between and has a murder rate that is also in between. Easy access to guns means lots of murders. Also lots of suicides.

There are places with higher murder rates, but there is generally an easily seen explanation. Like Mexico where there is a vicious war going on between the authorities and the drug dealers. That war leads to a lot of murders.

For a supposedly peaceful nation, the USA has a remarkably high murder rate. Did you know that, during the Viet Nam War, when lots of American soldiers died, the death rate from murder back in the USA was twice as high as the death toll in Viet Nam? Though in theory at peace, the USA has the highest per capita gun ownership, and the highest per capita murder rate in the western world. Guns are not good.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:38 am

What percentage of precision would you give that?
I don't know what you mean when you say this.

1. I'd like to see universal bkgd checks.

2. Make NICS open to anyone who wants access for a gun transfer free of charge instead of being required to pay an FFL to exercise a civil right.

3. Repeal the Hughes amendment on MG's.

4. Eliminate the $200 tax on NFA firearms. I don't like paying a $200 tax to make a silencer that only cost me $20 in material.

5. Require better record keeping for those with mental and legal problems that disqualify them from owning a gun.
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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:42 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Ranb, who asked me to tell him of bias.
Actually I asked you to quote me an example of my bias. You have failed to do this.
Lance Kennedy wrote:The primary bias is that of belief in "guns are good."

As I have pounded my head against many times, with Xouper, ....Guns are not good.
Actually guns are just inanimate machines. I think your post shows your own bias.

Back to me. Show me the bias I've exhibited on this forum.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:50 am

1. What percentage of precision would you give that? /// I don't know what you mean when you say this. IIII Fair comment. I mean I don't think I am 100% wrong to think that machine guns are illegal. As I understand from 90 seconds of reading.........old ones are grandfathered in and new ones can be had after some kind of arduous registration process that the FIRST article I read opined made machines guns practically speaking illegal. Given we don't have any REPORTED use of them........there scant availability for whatever reasons is true. Machine guns basically not available, and death from machines guns non-existent. I wish the same for all guns.

2. I'd like to see universal bkgd checks. /// Agree, meaning close all the loopholes.

3. Make NICS open to anyone who wants access for a gun transfer free of charge instead of being required to pay an FFL to exercise a civil right. //// Why should the general tax payer pay for the support of a luxury item? Fees to track ownership exist across all kinds of property....why should guns be an exception? YES: I want to jack up the fees to discourage the ownership and thereafter the use of guns. Its the "legal" way to get her done.

4. Repeal the Hughes amendment on MG's. //// don't want to look it up.

5. Eliminate the $200 tax on NFA firearms. I don't like paying a $200 tax to make a silencer that only cost me $20 in material. //// cost to make and tax are unrelated. Different issues.

6. Require better record keeping for those with mental and legal problems that disqualify them from owning a gun.//// Agreed. And record sharing...ie, one of the best anti-crime weapons the police have is connected computers and data reporting.

Thank you.

Can you confirm?===>the only similarity between a bumpstocked semi-auto and a fully automatic gun is the noise they make?
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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:57 am

Actually, I do have to admit fault here with Ranb. He has not been showing bias. I am somewhat suspicious of his tone, which appears to be pro gun, but he has not come out with statements that I can really be at odds with. My apologies. Mea culpa.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:14 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Actually, I do have to admit fault here with Ranb. He has not been showing bias. I am somewhat suspicious of his tone, which appears to be pro gun, but he has not come out with statements that I can really be at odds with. My apologies. Mea culpa.
Let me fix that for you: "Actually, I do have to admit MY fault here with Ranb." /// I would have held off making that admission against your own interests. You facing indictment, or what?
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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:16 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:.... As I understand from 90 seconds of reading.........old ones are grandfathered in and new ones can be had after some kind of arduous registration process that the FIRST article I read opined made machines guns practically speaking illegal. Given we don't have any REPORTED use of them........there scant availability for whatever reasons is true. Machine guns basically not available, and death from machines guns non-existent.
Not that arduous. Filling out a tax stamp application is easier than the 1040EZ and the FFL application is easier than the 1040A.

You can buy MG's here; http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/?db= ... ssion_key= and here; http://www.gunbroker.com/Machine-Guns/search
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:2. I'd like to see universal bkgd checks. /// Agree, meaning close all the loopholes.
There are no loopholes. Historically private sales have always been legal, even for machine guns. When congress passed legislation to require bkgd chcks for title 1 guns (non-NFA) they specifically limited bkgd checks only for those sales by FFL's. Unlicensed persons like me were prohibited access. Therefore not a loophole unless your definition of a loophole is something strange.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Why should the general tax payer pay for the support of a luxury item? Fees to track ownership exist across all kinds of property....why should guns be an exception? YES: I want to jack up the fees to discourage the ownership and thereafter the use of guns. Its the "legal" way to get her done.
It is a civil right protected by the Constitution. Until it is amended, the law should be obeyed.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:4. Repeal the Hughes amendment on MG's. //// don't want to look it up.
I already explained it; you do read my posts right? Or am I wasting my time explaining things here? The Hughes amendment prohibited new registration of MG's to unlicensed person.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:5. Eliminate the $200 tax on NFA firearms. I don't like paying a $200 tax to make a silencer that only cost me $20 in material. //// cost to make and tax are unrelated. Different issues.
It was a backdoor means of banning guns. Back in 1934 a $200 tax was like $3500 today. You really have a problem with a rifle that has a 15" barrel, a shotgun with a 17" barrel, a smooth bore pistol, or a gun muffler that reduces the roar of a gun to 110-140 decibels?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Can you confirm?===>the only similarity between a bumpstocked semi-auto and a fully automatic gun is the noise they make?
I didn't use those exact words. But knowing that a bump fired semi-auto can't be held firmly like a MG which leads to accuracy problems, it sure as hell isn't exactly like a MG. Bump fire is less reliable and prone to stoppages. Anyone who has fired this way knows this. What personal experience do you have with these guns.
Last edited by Ranb on Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:23 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Actually, I do have to admit fault here with Ranb. He has not been showing bias. I am somewhat suspicious of his tone, which appears to be pro gun, but he has not come out with statements that I can really be at odds with. My apologies. Mea culpa.
Thanks.

So what is "pro-gun"? I own guns. I make and modify firearms for my collection. I train people to use them and volunteer my time as a range safety officer at the local range. I train people (mostly kids) in precision air rifle and small bore Olympic style shooting. I occasionally hunt.

I joined the NRA so that I could gain access to a club and shoot. I don't like going into the woods to shoot. I'd rather be at a gun range and shoot into a berm to reduce the chance of a stray bullet injuring or damaging property. I think the NRA sucks. I don't agree with their take on gun laws and they seem to have a "screw the non-whites" mentality when it comes to victims of shootings.

My avatar is a pic of me shooting a Feinwerkbau 300S in the kneeling position at a 10--meter target. The 300S with its single stroke recoilless action was state of the art for air rifles in the 1970's. It has since been overtaken by single stroke pneumatic air rifles and pre-charged pneumatic air rifles which are more accurate and less fatiguing (the PCP's) to use. Since the 300S only costs about $300-$600 they're useful for training people to compete; when the shooter becomes skillful and wants to be more competitive, they'll buy a better 800x or 9002 air rifle.

The 10- meter target has a bullseye that is only .5 millimeters wide. Girls typically outperform boys/men. At the 2016 Olympics, 19 yer old Ginny Thrasher took the gold. Had the men competed along side the women, the top male shooter would have had to settle for a bronze medal. :)
Last edited by Ranb on Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:45 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by xouper » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:27 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:. . . Guns are not good.
Now that you've explicitly admitted to your own bias (which some of us have known about for years), let's revisit your earlier comment:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Ranb

Couple of points.

1. The fact that you were a gun dealer essentially disqualifies you as an unbiased source on this topic. It was your living, so you will be biased in a way that does not permit clear cut rational argument.
That last part is worth repeating: You seem to be saying that those with a bias are incapable of "clear cut rational argument".

Thanks for the giggle. That's amusing one more than one level.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by xouper » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:32 am

Ranb wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: . . .
. . . am I wasting my time explaining things here?
Yes and no.

It's wasted on bobbo, for sure, but I am interested to hear what you have to say on this topic. Perhaps others in the peanut gallery are too.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:40 am

It would appear that I was wrong about Ranb. Especially when he says he disagrees with the NRA on their take on gun laws.

To answer the question, what is pro gun?
Pro gun would be to support total access to gun ownership, which is pretty much what the NRA advocate.

My own position is pro gun control. Guns kill. Over 10,000 gun murders each year in the USA and perhaps 20,000 gun suicides. Excluding suicide, about 100,000 people are shot each year in the USA, which works out to 1 person in 50 at some stage in their life having a bullet pass through them, wounding, maiming, or killing them. Nations with stronger gun control do not have these shocking statistics, and the stronger the gun control, the fewer the harms from guns. I admire the Japanese approach, which is the most effective of all.

So pro gun is really the same as anti gun control.

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:48 am

1. Its arduous if practically no one is doing it. I mean.......why buy a bumpstock with all its problems if you can buy a MG? Your position is not reflected by common experience, whereas the summary I gave is.


2. Universal means without exception. When senile Daddy can give his gun to psycho Sonny "legally" THAT is a loophole that should be closed. Same with whatever other loopholes are out there. Its Common sense and Language vs "The Law" usually written specifically to fool people.

3. Yes gun ownership is protect by the Constution and the law should be obeyed. Thats why the law can be amended to allow for fees and what not. Freeedom is not Free. You have to buy the gun, the bullets......should buy General Liability Insurance too...........as allowed by Const and by Law.

4. Hughes law. I'm sure it starts as you say, but the devil is in the details I don't wish to research. But yes..... there is no good reason to discuss the details of MG that practically don't exist.

5. Yes, many fee arrangements are expressly to prohibit an activity often called "Sin Tax." Nothing new here so why try to equate them? My problem is: guns should be banned with whatever minor exception are thought required....special police and whatnot.

6. Exact words. Indeed. //// No personal experience. I would enjoy it, my B-B gun was fun, froze my ass off Deer Hunting with a Moser. I see the appeal, but lots of fun things are illegal....like Red Eared Slider Turtles less than 4 inches long. Turtles have no constitutional rights.
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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:51 am

X===I feel besmearched. But I'll man up and take it without whining..... besides the whining necessary to note I'm not whining.
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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:54 am

The views of the NRA have changed a lot in the last several decades. They supported then governor Ronald Reagan when he pushed for additional gun control in California; it seems people didn't want blacks carrying guns (it was entirely legal) to defend themselves from the racist establishment. Gun control has had a typically racist past. It has only been recently that this attitude has started to ease somewhat; still have a long ways to go.

The NRA of today is more about eliminating some controls. But for the most part it's lip service. They don't really care about the controls on NFA firearms. I wasn't able to count on them at all when it came to supporting a state level silencer use bill in WA state back in 2011. Even the police were not allowed to use silencers in WA until 2011. It wasn't until the Democrats took over sponsorship of the silencer use bill and the police showed up at the committee hearings that the bill was passed into law. The Republicans let the bill die year after year. Same for short barreled rifles.

I'd like to see silencers controlled in the USA more like they are in the UK and NZ. They are not considered to be firearms there; so very few restrictions at all. As far as I know in 1934 the inclusion of silencers in the NFA was to keep poor people from poaching wild game. Can;t have poor people helping themselves to a meal right?

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:05 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:1. Its arduous if practically no one is doing it. I mean.......why buy a bumpstock with all its problems if you can buy a MG? Your position is not reflected by common experience, whereas the summary I gave is.
Not arduous; it's actually just expensive. I'm not about to pay $20k for an M-16 when I can have a better AR-15 for <$1000. If I really need full auto, I'll obtain a license and make an auto sear for $1. If I don't care about it being legal, I'll simply modify my Ar-15 to shoot full auto. Again, not arduous at all.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:2. Universal means without exception. When senile Daddy can give his gun to psycho Sonny "legally" THAT is a loophole that should be closed. Same with whatever other loopholes are out there. Its Common sense and Language vs "The Law" usually written specifically to fool people.
It's a good bet you have no idea what the law says about when a bkgd check is required. If you simply read the law I don't think you would call it a loophole. A loophole is defined as "an ambiguity or inadequacy in the law or a set of rules." The law was written specifically to apply ONLY to dealers. You can say we need another law. but don't call the current right to buy in a private sale or a gift a loophole because it isn't one no matter how often you hear some ignoramus claim it is.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:4. Hughes law. I'm sure it starts as you say, but the devil is in the details I don't wish to research. But yes..... there is no good reason to discuss the details of MG that practically don't exist.
So the ads and auctions I linked to don't exist?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:5. Yes, many fee arrangements are expressly to prohibit an activity often called "Sin Tax." Nothing new here so why try to equate them? My problem is: guns should be banned with whatever minor exception are thought required....special police and whatnot.
Can you name any examples of a sin tax applied to an item whose possession is protected by law or a tax that can far exceed the value of the item?

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Re: Guns and false dichotomies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:28 am

1. The definition of arduous was contextualized as "no one is doing it." The fact that you can do it says nothing about the process. Just as my own inability to do it does not make it impossible. Over personalizing any topic only misleads.

2. Again.......what do the legalities of current law have to do when the discussion is what the law SHOULD BE? Once again...the issue was whether or not background checks should be UNIVERSAL. etc. Not about legalities of background checks.

3. Cigarettes---last time I looked, I found it shocking. Booze is too high...compared. Lots of non-Sin taxes do the same as well....lots of imported items. The limit is not the comparison of inherent value to the tax but rather the amount of tax/revenue generated compared to the creation of a black market for the same item.

I think you missed more than hit. The Why........in my view, very much just a variant of what X has to say on topic. No thanks.
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