A thought about the second amendment

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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:48 pm

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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:42 am

I heard a new argument re gun control just now by Trevor Noah: paraphrased: If you think about it, the second amendment at its heart is about protecting people. Its ironic now that the second Amendment is being used to protect guns not people.

He made a few other good general points the one not heard often enough being that Trump, The Internet, Video Games, Mental Illness all play their role in Mass Shootings. Like cancer: there is no one cause but many causes all interacting with one another. BUT: when it comes to mass shootings, the one and only common denominator is THE GUN. I mean: you don't even have to connect the dots, when there is only ONE DOT.
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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:54 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:42 am
I heard a new argument re gun control just now by Trevor Noah: paraphrased: If you think about it, the second amendment at its heart is about protecting people. Its ironic now that the second Amendment is being used to protect guns not people.
I completely disagree with this: the 2nd Amendment is about protecting the country, at the cost of the individual citizens who are asked to risk their lives to protect it, and should have a gun in their home to do so.
The 2nd Amendment enshrines a Guerilla Force as the means to fight invasion.

It has no role in peacetime.

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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:59 am

Well EM........IN CONTEXT..........countries are not a thing that can be protected or attacked or anything else. Its just a construct. IN CONTEXT: "the country" is indeed the PEOPLE that make up the population of any country. so.....Noah is completely correct in his restatment/focus on the "heart of the matter." Your statement is conflicted/ambiguous in my view. Can't tell when you are making a positive statment or disagreement with a premise you put forth. eg: the role of having guns in peacetime is to be able to fight a guerilla war, or to threaten same, should that need arise. In my view...that benefit is outweighed by the daily cost/harm of gun deaths.
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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:44 am

the CONTEXT is the framers of the Constitution, who very much thought that a country was a real thing in need of defending against other countries (*cough* Britain *cough*). Dying to protect it was the price for living without a State Religion - or excessive taxes.
The Colonists needed France's supply of arms during the Revolutionary War, and they didn't want to be fully dependent on outside help ever again.

But I stand by my opinion that this has nothing to do with the peacetime use of weapons. In fact, using the weapons set aside for defense instead for domestic use might be considered negligent.
And a Guerilla War is the absence of peace, even if only one side has to declare it.

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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:47 am

Look up the Whiskey Rebellion.
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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by TJrandom » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:43 am

On tax fairness - it isn't that the rich need to be taxed more than the poor - but rather taxed just as much. The poor (wage earners) get taxed at source while the rich don't, plus they have multiple ways of reducing their taxation.

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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:46 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:44 am
the CONTEXT is the framers of the Constitution, who very much thought that a country was a real thing.....
Its a definitional point. Do you think the FF were thinking of "the Country" which did not even exist..........or of the people who did exist.........or of their own financial druthers to stay the richest people in the colonies with their slaves, land, and so forth?
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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:32 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:46 am
ElectricMonk wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:44 am
the CONTEXT is the framers of the Constitution, who very much thought that a country was a real thing.....
Its a definitional point. Do you think the FF were thinking of "the Country" which did not even exist..........or of the people who did exist.........or of their own financial druthers to stay the richest people in the colonies with their slaves, land, and so forth?
As usual with Politicians, I assume that they believed that whatever benefited them also benefited the country as a whole.

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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:45 am

Guns and money.
The second amendment was created to permit an amateur militia for national defense. That need has long since passed, and amateur militias now are no longer an asset. Instead, any such group is a liability, and a danger to the population.

But the second amendment continues, and has never been repealed. Why ? Because a whole bunch of rich guys make and sell guns. They have enough money to bribe politicians. So the continuing existence of the second amendment is simply another way for the rich to get richer, by means of the corruption of politicians.

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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by landrew » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:44 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:45 am
Guns and money.
The second amendment was created to permit an amateur militia for national defense. That need has long since passed, and amateur militias now are no longer an asset. Instead, any such group is a liability, and a danger to the population.

But the second amendment continues, and has never been repealed. Why ? Because a whole bunch of rich guys make and sell guns. They have enough money to bribe politicians. So the continuing existence of the second amendment is simply another way for the rich to get richer, by means of the corruption of politicians.
Or maybe most people don't want the government to lose its fear and respect for the people.
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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:00 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:44 pm
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:45 am
Guns and money.
The second amendment was created to permit an amateur militia for national defense. That need has long since passed, and amateur militias now are no longer an asset. Instead, any such group is a liability, and a danger to the population.

But the second amendment continues, and has never been repealed. Why ? Because a whole bunch of rich guys make and sell guns. They have enough money to bribe politicians. So the continuing existence of the second amendment is simply another way for the rich to get richer, by means of the corruption of politicians.
Or maybe most people don't want the government to lose its fear and respect for the people.
LOL

The American public is not a threat to the government.
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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:06 am

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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by landrew » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:57 pm

As a boy, I found a cache of stone war clubs in a farmer's field. I assume they were such, because they had grooves chipped around them such that they could be tied onto handles with sinew. There were quite a number in one spot, so I assume it was a cache.
native-american-indian-carved-stone-axe-war-club-head-full-groove.jpg
It seems natural for humans to stockpile weapons, feeling more secure in larger stockpiles, but logically it makes little sense and tends not to favor your odds of survival when and if hostilities begin. The Soviet Union had a 3-1 military advantage when Germany invaded in 1941, but lost vast tracts of territory, most of their equipment and 800,000 men. An additional 6 million men were wounded or captured.
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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:51 pm

Yeah, but the Germans were stopped. The turning point of WWII was when they were prevented from advancing any further into Russia, and their losses began mounting. For the German forces, it was all downhill after that, till their defeat.

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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:02 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:57 pm
As a boy, I found a cache of stone war clubs in a farmer's field. I assume they were such, because they had grooves chipped around them such that they could be tied onto handles with sinew. There were quite a number in one spot, so I assume it was a cache.
native-american-indian-carved-stone-axe-war-club-head-full-groove.jpg
Or a stock of trade goods. People needed fire wood more often than they need to break somebody's head. Your biases are showing.
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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:20 pm

lmftfy: "Stockpile............................."anything of value."
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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by landrew » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:28 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:51 pm
Yeah, but the Germans were stopped. The turning point of WWII was when they were prevented from advancing any further into Russia, and their losses began mounting. For the German forces, it was all downhill after that, till their defeat.
They were prevented by the winter and lack of fuel and supplies. The Russians eventually drove them back, but their loss ratio was always much higher than the Germans.
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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:01 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:28 pm
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:51 pm
Yeah, but the Germans were stopped. The turning point of WWII was when they were prevented from advancing any further into Russia, and their losses began mounting. For the German forces, it was all downhill after that, till their defeat.
They were prevented by the winter and lack of fuel and supplies. The Russians eventually drove them back, but their loss ratio was always much higher than the Germans.
The Soviets weren't concerned with casualties, so frontal assaults were ubiquitous. Imagine banzai charges with 50,000 men.
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Re: A thought about the second amendment

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:23 am

Most of the Russian losses were civilians. Apparently the whole thing was a total nightmare. Lack of essential supplies, disease and famine. But it was still the turning point. The Soviets did more to defeat Nazi Germany than any other nation.