Gun Safety

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:57 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Keeping a gun in the home for self defense is ridiculous. There are 100 home invasion murders each year in the USA, and about 320 people who drown in their own bathtub. For safety, I recommend that everyone taking a bath put on a life jacket first.
Not a Rational Agency: "See, there are fewer because people keep guns in their homes!"
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:04 pm

http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... on/266613/

It is called the internet, Gord.

The first reference says 341 bathtub drownings, but close enough.

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Paul Anthony » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:07 am

I'm a member of the NRA. I don't own a gun.

I support the NRA because they provide excellent gun safety training. If someone is going to own a gun, they should be trained in the safest ways to store it, use it and maintain it.

But keeping a gun in the house for protection is stupid.

A gun's advantage is distance. It can stop someone from getting close to you. Unless you live in a VERY large house, you're not going to need the range a gun can provide. If they're far enough away from you that you need a gun to stop them, they are probably outside. Shoot someone from inside your house while they are outside of your house and you're going to jail.

If they are inside with you, a knife is a much more useful weapon. Even against a gun. Yes, it actually DOES make sense to bring a knife to a gunfight. :lol:
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:20 am

Paul Anthony: you support the NRA because of their gun safety program? BWAHAHAHAHAHA. Who is zooming whom?

No doubt, you would have supported Hitler because he made the trains run on time...... or do you prefer he liked dogs?

got any stats on how many bad people with guns are stopped by good people with knives?...............I didn't think so.

You have entered..........stooge territory.
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:42 am

I agree with bobbo. The NRA is the stooge of the gun manufacturers, and is a major tool in their arsenal for making more money. They do that by getting more people to buy guns, and that means they need to ensure that it is easy for people to buy guns. The NRA stands for "gun freedom", meaning the ability to go out, buy a gun, and then kill people.

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Gord » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:12 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... on/266613/

It is called the internet, Gord.

The first reference says 341 bathtub drownings, but close enough.
Yes, but the internet is full of crap.

I was asking because I'd hoped there were good statistics out there somewhere, but I've never found any that I thought were conclusive. The term "home invasion" means different things in different places. There isn't (or wasn't, last I knew) a specific stat on a national basis, and individual states either don't record them at all or record them based on varying criteria. Most stats used to be recreated from listings that didn't originally categorise them as such -- for instance, I remember one source that took the number of burglaries per year, somehow worked out how many of those occurred when someone was probably home, coupled it with the number of murders per year, and magically came to a conclusion of how many people were probably murdered during home robberies, and called those "deaths during home invasions". It puzzled me how they got to that, and left me wondering about all the statistics I've ever seen since then.
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:06 am

Gord wrote: The term "home invasion" means different things in different places.
The two idiots who broke into my house while I was sleeping in bed got charged under Aggravated and specially aggravated break, enter and commit serious indictable offence

http://www.judcom.nsw.gov.au/publicatio ... ml#p17-040

You may remember that I went "bezerko" and beat up one of them using my land line phone handset and left a large blood splatter, which forensics used to convict them. She got 18 months. He got 24 months.

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Imagine if I had an AR-15 and was in my automatic "bezerko mode"? It would have been a disaster for everyone.

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:34 am

Gord

You are correct that statistics on home invasions are likely to be inaccurate. One official statistic I found said that there were just over 400 'burglary related homicides' per year in the USA. But they did not define burglary related. On the other hand, I have seen the number 100 for home invasion killings on several references. There may be a definition issue here. It is worth noting that the majority of home invasions where violence is INTENDED is done by someone who knows the occupant. Often a previous sexual partner. In burglaries where violence is NOT intended, 30% are carried out by someone who knows the occupant.

Basically, if you exclude cases where a jealous ex lover is involved, the murder stats are quite low. If a jealous ex lover IS involved, then you are in trouble regardless.

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Paul Anthony » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:28 am

Does "home invasion" include when the SWAT team breaks down your door?
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Paul Anthony » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:33 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I agree with bobbo. The NRA is the stooge of the gun manufacturers, and is a major tool in their arsenal for making more money. They do that by getting more people to buy guns, and that means they need to ensure that it is easy for people to buy guns. The NRA stands for "gun freedom", meaning the ability to go out, buy a gun, and then kill people.
You always agree with bobbo. You should seek help for that.

Of course the NRA supports gun owners and gun manufacturers. No one else will. They also provide very good training. You won't hear about that on MSNBC. You also won't hear it from bobbo. But just keep on agreeing with bobbo. No sense in straining your brain by thinking for yourself. :)
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:39 am

Nothing wrong with picking&choosing why you join any group. Every survey shows that most NRA members support gun safety training, strong background checks and are interested in gun safety innovations.
It's just the leadership that is bat-{!#%@} crazy.

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:42 am

Paul Anthony wrote: You always agree with bobbo. You should seek help for that.
Lol.

I have some stand up, slam down arguments with bobbo. There have been (gasp. horror) insults traded between us.

But when bobbo speaks good sense, I agree with him.

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:06 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
It's just the leadership that is bat-{!#%@} crazy.
THat's because even the gun manufacturers are not rich enough to bribe every member.

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Gord » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:00 am

Paul Anthony wrote:Does "home invasion" include when the SWAT team breaks down your door?
It depends who you ask. So, yes.
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:01 am

Paul Anthony wrote:Does "home invasion" include when the SWAT team breaks down your door?
How often does that happen?
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Paul Anthony » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:33 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:Does "home invasion" include when the SWAT team breaks down your door?
How often does that happen?
Depends on the neighborhood. Sadly, it is far more likely in poor neighborhoods. The police came to my door one day last week. They were polite. I was polite. The situation (they had the wrong house) was resolved amicably. But I live in a nice neighborhood with very few drug dealers. :)
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Paul Anthony » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:22 pm

After calling the shooting horrific and unthinkable, Sanders told NBC's "Meet The Press" that "for 25 years now, I've believed that we should not be selling automatic weapons which are designed to kill people, and we've got to do everything we can on top of that to make sure that guns do not fall into the hands of people who should not have them. Criminals and people who are mentally ill, so that struggle continues."

He wants to ban automatic weapons. Hmm. Good idea. We already did that. He went on...

When asked by host Chuck Todd if it is possible to have a conversation about terrorism and guns without politicization, Sanders said, "I do, Chuck. Because I think that there is a very broad consensus in this country, not a hundred percent of the people, overwhelming majority of gun owners and non-gun owners understand that we have got to do everything we can to prevent guns from falling into the hands of people who should not have them. That means expanding the instant background check. It means doing away with the gun show loophole. It means addressing the strawman provision. I think there is a wide consensus to move forward in that direction."

Good ideas. None of which would have prevented the Orlando shooter from buying guns. Which means none of the things he thinks we should do would have prevented the massacre in Orlando. But when you're running for office, you don't have to make sense. You just have to talk a lot. Which brings me to Trump...
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:46 pm

People being stoopid over what "politicization" means.....as if it means a mandatory disagreement. No....thats NOT what politicization means. Stoopid Media. How can stoopid people learn to think when stoopid media doesn't show them how? EG: Everyone is against pedophile priests, except the Catholic Church. Both Pukes and Dumbos are against pedophile priest. Politicization has zero impact because the politicians agree. Thats when you get things done. You find out our fine elected leaders are against pedophiles.

Not the same thing at all when other subjects are raised....like should psychopaths have access to guns. Now....the politics shows a split. A split between those who are on the Gun Manufacturers Take, and those who are against pedophile priests for the right reasons...instead of politics. Ha, ha........I just did a triple pirouette.

Paul Anthony: where you been? So naive. Learned nothing, or precious little in all your years? Very few here agree with anyone else "all the time." Shows your lack of intellectual rigor to think in such a lazy way. OF COURSE, Lance agrees with me when we share the same opinion. Who wouldn't?
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Flash » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:50 pm

In my part of the world the "home invasion" takes place when my mother in law comes for a visit.
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:54 am

Paul Anthony wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:Does "home invasion" include when the SWAT team breaks down your door?
How often does that happen?
Depends on the neighborhood. Sadly, it is far more likely in poor neighborhoods. The police came to my door one day last week. They were polite. I was polite. The situation (they had the wrong house) was resolved amicably. But I live in a nice neighborhood with very few drug dealers. :)
No numbers? You working from Google?
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:51 am

Paul Anthony wrote:After calling the shooting horrific and unthinkable, Sanders told NBC's "Meet The Press"...

When asked by host Chuck Todd if it is possible to have a conversation about terrorism and guns without politicization, Sanders said, "I do, Chuck. Because I think that there is a very broad consensus in this country, not a hundred percent of the people, overwhelming majority of gun owners and non-gun owners understand that we have got to do everything we can to prevent guns from falling into the hands of people who should not have them. That means expanding the instant background check. It means doing away with the gun show loophole. It means addressing the strawman provision. I think there is a wide consensus to move forward in that direction."


Good ideas. None of which would have prevented the Orlando shooter from buying guns. Which means none of the things he thinks we should do would have prevented the massacre in Orlando. But when you're running for office, you don't have to make sense. You just have to talk a lot. Which brings me to Trump...
Can't verify but I read that the shooter had supposedly been investigated/flagged three times(?) for possible ties to terrorists/terrorism (or something to that extend). Would an in depth instant background check* not have brought that up?


* I guess that would have to be extended to everyone/every purchase?
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Paul Anthony » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:02 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Can't verify but I read that the shooter had supposedly been investigated/flagged three times(?) for possible ties to terrorists/terrorism (or something to that extend). Would an in depth instant background check* not have brought that up?
He was investigated at least twice, possibly 3 times (depends on who you read). But the FBI dropped the investigations and closed the cases. Rumor has it, the DOJ discourages such investigations. Can't be looking too closely. Could be discrimination. Must have diversity. Yada-yada-yada.

We don't need more laws. We do need to enforce the ones we have.
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by gorgeous » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:05 am

umm....he worked for G4S ....a CIA front company...he worked for the CIA... =======G4s is a front group, where CIA, Mossad, MI6 have base operation hubs all over the world.

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:00 am

gorgeous wrote:.......where CIA, Mossad, MI6 have base operation hubs all over the world.
You mean working out of their country's embassies?

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:54 am

Paul Anthony wrote:
We don't need more laws. We do need to enforce the ones we have.
Are you a gun manufacturer's stooge, Paul? You wanna make even more billions for the Koch brothers? Because that is their official line.

THe USA definitely needs more gun laws, and needs to enforce them. Possession of a hand gun sending you to prison would be a good start. Ditto any gun with a magazine of more than 5 rounds.

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:11 am

The NRA is attacking gun safety at multiple levels: preventing or hobbling gun laws, defunding gun control programs and agencies (ATF chief among them), and helping to elect pro-gun local and federal officials and representatives.

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:00 pm

Paul Anthony wrote: We don't need more laws. We do need to enforce the ones we have.
A quibble: we may not need "more" laws, but the ones we have need to be different...as already suggested above.

Thing about the LAW though--it molds and shapes society. TELL someone they have a RIGHT to something and son-o-bitch they start to believe it. Ha, ha. You have a right to a gun....even if you totally lack the discretion to own and keep one. Life and law is like that...all kinds of lack of discretion people walking around...strapped.

In the USA, we have as always, created our own problem but this one is at the Constitutional Level along with a paid for corrupt Supreme Court on this particular issue favored by the Right Wing. NOTHING in the Constitution states that guns are a private right held by individuals. Poor draftmanship to assume a high school reading level to include the totally ignored language regarding maintaining a well regulated militia==>so, we got guns until the Supremes sing again or the Constitution is modified to agree with the super majority of citizens suffering under the Status quo.

Somewhat the same with TERRORISM: we have some laws there too all Constitutionally based. Free Speech, Right to Travel, Right to Assemble. Each one blows a hole in National Security. Put them all together.....and only the Oceans are keeping us safe.

Within the given restrictures, all we can do is spend more money. Stupidly....on law enforcement, or wisely on social services. Sadly, the military doesn't have any worn out unneeded social services, so we are stuck with the cops or nothing.

So far...nothing actually works as the oceans do.....but radicalization appeals to those without jobs or social approval or left to roam free with their debilitating neurosis. Its tough. Getting theRight Wing to choose between raising taxes/changing spending priorities....or getting shot.

In the end, its always choices....a ranking of values.

Just................................. look.
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Flash » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:56 am

Paul Anthony wrote:
He was investigated at least twice, possibly 3 times (depends on who you read). But the FBI dropped the investigations and closed the cases. Rumor has it, the DOJ discourages such investigations. Can't be looking too closely. Could be discrimination. Must have diversity. Yada-yada-yada.
Yes I know, the head of the FBI just said on TV that on account of their great respect for the law and privacy of American citizens the FBI couldn't do anything to prevent the massacre.

Absolute hogwash, they can and do {!#%@} people any time they want and never mind the constitution.

The American government gives shelter to all kinds of foreign terrorists in order to use them later on as their assets abroad. Tsarnaev brothers were Chechens and they could be useful in the future to cause murder and mayhem in Russia. America happens to be the home of several Chechen organizations which with such innocuous sounding names like American Committee for Peace in Chechnya and Chechnya Advocacy Group who are really fronts for the terror organizations in Russia.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/155335/t ... n+Chechnya

it's the same with this schmuck Mateen. His village idiot father seemed to have great political ambitions in Afghanistan and I guess the FBI just kept both morons in reserve for future deployment somewhere. That's why they let the younger Mateen go. And furthermore, they probably had a detailed profile of the younger moron and knew that he was a little bit gay and greatly conflicted about it.

I don't know who invented this apt expression "blow back" but it seems that the people who run the spying and terror tutoring business in America haven't yet learned a thing from it.
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:32 am

So, they're in the US because the shadow government wants them here?
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by TJrandom » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:38 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:So, they're in the US because the shadow government wants them here?
Yup - even ones born there. There oughta be a law.... :roll:

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:07 am

TJrandom wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:So, they're in the US because the shadow government wants them here?
Yup - even ones born there. There oughta be a law.... :roll:
I saw part of a speech by a President that pointed out that branding entire classes of people "terrorists" simply by virtue of their being in that class as bigotry.
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:48 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:I saw part of a speech by a President that pointed out that branding entire classes of people "terrorists" simply by virtue of their being in that class as bigotry.
Not when the "class" is terrorists. Its a tight tautology. Not often used by Tj, but quite effective when used.
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by TJrandom » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:25 pm

Just saw some of Trump on CNN - `While the shooter was born in the US, his ideas were not born in the US. WTF?`

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:30 pm

TJrandom wrote:Just saw some of Trump on CNN - `While the shooter was born in the US, his ideas were not born in the US. WTF?`
Trump is right! We need a ban on foreign ideas and tougher sentences for foreign-inspired thought crimes!

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Re: Gun Safety

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:33 pm

The evil of foreign ideas once generally accepted can be applied likewise to the interstate transport of ideas. Then....narrow it down to cities, blocks and finally, the real goal: you own house. My House....My Rules. The Patriarchy resurrects itself after too long a sleep.
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:15 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Just saw some of Trump on CNN - `While the shooter was born in the US, his ideas were not born in the US. WTF?`
Trump is right! We need a ban on foreign ideas and tougher sentences for foreign-inspired thought crimes!
Just remember who brought the first foreign ideas to the North American continent.
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TJrandom
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by TJrandom » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:56 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Just saw some of Trump on CNN - `While the shooter was born in the US, his ideas were not born in the US. WTF?`
Trump is right! We need a ban on foreign ideas and tougher sentences for foreign-inspired thought crimes!
Just remember who brought the first foreign ideas to the North American continent.
Asians - across that land bridge....

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Gawdzilla Sama
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:00 pm

Yep. Good catch.
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The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
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Paul Anthony
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Paul Anthony » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:50 pm

There is talk (again) about refusing to sell guns to people on the no-fly list. The problem with that is, there is no due process involved with the no-fly list. You are not told you are on it until you try to get on a plane. You have no recourse, in other words, no due process. A US Senator found he was on the list when they wouldn't let him on a commercial flight. Of course HE was able to get his name removed, but most of us aren't US Senators.

Since I've already been accused of being an apologist for the NRA, I might as well post their position:

"The NRA believes that terrorists should not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms, period. Anyone on a terror watchlist who tries to buy a gun should be thoroughly investigated by the FBI and the sale delayed while the investigation is ongoing. If an investigation uncovers evidence of terrorist activity or involvement, the government should be allowed to immediately go to court, block the sale, and arrest the terrorist. At the same time, due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed. That has been the position of Sen. John Cornyn (R.-Tex.) and a majority of the U.S. Senate. Sadly, President Obama and his allies would prefer to play politics with this issue".

Did you catch that? "If an investigation uncovers evidence of terrorist activity or involvement, the government should be allowed to immediately go to court, block the sale, and arrest the terrorist.

What is the point of a no-fly list if there is no follow-up investigation and no arrest? And if there is an arrest, that person would not be able to buy a gun. Duh!
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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Gun Safety

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:05 am

A smart would-be terrorist is not on any list. The 9/11 terrorists were not.

The 'solution' to the problem in the USA is bloody obvious, because it has been applied successfully by every westernised wealthy nation EXCEPT the USA. From that list, the second worst nation is Finland, with half the number of guns and half the number of murders per capita compared to the USA. The lowest number of guns is Japan, which also has the least murders. Do you need any stronger hints?