How Guns could be outlawed in USA

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:38 pm

Your arguments are like any nut: post the pros...............IGNORE THE CONS. IE: unbalanced.

Reminds me of the seat belt dispute and the interference with your RIGHT to drive those murderous cars as you wish without being required to be restrained. They would post stories as you do about people who are thrown clear of the car in an accident thereby surviving where with a seat belt they would have perished.

What is your position on your right to not buckle in?
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:16 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Your arguments are like any nut: post the pros...............IGNORE THE CONS. IE: unbalanced.
The cons have already been posted by others. I don't need to repost them.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:25 am

xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Your arguments are like any nut: post the pros...............IGNORE THE CONS. IE: unbalanced.
The cons have already been posted by others. I don't need to repost them.
Thats correct what you NEED to do, and fail to do, and WON'T do, is INCORPORATE these realities into your fuller appreciation of the issues involved. ie: NOT JUST YOU.

What a concept.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:37 am

:roll:

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:26 am

You can't tell the difference between posting a con vs dealing with the con?

Oops........thats right. Your pleasure in owning a gun is WORTH 30K people per year being killed. So.... your position is not analytical but rather self centered and demanding.

What do you think of people, like me, who think your position is ....................... retro?
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:33 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Oops........thats right. Your pleasure in owning a gun is WORTH 30K people per year being killed.
You do the same for cars, so don't lecture me about morality.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:37 am

xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Oops........thats right. Your pleasure in owning a gun is WORTH 30K people per year being killed.
You do the same for cars, so don't lecture me about morality.
Exactly so. and as stated 50 times: the majority of people do NOT agree guns are worth the damage while the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY agree that cars ARE WORTH the damage.

You keep posting there is no difference. Kinda transparently stupid.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:11 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Oops........thats right. Your pleasure in owning a gun is WORTH 30K people per year being killed.
You do the same for cars, so don't lecture me about morality.
Exactly so. and as stated 50 times: the majority of people do NOT agree guns are worth the damage while the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY agree that cars ARE WORTH the damage.
"The number of people who believe a claim is irrelevant to its truth."

If you are arguing that one opinion is better than the other merely because of how many vote for it, then that is the fallacy called argumentum ad populum.

Also, the key thing that makes guns different from cars is that the right to be armed is a right, not a privilege.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:06 am

1. "The number of people who believe a claim is irrelevant to its truth." /// But completely relevant as to what social policy should be.

2. Also, the key thing that makes guns different from cars is that the right to be armed is a right, not a privilege. //// Correct...hence the very purpose of this OP: to take your right away..... and treat your fetish like a car.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:10 am

It's a question of opinion, not truth.
It's no question which side of the issue is more dogmatic and therefore almost certainly wrong.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:13 am

ElectricMonk wrote:It's a question of opinion, not truth.
It's no question which side of the issue is more dogmatic and therefore almost certainly wrong.
truthiness has a righty/wrongy feel to it.................dogmatic in all cases.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:17 am

Xouper thinks the universe has given humans the right to use weapons for self-defense, and that this right trumps everything else.

Pure Dogma.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:24 am

..............although.......................dogma.................... is not a process of thinking.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:25 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Xouper thinks the universe has given humans the right to use weapons for self-defense, and that this right trumps everything else.

Pure Dogma.
ElectricMonk thinks no one has the right to use weapons for self-defense, and that his opinion trumps everything else.

Pure Dogma.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:30 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:1. "The number of people who believe a claim is irrelevant to its truth." /// But completely relevant as to what social policy should be.
Not when it comes to violating the rights of The People.

The reason the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution was to prevent people like you from violating the rights of The People.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:43 am

xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:1. "The number of people who believe a claim is irrelevant to its truth." /// But completely relevant as to what social policy should be.
Not when it comes to violating the rights of The People.

The reason the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution was to prevent people like you from violating the rights of The People.
......... and what was the reason for putting in a mechanism for changing the rights of the People in the Constitution?
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:46 am

xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:Xouper thinks the universe has given humans the right to use weapons for self-defense, and that this right trumps everything else.

Pure Dogma.
ElectricMonk thinks no one has the right to use weapons for self-defense, and that his opinion trumps everything else.

Pure Dogma.
wrong, but you know that.

The difference is that, unlike you, I am willing to entertain all options that would lead to less loss of lives, not only those options that you see in no conflict with your religion of immutable personal rights.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:06 am

ElectricMonk wrote: I am willing to entertain all options that would lead to less loss of lives, not only those options that you see in no conflict with your religion of immutable personal rights.
Phew...I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:25 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:Xouper thinks the universe has given humans the right to use weapons for self-defense, and that this right trumps everything else.

Pure Dogma.
ElectricMonk thinks no one has the right to use weapons for self-defense, and that his opinion trumps everything else.

Pure Dogma.
wrong, but you know that.
The US Supreme Court agrees with my position, not yours. It is not "dogma".

ElectricMonk wrote:The difference is that, unlike you, I am willing to entertain all options that would lead to less loss of lives, . . .
No, you aren't.

Unless you are willing to give up your personal convenience to use automobiles, don't lecture me about your supposed moral superiority.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:39 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Phew...I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
Not so.

Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense. This appears to be in direct response to the increasing crime rate in Europe. The police are not doing a good enough job protecting the people, and so it falls on the individual to protect himself. And many people are choosing guns for that purpose.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:43 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:1. "The number of people who believe a claim is irrelevant to its truth." /// But completely relevant as to what social policy should be.
Not when it comes to violating the rights of The People.

The reason the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution was to prevent people like you from violating the rights of The People.
......... and what was the reason for putting in a mechanism for changing the rights of the People in the Constitution?
Yes, bobbo, the people could indeed throw out the entire US Constitution and replace it with something else.

As for repealing the Second Amendment, not gonna happen, despite what a few loud-mouth pinhead politicians seem to think.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:17 pm

X, your dogmatic clinging to the fundamentally flawed comparison between cars and guns makes it impossible to have a constructive discussion with you.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:22 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:X, your dogmatic clinging to the fundamentally flawed comparison between cars and guns makes it impossible to have a constructive discussion with you.
Why should this be different from any other time with him?
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:39 pm

Xouper, may I attempt to show you in a different way why I have difficulties with your "guns as right to defend" argument?

If you say you have a right to the necessary tools to defend yourself against bodily harm or harm to your property, my question is: against whom?

Everyone who poses a (illegal) threat to you?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:45 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:X, your dogmatic clinging to the fundamentally flawed comparison between cars and guns makes it impossible to have a constructive discussion with you.
Now you know how I feel about your dogmatic clingings.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:56 pm

dogmatic: Characterized by assertion of unproved or unprovable principles. Hmmmm.... seems we don't have quite the right word. All too often here, X's positions are marked by demonstrably false principles....eg: guns are like cars when it comes to their social harm vs benefit analysis.

So ........what is "clinging to demonstrably false concepts?" =======some kind of "Science Denier" syndrome?? Gun Nut doesn't alert the naive as to what "Gun Advocates" are all about. Needs to have that element of a call for mental health services.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:06 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Xouper, may I attempt to show you in a different way why I have difficulties with your "guns as right to defend" argument?

If you say you have a right to the necessary tools to defend yourself against bodily harm or harm to your property, my question is: against whom?

Everyone who poses a (illegal) threat to you?
That's a reasonable question to ask.

There seems to be some ambiguity in your question, and I am tempted to interpret it as having two parts:

1. When do I have the right to own and carry tools of defense?

2. When do I have the right to use them?

If I have misunderstood your question, then please correct me and clarify what you are asking.

#2: Short answer: When someone poses an immediate and illegal threat to my safety, I have the right to use whatever means I deem necessary to stop the threat. I can explain in much more detail upon request.

#1: Short answer: I have the right to carry a gun in those places where I feel there might be a threat to my safety. Having it available on my person is different from actually using it against someone.

Does that answer your question?

Those short answers are merely a general principle and do not address all the special cases and circumstances that might arise. As they say, sometimes the devil is in the details. I am willing to give a longer answer if further clarification is desired.

Perhaps I have misunderstood something in your question, in which case, I will need further clarification what you would like me to explain.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:09 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:dogmatic: Characterized by assertion of unproved or unprovable principles. Hmmmm.... seems we don't have quite the right word. All too often here, X's positions are marked by demonstrably false principles....eg: guns are like cars when it comes to their social harm vs benefit analysis.

So ........what is "clinging to demonstrably false concepts?" =======some kind of "Science Denier" syndrome?? Gun Nut doesn't alert the naive as to what "Gun Advocates" are all about. Needs to have that element of a call for mental health services.
The US Supreme Court agrees with my position. It is not "dogma".

Also, your mere disagreement does not make my position "dogma".

Furthermore, your insults and attacks on my character are uncalled for and do nothing to help the conversation. Please stop.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:17 pm

The US Supreme Court agrees with my position. It is not "dogma". //// No it doesn't. The SCOTUS KNOWS its position/function is to interpret the Constitution.......not impose their own values. Your self centeredness is revealed by saying the Supremes agree with you.........its actually the other way around. Except you don't because the Supremes would never say the 2A will never change.

Also, your mere disagreement does not make my position "dogma". /// Agreed. Which is why I defined the term and noted we need something more grounded in your reality denying demostrably false positions.....although, "dogmatic" may have a slightly different definition than dogma...or the first definition I found: if dogma is "clinging to ideas regardless of how faulty they are" then you've been given multiple examples of that. It doesn't get more dogmatic than arguing for gun rights based on vehicle deaths. Just plain stupid.

Furthermore, your insults and attacks on my character are uncalled for and do nothing to help the conversation. Please stop. //// Your position KILLS 30K people per year. What do you want?...............free bullets?
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:37 pm

xouper wrote: #2: Short answer: When someone poses an immediate and illegal threat to my safety, I have the right to use whatever means I deem necessary to stop the threat. I can explain in much more detail upon request.

#1: Short answer: I have the right to carry a gun in those places where I feel there might be a threat to my safety. Having it available on my person is different from actually using it against someone.

Yes, this is what I understood your position to be.

I'm going to leave #2 for now, because in the heat of the moment it might be hard to make the correct judgement call about what is "necessary to stop the threat".

Rather I want to focus on you preparing for a dangerous situation when you can calmly assess how dangerous it might be and what you might want to bring in terms of weapon to defend yourself.

I see two issues with this:

1) You can't tell in advance if there is going to be a threat, so you would be best advised to always carry a gun

- but -

2) You can't know how big the threat will be: while a single attacker might be successfully stopped with a handgun (or the sight of it), a group of attackers might require a shotgun or full-automatic. And there is no upper limit to this: what kind of weapons would you need to have access to to defend against an entire gang?

Do you see the problem?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:51 pm

xouper wrote:
#2: Short answer: When someone poses an immediate and illegal threat to my safety, I have the right to use whatever means I deem necessary to stop the threat. I can explain in much more detail upon request. //// No, you don't. You can only use reasonable force according to the objective risk you are faced with. People go to jail all the time in their over reactive self defense. Inside your own home is the most sacrosanct.....hardly any in public: "the duty to retreat" vs "stand your ground" as YOUR RIGHTS are variously doled out from State to State..........OH..........and from the minds of Man who thought such limitations up.....and all legal per the Supremes. Ha, ha........the right to own and bear arms being distinct from the right to discharge a weapon.

#1: Short answer: I have the right to carry a gun in those places where I feel there might be a threat to my safety. Having it available on my person is different from actually using it against someone. //// No you don't. What color is the sky in your fantasy land?????? Lots of "gun free zones" and try entering any place with a metal detector........etc.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:15 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:#2: Short answer: When someone poses an immediate and illegal threat to my safety, I have the right to use whatever means I deem necessary to stop the threat. I can explain in much more detail upon request.

#1: Short answer: I have the right to carry a gun in those places where I feel there might be a threat to my safety. Having it available on my person is different from actually using it against someone.
Yes, this is what I understood your position to be.
Thank you for making the effort to understand my position, even though you do not agree.

Likewise I should try to understand your position.

ElectricMonk wrote:I'm going to leave #2 for now, because in the heat of the moment it might be hard to make the correct judgement call about what is "necessary to stop the threat".
The US courts have addressed that issue in great detail, which we can discuss later if you choose.

ElectricMonk wrote:1) You can't tell in advance if there is going to be a threat, so you would be best advised to always carry a gun
Correct. Many people do in fact do that. And some don't. Each person makes his own assessment and choice.

ElectricMonk wrote:2) You can't know how big the threat will be . . . Do you see the problem?
Yes, you raise a valid point.

Carrying a gun is not a guarantee it will always stop an attack. There are some scenarios where having a gun will be no help at all.

Most gun owners already know this.

But that problem does not stop people from carrying anyway, since defense with a gun is successful often enough to make it worth carrying.

Furthermore, that problem (of not always having enough stopping power) is not sufficient to deny people the choice to carry a gun.

Does that answer your question? Or have I missed something?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:43 pm

xouper wrote:#2: Short answer: When someone poses an immediate and illegal threat to my safety, I have the right to use whatever means I deem necessary to stop the threat. I can explain in much more detail upon request.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No, you don't. You can only use reasonable force according to the objective risk you are faced with.
The courts do not agree with your opinion.

The courts have clearly ruled that I can use whatever force I deem necessary at the moment to stop the threat. The victim generally gets the benefit of the doubt regarding how much force is necessary, and also in deciding when the threat has actually been stopped.

On the other hand, if you argue that I am not entitled to blow up the whole neighborhood simply to stop one home invader, then you have a point. But in the case of a home invasion, I am allowed to use an AR-15 to blow thirty holes in the bastards if that's what I feel it takes to stop the threat.

The key point here is that self defense only applies to stopping the threat. Once the threat has been stopped, further use of the gun is not warranted, although sometimes the courts give the victim lots of leeway in making that determination.

xouper wrote:#1: Short answer: I have the right to carry a gun in those places where I feel there might be a threat to my safety. Having it available on my person is different from actually using it against someone.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No you don't. . . .
Yes, I do.

Gun free zones are an infringement of my right.

Just because some law says I don't have "permission" to carry a gun into a gun free zone, that doesn't mean I don't have the right to do so anyway. Such laws can and have been ruled unconstitutional.

However, I am willing to compromise and accept that certain gun free zones (but not all) are a justifiable infringement of my right.

Example: In a courthouse, the government has extra security and protection of my safety, and so I am willing to let them subsume my right to defend myself in that room.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:45 pm

xouper wrote: But that problem does not stop people from carrying anyway, since defense with a gun is successful often enough to make it worth carrying.
Given how bad the statistics are on all kinds of gun violence, I would considers this statement insufficiently supported by evidence. Yes, there is anecdotal evidence galore and some clear cases, but then there are incidents where one person having a gun made matters worse.
Can we agree that your "successful often enough to make it worth carrying" is based at least as much on personal perception than factual accuracy?
xouper wrote: Furthermore, that problem (of not always having enough stopping power) is not sufficient to deny people the choice to carry a gun.
one thing at a time.
xouper wrote: Does that answer your question? Or have I missed something?
Thanks for your patience so far. I am not quite done yet.

xouper wrote: Carrying a gun is not a guarantee it will always stop an attack. There are some scenarios where having a gun will be no help at all.
This is what I want to get to.

Assuming a gun carrier realizes that in the current situation his weapon will not save him, what should he do?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:03 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:But that problem does not stop people from carrying anyway, since defense with a gun is successful often enough to make it worth carrying.
Given how bad the statistics are on all kinds of gun violence, I would considers this statement insufficiently supported by evidence.
In previous threads, I have cited both the CDC report commissioned by Obama on defensive uses of guns, and also FBI statistics that show that armed victims of attack usually fair better than unarmed victims. There is much more evidence than just those two.

My position is indeed supported by actual evidence, not just anecdotes or personal perceptions.

But even if it weren't, that wouldn't change anything. The right to carry a gun is not dependent upon how often it might be useful.

If you are arguing that the right to carry a gun should not apply if there's a good chance it won't be successful, then I do not agree with that argument.

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:Carrying a gun is not a guarantee it will always stop an attack. There are some scenarios where having a gun will be no help at all.
This is what I want to get to.

Assuming a gun carrier realizes that in the current situation his weapon will not save him, what should he do?
Probably the same as you would do. Try his best to avoid getting killed.

If I may now ask a question, what relevance does that have to the right to carry a gun?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:03 pm

xouper wrote: In previous threads, I have cited both the CDC report commissioned by Obama on defensive uses of guns, and also FBI statistics that show that armed victims of attack usually fair better than unarmed victims. There is much more evidence than just those two.

My position is indeed supported by actual evidence, not just anecdotes or personal perceptions.
I had a look at the CDC report, an even though it quotes studies that support your view that active (not passive) gun use leads to statistically better outcomes than without guns, the actual numbers are in big dispute.
I hope you agree with me that it would be important to get more/better data on this.
xouper wrote: But even if it weren't, that wouldn't change anything. The right to carry a gun is not dependent upon how often it might be useful.

If you are arguing that the right to carry a gun should not apply if there's a good chance it won't be successful, then I do not agree with that argument.

There are two very different issues here:
- the right to own and carry a gun for self-defense
and
- the efficacy of carrying one

We fundamentally disagree on the "rights" issue, and I don't see us getting on the same page anytime soon.


Is your position that even if guns are shown to make you less safe, that wouldn't affect your opinion that people should have the right to own and carry them?
ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:Carrying a gun is not a guarantee it will always stop an attack. There are some scenarios where having a gun will be no help at all.
ElectricMonk wrote: This is what I want to get to.

Assuming a gun carrier realizes that in the current situation his weapon will not save him, what should he do?
Probably the same as you would do. Try his best to avoid getting killed.
why not give the gun owner access to massive weapons to protect himself from any eventuality?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:07 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:I hope you agree with me that it would be important to get more/better data on this.
I can agree with that.

ElectricMonk wrote:There are two very different issues here:
- the right to own and carry a gun for self-defense
and
- the efficacy of carrying one
I will agree with that.

ElectricMonk wrote:We fundamentally disagree on the "rights" issue, and I don't see us getting on the same page anytime soon.
It seems that way, yes. If the best we can do here is reach mutual disagreement, then I can accept that.

ElectricMonk wrote:Is your position that even if guns are shown to make you less safe, that wouldn't affect your opinion that people should have the right to own and carry them?
That might depend on what you mean by "less safe".

Skydiving makes me less safe compared to staying in the airplane or staying on the ground. But does that mean I should give up skydiving?

Driving makes you less safe than if you stayed at home. Does that mean you should give up driving?

Not necessarily.

You make your risk/benefit analysis and choose accordingly. Some people decide that having a gun is not worth the risk. And that is their choice to make.

Even if guns are shown to make the gun owner less safe, that probably would not affect my opinion that people should have the right to own and carry them.

I agree that there are certain people who are fooling themselves if they think having a gun is making them safer. Example: People who fail to get any training on how and when to use a gun. Or parents who fail to keep their kids from accidentally killing each other.

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:Assuming a gun carrier realizes that in the current situation his weapon will not save him, what should he do?
Probably the same as you would do. Try his best to avoid getting killed.
why not give the gun owner access to massive weapons to protect himself from any eventuality?
Any eventuality? I don't know if that's possible. I'm not following what you have in mind. Please clarify.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:07 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Phew...I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote:Not so. Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense..........
So you are now so confused, you are arguing that the rest of the world are exploring methods to increase gun casualties? :lol:

What country best supports your counter claim? "Westworld?" :lol:

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:31 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Phew...I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote:Not so. Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense..........
Matthew Ellard wrote:So you are now so confused, you are arguing that the rest of the world are exploring methods to increase gun casualties? :lol:
If it's dead criminals, then yes. Otherwise no.

Many Europeans are getting tired of being defenseless victims of criminal behavior. And you want to keep them that way.

Matthew Ellard wrote:What country best supports your counter claim? "Westworld?" :lol:
France, Britain, Germany, Austria, take your pick.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:42 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote:Not so. Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense..........
Matthew Ellard wrote:So you are now so confused, you are arguing that the rest of the world are exploring methods to increase gun casualties? :lol:
xouper wrote:If it's dead criminals, then yes. Otherwise no.
I didn't say dead criminals. I said reducing gun casualties.
xouper wrote: France, Britain, Germany, Austria, take your pick.
None of those countries advocate the death penalty or civilians shooting criminals. You are just making stuff up as you go :lol: