Gun Incident Tax

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:35 am

Suppozing GIT wuz the law now, the San Bernadino insident woud hav added upwardz uv 100,000,000$ to the total bill to be distributed amongst the hobbyists. 14 dead x 5,000,000$ = 70,000,000$ plus wutever the hospital billz and property damaj add up to.

Soundz like alot, but its really just a blip on the 30,000 deaths and 150,000 injuriez and who the hell knowz property damaj per yir.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:59 am

I like your tax idea Jo. It has the benefit of not needing to change the constitution or nominating a court of Supremes who would reverse direction in their activist interpretations.

I think 5MM is a bit high per death and too broad a brush. I like being rational even when the point of the tax is to get rid of odious gun ownership.

I would tie the death AND INJURY compensation to standard Workers Compensation and management it the same way. Rapidly, the gun tax funding would fall short of the damages it would still cause. The cost then would fall upon the general treasury.

A Federal or a State program? Pros and Cons. It is the Federal Constitution making guns available...............HEY!!!!---I would make it both. Feds as a floor, States to ramp up as democracy might demand.

Good one Jo. A program Xouper should jump right on as his rights are not affected at all---unless part of his rights is for everyone else to pay for them.

Hee, hee...................
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:16 am

5megabuks duz seem like alot at first, but consider this:

If you make it 500k, then a selebrity gets killed, the loss coud be way higher for all the dealz he or she haz going on, so the affected entityz woud demand the maximum they coud proov. Fair enuf.

But then, a little girl gets a bullet to the brain and everybody will start asking wy she wuz worth so little. Iz it kuz her parents are poor, or she wuz black or it wuz in rural Montana?

a 5 million minimum woud be enuf to keep that frum happening.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:27 am

I don't see the benefit of giving the RELATIVES of the dead person a windfall--except for the bread winners and then it should vary according to lost income. Actually..... the program should function more to support the wounded as they are the ones actually hurt directly.

Also, it makes little sense to give a person a 5Million Check from a fund that has NO MONEY in it. I prefer the Gun Madness to spur changes more broadly in our society==like a rational social safety net for health care services needed.

No more Big Lottery thinking.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:04 pm

Dont forget the basic purpose - to discouraj gun use and ownership. Sum dollar value haz to be set for a life. It needz to be hi, otherwize objects get interpretted by the GIT system az more valuable than anybody who iznt employed.

Also, a rejisterd gun owner doing a crime wich he expects to get away with will be motivated to finish the job if he only woundz sumwun. A ded person haz no medical billz.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:01 pm

The best place to start with reducing the amount of guns might be the point of inheritance:

usually, an inherited gun must be transferred to the heir through the books of a licensed gun dealer. At the very least, at this stage the number and kind of guns transferred should be registered with the ATF to know who got what. That could simply be done by putting an inheritance tax on each gun, with minor amounts for guns considered practical for self-defense and high tax highly dangerous ones. In paralell, there could be a buy-back scheme making it worth for heir to hand in the weapons they don't really want or need.
That way, people would be willing to part with their parents weapon collections.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-g ... dMJYWQ6.97

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:42 pm

Workers Comp has a death benefit.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 7:06 pm

The Seattle gun tax wuz upheld by a juj.

Herez the gun nut take on it: Patriot Newz Daily

Lets play find the bad lojik!
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 7:19 pm

Disqus article on the GIT

I did my level best to spell it in ordinary English and make it look like a real journalist rote it. Howzit look to you?
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by xouper » Fri Dec 25, 2015 7:29 pm

PatriotDailyNews.com wrote:... there is nothing in the Bill of Rights protecting a citizen’s smoking rights. Federal prohibition would be a mistake, but it wouldn’t be automatically unconstitutional.
Wrong.

That is a common mistake made by many people. It is a mistake that was warned against by some of the Founders, and is why there is a Ninth Amendment.

If smoking is a right, then the Ninth Amendment explicitly protects it from being violated by the federal government.

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:30 am

The 9th iz interesting. Seemz to mean that a bunch uv lawz coud be challenjed based on it. Just kuz sumthing iznt spesified in the Bill uv Rites, duznt mean its not protected by the Constitution.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:30 pm

An article by that very prolific Admin fellow at PatriotNewz.

The main claim iz that the liberalz cant think. I left a comment for him to think about.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:23 pm

TJrandom wrote:IMO – if in order to be able to their sell guns, the manufacturers needed to contribute to an industry-wide victims fund at a percentage contribution matched to their sales volume – you would quickly see manufacturers implementing their own limitations on ownership as well as gun type.
Believ it or not, the NRA manjd to make manufacturerz immune from anything like that. Its not immunity from product liability, but its close.
More about it

Also, the manufacturerz simply do not hav enuf money. Not even in the same magnitude.
The fund could operate much as insurance companies do – say paying more for young and random victims, less for adults living in the same household as their assailant, etc.
Therez sumthing to be sed about a more complex payment system.

A career thug shooting another career thug shoud not gain 5 million dollarz for the relativez uv the ded thug. Maybe 5M$ shoud still be added to the total GIT bill, but the money woud go for other victimz or related costs.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:54 pm

https://disqus.com/home/channel/shaping ... ident_tax/

Nice short article, easy to read, straightforward. You have an unanswered question in the comments re should tax/insurance fee be one time or yearly (obviously yearly I assume?).

A total quibble, for your next republication: I think NRA is about encouraging gun SALES with ownership and use being secondary to this interest. This might be confirmed by finding out how much $$ they sink into gun safety courses compared to yesteryear. Speaking of which, reminds me of the argument that Switzerland has very high gun ownership with low illegal use. I think the Swiss have mandatory training and competency of use monitoring. If you know how to use a gun, you might be less motivated to use it for the various reasons we can imagine?

I'll say this again (hate to repeat myself) it looks more and more to me we should institute DRACONIAN anti-gun use laws...ie ... use a gun in crime and go to jail. The only issue is for how long? And after that, for society, can we even afford that socially.... to lock up everyone caught with a gun when we have a culture that glorifies its use?

Ha, ha. Add Gun Culture to the long and growing list of whats wrong with America...... aka .... how it could be made so much better.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:36 pm

It iz ansrd. That wuz actually a frend uv mine who I asked to comment to hopefuly spark sum activity.

Didnt work. Also got zero comments on the Train Brakes topic, so I'm not going to put any more effort into Disqus. I luv how the banner looks, so I'm going to include it in the ZOL site wen I redo it.

I cant recall wich uv theze gun topics its in, but therez a link to an article about Switzerland gunz. Its basicly a myth. It explainz why the NRA duznt ballyhoo it more.

The more gun insidents there are, the more gunz sell. I suppoze the NRA woud be happy for zero insidents if slaez were just az brisk without, but thats the reality. Their job iz to sell az many gunz az possible, so anything that helps iz welcome, to hell with the side effects.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:30 pm

Just caught an old show of Daily w Trevor Noah re Guns. turns out, at least in Florida you have to take an approved gun safety course (NRA was shown) to get a gun. The 8 hour knowledge test with gun range took 8 hours. Show made the point that gun sales go up after tragedies, but they asked how come people don't buy bullet proof vests instead.

Back to the old statement of faith: would we all be safer if more people were armed?

...............or not?
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:32 pm

JO 753 wrote:It iz ansrd. That wuz actually a frend uv mine who I asked to comment to hopefuly spark sum activity.

Didnt work. Also got zero comments on the Train Brakes topic, so I'm not going to put any more effort into Disqus. I luv how the banner looks, so I'm going to include it in the ZOL site wen I redo it.

I cant recall wich uv theze gun topics its in, but therez a link to an article about Switzerland gunz. Its basicly a myth. It explainz why the NRA duznt ballyhoo it more.

The more gun insidents there are, the more gunz sell. I suppoze the NRA woud be happy for zero insidents if slaez were just az brisk without, but thats the reality. Their job iz to sell az many gunz az possible, so anything that helps iz welcome, to hell with the side effects.
well, take heart. I assume more people read than respond. You don't "really" post to change anyone's mind do you????? Ha, ha. Yes, that is a phase we all go thru.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:29 am

Influens. Probably not a 180 for anybody, but maybe .5 degree for sumwun who iznt a total sement hed.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:27 pm

Excellent orientation to the reality of hooman nature.

Keep posting.

So, when you "really" want to influence someone, you use standard spelling ......................... Hmmmmm, makes me wonder what your intent on this forum is?

Cement?
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:53 pm

Here, its to goof around and attack the sement in everybody hedz, including mine.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:34 pm

Remember in the early dayz uv the Obama administration and hiz project to get ideaz from everybody?

Wun uv the thingz wuz a way to contact the Wite House directly thru the website. I actually got a few replyz from the staff for the ideaz I sent. Nothing meaningful really, but it wuz nise to know that it wuznt all just dumped.

It wuz several yirz later wen I came up with the GIT idea here. I sent it to the Wite House a few timez, but never got a respons.

I mentioning this now bekuz I think therez a good reazon for the lack uv enthuziazm for the current efforts.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/08/us/po ... d=67734599

They are so lame that the NRA duznt even care! I can understand why the administration iznt bothering to put any real enerjy into the problem.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:24 am

The Care2 petition haz been reopened: https://www.thepetitionsite.com/310/930 ... ident-tax/

Wuts Congress doing about the problem? House bill 1460 Salez tax relief for firearm purchaserz!
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:56 am

JO 753 wrote:The Care2 petition haz been reopened: https://www.thepetitionsite.com/310/930 ... ident-tax/

Wuts Congress doing about the problem? House bill 1460 Salez tax relief for firearm purchaserz!

I do think that a GIT would be a great way to raise awareness of the harm guns cause.

It doesn't really matter whether gun manufactures, purchasers or taxpayers pay the gun tax, as long as someone is paying it.

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:21 am

But it duz matter. Thats the point. Its how it works.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by xouper » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:08 am

If the GIT is a good idea, then let's expand it to all man-made things that have killed or injured people, such as cars, lawnmowers, swimming pools, toe-nail clippers, etc.

Vending Machines kill more people per year than sharks. Tax them with a VMIT.

http://freakonomics.com/2011/09/08/how- ... onal-risk/

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:58 am

economists love the idea of taxing externalities - everyone agrees that a carbon tax would be the simplest way to fight climate change without affecting the economy.
The only problem is quantifying the damage done to the common property.

Xoup, your counterargument stinks because car makers etc. can be sued when their products cause harm, but gun manufactures can't.

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by xouper » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:39 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Xoup, your counterargument stinks because car makers etc. can be sued when their products cause harm, but gun manufactures can't.
That is factually incorrect.

Car manufacturers can only be sued if a manufacturing (or design) defect causes the harm.

Gun manufacturers can also be sued if a manufacturing (or design) defect causes the harm.

What manufacturers cannot be sued for — whether it's cars, guns, or lawn mowers — is when their product is used illegally.

Example, Ford cannot be sued if a drunk driver kills someone using a Mustang.

And that's fair, because clearly it was not the manufacturer's fault. It was the idiot who used the car illegally.

Same for guns. And everything else.

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:45 am

gun manufactures are way more shielded than other industries.

But regardless, we do require cars to be insured, even by people who will never cause an accident.
In many countries, computers and smartphones are taxed because of the ease of using them to illegally stream content; other places tax storage mediums (DVDs, HDD etc.) because some of them will be used for illegal filesharing etc.


So your argument still stinks.

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by gorgeous » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:51 am

Do none of you own guns or know anyone who does? seems weird...I was at an elderly lady's house this week ...she has a very old shotgun behind her door she got when they lived in Turkey....I met a 90 yr. old man in a wheelchair who helped bomb Berlin during the war who had a loaded shotgun near his door and gun cabinet with others...my dad hunted , still have his rifles......my neighbor, a disabled lady, pulled a shotgun on a hostile neighbor who was harassing kids years ago....had a neighbor years ago who hunted doing target practice in his back yard....another neighbor was shooting birds out of my tree years ago...I called the cops on him...when I was a teen some teen was in a guy's yard at night, the guy shot him, he survived....
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by xouper » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:10 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:gun manufactures are way more shielded than other industries.
That is factually incorrect.

ElectricMonk wrote:But regardless, we do require cars to be insured, even by people who will never cause an accident.
In many countries, computers and smartphones are taxed because of the ease of using them to illegally stream content; other places tax storage mediums (DVDs, HDD etc.) because some of them will be used for illegal filesharing etc.

So your argument still stinks.
You are entitled to your opinion, even when it's wrong.

What's stinks is taxing law abiding citizens for items just because some people misuse them.

I totally reject that mindset as being fundamentally against the ideal of personal freedoms.

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:06 pm

Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectio ... n_Arms_Act

I assume I don't understand what you meant to say.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by xouper » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:49 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectio ... n_Arms_Act
You aren't telling me anything I did not already know.

It says exactly what I have been saying.

It gives gun manufacturers the same protections as all other manufacturers.

This law does not give gun manufacturers any special protections that other manufacturers don't have.

Regardless what (legal) product it is, no manufacturer should be held liable for illegal use of their product.

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:29 pm

Herez an interesting article about neglejent entrustment. If not for their special protection law, this woud hav bankrupted the industry.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by xouper » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:01 pm

JO 753 wrote:Herez an interesting article about neglejent entrustment. If not for their special protection law, this woud hav bankrupted the industry.
That's not correct.

That law does not give gun manufacturers special protection from "negligent entrustment".

The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act  says the gun manufacturers may also be held liable for negligent entrustment when they have reason to know a gun is intended for use in a crime.

Merely manufacturing a product for general sale is not (and cannot be) interpreted as negligent entrustment. In order to show negligent entrustment, it must be shown that the seller has foreknowledge about a specific person who will use a specific gun in an illegal manner.

This is why Ford cannot be sued if a drunk driver kills someone with a Mustang, even though we all know that sometimes an inebriated person will use a car that way.

This is why the judge dismissed the Sandy Hook lawsuit against Remington (maker of the AR-15 used by Adam Lanza). The plaintiffs claimed negligent entrustment and the judge said no, it's not.
The New York Times wrote:. . . [the plaintiffs] argued that the manufacturers and distributors of assault rifles modeled on the AR-15 had been negligent in selling the weapons to civilians, who are not trained to handle a gun that is “designed to be used in combat to assault and kill enemies of war,” as Joshua D. Koskoff, one of the families’ lawyers, said in June.

Judge Bellis ruled that their claims were too broad to fall under negligent entrustment, and said Congress had already deemed the civilian population competent to possess the weapons by the nature of its law.

“To extend the theory of negligent entrustment to the class of nonmilitary, nonpolice civilians — the general public — would imply that the general public lacks the ordinary prudence necessary to handle an object that Congress regards as appropriate for sale to the general public,” she wrote. “This the court is unwilling to do.”
Plaintiffs are simply wrong that the general public is not qualified to handle the AR-15. With minimal training, it is an easy gun to use and there are millions of them in private hands. The military does not use the AR-15. It was specifically designed for civilian use.

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:29 pm

I disagree with the juj.

The evidens supports my pozition that humanz are not intellectually or emotionally stable enuf to be entrusted with that much destructiv power.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by xouper » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:48 pm

JO 753 wrote:I disagree with the juj.

The evidens supports my pozition that humanz are not intellectually or emotionally stable enuf to be entrusted with that much destructiv power.
Apparently you've never fired an AR-15, else you would know how wrong that is.

The typical AR-15 is just another .22 calibre rifle with not much destructive power compared to traditional hunting rifles such as a 30-06.

In fact in some states it's not legal to use an AR-15 for hunting deer because it's not powerful enough to guarantee a kill with one shot.

Teenagers have successfully used AR-15s for self defense against home invaders.

If AR-15s were truly a problem as you seem to be saying, then given that there are millions of them in the hands of ordinary Americans, we would have heard about the problem by now.

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:36 am

If this wuz about a 1 shot Derringer, my opinion woud be the same.
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True Skeptic
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Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm

Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by xouper » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:03 am

JO 753 wrote:If this wuz about a 1 shot Derringer, my opinion woud be the same.
OK, fair enough . . . I respect your right to have that opinion.

I'd still come over and help you play with work on your land-barge car. ;)

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JO 753
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:34 am

Kool! I'll PM you wen I start on the subframe.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

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JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 14219
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND

Re: Gun Incident Tax

Post by JO 753 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:07 pm

gorgeous wrote:Do none of you own guns or know anyone who does?
Most uv my nayborz are gun nuts uv sum level uv dedication. Sort uv a red neckish area.

I wunder how many uv the country muzik fanz in Vegas were armed. Even if gunz were not allowed, I think its unlikely there werent any. Gunz are part uv their culture.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.