How Guns could be outlawed in USA

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How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:21 am

Not surprising no one has posted re Las Vegas most relevant issue.....everyone here has posted....and it doesn't make any difference.

Still........for the passerbys........

It would be "easy" to fashion a Supreme Court Ruling that would do away with guns in the USA. There are two main easy routes:

1. Comparative Rights. All Rights have to be balanced/weighed/checked and balanced against all other rights...eg the right to be safe ((Its in the penumbra and well established, so don't be a moron and quibble about the point)). So...any SC merely needs to say the prior Supremes got it wrong in evaluating the language, meaning, impact of the 2Amendment to much in a vacuum.

2. The second way is just a plain reading of the 2 A==yes, "In order to maintain a militia...." When you have a professional equipped militia, you don't need every citizen armed. Again......the prior Supremes just got it wrong.

A. I think it would/will be easier to get the Supreme to "reinterpret" the 2A than it would be to amend the constitution.

B. It could happen relatively quck and easy with another or a series of mass attacks and finally enough/some/The President takes the issue personally and PUSHES IT====>with the Supremes. He could communicate thru the Justice Department and lawsuits until the Supremes get the hint its time to do what Congress has been paid not to do.

............................ Someday.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:40 am

Never happen.

The people will not give up their right to own and carry guns.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:02 am

xouper wrote:Never happen.

The people will not give up their right to own and carry guns.
When the Supremes rule..........the people will not have such a right.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:42 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote:Never happen.

The people will not give up their right to own and carry guns.
When the Supremes rule..........the people will not have such a right.
The Supreme Court does not grant rights, and therefore cannot take them away.

It can only protect or violate those rights.

And, no that is not a mere semantic quibble.

It is a clarification that fundamental rights do not come from the government.

The government is instituted to protect the people's inalienable rights.

And if the government no longer fulfills that duty, then the people have the right to form a government that will.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:57 am

You don't understand the first thing about the Supreme Court and its role in interpreting the Const.

I put forth two rationales the court could use to reverse the current position of the SCOUSA. Has NOTHING to do with whether or not gun nuts will like it or not. OF COURSE THEY WON'T LIKE IT. But.......rights flow from majority societal rules as devined by the Supremes.

Think of prohibition. A "right" to drink alcohol? Given, taken away, given back. There's your inalienable rights. Its all about hoomans........not mystical BS (Bogus Semantics)
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:07 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You don't understand the first thing about the Supreme Court and its role in interpreting the Const.
Right back at you, booboo.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:10 am

Very grammar school.

........................Yes Xouper..................I do know................and you don't. Just as set forth above.........by both of us.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:29 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Very grammar school.

........................Yes Xouper..................I do know................and you don't. Just as set forth above.........by both of us.
Sorry bobbo, but your explanation would get you a failing grade in college.

The Prohibition Amendment did not take away anyone's rights, it merely violated them.

And that's not a mere semantic quibble, it is a fundamental difference in political philosophy.

http://www.pbs.org/tpt/constitution-usa-peter-sagal/rights/ wrote:
What is a right, and where does it come from?

A right is a power or privilege that is recognized by tradition or law.

Natural or human rights are inherent to human nature; they are not given by government, but neither does government always protect them.

Legal rights are those recognized by government, but they can often be taken away as easily as they are given.

Throughout U.S. history, many Americans have sought to protect natural rights with law.
The right to drink alcohol is a natural right, not a legal right. That's why the Prohibition Amendment didn't stick. The people refused to give up their rights, regardless what the government said.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:33 am

Real life.

Was it the Dred Scott decision where the SCOUSA ruled that blacks could be held in bondage? And that stuck for however long it did until another amendment.

natural rights?=============>grow up. Smell the coffee.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:01 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Real life.

Was it the Dred Scott decision where the SCOUSA ruled that blacks could be held in bondage? And that stuck for however long it did until another amendment.
Yes, that court decision ruled that black people were not citizens and thus could not sue. And it was overturned by an Amendment that (among other things) granted citizenship to black people.

The crucial point here is that the Fourteenth Amendment expanded the protections of rights, not restrict them further.

With guns, you are advocating that the Court deny rights, same as they did in the Dred Scott case.

Well played, bobbo.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:natural rights?=============>grow up. Smell the coffee.
Insults, the last resort of someone who can't make their case on the merits.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:04 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:natural rights?=============>grow up. Smell the coffee.
Are you saying that you do not have the natural right of ownership of your liver?

If so, then I know someone who can use it right now, so fork it over.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:41 am

X==you arguments are rooted in ignorance.

Please respond to the OP. I won't waste my time otherwise.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:01 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X==you arguments are rooted in ignorance.

Please respond to the OP.
I did that already. Here: viewtopic.php?p=607110#p607110

That was a direct response to your opening post, which then led to further back and forth, which is how we got here.

But since you are losing that discussion, I can see why you want to shift focus back to the OP.

OK, here you go:

The proposals in your opening post are "rooted in ignorance."

They will never happen.

The people will not give up their right to own and carry guns.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Phoenix76 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:02 am

Interesting. I know nothing about American law, or it's constitution, but what I'm seeing here is two antagonists with very opposing views. And that sounds like the exact recipe for a good debate.

But sadly what I'm seeing, from the sideline, is one debater basically adhering to the normal laws of debate, Xcouper, and one descending to the lower levels of personal abuse, BtC. All sounds very familiar Bobbo, when you are unable to prove your point, you lower yourself to offering personal abuse instead of sound argument.

For example, Bobbo said:
natural rights?=============>grow up. Smell the coffee.
again Bobbo said:
Very grammar school.

........................Yes Xouper..................I do know................and you don't. Just as set forth above.........by both of us.
Sorry BtC, but this is where you always lose me, when you start trying to put people down. All you're doing is putting yourself down. Sorry

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:15 am

You two can't even identify the subject.

I'll pass.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:26 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You two can't even identify the subject.

I'll pass.
I did exactly as you asked and addressed the opening post. Again.

And in reply, is that the best you can do, take a cheap shot and then run away?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:00 am

X=critique why the Supremes could or could not change gun rights via overturning current law just as I posted.

Saying the knuckle-dragging gun nuts won't agree................. is assumed from the start. Thats what law enforcement is all about. THE LAW.....as set forth by the Supremes...........whether you like it or not. Right now..........the MAJORITY of Americans don't like the Supremes current ruling/positions. See how that works?

Try to keep up.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:08 am

We've had this discussion - exhaustively.

No, there are no "natural rights", because there is no magic power that gives humans something other animals have not.
The Golden or Silver Rule aren't laws and have no power beyond their proven usefulness for social coexistence.

The UDHR is a statement of intent and a goal to aspire to - but just because it is written down doesn't make it a force of nature that cannot be disobeyed.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:14 am

EM--exactly so...and it applies to the Constitution and Bill of Rights as well. Silly to trod that land again..... silly the first time!!!! Talking to children.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:23 am

ElectricMonk wrote:No, there are no "natural rights", because there is no magic power that gives humans something other animals have not.
Are you saying you do not have a natural right to self sovereignty and to own your liver?

If so, then fork it over, since there are people who can use it today. You have no right to keep it to yourself.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:25 am

Rights vs Power vs Social Contract. I assume you know the difference but sadly again think this kind of diversion is worthwhile? .................................... Its not.

Up your game.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:26 am

Just to add:
Noone is suggesting to outlaw guns. No countries have done so either. But the us could implement serious gun control, licences to own guns the equivalent of a driving license, banning of the most dangerous types etc etc. This can be done, isnt much of a limitation on law-abiding citizens, and would probably reduce the prevalence and/or casualties of such events as vegas.

But seeing as trumps first order of business to please the gun lobby was to remove what scant background checks there was for insane ppl I wouldnt hold ny breath. In this america is truly exceptional, and not in a good way.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:27 am

OOB - I think "Outlawing Guns" means just what you posted. Nothing is absolute.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:27 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X=critique why the Supremes could or could not change gun rights via overturning current law just as I posted.
OK, I'll expand on m previous comments.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:1. Comparative Rights. All Rights have to be balanced/weighed/checked and balanced against all other rights...eg the right to be safe ((Its in the penumbra and well established, so don't be a moron and quibble about the point)). So...any SC merely needs to say the prior Supremes got it wrong in evaluating the language, meaning, impact of the 2Amendment to much in a vacuum.
The preponderance of legal and historical evidence prevents that from ever happening.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:2. The second way is just a plain reading of the 2 A==yes, "In order to maintain a militia...." When you have a professional equipped militia, you don't need every citizen armed. Again......the prior Supremes just got it wrong.
No they didn't. They interpreted the 2nd Amendment correctly, both legally and historically.

In any case, the original definition of "militia" is every able-bodied civilian male, so again, even under your mistaken interpretation, everyone gets a gun suitable for defending the country, and that includes AR-15s if a person so chooses. Including women, because they are now "equal".

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:29 am

Idiot.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:39 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Idiot.
Wow, what a clever and intelligent comeback.

NOT.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:39 am

OutOfBreath wrote:Just to add:
Noone is suggesting to outlaw guns.
That is factually incorrect.
https://newrepublic.com/article/125498/its-time-ban-guns-yes-them wrote:
It’s Time to Ban Guns. Yes, All of Them.
By Phoebe Maltz Bovy, December 10, 2015

Ban guns. All guns. Get rid of guns in homes, and on the streets, and, as much as possible, on police. Not just because of San Bernardino, or whichever mass shooting may pop up next, but also not not because of those. Don’t sort the population into those who might do something evil or foolish or self-destructive with a gun and those who surely will not. As if this could be known—as if it could be assessed without massively violating civil liberties and stigmatizing the mentally ill. Ban guns! Not just gun violence. Not just certain guns. Not just already-technically-illegal guns. All of them.
That sure sounds to me like someone is suggesting a total ban.

OutOfBreath wrote:. . . the us could implement serious gun control, licences to own guns the equivalent of a driving license, banning of the most dangerous types etc etc. This can be done, isnt much of a limitation on law-abiding citizens, . . .
That is factually incorrect.

It would be a huge limitation, since the most "dangerous" also happen to be the most common. Banning them would affect most gun owners. Millions of them.

OutOfBreath wrote:But seeing as trumps first order of business to please the gun lobby was to remove what scant background checks there was for insane ppl . . .
That never happened. That's yet another myth promoted by the gun grabbers.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:41 am

xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Idiot.
Wow, what a clever and intelligent comeback.

NOT.
The OP is on HOW TO CHANGE THE LAW. Your comeback of the law was decided correctly is beyond stupid..... well.........
.......................maybe not...................... as I should realize you have nothing better.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:45 am

xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:No, there are no "natural rights", because there is no magic power that gives humans something other animals have not.
Are you saying you do not have a natural right to self sovereignty and to own your liver?

If so, then fork it over, since there are people who can use it today. You have no right to keep it to yourself.
Neither have you to yours. Neither did the animal which provided food for me - it lacked a protector of its liver, which is why I could take it without a universal power of "rights" of the animal stopping me.
And that is why we both have subjugated ourselves to the power of a state to protect our bodies from harm. It is a quid-pro-quo, and only someone supremely naive can think that they can demand a right from a state without giving something in return.

Rights only exist when people act as if they do - they are a social construct.
Xoup, you have already accepted all of this in the past, and are obviously suffering from amnesia.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:47 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The OP is on HOW TO CHANGE THE LAW.
The courts are not authorized to change the law. Only the legislature is authorized to do that.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:51 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:No, there are no "natural rights", because there is no magic power that gives humans something other animals have not.
Are you saying you do not have a natural right to self sovereignty and to own your liver?

If so, then fork it over, since there are people who can use it today. You have no right to keep it to yourself.
Neither have you to yours.
Sorry, I do not agree.

I have the natural right of self sovereignty, regardless what you think. and I have the natural right to defend my liver from anyone who would take it without my permission. (By the way, I gave written permission after I am dead. Organ donors card and all that.)

ElectricMonk wrote:Rights only exist when people act as if they do - they are a social construct.
Xoup, you have already accepted all of this in the past, and are obviously suffering from amnesia.
Perhaps I am. I don't recall agreeing to that. Perhaps you could help my memory by posting a link?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:55 am

You have the power to defend your liver (or not) - but plenty to laws in plenty of countries and times do not give you the right to do so. A right declared only by one party means nothing, because it can be ignored without consequence.
And why do you have the right, but a goose does not?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:57 am

ElectricMonk wrote:You have the power to defend your liver (or not) - but plenty to laws in plenty of countries and times you not give you the right to do yo.
So what. My natural right of self sovereignty is not given (or taken) by any law. The only thing the law can do is either defend my rights or violate them.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:04 pm

xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:You have the power to defend your liver (or not) - but plenty to laws in plenty of countries and times you not give you the right to do yo.
So what. My natural right of self sovereignty is not given (or taken) by any law. The only thing the law can do is either defend my rights or violate them.
By exactly the same token, I have a natural right to the English Crown Jewels - and the laws are violating by right to have them in my possession.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:09 pm

xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The OP is on HOW TO CHANGE THE LAW.
The courts are not authorized to change the law. Only the legislature is authorized to do that.
All law is subject to the Constitution. The Supremes tell legislatures what the limitations on their law making is.

Con Law 101.

You are obviously not qualified to post on this subject.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:09 pm

xouper wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:Just to add:
Noone is suggesting to outlaw guns.
That is factually incorrect.

That sure sounds to me like someone is suggesting a total ban.
OK, I'll rephrase. None of the players that matters are seriously suggesting a total ban. It's not on the table at all, and is only dragged out as scare-bait for gun-enthusiasts or frustration from proponents of gun control. (of course, someone will actually mean it. It just isnt in any way "about to happen")
OutOfBreath wrote:. . . the us could implement serious gun control, licences to own guns the equivalent of a driving license, banning of the most dangerous types etc etc. This can be done, isnt much of a limitation on law-abiding citizens, . . .
That is factually incorrect.

It would be a huge limitation, since the most "dangerous" also happen to be the most common. Banning them would affect most gun owners. Millions of them.
OK, let me rephrase it again then what i mean by "dangerous". I'm not talking about your duck-hunting rifle, I'm talking about army-grade Automatic weapons which nearly always are used in those scenarios.

Currently, the US has uniquely open access to weapons of mass destruction, and a uniquely high incidence and casualty rate of mass murders like Vegas. Seeing how other countries restricted certain weapon types and so on earlier, leading to a reduced number of incidences shows it can have an effect.

It is not impossible, and it is not a spectacular infringement on people's rights. Guns, like most dangerous substances, Tools and so on, should be regulated sufficiently to minimize the dangers they pose to people's freedom (you know, the other ones) and indeed lives.
OutOfBreath wrote:But seeing as trumps first order of business to please the gun lobby was to remove what scant background checks there was for insane ppl . . .
That never happened. That's yet another myth promoted by the gun grabbers.
Looks like it did:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tr ... al-n727221
Interpreting that as an undoing of a very modest slated increase in gun control efforts seems a reasonable reading to me.

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xouper
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:24 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The OP is on HOW TO CHANGE THE LAW.
The courts are not authorized to change the law. Only the legislature is authorized to do that.
All law is subject to the Constitution. The Supremes tell legislatures what the limitations on their law making is.
That's correct. But the Supreme Court cannot change the law as you proposed in the opening post.

As you say, Con Law 101. You are obviously not qualified to post on this subject.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:26 pm

xouper wrote:[That's correct. But the Supreme Court cannot change the law as you proposed in the opening post..
Why not?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
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xouper
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:27 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:You have the power to defend your liver (or not) - but plenty to laws in plenty of countries and times you not give you the right to do yo.
So what. My natural right of self sovereignty is not given (or taken) by any law. The only thing the law can do is either defend my rights or violate them.
By exactly the same token, I have a natural right to the English Crown Jewels
No, you do not have the right to someone else's stuff. :roll:

That is a violation of their sovereignty. Their right to self sovereignty trumps your claim to take their stuff.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:43 pm

xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:You have the power to defend your liver (or not) - but plenty to laws in plenty of countries and times you not give you the right to do yo.
So what. My natural right of self sovereignty is not given (or taken) by any law. The only thing the law can do is either defend my rights or violate them.
By exactly the same token, I have a natural right to the English Crown Jewels
No, you do not have the right to someone else's stuff. :roll:

That is a violation of their sovereignty. Their right to self sovereignty trumps your claim to take their stuff.
negotiable, just like your "sovereignty" - you must have quite the ego if you consider yourself a country in your own right (the only entity which can have sovereignty by dint of international laws).

plenty of people say that the Queen doesn't have the right to the stuff because it was stolen. So I can just as well make a claim on it - just like anything else in the world isn't property of anyone without an authority supporting that claim.
If it wasn't for the deed you got to your house you would have no right to claim it as yours - and that deed is issued and protected by the state. Property doesn't exit without an authority to acknowledge it.