A bible for young skeptics?

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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by nmblum88 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:58 pm

Lausten wrote:
JeffD wrote:What bothers me about "spiritual" and "spirituality," and the reason that I don't reach for those words as even second- or third-choice descriptors, is that "spiritual" and "spirituality" lack well-defined boundaries, and they carry with them the idea that there is some hidden realm or plane of existence
Keep in mind this is a thread about books for kids. What I liked about the definition was it did have a boundary. For a kid as yet uncorrupted by the many abominations of the word (if the writer of the OP is honestly reporting his experience) it seems like a reasonable place to start. A 13 year old should be starting to get some sense of being connected to other cultures, and should have heard that the universe has lots of carbon and hydrogen that has been recycled for billions of years and has hopefully felt the connection of family and friendship. They should also be smart enough to know that words have more than one definition, and people argue about what the definition is, but that is a separate conversation.

That goes for you too Norma. As for a glow on Moses' face, I clearly state that I am referring to a story. Bibles are available at your local book store and amazon.com, look it up.
Norma wrote:What you left out, for whatever your reasons, is that religion demands that you surrender your reasoning power to the idea that the story is not only true but connotes, imparts, some immutable moral lesson, by which men can live improved lives.
I left it out because that is not a definition, that is analysis of what the thing called religion has become, how it has been used. I make no judgment, because I am having this discussion in a context of teaching. If you Norma, were to teach, I imagine you would say, "Here is a horrible terrible thing that has wrought evil upon the world for millenia, but make up your own mind. Think for yourself, but if you disagree with me, you're are an idiot and will burn in hell, if there was a hell"
Well, Lausten... here's the thing: I don't blame you for imagining what you imagine, because clearly imagination, like atheism, is not exactly a concept upon which you have a firm handle.
I will admit that at this stage of my life I am still taken by surprise that there are still people who willingly put themselves out there to defend either religion as an intellectual process, as a support for a belief in the ineffable, of faith over reason, as well as the even more hopeless attempts to paint religion as necessary for societal good, when they are so ill-prepared to do it.
I can't quite decide whether there is a kind of quixotic gallantry to it, or they just like the feeling of being battered by lists of book titles they haven't read and and concepts they haven't fully digested because faith doesn't require it.
Why else would I seek out your sometimes astounding offerings and pore over them at such great length trying to first understand them as composition and then to possibly plumb them for their reason for being first place, as in "what makes Lausten run?"

I have never called you an idiot...you are NOT an idiot.
(I haven't actually called anyone here an idiot... it is not a word that I apply to people who have learned to type... my own skill being so minimal that I am in awe of how many people who think that there is a god and that he gives a {!#%@} for what happens to them have managed to master it.... But there you have it: they do, Another one of the mysteries that will probably exist to probe and pummel after the attempts by the religious to denigrate Darwinism have finally come to an end.)
The word I DO use for your attempts to slip in a little "maybe- there- is- a- god- if- you- call- him -something -else- talk" is "masochism" because I am beginning to think that you actually enjoy being battered by the responses of people here who have rejected your attempts from your first "Notes from the Sunday School Circuit."
Which masochism is an interesting tandem with the tendency to sadism that the purveyors of Revelation seem to revel in.

So yes, yes... there is something more than passing strange about someone who does spend so much time looking around for, and referencing so many inept explanations for why skeptics should surrender their skepticism to the sermonizing of people he (you) has dug up on the internet, or from the radio, or from television.
Or from books that you clearly have not read yourself.

Today's Mrs. Rabbi being a case in point...
(Parenthetically, another example of "not all rabbis are created equal."
Wanna quote a Rabbi on the subject of man's relationship with god, and the limits to the value of questioning his supremacy?. Try Hillel... or Spinoza.. Or the more contemporary Abraham Heschel... at least they understood that man was, is, will always be a complex and above all curious animal.)

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Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Lausten » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:49 am

Norma wrote:because I am beginning to think that you actually enjoy being battered by the responses of people
That would be pure speculation on your part. I try not to give you too much insight into what I think about you, you tend to misconstrue it anyway and respond with less than enlightening diatribes. But sometimes I do feel compelled to remind you that you are, once again, wrong.

<Added the next morning>
But, what you enjoy is obvious, unless you do an awful lot of typing that you don't enjoy.
Last edited by Lausten on Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Gord » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:45 am

Jeff D wrote:What bothers me about "spiritual" and "spirituality," and the reason that I don't reach for those words as even second- or third-choice descriptors, is that "spiritual" and "spirituality" lack well-defined boundaries, and they carry with them the idea that there is some hidden realm or plane of existence in which "spirit" or "soul" or some similar invisible essence or energy is prominent and separate from the rest of the "material" or physical universe.
I mostly agree with you, except I've never been certain about the last part -- is that always inherent to the term, or does it just usually apply? Someone should start a discussion about the meaning of spirituality sometime. (I would, but my understanding of the term is so weak, I wouldn't know where to begin at all.)
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Jeff D » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:11 am

Gord wrote,
Someone should start a discussion about the meaning of spirituality sometime. (I would, but my understanding of the term is so weak, I wouldn't know where to begin at all.)
Give yourself more credit. I think everyone's "understanding" of "spirituality" is weak because the word and its cognates are so elastic, so potentially fuzzy, that they can mean approximately nothing, or can be all things to most people.

Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart once famously wrote (in an opinion in an obscenity case) that he couldn't define "obscenity" but that he'd know it when he saw it. In a similar way, Harry Cohn, the head of Columbia Pictures in the '30s and early '40s, claimed to have a visceral, screening-room prescience about whether a movie released by Columbia would do well at the box office: "If my fanny itches, the pickcha misses."

"Spirituality" seems to be the thing that many people feel, reflexively or "instictively," that they should have at least a little of, or to say that they have, in order to be fully human. As in "I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual."

The single best written source I have on the nature, the elements, the character of the "spiritual" is a transcript of a lecture by a Benedictine monk, Brother David Steindl-Rast, given around 1974 or 1975. It was titled "The Structure of Mystical Experience" and it appeared as an article in the CoEvolution Quarterly, Stewart Brand's magazine that later became the Whole Earth Review. I made a scanned pdf copy of the article to send out to people (such as the folks on this forum) who request it because I could not find its text anywhere on the Internet.

Steindl-Rast doesn't talk / write about "the spiritual" or about the real existence of a spirit realm. He doesn't even use "mystical" much as an adjective. His approach is broader, including some concepts from Taoism or Zen perhaps, and focuses on what people feel, and how they feel, when they have an experience or a feeling that they might later be inclined to label (or which others might want to label for them) as "spiritual" or "mystical."
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Gord » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:27 am

Jeff D wrote:Give yourself more credit.
Noooo, I spent most of my teenage years trying to come up with an understanding, but came out of the whole ordeal with less understanding that I thought I had when I started.

"Sprituality" has a lot of resemblance to "art" and "music." I never figured either of those out, either. I can draw a picture and I can play my saxophone, but I don't understand art or music. :|
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by nmblum88 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:06 pm

Gord wrote:
Jeff D wrote:Give yourself more credit.
Noooo, I spent most of my teenage years trying to come up with an understanding, but came out of the whole ordeal with less understanding that I thought I had when I started.

"Sprituality" has a lot of resemblance to "art" and "music." I never figured either of those out, either. I can draw a picture and I can play my saxophone, but I don't understand art or music. :|

I don't know how and why the synthetic, undefined allusions to "spirituality" as some sort of desired human characteristic came from and at what point they wormed their way into our language..... probably to further demarcate the line between man (created in god's image) and animals (who were merely created by god).

Certainly it seems as if the designation "spiritual" denotes a reluctance to give up the concept of the soul, which is in itself a questionable result of religious rhetoric.
No one has really come up with a universally acceptable delineation of "soul" either, .. except that it THERE when it is needed to explain the inexplicable.
"Spirituality" doesn't have a resemblance to art and/or music, because being "spiritual" doesn't take more than claiming you are such... and perhaps staring into space a lot, and or reading Karen Armstrong.

The arts, all of them, music included are, on the other hand rather practical enterprises if you think about it: they both demand hard work, learning techniques, polishing them, actually sitting down to what amounts to laborious and often lonely, misunderstood effort.
(And that leaves out the mystery of proclivity, of inherent which is another subject all together..)
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Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Aztexan » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:15 pm

Spirituality is just self-awareness at a distance and whereas art and music are the creation of something out of nothing, spirituality is the creation of nothing out of nothing and passing it off as something. I think, therefore the Universe is fine-tuned for me and me for it.

And Gord, ya gots ta have some soul to play dat sax.
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Major Malfunction » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:58 pm

There are some pretty cool movies.

Hard to avoid on TV during Winter Solstice and Spring Equinox (opposite seasons for us Southern Heathens).

Of course, they're heavily censored for family viewing... Usually skip the bits about genocide, beastiality, torture, execution, child sacrifice, slavery, and who begat whom, etc...

And they all star Chuck Norris. Seriously. That guy never gets old. He's why Jesus hasn't come again. Because Chuck IS Jesus! Obviously.

Bible is R-18 rated. Let her read it, when & if she wants.

I read it. I also read a whole other bunch of mythology, thank Zeus!
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Lausten » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:11 pm

http://www.ted.com/themes/top_10_tedtalks.html

Ruben,
Before you decide that there is nothing that might come close to being labeled "spirituality", I recommend the above link. Jill Bolte Taylor's TED talk about the brain is worth 18 minutes of your life. She had a stroke, and experienced a sense of "oneness", viewing the world without language, without stopping to try to explain it, living purely in the present. Many people would call this a spiritual experience, mostly because they have no context for what else to call it. She was a very serious, type A personality, working on the science of the brain. To have someone who understands the brain this well go through this experience, survive it, and be able to reflect back on it, then express it both in an artistic fashion as well as scientifically is a great gift to this culture and this time.

We have two hemispheres in our brain. This is a text based discussion forum, so most of what you get is left brain activity. I agree that the word "spirituality" has too much history attached to it and will probably need to be abandoned to move the discussion of how we think and how we experience the world to a level that makes any difference, but saying that it is "nothing" is a dangerous direction. Just as dangerous as focusing on metaphysical questions has already proven to be.
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Major Malfunction » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:42 pm

So, you'd trust the word of a neurosurgeon that scooped out a random teaspoon of his own brain and was, like, "Whoa man! Awesome cool! I can see God, dudes!"

What was I talking about?
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Lausten » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:32 pm

Mal wrote:So, you'd trust the word of a neurosurgeon that scooped out a random teaspoon of his own brain and was, like, "Whoa man! Awesome cool! I can see God, dudes!"
Are you talking to me? If so, no.

That is not what Jill Bolte Taylor said. I can't remember her ever using the words "god" or "spiritual". I brought that into this conversation, saying that SOME PEOPLE would call her experience a spiritual experience, AND IF they did that, they would be doing it from ignorance. People throughout history have had these types of experiences where their right brain dominated, some of them due to epilepsy, some due to drugs, near death experience, others who knows? I agree that taking an experience like that and making wild speculations about gods is wrong and in many cases dangerous.

Those experiences also give us insight in to how our brain works. To dismiss their significance is equally dangerous.
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Aztexan » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:07 pm

Hello, Lausten

Forgive me, but my sound card fried on my computer a couple of days ago and I still haven't replaced it so I can't listen to the link you provided. I will by the end of the week.
I love the TED talks. I could get lost for hours listening to them if I had the chance.

As far as spirituality, it is "something" in that many people see it as something. But it is physically nothing. Much like getting up for the game, spirit is a mental thing, a state of mind. Please allow me another euphemism, but I see spirituality as mental ventriloquism. You throw your "oneness" out there and claim it merges with nature and nature with you. A biological USB port in and for our minds. Fine. I can see that. While sitting in my living room, I can soar with the eagles, swim with the dolphins or run with the wolves and really see the surroundings from their eyes. That's what I call spirituality. I can connect to God if I wanted to. I can walk on another planet or watch a supernova. And I would believe it to be as real as anything I have ever felt. Yet, no one else would. Why is that?
So, you were right that I chose the wrong words in saying sprituality is nothing, because if we want it to be, it is as real as our wildest dreams and fantasies.
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by nmblum88 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:24 pm

ruben lopez wrote:Hello, Lausten

Forgive me, but my sound card fried on my computer a couple of days ago and I still haven't replaced it so I can't listen to the link you provided. I will by the end of the week.
I love the TED talks. I could get lost for hours listening to them if I had the chance.

As far as spirituality, it is "something" in that many people see it as something. But it is physically nothing. Much like getting up for the game, spirit is a mental thing, a state of mind. Please allow me another euphemism, but I see spirituality as mental ventriloquism. You throw your "oneness" out there and claim it merges with nature and nature with you. A biological USB port in and for our minds. Fine. I can see that. While sitting in my living room, I can soar with the eagles, swim with the dolphins or run with the wolves and really see the surroundings from their eyes. That's what I call spirituality. I can connect to God if I wanted to. I can walk on another planet or watch a supernova. And I would believe it to be as real as anything I have ever felt. Yet, no one else would. Why is that?
So, you were right that I chose the wrong words in saying sprituality is nothing, because if we want it to be, it is as real as our wildest dreams and fantasies.

The thing about these flights of fancy that we (or some of us) choose to identify as "spirituality," is that they can also identify the drug experiences or schizophrenia of talented exporters of the written word... poets, for sure.
" A damsel with a dulcimer
In a vision once I saw:
It was an Abyssinian maid,
And on her dulcimer she played,
Singing of Mount Abora.
Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,
To such a deep delight 'twould win me,
That with music loud and long,
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome! those caves of ice!
And all who heard should see them there,
And all should cry, Beware! Beware!
His flashing eyes, his floating hair!
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise.


The words of one of the greatest (and beloved) poets in the English cannon.... a genius, a junky, and perhaps certifiably mad.
NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Lausten » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:56 pm

Ruben;
You are still saying what spirituality is, giving it a very narrow defintion, and then arguing against it. There is much more to it than just one's imagination. I am not claiming that it is anything in particular, and certainly not arguing for any traditional definition. I realize that sounds like I am avoiding the argument and trying to slip out of any attempt you make to pin it down, and your case, since you don't seem sincerely interested in any real discussion on the matter, that could be true.
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Gord » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:10 pm

ruben lopez wrote:And Gord, ya gots ta have some soul to play dat sax.
Nah, just having the shakes will do wonders for your playing.

I've been complimented on that before. "How do you get that perfect warble in your notes?" "Stage fright."
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Aztexan » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:31 am

Gord wrote:
ruben lopez wrote:And Gord, ya gots ta have some soul to play dat sax.
Nah, just having the shakes will do wonders for your playing.

I've been complimented on that before. "How do you get that perfect warble in your notes?" "Stage fright."
8-)
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Aztexan » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:31 am

nmblum wrote:
ruben lopez wrote:Hello, Lausten

Forgive me, but my sound card fried on my computer a couple of days ago and I still haven't replaced it so I can't listen to the link you provided. I will by the end of the week.
I love the TED talks. I could get lost for hours listening to them if I had the chance.

As far as spirituality, it is "something" in that many people see it as something. But it is physically nothing. Much like getting up for the game, spirit is a mental thing, a state of mind. Please allow me another euphemism, but I see spirituality as mental ventriloquism. You throw your "oneness" out there and claim it merges with nature and nature with you. A biological USB port in and for our minds. Fine. I can see that. While sitting in my living room, I can soar with the eagles, swim with the dolphins or run with the wolves and really see the surroundings from their eyes. That's what I call spirituality. I can connect to God if I wanted to. I can walk on another planet or watch a supernova. And I would believe it to be as real as anything I have ever felt. Yet, no one else would. Why is that?
So, you were right that I chose the wrong words in saying sprituality is nothing, because if we want it to be, it is as real as our wildest dreams and fantasies.

The thing about these flights of fancy that we (or some of us) choose to identify as "spirituality," is that they can also identify the drug experiences or schizophrenia of talented exporters of the written word... poets, for sure.
" A damsel with a dulcimer
In a vision once I saw:
It was an Abyssinian maid,
And on her dulcimer she played,
Singing of Mount Abora.
Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,
To such a deep delight 'twould win me,
That with music loud and long,
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome! those caves of ice!
And all who heard should see them there,
And all should cry, Beware! Beware!
His flashing eyes, his floating hair!
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise.


The words of one of the greatest (and beloved) poets in the English cannon.... a genius, a junky, and perhaps certifiably mad.
NMB
I have no idea how to respond to this other than "wow"
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Aztexan » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:40 am

Lausten wrote:Ruben;
You are still saying what spirituality is, giving it a very narrow defintion, and then arguing against it. There is much more to it than just one's imagination. I am not claiming that it is anything in particular, and certainly not arguing for any traditional definition. I realize that sounds like I am avoiding the argument and trying to slip out of any attempt you make to pin it down, and your case, since you don't seem sincerely interested in any real discussion on the matter, that could be true.
What was it I said that leads you to believe I have no intention of serious discussion? You're right on, but I just want to know what it was I said. But anyways, you digress. Spirituality, like faith and the soul, is an extension of the mind. Thoughts. Nothing else. Spirituality will not will away cancer. Neither will thoughts. Good intentions or bad. If someone says their spirituality cured their cancer, then no one can take that away from them, but it would be considered an outrageous claim. I don't make the rules. I just try to break them. But, trying to convince a spiritual person that spirituality is only an extension of the mind, a fragment of the imagination is like trying to convince a mental patient that he isn't Napoleon.
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Lausten » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:21 am

ruben wrote:What was it I said that leads you to believe I have no intention of serious discussion?
ruben wrote:spirituality is the creation of nothing out of nothing and passing it off as something. I think, therefore the Universe is fine-tuned for me and me for it.
ruben wrote:You throw your "oneness" out there and claim it merges with nature and nature with you.
And since you said:
You're right on
why do even ask? Do you think you are somehow hiding your lack of seriousness? Not that I don't enjoy your lack of seriousness, it is just weird that you wouldn't know that I'm picking up on it.
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Aztexan » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:13 am

OK. You win.
Though one thing I have learned at this forum and out there behind me, is that there will always be terms and phrases that pop up from time to time and we humans do one of two things. We fail to define the term or phrase or we disagree on the given definition and then proceed to make up our own rules and definitions. Spirituality is one of those words. I am guilty of not having a strict definition of it because it is one of those things that is intangible. I still lean towards defining it as only our minds at work but daydreaming of running around, free from everything that attempts to grasp it.

Have a nice night.
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Gord » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:54 am

ruben lopez wrote:Spirituality....I still lean towards defining it as only our minds at work....
Well what else would it be?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Aztexan » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:22 am

I'm glad you asked.

*cues the music and out comes top hat and cane


Sorry, I got carried away. It's become this separate entity. It's prayer in disguise.
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Lausten
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Lausten » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:08 pm

ruben wrote:OK. You win.
Though one thing I have learned at this forum and out there behind me, is that there will always be terms and phrases that pop up from time to time and we humans do one of two things. We fail to define the term or phrase or we disagree on the given definition and then proceed to make up our own rules and definitions. Spirituality is one of those words. I am guilty of not having a strict definition of it because it is one of those things that is intangible. I still lean towards defining it as only our minds at work but daydreaming of running around, free from everything that attempts to grasp it.

Have a nice night.
Whatever I won, I prefer to take the cash equivalent. I kinda won by walking away, so it is a hollow victory. I agree on two of the points above, definition of terms is important and spirituality seems designed to avoid definition. Also it is a working of the mind, what else would it be? You can't put one in a jar (although if you want to see a movie that does that, see "Cold Soul", pretty funny). At best it is a concept, at worst it is a big lie designed to manipulate. But, not unlike the concept of gravity, it is worth giving "it" a name and trying to define what "it" does and what can be predicted about "it".
A sermon helper that doesn't tell you what to believe: http://www.milepost100.com

Aztexan
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Aztexan » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:33 pm

Cash equivalent?!? What do you think I'm some kind of idiot? I'm not going to send you cash. I'll PM you with my bank account and credit card numbers later today.

I am just fascinated with how many names we give the same thing. The mind: AKA the soul, the spirit.

Reminds me of the joke where three women who haven't seen each other in years meet in the store. They start comparing how their lives went and came to find out each had only one son.
The first woman says with pride, "My son joined a monastery and they pray for world peace all day and night".
The second woman says with happiness, "My son is one of those new-agers and their goal is to become one with the universe and find inner peace through utopian nirvana".
The third woman looks down with sadness and shame and says, "My son sits around on his ass all day and does nothing".

Anyways, I enjoyed talking to you. I really appreciate the contributions that have been made to this forum since the LGOG forum and its membership merged with this one. I would have never known your voices exist and am extremely appreciative of the fact that now I have.
trump is Putin's bitch

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Gord
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Gord » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:30 am

Is this spirituality?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[Opens with Shadowy Men On A Shadowy Planet playing music, Bruce McCulloch sitting in a chair playing bass. Kevin McDonald appears from behind Bruce]
Kevin: That's the best bass player I ever heard. He's playin' so sweet, I'm gettin' chubby. You know what I like best about the bass player? His neck.

[Bruce bobs his head a few times]

Kevin: Oh, he made a little mistake. You may not have noticed it, but if you did, I think you'll enjoy my tale. Hmmm....

[Singing:] The mother, the father, the serpent, the priest. The foreman, the woman, the widow, the beast.

Hey, bass player. Look at the bass player. Look at that smile, there's sadness in that smile. Look at that chord structure, there's sadness in that chord structure. Look at him flail like the wailin' wall with nothin' but stubby fingers and a dumb look on his face. He don't know it but he's balding...spiritually. But everybody hates the bass player. No one invites the bass player to the party after the show.

Bruce: Hey, what are you guys doin' after the show? Oh, nothin'? Okay.

Kevin: If he does go to the party, he can only get the good looking girl's... best friend.

Bruce: Is Heather coming?

Kevin: [laughing] Heather...The bass player is the loser of the band, yes he is, if you don't believe me take a look at the one you're with. But, there's something beautiful about the bass, sometimes when I listen to it, I--I don't know, I get caught up in the swirl, I'm flying, I'm flying Ma, over a big beautiful lake. He's playing the bass and I'm flying. Sometimes when I land I'm in a different neighborhood, but that's okay, 'cause whenever I listen to the bass player, I always bring cab fare. But after all, aren't we all bass players? Aren't you all bass players? They told me this was a bass players convention, you are all bass... Pick up the beat, pick up the beat. Hide the sadness, and tap your feet.

Singing: The mother, the father, the serpent, the priest. The foreman, the woman, the widow, the beast. Aren't you glad that you're not one?

[Kevin hides behind Bruce's chair and SMOASP begin playing once again]
'Cause if not, then I don't get it.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

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Lausten
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Lausten » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:03 am

Just spent the weekend with a mix of believers and non-believers, from ex-Catholics to ex-Eckankar to hard to tell what they actually believed. One of them recently graduated with a minor in religious studies. She mentioned EERDMAN’S BIBLE DICTIONARY as a reference she used in her studies. Apparently it gives background and analysis of every verse. I haven't read it, but it's a dictionary, I would think it could be useful for passages that really confound you.

It was listed on this web page with lots of other references, including illustrated references. Maybe a place to do some research.

http://sacred-assembly.org/reference_books
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by Gord » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:10 am

Lausten wrote:Just spent the weekend with a mix of believers and non-believers, from ex-Catholics to ex-Eckankar to hard to tell what they actually believed. One of them recently graduated with a minor in religious studies. She mentioned EERDMAN’S BIBLE DICTIONARY as a reference she used in her studies. Apparently it gives background and analysis of every verse. I haven't read it, but it's a dictionary, I would think it could be useful for passages that really confound you.

It was listed on this web page with lots of other references, including illustrated references. Maybe a place to do some research.

http://sacred-assembly.org/reference_books
There was an old book I used to borrow from my local library once in a while, very interesting discussion and explanations on the meanings of the passages from the Old Testament: http://openlibrary.org/books/OL19785926 ... _Testament" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Unfortunately, the Winnipeg Public Library got rid of it. :( It was old and the spine wasn't in very good condition. I expect they added it to their usual book sales, and some lucky non-me picked it up cheap.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by jeanleryenierga » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:06 am

Bible is appropriate for those who instinctively or habitually doubts that inclined in religious matters. There are people who bother from many questions, and disagree with the assertions or generally accepted conclusions. For the young skeptics, they must teach of the lessons from the bible so that they can fully understand things.
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Re: A bible for young skeptics?

Post by vanderpoel » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:08 am

jeanleryenierga wrote:Bible is appropriate for those who instinctively or habitually doubts that inclined in religious matters. There are people who bother from many questions, and disagree with the assertions or generally accepted conclusions. For the young skeptics, they must teach of the lessons from the bible so that they can fully understand things.
Welcome.
For you to understand things you should stick around here for a while.
For instance, some people thought that Jesus was a dino, being extinct and all,
but further research shows that in fact he was gay...

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