How Guns could be outlawed in USA

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:35 am

Pinocchio.jpg
Mass Shootings / France and USA / Compare and contrast.

The 2015 Paris Terrorist Attack
Weapons : Bombs / Suicide vests / Hand grenades / Illegal Fully automatic assault rifles.
Perpetrators : Nine ISIL trained terrorists / Planned in Syria / Three terrorists Cells or three plus support.


Killed by gunfire :
Rues Bichat and Alibert (15 people / 3 shooters)
Rue de la Fontaine-au-Roi ( 5 people / 3 shooters)
Rue de Charonne (19 people / 3 shooters)
Bataclan theatre (89 people / 3 shooters)
Perpetrators killed by suicide or police.


Automatic weapons banned in France. Semi automatic restricted to gun clubs requiring licence to transport..
Gun shot casualties per 100,000 in France = 0.21


The USA Los Vegas Shooting
Weapons : Legal Semi Automatic enhanced with Legal Bump Stop to mimic automatic fire/\.
Perpetrators : One civilian


Killed by gunfire :
At Concert ( 58 people)
Perpetrator : suicide when confronted by police.


Semi automatic and bump stock "fully automatic" enhancements are legal.
Gun shot casualties per 100,000 in USA = 3.60

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


In France the nine trained terrorists trained with mixed weapons and used illegal imported automatic assault guns.
In the USA one civilian used legal semi-automatics enhanced with legal bump stops.


In both cases the police either killed the perpetrators or they committed suicide when approached by police. Armed civilians didn't stop either shooting.

Dismiss : Citizens armed with semi-automatic rifles prevent mass shootings
Can you give me some examples of USA citizens stopping a mass shooting with a legal semi automatic rifle? If you can't find any examples, then why does anyone need them?


Dismiss : Automatics and Semi automatics can be illegal anyway, so why ban them?
Can you explain why it should be easier for civilians to obtain semi automatics and bump stop enhancements in the USA whereas in the rest of the world terrorists have to smuggle in the same weapons?


Europe consideration to reduce gun casualties by 2017 law.
An EU directive December 2016 introduces tighter restrictions on the ownership of semi-automatic weapons and introduces traceable firearms laws. (Gun Control)

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-4464_fr.htm
Are you still claiming that the "rest of us" are not considering methods to reduce gun casualties, including France and Germany?
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:58 am

Mathew Ellard wrote:The rest of us ( non-USA) don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote:And how well has that been working out for Europe?
Matthew Ellard wrote:Really well. When was their last mass shooting using modified automatic weapons? :lol:
xouper wrote:November 2015, Paris France, where they used Russian AKM fully automatic assault rifles. You can now wipe that silly grin off your face, Matthew.
Matthew Ellard wrote:Gun shot casualties per 100,000 in France = 0.21
Gun shot casualties per 100,000 in USA = 3.60
If those are numbers for mass shootings, they seem to be backwards.

Image

Mass shooting deaths per 100,000 in France: 3.47
Mass shooting deaths per 100,000 in the US: 0.89

Even if we add the Las Vegas shooting, the US is still not anywhere near France.

Secondly, you agree that the November Paris shootings were done with illegal  weapons, which means that their gun control was not effective in stopping it. Nor would any of the proposed new restrictions have prevented it.

That fact shows clearly they are still having problems preventing gun casualties from mass shootings.

Matthew Ellard wrote:Dismiss : Citizens armed with semi-automatic rifles prevent mass shootings
Can you give me some examples of USA citizens stopping a mass shooting with a legal semi automatic rifle? If you can't find any examples, then why does anyone need them?
Not relevant. In the US, it is not required to justify owning a semi-automatic rifle. As a general principle, a free society does not require anyone to show "need" as a prerequisite to owning something.

As for why anyone would want an AR-15 type rifle, they are quite popular for sport shooting and hunting, and for defending against home invaders (cite).

In the US there are literally millions of semi-automatic rifles, and yet the number of deaths from rifles of any kind are a tiny fraction of total gun homicides.

Matthew Ellard wrote:Dismiss : Automatics and Semi automatics can be illegal anyway, so why ban them?
Can you explain why it should be easier for civilians to obtain semi automatics and bump stop enhancements in the USA whereas in the rest of the world terrorists have to smuggle in the same weapons?
The Second Amendment of the US Constitution explains why. The right of the people to own and carry arms shall not be infringed. That explanation has been upheld by the US Supreme Court more than once.

Matthew Ellard wrote:Europe consideration to reduce gun casualties by 2017 law.
An EU directive December 2016 introduces tighter restrictions on the ownership of semi-automatic weapons and introduces traceable firearms laws. (Gun Control)
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-4464_fr.htm
Are you still claiming that the "rest of us" are not considering methods to reduce gun casualties, including France and Germany?
I will accept your point that they are trying to do something.

I will not accept your assertion that they are not having some of the same problems the US is having.

Will these new restrictions be effective in stopping mass shootings?

I'll let Yogi Berra answer that: "It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."

It is still a fact that more and more Europeans are tired of being defenseless victims and are buying more and more defensive weapons, and are also increasingly demanding their gun rights.

So I do not accept your (implied) assertion that Europeans are all happy about having their gun rights infringed.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:22 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:In the USA one civilian used legal semi-automatics enhanced with legal bump stops.
In case Gord is not doing his usual job of finding spelling errors, I'll fill in for him temporarily.

That should be "bump stock" not "bump stop". Which is actually short for "bump fire stock".

See for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_fire

Here's a nice short video that shows what they are and how they work:



Secondly, a bump stock is not required to simulate automatic fire. With a little practice you can learn to bump fire without any modifications to the gun whatsoever.

Thirdly, the bump stock does not convert the gun to fully automatic. The gun still only fires one round per trigger pull. What bump fire means, is that you pull the trigger really fast, using the recoil to help your finger do that.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:58 am

xouper wrote: Thirdly, the bump stock does not convert the gun to fully automatic. The gun still only fires one round per trigger pull. What bump fire means, is that you pull the trigger really fast, using the recoil to help your finger do that.

difference without distinction.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:06 am

"difference without distinction." //// an excellent foundational element in critical thinking. Missed by too many geniuses.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:12 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:Thirdly, the bump stock does not convert the gun to fully automatic. The gun still only fires one round per trigger pull. What bump fire means, is that you pull the trigger really fast, using the recoil to help your finger do that.
difference without distinction.
Seems you don't fully comprehend the difference.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:28 am

xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:Thirdly, the bump stock does not convert the gun to fully automatic. The gun still only fires one round per trigger pull. What bump fire means, is that you pull the trigger really fast, using the recoil to help your finger do that.
difference without distinction.
Seems you don't fully comprehend the difference.
I do - which is why I acknowledge that there is one.
And it doesn't matter, hence no distinction.

Seems you don't comprehend the expression.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:43 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:Thirdly, the bump stock does not convert the gun to fully automatic. The gun still only fires one round per trigger pull. What bump fire means, is that you pull the trigger really fast, using the recoil to help your finger do that.
difference without distinction.
Seems you don't fully comprehend the difference.
I do - which is why I acknowledge that there is one.
And it doesn't matter, hence no distinction.
Translation: It doesn't matter to you.

Hence my comment that you don't seem to understand why it matters to others.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:54 am

xouper wrote:
Translation: It doesn't matter to you.

Hence my comment that you don't seem to understand why it matters to others.
It doesn't matter TO THE PEOPLE GETTING SHOT, you [insert strong expletive here].

WTF does it matter what difference it makes to you or me?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:43 am

ElectricMonk wrote:It doesn't matter TO THE PEOPLE GETTING SHOT, . . .
OK, yes, I agree, it doesn't matter to the people getting shot.

Why didn't you say so in the first place?

In that case, there are lots of differences that don't matter to the people getting shot, not just how fast the trigger can be pulled.

If you have an actual point to make, then how about saying it instead of making me guess?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:03 pm

Like personal rights, X is of the opinion that LABELS are the most important element of consideration.

Not what is in fact the case: WHAT HAPPENS. The reality, nuts and bolts, cause and effect...............the PRAGMATIC outcome.

So...in his mind automatic is different than a semi-auto which is different from a bump stock with is different from a trained and practiced trigger man. How many people can get killed in 30 seconds isn't in the definitions at use...so the reality of innocent deaths doesn't matter to him and those of his gun nutter ilk.

Another: difference without a distinction.

........and I would take it a step farther: Killed by auto, semi, bump, training.............. or a single shooter, bolt action, one at a time weapon. They are all the same: not rational in a sane society.

But what is sanity to X? He has his rights, which are inalienable, which are whatever he wants. He is miserably correct about the most important anomaly at work here: The Supremes do swing that way as well. But reality will swing back ...... towards.... reality and pragmatism. What works and what doesn't work.

its taken too long already, but thats a reality too. Whole lot of X's out there.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:04 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Gun shot casualties per 100,000 in France = 0.21
Gun shot casualties per 100,000 in USA = 3.60
xouper wrote:If those are numbers for mass shootings, they seem to be backwards.
That's because I didn't write "mass shootings" as you sloppily attempted to switch in there.

Let me make it easier for you. "Firearms death per year per 100,000
United States 10.54 (2010)
France 2.8 (2010)

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gu ... countries/

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:20 pm

EU Ruling : Firearms: Agreement on Commission proposal to increase citizens' security (DEC2017)
"After a year of discussions, the European Parliament and Council have reached a provisional political agreement on the Firearms Directive."
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-4464_en.htm
xouper wrote: Will these new restrictions be effective in stopping mass shootings?
Yes. French civilians can't remove their semi-automatics from the registered range without prior notification and go shoot people. That's the entire point. It a further preventative restriction.

Can you name any French Citizen who has done this with a semi automatic?

Will these new laws make it easier or harder for citizens to do so in the future?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:30 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Gun shot casualties per 100,000 in France = 0.21
Gun shot casualties per 100,000 in USA = 3.60
xouper wrote:If those are numbers for mass shootings, they seem to be backwards.
Matthew Ellard wrote:That's because I didn't write "mass shootings" as you sloppily attempted to switch in there.
The context was mass shootings, and when you posted those numbers, you mixed them in with the discussion about mass shootings  without bothering to point out that those two numbers were not  for mass shootings. That certainly looks like it was intentionally deceptive.

Matthew Ellard wrote:EU Ruling : Firearms: Agreement on Commission proposal to increase citizens' security (DEC2017)
"After a year of discussions, the European Parliament and Council have reached a provisional political agreement on the Firearms Directive."
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-4464_en.htm
xouper wrote: Will these new restrictions be effective in stopping mass shootings?
Matthew Ellard wrote: Yes.
How can you possibly know that? Do you have a crystal ball or something that enables you to see the future? Making something more difficult is not the same as preventing it, as I asked.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:32 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Like personal rights, X is of the opinion that LABELS are the most important element of consideration.

Not what is in fact the case: WHAT HAPPENS. The reality, nuts and bolts, cause and effect...............the PRAGMATIC outcome.

So...in his mind automatic is different than a semi-auto which is different from a bump stock with is different from a trained and practiced trigger man. How many people can get killed in 30 seconds isn't in the definitions at use...so the reality of innocent deaths doesn't matter to him and those of his gun nutter ilk.

Another: difference without a distinction.

........and I would take it a step farther: Killed by auto, semi, bump, training.............. or a single shooter, bolt action, one at a time weapon. They are all the same: not rational in a sane society.

But what is sanity to X? He has his rights, which are inalienable, which are whatever he wants. He is miserably correct about the most important anomaly at work here: The Supremes do swing that way as well. But reality will swing back ...... towards.... reality and pragmatism. What works and what doesn't work.

its taken too long already, but thats a reality too. Whole lot of X's out there.
Image

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:54 am

For the record, quoted below is Matthew's post that shows that he is talking about mass shootings  and then inserted numbers for all shootings  (which I highlighted in yellow for easy visibility) without telling us that those numbers were not for mass shootings.
Matthew Ellard wrote:Mass Shootings / France and USA / Compare and contrast.

The 2015 Paris Terrorist Attack
Weapons : Bombs / Suicide vests / Hand grenades / Illegal Fully automatic assault rifles.
Perpetrators : Nine ISIL trained terrorists / Planned in Syria / Three terrorists Cells or three plus support.


Killed by gunfire :
Rues Bichat and Alibert (15 people / 3 shooters)
Rue de la Fontaine-au-Roi ( 5 people / 3 shooters)
Rue de Charonne (19 people / 3 shooters)
Bataclan theatre (89 people / 3 shooters)
Perpetrators killed by suicide or police.


Automatic weapons banned in France. Semi automatic restricted to gun clubs requiring licence to transport..
Gun shot casualties per 100,000 in France = 0.21


The USA Los Vegas Shooting
Weapons : Legal Semi Automatic enhanced with Legal Bump Stop to mimic automatic fire/\.
Perpetrators : One civilian


Killed by gunfire :
At Concert ( 58 people)
Perpetrator : suicide when confronted by police.


Semi automatic and bump stock "fully automatic" enhancements are legal.
Gun shot casualties per 100,000 in USA = 3.60

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


In France the nine trained terrorists trained with mixed weapons and used illegal imported automatic assault guns.
In the USA one civilian used legal semi-automatics enhanced with legal bump stops.


In both cases the police either killed the perpetrators or they committed suicide when approached by police. Armed civilians didn't stop either shooting.

Dismiss : Citizens armed with semi-automatic rifles prevent mass shootings
Can you give me some examples of USA citizens stopping a mass shooting with a legal semi automatic rifle? If you can't find any examples, then why does anyone need them?
The entire post above is about mass shootings, except for the two lines in yellow.

And then when Matthew gets called on that error, he has the nerve to falsely accuse me  of pulling the switcheroo.

For the record, those numbers in yellow are not for the incidents immediately preceding them, but where is the disclaimer that they have nothing to do with those incidents?

That looks deceptive to me. Was it intentional? Let the jury decide.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:55 am

EU Ruling : Firearms: Agreement on Commission proposal to increase citizens' security (DEC2017)
"After a year of discussions, the European Parliament and Council have reached a provisional political agreement on the Firearms Directive."
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-4464_en.htm
xouper wrote: Will these new restrictions be effective in stopping mass shootings?
Matthew Ellard wrote: Yes. Will these new laws make it easier or harder for citizens to do so in the future?
xouper wrote:How can you possibly know that?
Well if it's harder to move your gun from the registered range it's going to make it harder to shoot people isn't it? :lol:

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:59 am

xouper wrote: The entire post above is about mass shootings, except for the two lines in yellow.
Firstly, the thread title is "How Guns could be outlawed in USA". Where does it say "mass shootings"?

Secondly, I wrote in clear language gun casualties and not mass shooting casualties.

Try harder next time.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:11 am

gun control is about preventing deaths by guns.

France does it better than the US.


There is nothing to argue here.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:21 am

12. Terrorists don't own guns legally, so won't this burdensome regulation be useless in the fight against terrorism or organised crime?
The Commission proposal to revise the Firearms Directive is based on the report on the implementation of the Firearms Directive and three preparatory studies[1]. They show that the risks linked to legal firearms are not limited to terrorism. Over the last decade, 10 000 homicides have been committed in Europe with firearms, and in many cases with legal firearms. The report also highlights the risk of conversion of alarm weapons and the fact that certain semi-automatic firearms are particularly dangerous and can be transformed into automatic firearms.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_ME ... 465_en.htm

In essence, the European Union is being pro-active in performing research and then implementing that research to reduce gun casualties and protect its citizens from harm.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:24 am

ElectricMonk wrote: France does it better than the US.
When I was a kid in Paris in the 70s, the antique shop across the road was selling WWII German MP40 machine guns. :D

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:24 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:EU Ruling : Firearms: Agreement on Commission proposal to increase citizens' security (DEC2017)
"After a year of discussions, the European Parliament and Council have reached a provisional political agreement on the Firearms Directive."
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-4464_en.htm
xouper wrote: Will these new restrictions be effective in stopping mass shootings?
Matthew Ellard wrote: Yes. Will these new laws make it easier or harder for citizens to do so in the future?
xouper wrote:How can you possibly know that?
Matthew Ellard wrote:Well if it's harder to move your gun from the registered range it's going to make it harder to shoot people isn't it? :lol:
Let the record show that Matthew has once again quoted me out of context to make it look like I was answering something else.

That is totally dishonest and unethical, especially for someone who claims to be a lawyer.

This what I actually posted: (here)
xouper wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:EU Ruling : Firearms: Agreement on Commission proposal to increase citizens' security (DEC2017)
"After a year of discussions, the European Parliament and Council have reached a provisional political agreement on the Firearms Directive."
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-4464_en.htm
xouper wrote: Will these new restrictions be effective in stopping mass shootings?
Matthew Ellard wrote: Yes.
How can you possibly know that? Do you have a crystal ball or something that enables you to see the future? Making something more difficult is not the same as preventing it, as I asked.
Notice that my answer is in direct response to Matthew's answer "Yes". Nothing more, nothing less.

And yet Matthew quoted my answer out of context to make it look like I was answering a different question: "Will these new laws make it easier or harder for citizens to do so in the future?"

My reply was not to that question.

That is dishonest and unethical. Once again, Matthew has been caught misrepresenting the truth.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:31 am

ElectricMonk wrote:gun control is about preventing deaths by guns.

France does it better than the US.

There is nothing to argue here.
In the past century or so, France has always had fewer gun casualties per capita than the US, and it's not because of gun control.

Furthermore, the US has had fewer gun casualties from mass shootings in the past few years. Gun control in France has not been effective in prevented that.

Thirdly, gun control in France has resulted in more people being defenseless victims. Many Europeans do not see that as a positive outcome, and certainly nothing to brag about.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:32 am

xouper wrote: Let the record show that Matthew has once again .......
added back the question that Xouper removed to avoid answering it. :lol:

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:36 am

X=========amassing the largest cherry orchard in recorded history. Giving Steel and Parkinson a run for their money.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:39 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:In essence, the European Union is being pro-active in performing research and then implementing that research to reduce gun casualties and protect its citizens from harm.
I agree that research is a good thing, and that reducing gun casualties is a good thing, but that is not the same as protecting its citizens from all harm.

When gun control causes more citizens to be defenseless victims of other violent crimes, especially when that other kind of violent crime is on the rise throughout Europe, then it seems clear that the citizens are NOT  being fully protected from harm.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:41 am

xouper wrote: Furthermore, the US has had fewer gun casualties from mass shootings in the past few years. Gun control in France has not been effective in prevented that.
What is the number of gun casualties per 100,000 in France
What is the the number of gun casualties per 100,000 in the USA for the same year?

How on Earth can you claim the French are not more effective at reducing gun casualties than the USA?
:lol:

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:42 am

X==================amassing the largest collection of equivocations compared to absolutes.

.......aka: a loon.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:42 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
xouper wrote: Let the record show that Matthew has once again .......
added back the question that Xouper removed to avoid answering it. :lol:
That does not excuse you from dishonestly quoting me out of context to make it look like I my answer applies to a question I did not address.

You are correct that I did not answer all your questions. So what. You don't answer all my questions. Stalemate.

That still does not excuse your dishonest and unethical behavior here, Matthew.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:45 am

xouper wrote: When gun control causes more citizens to be defenseless victims of other violent crimes, especially when that other kind of violent crime is on the rise throughout Europe, then it seems clear that the citizens are NOT  being fully protected from harm.
Quote me statistics comparing and contrasting the USA and France casualties "for all violent crimes". Who has the higher percentage rate of casualties from all violent crimes? France or the USA? :lol:

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:47 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X==================.......aka: a loon.
Someone has to fill the gap left by Venerable Kwan Tom Woo since he got doxed in Charlottesville and left all forums. :lol:

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:47 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: How on Earth can you claim the French are not more effective at reducing gun casualties than the USA? [/color] :lol:
X runs the stats through his Equivocation Machine: The French have lower death from gun rates but it is not zero... so they need more guns.

Is this absolutely logically spasmodic and INSANE? ............... Yes.

Is that X? ................................. Yes.

But, he has the Supremes on this side, so the insanity will continue. Of note: even the Supremes don't argue as X does. They just blame the Constitution. ............... and they are probably correct in that reading. Whats needed is constitutional reform........... potentially as dangerous as a loaded gun.......... as it is always pointed right at our heads.

Let me predict the future:............................. someone is disagreeing with me: Ergo: TROLL ALERT.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:47 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
xouper wrote: Furthermore, the US has had fewer gun casualties from mass shootings in the past few years. Gun control in France has not been effective in prevented that.
Matthew Ellard wrote:What is the number of gun casualties per 100,000 in France
What is the the number of gun casualties per 100,000 in the USA for the same year?

How on Earth can you claim the French are not more effective at reducing gun casualties than the USA? :lol:
Straw Man Alert!!

I did NOT  claim the France was not effective in reducing gun casualties.

What I said was that France has not been effective in reducing mas shooting casualties.

Not the same thing, and any lawyer worth his diploma should be smart enough to know that.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:50 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: How on Earth can you claim the French are not more effective at reducing gun casualties than the USA? [/color] :lol:
X runs the stats through his Equivocation Machine: The French have lower death from gun rates but it is not zero... so they need more guns.

Is this absolutely logically spasmodic and INSANE? ............... Yes.

Is that X? ................................. Yes.

But, he has the Supremes on this side, so the insanity will continue. Of note: even the Supremes don't argue as X does. They just blame the Constitution. ............... and they are probably correct in that reading. Whats needed is constitutional reform........... potentially as dangerous as a loaded gun.......... as it is always pointed right at our heads.

Let me predict the future:............................. someone is disagreeing with me: Ergo: TROLL ALERT.
When you stop trolling, I will stop posting the alerts.

But for now, this is still appropriate:

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:52 am

xouper wrote:What I said was that France has not been effective in reducing mas shooting casualties.
New law introduced by EU in 2016. France has no mass shootings after that date.

USA makes no changes and some civilian just shot 58 people using a legal semi-automatic with a legal bump stop.
:lol:
Last edited by Matthew Ellard on Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:54 am

There are bridges. There are trolls. Most bridges do not have trolls. Most claims of trolling are false.

Like you X. Living under a bridge. Its just avoiding the issues and name calling. Part of your Kettle that you nominally complain about...........but I NEVER call anyone a troll.

Can you imagine why?
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:18 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:There are bridges. There are trolls. Most bridges do not have trolls. Most claims of trolling are false.

Like you X. Living under a bridge. Its just avoiding the issues and name calling. Part of your Kettle that you nominally complain about...........but I NEVER call anyone a troll.

Can you imagine why?
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:28 am

xouper wrote:What I said was that France has not been effective in reducing mas shooting casualties.
Matthew Ellard wrote:New law introduced by EU in 2016. France has no mass shootings after that date.
Until the next mass shooting in France.

Matthew Ellard wrote:USA makes no changes and some civilian just shot 58 people using a legal semi-automatic with a legal bump stop. :lol:
Don't let Gord see that you've made the same spelling error after having been corrected once.

That's bump stock. Not "stop". Makes me wonder if you even know what it is.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:37 am

X===>until deaths from guns is Zero, we need more guns.

.....................and this is not the statement from a troll because: ................?

Note: to keep my track record pure, I pose this question to challenge X's use of the term. I don't use it because it is deflection and avoidance. aka: even if a troll by whatever definition is used, valid issues can still be raised.

So..............address the issues, not the fact that a question shows your pants are on the ground revealing a multitude of embarrassing short falls and disfigurements.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:39 am

Mass shooting are virtually NEVER stopped by a"good guy with a gun" - so claiming that people need access to guns to protect themselves is empirically wrong.