"The Spanish Holocaust"

Read any good books lately?
nmblum88
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"The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by nmblum88 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:14 am

By the British histoiran Paul Preston, subtitled, "Inquisition and Extermination in Twentieth Century Spain .

Have just this evening finished this remarkably relevant as well as researched and documented history of the iron fisted and horrendous reign by Francisco Franco in Spain from 1938 (the end of the Civil War that brought an end to the first Spanish Republic).to 1975, the year of Franco's death.
Interesting that for 37 years that Franco jailed, tortured, executed, denied employment to, confiscated the property of, and otherwise hounded citizens, starved and even maimed the last vestiges of dissenters (real or imagined).
During that time, e 6 American Presidents came and went, not one mention was ever made of using our influence, much less bombing Madrid, to make Franco cease and desist in his using of cruelty and vindictiveness as political tools to solidify his monomaniacal (and Catholic) reign.
We had a military presence in Spain during the entire time of the Franco ascendancy.
We traded with Spain, we invested in Spanish capitalism,.
But we never in anyway interfered with the murder and mayhem that was going on, there.
Which does make one wonder, how and why we choose our military interventions on behalf of "freedom" and "democracy."
But highly recommended on other grounds for thought as well.
Including the seemingly inviolate role the Vatican always manages to play while mayhem, unspeakable torture, and casual executions are rampant.




NMB
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Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by OutOfBreath » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:17 am

Heh, from the title I thought it was about spanish colonialism in latin america.

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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by nmblum88 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:41 am

OutOfBreath wrote:Heh, from the title I thought it was about spanish colonialism in latin america.

Peace
Dan

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Well, no.... another Holocast entirely.
The Holocaust against the indigenous of Latin America is certainly covered in a lot of books, however.
If you are interested, some of the best are by Salvador de Madariaga....

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by Rob Lister » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:17 am

nmblum wrote:Which does make one wonder, how and why we choose our military interventions on behalf of "freedom" and "democracy."
I think you're begging the question, but I can understand how most might given that is typically the justification given for interventions. The real function of interventions is most always some arcane and esoteric national interest; oil, territory, regional stability, trade, etc. If the actual reason doesn't seem to justify the intervention on its simplistic face, propping it up with the "freedom" and "democracy" spiel is a rhetorical tool that works. The U.S. has suffered--enabled and even created--dictators and despots galore. So long as they don't get in the way of more important objectives, we're not going to interfere.
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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:27 am

Imagine there's no countries. Withdraw your consent to be governed by Obama, Bashar Assad, Putin, King Abdullah, or anyone else. Tell the authorities to go drone themselves.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/09/mich ... the-state/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by Rob Lister » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:37 am

The 'state' is in my interest, albeit barely. I shan't withdraw from it until the balance changes. Divorcing myself from it, while still living under and in it, is fantasy. Admittedly, the conjugal duties suck. I claim headaches as often as possible.
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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by fromthehills » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:04 pm

I have a friend from Spain. Came over when he was a child, but was in school over there. He had brothers and sisters that stayed when they came over. He visits Spain fairly often, and has told me of the remnants of Franco fascism still present even now. I actually had no idea, at all, that any of this had occurred until he brought it up. So I did some extensive reading on it, well, I read the Wikipedia page, most of it. It's been a few years. He moved to Durango for work, but we keep in touch, as I go to Durango still, and he still comes over here. Probably one of the most honest, upstanding people I've ever met.

But to your point, Norma. It's my opinion that we've, the US, ridden that bastion of freedom bit since WWII, but haven't really done anything to show for it since. We're going to bring democracy to the world is a total BS claim, and not just in your example. Today we trade, and are friendly with China and Saudi Arabia, just to name the top two, whom neither give a {!#%@} about freedom for their people, nor are they in the slightest bit apologetic about it. We do nothing to stop the genocides in many parts of Africa. And we've done much to quash democracy in Latin America when they elect leaders we don't approve of. And I say "we" loosely, because our own democracy is incredibly flawed. We vote for government leaders ostensibly to represent we the people, but they really don't do much to actually represent us. No one wants to go into Syria, to bomb, arm rebels, or otherwise, and yet they keep saying they are speaking for the American people, that we have to punish Syria for using chemical weapons. ( sorry if I'm behind on this, if the status has changed, busy as hell here )

At least Fascist tyranny is honest. The US can't claim that we're honest about anything, well, we can, but no one believes us.

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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:18 pm

Rob Lister wrote:The 'state' is in my interest, albeit barely. I shan't withdraw from it until the balance changes. Divorcing myself from it, while still living under and in it, is fantasy. Admittedly, the conjugal duties suck. I claim headaches as often as possible.
I agree with you, and I'm in the same position you are. What's important, though, imho, is to at least, as you apparently have, free oneself emotionally from the state, disavowing the religiously patriotic aspects of it, the sacred duties, the sacred flag, etc.

The likes of Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh seem to think it's great for others to "pledge their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor" in defense of the government, but I don't see them or other chicken hawks doing it.
Last edited by Tom Palven on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by nmblum88 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:32 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:Heh, from the title I thought it was about spanish colonialism in latin america.

Peace
Dan

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Okay.... I get it now.
A "gotcha" gone somewhat awry.
However, I didn't make up the title of Preston's book.
Which is The Spanish Holocaust: Inquisition and Extermination in Twentieth Spain.
So whatever dissatisfaction, confusion, or irritation you are experiencing should be addressed to Paul Preston at the London School of Economics.
And I hope that clears the matter up, with the sad reality that there have been many Holocausts.
And that in fact the dark side of human history is the trajectory of one Holocaust after another.

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by Daedalus » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:13 pm

We've always been more reluctant to intervene in genocides that are purely intra-national. WWII was most notable, not only for how systematic and planned the genocide was, but that it took place as part of a inter-national war.

Cambodia or Rwanda by contrast, were essentially civil wars, and genocides.
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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by Lausten » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:31 pm

Is there any oil in Spain? IMO, we bomb or invade or change regime or whatever when there is something there we want. There is no consistency about the ideology of who we partner with or conquer.
fromthehills wrote:No one wants to go into Syria, to bomb, arm rebels, or otherwise, and yet they keep saying they are speaking for the American people, that we have to punish Syria for using chemical weapons.
With you 100% there. That is, no one wants to do that themselves, some will gladly send others to do it.

I read a good overview of libertarians the other day. I was always pressed to come with an argument against their stand that government should only be there to defend the homeland and provide patent laws. But, why those two things? If defense is something everyone wants, let it compete in the marketplace. We would never have developed this standing army all over the globe with that condition, but I bet we still would have defeated the Nazis. Same for patents, why couldn't a private organization police them?
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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by Daedalus » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:07 pm

Lausten wrote:Is there any oil in Spain? IMO, we bomb or invade or change regime or whatever when there is something there we want. There is no consistency about the ideology of who we partner with or conquer.
fromthehills wrote:No one wants to go into Syria, to bomb, arm rebels, or otherwise, and yet they keep saying they are speaking for the American people, that we have to punish Syria for using chemical weapons.
With you 100% there. That is, no one wants to do that themselves, some will gladly send others to do it.

I read a good overview of libertarians the other day. I was always pressed to come with an argument against their stand that government should only be there to defend the homeland and provide patent laws. But, why those two things? If defense is something everyone wants, let it compete in the marketplace. We would never have developed this standing army all over the globe with that condition, but I bet we still would have defeated the Nazis. Same for patents, why couldn't a private organization police them?
Was there oil in Bosnia?

P.S. The private sector was happy to cooperate with the Nazis when it was profitable. Maybe a free market for that would just lead to a state of constant warfare and subsequent profits. After all, maybe the Nazis would have been better for the bottom line.
"Propaganda is a monologue which seeks not a response, but an echo." (W.H. Auden)
"Given time and plenty of paper, philosophers can prove anything." (Robert Heinlein)
"The map is not the territory." (Alfred Korzybski)
“You’re in the desert, you see a tortoise lying on its back, struggling, and you’re not helping — why is that?" (Bladerunner)

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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by nmblum88 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:45 pm

fromthehills wrote:I have a friend from Spain. Came over when he was a child, but was in school over there. He had brothers and sisters that stayed when they came over. He visits Spain fairly often, and has told me of the remnants of Franco fascism still present even now. I actually had no idea, at all, that any of this had occurred until he brought it up. So I did some extensive reading on it, well, I read the Wikipedia page, most of it. It's been a few years. He moved to Durango for work, but we keep in touch, as I go to Durango still, and he still comes over here. Probably one of the most honest, upstanding people I've ever met.

But to your point, Norma. It's my opinion that we've, the US, ridden that bastion of freedom bit since WWII, but haven't really done anything to show for it since. We're going to bring democracy to the world is a total BS claim, and not just in your example. Today we trade, and are friendly with China and Saudi Arabia, just to name the top two, whom neither give a {!#%@} about freedom for their people, nor are they in the slightest bit apologetic about it. We do nothing to stop the genocides in many parts of Africa. And we've done much to quash democracy in Latin America when they elect leaders we don't approve of. And I say "we" loosely, because our own democracy is incredibly flawed. We vote for government leaders ostensibly to represent we the people, but they really don't do much to actually represent us. No one wants to go into Syria, to bomb, arm rebels, or otherwise, and yet they keep saying they are speaking for the American people, that we have to punish Syria for using chemical weapons. ( sorry if I'm behind on this, if the status has changed, busy as hell here )

At least Fascist tyranny is honest. The US can't claim that we're honest about anything, well, we can, but no one believes us.
Between "riding the bastion of freedom" and actively perpetuating the worst of regimes (Spain being but one example even if the worst, most blatant), there is a chasm bigger than the Grand Canyon, From.

Me?
I would be satisfied with a simple lack of hypocrisy... a simple admission of practicing real politik ..... what works for us as a super power surviving on the resources of others is good, and everything else counts for nothing at all.
We seem t o be on the wrong side of everything... but it would be slightly more palatable if we simply admitted our positions as the product of deliberation and decision: we act out of our self- interest, nothing more, ethereal political philosophies have nothing to do with our reality.

Preston's focus in book is not a total surprise: only the scope and intensity of the terror, the imprisonment, the number of executions, the torture, the misery, the fear, the broken personal lives, the families destroyed by dissension, the police presence as a daily factor , is news.
That Spain was a police state has been common knowledge. since 1938 when the Civil War ended, it's role as a testing ground for WWII being conclusively decided by the deliberate indifference of the Western "democracies" and the crushing duplicity of Stalin's Soviet Union.
(We more like the Russians than we can allow ourselves to admit.)

That did not stop U.S. banks and businesses, in collusion with the U.S. government from actively making it possible for the Franco regime to survive and to some extent prosper until the Caudillo's death in 1975, and to bolster the Royals (and their more "normal" repepressions) since then.
My point really was that bombing, with even the best of intentions is not a good sales pitch...
Because it simply doesn't work.
And combined with the clear fact that no one in the world any longer believes that our advertisement for democracy is anything other than the a lie - in the case of Iraq it is "the big lie," made manifest - we become by default the enemy rather than any semblance of friend.

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by nmblum88 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:05 pm

And one more thing.
The example of Spain is relevant to this Forum ( relevancy in the present climate of invasive supernaturalism being somewhat of a question) because there is, as is always the case where political depravity is touched upon, religion and particularly the history of the Roman church, in Spain's history,
The Spanish Civil War, the invasion of the Fascists led by Franco that touched off the conflagration, was .. what other way to put it? - the apple of the Vatican's eye.
Spain had been the most Catholic country in Spain since the Enlightenment spread throughout Europe, leaving Spain behind with its dour observances, its feudal economy, it's morbid preoccupation with death...
And its many slogans ("Viva la muerte!!" and then crossing oneself was issued by officers to men) devoted to making war on behalf of Jeus and the Holy Mother).
But an object lesson: Spanish schools were entirely dominated by the Church... textbooks from the Franco years can be found in flea markets - and they are a wonder of the arcane, the backward, the lie.
Franco, the Vatican and bad, religiously partisan education!
A deadly triumvirate .
And a good lesson as well.

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by nmblum88 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:23 pm

Rob Lister wrote:The 'state' is in my interest, albeit barely. I shan't withdraw from it until the balance changes. Divorcing myself from it, while still living under and in it, is fantasy. Admittedly, the conjugal duties suck. I claim headaches as often as possible.
Funny.
There is no substitute for the well timed conjugally encouraged headache.... and until something better comes along, it will remain a mainstay of monogamous marriage and they way we live now.

Similarly the state shows no signs of a promised withering, as a concept, as a possibility.
So the more sensible goal might be for humans to try to work more assiduously and with more impersonal concerns within it.
As we can see around us, in our media, our entertainments in the behaviors and interests of our contemporaries and our children, on the internet in general and in this Forum in particular, there is more
indifference on the one hand to the improved mechanics of an organized society, and more intense nihilism.
I.e., the chronic nay-saying, the idea that nothing is reparable, or able to be improved, that while mankind is on a road to nowhere, changing directions to an improved destination is out of the question...
In other words, it is no accident that we are, in our popular arts, less interested or curious about human impulses here on Earth, but rather immersed in the zombie, the space alien, even in weapons of destruction no yet invented.
And thus the headaches continue to persist... nothing (other than worse) is on the horizon to replace them.

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: "The Spanish Holocaust"

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:11 am

nmblum wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:Heh, from the title I thought it was about spanish colonialism in latin america.

Peace
Dan

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Okay.... I get it now.
A "gotcha" gone somewhat awry.
However, I didn't make up the title of Preston's book.
Which is The Spanish Holocaust: Inquisition and Extermination in Twentieth Spain.
So whatever dissatisfaction, confusion, or irritation you are experiencing should be addressed to Paul Preston at the London School of Economics.
And I hope that clears the matter up, with the sad reality that there have been many Holocausts.
And that in fact the dark side of human history is the trajectory of one Holocaust after another.

NMB
Just made an observation that the wording made me think of something else.
No biggie.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert