America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:46 am

She owns the Royal Navy? Ha, ha.......................Not being able to break a bottle of champagne on a steel ships hull doesn't mean you own it.
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Cadmusteeth » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:49 am

bobbo, do you think it might be possible you're not in the right in this instance? What does the evidence say about it?

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:52 am

Cadmusteeth wrote:bobbo, do you think it might be possible you're not in the right in this instance? What does the evidence say about it?
Bobbo is "the new" Gorgeous and Tom Palven. Facts have nothing to do with his posts. :lol: :lol:

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:04 am

Well, thanks Cadsmusteeth. It all depends on what you mean by right or wrong......just as my position is based on reality rather than Custom and Ceremony. Matt says the Queen "owns" the Navy. What does that mean? HMS is on all the ships....but can she sell them off on her own authority? Does she collect rent for their use? It should be clear that any sense of "ownership" is not what is commonly meant by ownership but rather is "ceremony" for the tourists and the noobs. Meanings for words on paper from centuries ago superseded by reality.

For all the supposed "powers" of the Queen: what are the caveats? For any actual power, as opposed to Knighting some blowhard, in the main I do assume Parliament or the Prime Minister of some Lord Admirable or Council has to agree...........ie..........not a power at all as I would call it in reality.

What "real" power does the Queen have that is not mere ceremony and totally superfluous not really "needing" attendance?

My position is really not much different than what Matt has posted: OK: The Queen has all these powers: as long as she doesn't use them. I agree with that statement.
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Bobbo is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:24 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Well, thanks Cadsmusteeth. It all depends on what you mean by right or wrong
You are simply wrong as per usual. :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:......just as my position is based on reality rather than Custom and Ceremony.
You still havent read our Commonwealth Constitutions you complete idiot :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt says the Queen "owns" the Navy. What does that mean? HMS is on all the ships....
"Her Majesty's Ship" you complete idiot. :lol: :lol: :lol:

My father, a Group Captain in the Royal Australian Air Force is a commissioned officer, He is commissioned by the Queen, as it her airforce.. That's what the "royal" part means. When I prosecute a tax case for "the crown" I do so for the Queen at her court........that's why it is called a "court" or Queen's Bench. The Speaker in parliament's house of commons is the Queen's agent as it is her parliament and her government and her Prime Minister..

Here is HRH signing the new laws suggested to her by her parliament.
Red Box.jpg
Get Gorgeous to post for you next time. You really need the help. :lol: :lol:

////////////////////////////

"It shall be lawful for the Queen, with the advice of the Privy Council, to declare by proclamation that, on and after a day therein appointed, not being later than one year after the passing of this Act, the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, and also, if Her Majesty is satisfied that the people of Western Australia have agreed thereto, of Western Australia, shall be united in a Federal Commonwealth under the name of the Commonwealth of Australia. But the Queen may, at any time after the proclamation, appoint a Governor-General for the Commonwealth."

The Queen's current Governor General is Sir Peter Cosgrove
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:39 pm

I often use the phrase "its definitional" when discussing subjects. It means words/ideas mean what you define them to mean. Too many think words/ideas mean what THEY define them to mean as if there is no other way to understand them. They see the world ONLY from their own point of view. Religions are prone to this my way or the highway singular mode of boxed in thinking. In the main, I think this way too..........but........when I remember and start to actually THINK rather than just react, I remember that words and ideas have to be defined before any discussion/thinking progresses.

So.....I define power as stated right at the start: what you actually DO. NOT what words were written on a document 400 years ago and have no effect except ceremony today. Same with Ownership. The Queen does OWN several estates where she charges and collects rent from the tenants who she evicts if they don't pay. She OWNS these properties in every sense of the word. Not so with the Ships in the Royal Navy. She does NOT own these ships in any real/modern/operative/legal/normal/commercial way. Its all ceremony. I hate ceremony in all its forms........it makes me very derisive about the Monarchy itself....or religion. Ceremony says: turn off your mind and submit. I hate ceremony in all its forms. Even the tea drinking ceremony. Just drink the damn tea.

Can I be "wrong" in my position? Of course. Its all how you define the words.
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:08 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: NOT what words were written on a document 400 years ago and have no effect except ceremony today.
How sad for you then, that the Commonwealth Constitutions are modern and not 400 years old. ( You really should have checked your facts first rather than look really stupid and ignorant again) :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Not so with the Ships in the Royal Navy. She does NOT own these ships in any
You really are an idiot. The crown owns the royal ships and she is the current monarch who wears the crown. That is the right of succession stated in the Constitution that you refuse to read.

Australian Constitution (1900)
Section 2) Act to extend to the Queen's successors
The provisions of this Act referring to the Queen shall extend to Her Majesty's heirs and successors in the sovereignty of the United Kingdom.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Can I be "wrong" in my position?
You're not even close. You are making stuff about our Constitutional Monarchy, while simultaneously refusing to read the constitutions.

You are a dumb as Steve Klinko who is arguing about evolution while refusing to read one science book on evolution. You two are classic examples of Dunning Kruger Syndrome.
:lol: :lol:

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:15 am

HMS ( Her Majesty's Ship)
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: She (the queen) does NOT own these ships in any

Soooooooo........Bobbo. Tell us who really owns her majesty's ships in her Royal Navy? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:47 am

Use the complete quote.
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:44 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Use the complete quote.
Read the Commonwealth Constitution before telling us what is in it. :lol: :lol:

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:05 am

Oh Matt: my position is based on what "ownership" means. I have no plan to read the Commonwealth Constitution. Thats why my full quote should be given and not your diversionary mischaracterization.

I've already said if you want the meaningless Pomp and Circumstance of a Monarch: you are quite right.

Ha, ha.............I caught myself thinking "does she really own them" or only hold them in trust? Or does she do none of that and only the "Crown" owns or holds in trust and the Queen only occupies the position of Earth Bound representative of the Crown? But I'd have to read the stupid document ....and I don't wanna do that.
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:18 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Oh Matt: my position is based on what "ownership" means. I have no plan to read the Commonwealth Constitution.
Your "opinion" of what ownership means in the Commonwealth Constitution that you refuse to read, does not interest me. :lol: :lol:

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:32 am

Matt: you need to read more closely rather than spasm on the first snide remark you think of.

My opinion of what ownership means is based on common usage AKA THE DICTIONARY: and has nothing to do with the CC....thats why I don't need to read it. You are stumbling Matt.
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:15 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: My opinion of what ownership means is based on common usage AKA THE DICTIONARY: and has nothing to do with the CC....thats why I don't need to read it. You are stumbling Matt.
You are an absolute idiot.

The Commonwealth constitutions, that you refuse to read, use common meanings of words from the dictionary to define the monarch's ownership. That's why I have been quoting them.

Why are you so stupid?
:lol: :lol:

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:02 am

Can you confirm each element of the common definition applies?

https://thelawdictionary.org/ownership/ The complete dominion, title, or proprietary right in a thing or claim. /// When you "own" something you can use it when and as you like, rent it out, destroy it as you wish, will it to your children. None of these concepts apply to CC.

I've already agreed with you Matt: its ownership as long as you don't try to exercise any rights of ownership.

aka: ceremony/fairytale = not a fact as commonly understood.
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:55 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Can you confirm each element of the common definition applies?
Yes. Have you read the Commonwealth Constitution yet that you are questioning definitions of words? That would be a big fat "NO" right? :lol: :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I've already agreed with you Matt:
Go away Bobbo. You are an attention seeking idiot, like Gorgeous. :lol: :lol:

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:02 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:55 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Can you confirm each element of the common definition applies?
Yes.


so, you're saying the Queen can sell any or all of her boats to anyone she wants at any price she wants and that would be unstoppable?

Somehow......................just somehow..............I doubt it.

You see Matt, you demonstrate a lack of flexibility. You create a binary context where there is only your opinion vs wrong opinions. Its a huge weakness in your otherwise commanding grasp of facts and details.

I have already agreed with you that if you want to define ownership as done so in the Commonwealth Constitution that she "owns" the boats, but even there I asked what the caveats were as I assume that "in practice" she has never sold a boat? OH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I just remembered what I agree to with you: That Queenie has the POWER (ownership) .........as long as she doesn't use it." Yes, that is a good humorous way to express EXACTLY not owning those boats. You see Matt? YOUR definition of owning boats is the same definition everyone NOT using the CC has for "NOT" OWNING those very same boats. Other than whining that people you disagree with should leave the forum.......what do you think of that?

Ha, ha..............as if.

EDIT: Blue kept for binary context.
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:55 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:55 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I've already agreed with you Matt:
Go away Bobbo. You are an attention seeking idiot, like Gorgeous. :lol: :lol:
Ha, ha..........from puerile name calling to the truly disgusting? Well, a change of a kind with no additional substance........all without a hint of irony or self recognition.

Such is hubris.
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:07 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: so, you're saying the Queen can sell any or all of her boats to anyone she wants at any price she wants and that would be unstoppable?
That's right. She can also sell off the Crown Jewels tomorrow if she wanted.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Somehow......................just somehow..............I doubt it.
Now do some hard research Bobbo. How did Charles I, raise money to fight the roundheads in the English civil war?

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:12 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: EDIT: Blue kept for binary context.
No Bobbo. It is because you never could work out how the forum formatting works. :lol:

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:35 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:07 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: so, you're saying the Queen can sell any or all of her boats to anyone she wants at any price she wants and that would be unstoppable?
That's right. She can also sell off the Crown Jewels tomorrow if she wanted.
I agree........as long as she doesn't want to. Thats the mantra if I have my magic decoder ring set correctly. Good to be in agreement with you once again.
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:01 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: That's right. She (the queen) can also sell off the Crown Jewels tomorrow if she wanted.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote:I agree........as long as she doesn't want to.
What happened to Charles I when he sold off the Crown Jewels to raise money?

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:28 am

Heh, heh........."I assume" that was 100's of years ago? You know: times change. Anybody can do anything they want to if everyone else agrees. Nothing to do with a piece of paper.
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:49 am

King Charles I walked and talked half an hour after his head was cut off. Now tell me where to insert the full stop, comma and new sentence capital letter.

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:01 am

I can't do it. I'll stay tuned......for something left out?
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:39 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote:."I assume" that was 100's of years ago? You know: times change. Anybody can do anything they want to if everyone else agrees. Nothing to do with a piece of paper.
Well how easy it will be for you to show us the bit of paper, where, you claim the king assigned all his property and rights to some unknown person who now owns the Royal Navy.

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:50 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:King Charles I walked and talked half an hour after his head was cut off. Now tell me where to insert the full stop, comma and new sentence capital letter.
As Lance has correctly pointed out, the king, who wanted to return the UK to Catholicism was executed. Parliament then invited William of Orange, a protestant from Zeeland Holland to become king.

Lance lives in New Zealand named after Zeeland . I live in New Holland, which changed its name to Australia. :D
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:07 am

No one bit.

The correction to my statement with added full stop, comma and capital letter is.

King Charles I walked and talked.
Half an hour after, his head was cut off.

Amazing how a little punctuation changes meaning.

As Matt pointed out the right royal arsehole was executed.
I note how, in those barbaric days, royalty or aristocracy that got executed, had it done quickly by decapitation, while peasants were hung, condemned to slow and painful strangulation.

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:29 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:39 am
The deadliest export is not democracy, but military intervention.
Exactly.

Below, paragraph 6, the question is asked, "How can world leaders support a coup in the same of democracy?"
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 53356.html
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:46 am

King Charles I walked and talked.
Half an hour after, his head was cut off. ...

No, doesn't do it for me. I wonder how a "true" grammarian would diagram those two sentences. As stated, seems to me the word "this" is missing. Should be after after? Either that or replace after with later. Not saying I"m right, just what my ears tell me.
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:45 am

Tom Palven wrote: Exactly. Below, paragraph 6, the question is asked, "How can world leaders support a coup in the name of democracy?"
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 53356.html
Your article doesn't mention that Maduro is a dictator who arrested or disqualified all the opposition parties, in the same way the dictator Hitler arrested all the socialists. :lol: :lol: How is that democracy?


Reuter's Factbox: Venezuela's Maduro jailed, exiled or barred opposition politicians
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vene ... SKCN1G31WU

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:59 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:45 am
Tom Palven wrote: Exactly. Below, paragraph 6, the question is asked, "How can world leaders support a coup in the name of democracy?"
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 53356.html
Your article doesn't mention that Maduro is a dictator who arrested or disqualified all the opposition parties, in the same way the dictator Hitler arrested all the socialists. :lol: :lol: How is that democracy?


Reuter's Factbox: Venezuela's Maduro jailed, exiled or barred opposition politicians
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vene ... SKCN1G31WU
You hypocritical neocons lack any credibility, wringing your hands about Venezuela while supporting extremely repressive regimes in Egypt and Saudi Arabia:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/02/ ... 25120.html
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:22 am

TP: how many factors do you consider when criticizing any "world situation"? Do you diagram and situation?? Make a list of pros and cons??? Make a word cloud of relevant issues???? A list of what can be done vs what can not be done????

What do you do?
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:53 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:22 am
TP: how many factors do you consider when criticizing any "world situation"? Do you diagram and situation?? Make a list of pros and cons??? Make a word cloud of relevant issues???? A list of what can be done vs what can not be done????

What do you do?
I think that instead of assuming that each new "extremely dangerous crisis" is unique, I notice whether historical and current patterns are similar.

For example, the "opioid crisis" is not unique. It can be compared to Prohibition, which was enacted to decrease alcoholism, but instead increased alcohol usage and organized violence; and then the "Reefer Madness" scare followed the repeal of Prohibition, and then Nixon's War on Drugs, before the current "opioid crisis,"

Then, there is the pattern of the US overthrowing democratic governments and installing dictators, and the leaders that the US overthrows are always described by the US powers-that-be as being "just like Hitler."

And then, in economics, foreign governments are allegedly always being beastly to the US regarding unfair trade practices, and need sanctions applied to them, and so on.

I try to follow the money and ask qui bono instead of accepting the latest Chicken Little scare tactic at face value.

So, I guess I'm a skeptic and a bit of a party-pooper.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:36 pm

Every "situation" IS UNIQUE. Usually by time, place, people involved. NO situation is "entirely" unique in all its aspects. Usually by time, place, people involved.

I could dither on, but I'll leave it there. "There are pros and cons to every issue." Don't commit the so obvious error of considering only half the analysis.
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:43 pm

Tom Palven wrote: .....supporting extremely repressive regimes in Egypt and Saudi Arabia:
Tom Palven. You have directly posted your support for Taliban in Afghanistan as the "good guy homeboys".

You did this knowing Taliban helped Osama Bin Laden against the USA after the 9/11 terrorist attack, as you claim the USA is "the Evil Empire".

What makes you a very special idiot, is that Taliban is the same as Saudi Arabia.
Taliban jurisprudence was drawn from the Pashtuns’ pre-Islamic tribal code and interpretations of sharia colored by the austere Wahhabi doctrines of the madrassas’ Saudi benefactors
The Taliban in Afghanistan
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/taliban-afghanistan

You support Taliban's banning of all female education and removal of their rights, the amputation of limbs and death by stoning for minor crimes, the burning alive of prisoners and of course, Taliban's execution of opposition parties.

Why do you support Taliban? Remind us?
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:35 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:43 pm
Tom Palven wrote: .....supporting extremely repressive regimes in Egypt and Saudi Arabia:
What makes you a very special idiot, is that Taliban is the same as Saudi Arabia.
Taliban jurisprudence was drawn from the Pashtuns’ pre-Islamic tribal code and interpretations of sharia colored by the austere Wahhabi doctrines of the madrassas’ Saudi benefactors
The Taliban in Afghanistan
Then why does the US aid and abet elite Saudi royalty all the time, and the Taliban only sometimes?
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:53 am

I don't know what kind of idiot Matt will call you next, but by definition "The Taliban" are all Taliban...........while Saudi Arabia has some Taliban elements in it, its not all Taliban? Too easy to say SA is a Country and T is a religion/philosopy/political ideology, or that SA has oil and the Taliban has no toilet paper???

Stuff like that. You know: time, place, people? Emphasis this time on "People?"
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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:07 am

Tom Palven wrote: Then why does the US aid and abet elite Saudi royalty all the time, and the Taliban only sometimes?
Did the Saudis hide your hero, Osama bin Laden? No. It was Taliban. Did you forget again? :lol:

Who cares what the USA does? It has a clown for a president. Europe and other countries around the world have imposed sanctions against both Saudis Arabia and the Taliban. Didn't you know? :lol: :lol:

So why do you, Tom Palven, support Taliban and call them the "good guy homeboys"? Why do you support their removal of all femal education and rights? Why do you support their amputation and stoning for minor crimes? Why do you support their burning of prisoners alive? Is that because of your extreme conservatism?

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Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:08 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I don't know what kind of idiot Matt will call you next?
Why? What kind are you? :lol: