15 second Secular Christmas sermon

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15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:44 pm

God is unknowable, on this all religions agree, and science takes the same approach. Science can argue that some detail of the Bible or another is extremely unlikely, but it leaves the final questions unanswered. God still represents our highest desires, our perfect image of ourselves. The story of Jesus is an attempt to bring all our aspirations, our hopes and dreams, into one life. It begins humbly, and ends with him on a cross and a promise for coming resolution. In between, he spoke truth to power, he reconciled with ancient enemies, he embraced the widow and brought solace to the sick. Could any one of us do more?
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:58 pm

Lausten wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:44 pm
God still represents our highest desires, our perfect image of ourselves.
God doesn't exist. Our highest desire is to be left alone ((Ha, ha: Contra: or indeed yes, we all want to be worshipped for our own BS as well.==>good point!)). A lonely spiteful old man that demands worship for his whims: not my image, perfect or otherwise.

Just plain hogwash.

Jesus: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26

Just plain evil.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:14 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:58 pm
Lausten wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:44 pm
God still represents our highest desires, our perfect image of ourselves.
God doesn't exist. Our highest desire is to be left alone ((Ha, ha: Contra: or indeed yes, we all want to be worshipped for our own BS as well.==>good point!)). A lonely spiteful old man that demands worship for his whims: not my image, perfect or otherwise.

Just plain hogwash.

Jesus: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26

Just plain evil.
Or, you can find fault with any particular verse, mistranslated or otherwise.

"represents" as in, not actually physically a thing, but a representation. I'm talking about the universal concept of "god", not any one particular incarnation or mythological representation of it.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:17 pm

Gee Lausten: if that is your goal.........you need an entirely different vocabulary.

Plus...........not even near credible..............your reference is to the Christian God...........oozing rather than dripping of it.

Existential FREE man. no gods required or allowed........except in our good fellowship. "Good man, but he cheats."
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:29 am

I only reference Jesus as a character in a story.

As always, you are on your own topic.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by TJrandom » Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:26 am

Neither Jainism nor Buddhism have a god - so no, not all religions believe that a god is unknowable.

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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:43 am

I prefer living for my ideals than dying for them.
But I agree that the story of Marduk (or whatever the kids call him these days) is interesting to know.

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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:41 am

Lausten wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:29 am
I only reference Jesus as a character in a story.

As always, you are on your own topic.
The only "story" Jebus is in is The Bible,,,,,or do you have your own private story in mind? Kinda sacrilegious to belittle him/it/them in such manner? Having your wafer and eating it too?

If you want to be secular: go with Solstice Tales of mans rejoicing the Days are growing longer once again. These days, with indoor plumbing, doesn't mean as much as it used to........................
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:12 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:26 am
Neither Jainism nor Buddhism have a god - so no, not all religions believe that a god is unknowable.
It's a 15 second sermon. I didn't have time to say "all religions that include a God"
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:48 pm

Lausten wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:12 pm
TJrandom wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:26 am
Neither Jainism nor Buddhism have a god - so no, not all religions believe that a god is unknowable.
It's a 15 second sermon. I didn't have time to say "all religions that include a God"
You had time to leave out " on this all religions agree," but you posted a HIGHLY sectarian screed meant to oppress all those with a different point of view. As most religions/religious do most of the time.................except for the Janes and Buds.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:10 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:48 pm
Lausten wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:12 pm
TJrandom wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:26 am
Neither Jainism nor Buddhism have a god - so no, not all religions believe that a god is unknowable.
It's a 15 second sermon. I didn't have time to say "all religions that include a God"
You had time to leave out " on this all religions agree," but you posted a HIGHLY sectarian screed meant to oppress all those with a different point of view. As most religions/religious do most of the time.................except for the Janes and Buds.
You're wrong, but I can see this is important to you, so I'll tell you specifically why. I choose Jesus as the character in my sermon, because, um, gee, I don't know, it was Tuesday. The idea that using a character in a story is somehow oppressing all other points of view, hmm, maybe we should contact Hollywood about that. Maybe we should protest that Dracula is not presented consistently in all depictions, staying true to the original author and maintaining the original themes. Except, just what is that theme? Who was the original author? Was Dracula based on a historical figure? Do we need to contact that figure's ancestors? So many details.

You want it both ways. You want to scratch "most" religion from the landscape because of the evil that has been done in its name, but when someone who makes reference to actual historical documents that expressed a certain sentiment, poorly perhaps, in a circumscribed time, according to the wisdom and knowledge that was available at the time, translated to the best of our knowledge, well, we can't do that either. We can't take stories that are deeply entwined into our history and use them as symbols, according to you.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:11 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:43 am
I prefer living for my ideals than dying for them.
But I agree that the story of Marduk (or whatever the kids call him these days) is interesting to know.
Let me know when his birthday is and I'll see what I can do.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:24 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:26 am
Neither Jainism nor Buddhism have a god - so no, not all religions believe that a god is unknowable.
Awesome. Buddhists also believe that they can keep coming back into the physical world as different creatures until they learn to rise above all suffering. I'm sure that's very useful information for what I should eat to keep my cholesterol down and how I can help end chronic hunger in the world.
These factors come down to the five aggregates. In fact, the entire pattern of dependent co-arising is a map showing how the different aggregates group, disband, and regroup in one another's presence in a variety of configurations, giving rise to stress and to the cosmos at large [§212]. As we have mentioned earlier, one of the most basic features of the Buddha's teachings is his confirmation that the knowable cosmos, composed of old kamma [§15], is made up of the same factors that make up the personality [§213]; and that the interaction of the aggregates, as immediately present to awareness in the here and now, is the same process that underlies the functioning of the knowable cosmos as a whole [§§212-15]. As a result, the descriptions of dependent co-arising slip easily back and forth between two time scales-events in the present moment and events over the vast cycle of time. It is important to remember, though, that the Buddha discovered this principle by observing events in the immediate present, which is where the individual meditator will have to discover them as well. Thus the practice takes the same approach as phenomenology: exploring the processes of conditioning from the inside as they are immediately experienced in the present moment. This is why the pattern of dependent co-arising lists factors of consciousness-such as ignorance, attention, and intention-as prior conditions for the experience of the physical world, for if we take as our frame of reference the world as it is directly experienced-rather than a world conceived somehow as separate from our experience of it-we have to see the processes of the mind as prior to the objects they process. References in the texts to the larger frame of space and time provide examples to illustrate particularly subtle points in the immediate present and serve as reminders that the pattern of events observed in the present moment has implications that cover the entire cosmos.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:40 pm

LAUSTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You had a blank page in front of you and you start by calling a story about God/Jesus "Sectarian" as if the meaning of words are completely irrelevant.

Telling a "story" is totally NOT giving a SERMON. ..................Have you ever HEARD of the dictionary??????????????? You know: words have meaning....yours don't?=======>>>BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Heres a Sectarian start to a Yuletide story: "I was having my annual Yuletide Six Pack early in the evening.............so, I'm filled with compassion for my fellow man. While I moan and groan about my own failures and misses both wide and near, I recognize generally how lucky I have been, and I truly wish the same for everyone else, all while recognizing how much worse than myself too many have. Still, I would counsel to "count your blessings" as life offers the full gamut from good to bad, from better to worse. I try not to dwell on the bad, to maximize the good with hopes for a better world. We can all do that." No god, no religion, no lies about the same. Still........... a lot of BS.........depending on what beer you drink.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:49 pm

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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:06 am

Exactly.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by TJrandom » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:15 am

I once took a college Comparative Religions course, and as an atheist, it was awesome. It kept me from needing to go find myself, though at the time I was mostly concerned with obtaining enough calories for myself and my family, so wasn’t really lost. And it gave me just enough information on various religions to hold semiliterate conversations with those pushing theirs – without resorting to negativism unless I wanted to do so.

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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:45 am

Comparative "anything" is always worthwhile. Religion may indeed head the list, but the list is long and varied.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:42 pm

Susan Blackmore said the comparative religion classes they are now doing in England are an inoculation against fundamentalism
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:58 pm

Lausten wrote: God is unknowable,
I studied science and religion as a general education module at uni. The course made an interesting claim. When world religions had pantheons, a human could think "Well my ship sunk because of Neptune, but Juno is still looking after me". You could blame one of the gods and still respect the rest of the gods.

When monotheism evolved and replaced pantheons, a problem arose in that the one god was doing contradictory things. It didn't make sense. That's why humans started to question god and think that maybe god isn't real. I think this claim has merit.

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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:17 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:58 pm
Lausten wrote: God is unknowable,
I studied science and religion as a general education module at uni. The course made an interesting claim. When world religions had pantheons, a human could think "Well my ship sunk because of Neptune, but Juno is still looking after me". You could blame one of the gods and still respect the rest of the gods.

When monotheism evolved and replaced pantheons, a problem arose in that the one god was doing contradictory things. It didn't make sense. That's why humans started to question god and think that maybe god isn't real. I think this claim has merit.
God is unknowable is a religious claim. I assumed readers here would recognize that. It's a way to end any probing of any particular god. When used that way, it's a horrible argument. It's not an argument at all. It's just cutting off the question by saying the question is not answerable. It's claiming that the .0001% uncertainty is somehow support of the truth claim.

I bring in the science because certainty is not possible and we don't know how the universe was created. We know a lot about how this physical universe we experience came to be, but once you get to the beginning, it gets very speculative. So when talking to non-scientists, it doesn't hurt to agree that we don't really know. But as Aron Ra says, science doesn't know everything, religion doesn't know anything. If they try to take NOT knowing and turn it into some sort of philosophical form of knowing, I would not agree to that.

So yes, monotheism poses special challenges, as does each individual attempt to define a god. None of them are acceptable or even helpful as far as I'm concerned. That doesn't mean the pursuit is meaningless. We can still think about what might be and attempt to understand ourselves even though science can't tell us why we act the way we do. A world without myth and legend would be a boring world indeed.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:10 am

Lausten wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:17 am
A world without myth and legend would being a boring world indeed.
No, it isn't. What world do YOU live in???
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:20 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:10 am
Lausten wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:17 am
A world without myth and legend would being a boring world indeed.
No, it isn't. What world do YOU live in???
Maybe English is your problem. Granted, I'm using a somewhat complex structure here, proposing a future then stating something about it. I'm not even sure what tense that is. So, I really can't answer your question. I live in this world, so that's rhetorical. This world has myth and legend and is not boring, that should be obvious. Not sure what you asking after that.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:20 pm

I can order a beer in 28 different languages, but more than that, I'm stuck with English. And while we can always hone our skills, and I search out learning more and correcting errors.....I will take on the challenge of "wut?" on any opportunity: especially from an author who calls a story featuring Jebus "secular."

Complex structure? Where? Did you pick the same color font as the background color? Put it in the spoiler box and then delete it? Or do you define complex as any sentence with a conjunction in it? You can take credit if you will identify what in the sentence makes it about the future? Alternative includes but is not limited to nor means "the future." You can't identify what tense that is because you aren't using a tense. Kinda a clue there if you were more complex/reflective/self actualized??

We all live in this world, and in this world "I" have no myths and legends. I do not find the world boring at all, just the opposite. Myths and Legends too often act as restrictions on imagination as they occupy the same space that imagination otherwise would fill. Not often enough are they a springboard to something else, too often labeled heresy.

"He is a legend in his own mind, not recognizing it for myth."
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:40 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:20 pm

Complex structure? Where?
It's less fun when I have to explain it. "Complex structure" was an insult to you. You asked a question that didn't relate to the statement. Now I'm left with the choice of explaining that in more detail, or explaining how you've further messed it all up with this last post. You really are desperate for attention aren't you?
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:46 pm

I feel you bro.....as CLEARLY your statement is not complex AT ALL.........unless.......your are a simpleton.

Ok.......................nevermind.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:00 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:20 pm
I can order a beer in 28 different languages, but more than that, I'm stuck with English. And while we can always hone our skills, and I search out learning more and correcting errors.....I will take on the challenge of "wut?" on any opportunity: especially from an author who calls a story featuring Jebus "secular."
Sorry, I'm chasing some other idiots around the internet today, so it took me a while to get back to this one.

Definition of secular

Again, if you want to only use definition #1, you win again. You're narrow little worldview is the only one. But you limit your use of an otherwise rich and useful language. Note definition #2, it comes from how the word was used originally, that is, in reference to monks who weren't part of a specific order. This is still in use today.

More broadly however, if we can't refer to an entire class of writings, without being considered a fundamentalist, then we're screwed. Are you denying the influence of Christianity on Western history? Where do you draw the line? Gospel of Thomas, or Judas? If you can't refer to them, you can't critique what is being called Christianity today. You can't do comparative religions. You can't leave your mother's basement. Oh, never mind. Carry on.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by SEG » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:45 am

Lausten wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:44 pm
God is unknowable, on this all religions agree, and science takes the same approach. Science can argue that some detail of the Bible or another is extremely unlikely, but it leaves the final questions unanswered. God still represents our highest desires, our perfect image of ourselves. The story of Jesus is an attempt to bring all our aspirations, our hopes and dreams, into one life. It begins humbly, and ends with him on a cross and a promise for coming resolution. In between, he spoke truth to power, he reconciled with ancient enemies, he embraced the widow and brought solace to the sick. Could any one of us do more?
Yep, Jesus if he was the real deal could have done a {!#%@} load more. Seeing as kids of his time and two thousand years later were dying in their hundreds of millions from malaria gotten from parasitic mossies, TB and cholera, he could have done these things:

Told everyone he met to;

1. Clean up stagnant pools of water and make mossie nets

2. Clean up garbage and effluent

3. Wash your hands after you wipe your butt and before you eat.

Simply give vital information that doesn't even need any supernatural powers. Instead he argued with the Pharisees when he didn't wash his hands before eating and was rebuked by them. See:
Luke 11:37-39 New International Version (NIV)
Woes on the Pharisees and the Experts in the Law
37 When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. 38 But the Pharisee was surprised when he noticed that Jesus did not first wash before the meal.

39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:39 am

SEG wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:45 am
Yep, Jesus if he was the real deal could have done a {!#%@} load more. Seeing as kids of his time and two thousand years later were dying in their hundreds of millions from malaria gotten from parasitic mossies, TB and cholera, he could have done these things:
I'll never fully understand why people do this. Whenever you say something about the Bible, they say what God or Jesus could have done. I get the argument, that if God is real, this is what it could have done to prove it, or even if not proof, could have done it to help people. So what? Why bring this up now? It is the equivalent of my sweet oldie auntie who manages to slip in something about great God is to just about every conversation.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:10 am

Lausten wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:39 am

I'll never fully understand ....
I'll make a comfortable guess and bet that you DO understand completely and are just using this wholly argumentative phrase as a lead in? aka: you understand as much as anyone can.
Lausten wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:39 am

Whenever you say something about the Bible, they say what God or Jesus could have done. I get the argument, that if God is real, this is what it could have done to prove it, or even if not proof, could have done it to help people. So what? Why bring this up now?
Its all part of the Epicurean Paradox. We are stupposed to love god because he is all good, all knowing, and all powerful. If true, then why the conflicting actual sub-performances. It actually goes to: WHY are you mentioning god or the bible at all?
Lausten wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:39 am

? It is the equivalent of my sweet oldie auntie who manages to slip in something about great God is to just about every conversation.
Wut? Look Again....that is quite different........but just notice..... you have done the same thing here. Amusing you would criticize exactly what you do yourself. Its a ....................foible. Think about it........laugh, enjoy.
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SEG
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by SEG » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:08 pm

Lausten wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:39 am
SEG wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:45 am
Yep, Jesus if he was the real deal could have done a {!#%@} load more. Seeing as kids of his time and two thousand years later were dying in their hundreds of millions from malaria gotten from parasitic mossies, TB and cholera, he could have done these things:
I'll never fully understand why people do this. Whenever you say something about the Bible, they say what God or Jesus could have done. I get the argument, that if God is real, this is what it could have done to prove it, or even if not proof, could have done it to help people. So what? Why bring this up now? It is the equivalent of my sweet oldie auntie who manages to slip in something about great God is to just about every conversation.
You asked, "Could any one of us do more?" I answered, "Yep, Jesus if he was the real deal could have done a {!#%@} load more." If most of us here were in the same time zone and place as Jesus, giving plain common sense info about hygiene would have saved hundreds of millions of people. This means not only could we have done a lot more, we are also a lot more compassionate than a supposedly all benevolent, all omniscient demi-god that you call Jesus who argued the point about hygiene and even worse said it didn't matter.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:46 pm

SEG wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:08 pm
Lausten wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:39 am
SEG wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:45 am
Yep, Jesus if he was the real deal could have done a {!#%@} load more. Seeing as kids of his time and two thousand years later were dying in their hundreds of millions from malaria gotten from parasitic mossies, TB and cholera, he could have done these things:
I'll never fully understand why people do this. Whenever you say something about the Bible, they say what God or Jesus could have done. I get the argument, that if God is real, this is what it could have done to prove it, or even if not proof, could have done it to help people. So what? Why bring this up now? It is the equivalent of my sweet oldie auntie who manages to slip in something about great God is to just about every conversation.
You asked, "Could any one of us do more?" I answered, "Yep, Jesus if he was the real deal could have done a {!#%@} load more." If most of us here were in the same time zone and place as Jesus, giving plain common sense info about hygiene would have saved hundreds of millions of people. This means not only could we have done a lot more, we are also a lot more compassionate than a supposedly all benevolent, all omniscient demi-god that you call Jesus who argued the point about hygiene and even worse said it didn't matter.
By "one of us", I meant an actual human being, someone who is the product of their time and place. What you're saying is, a person in the 1st century could have understood germ theory. I never argued for Jesus being any type of god. I described a story written by men with character in it named Jesus. That story was written in the 1st or 2nd century, so it can't have a time travelling person from the future with actual knowledge that we now know in that future.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by TJrandom » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:07 pm

This is a really long 15 seconds...

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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by SEG » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:54 pm

Lausten wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:46 pm
By "one of us", I meant an actual human being, someone who is the product of their time and place. What you're saying is, a person in the 1st century could have understood germ theory. I never argued for Jesus being any type of god. I described a story written by men with character in it named Jesus. That story was written in the 1st or 2nd century, so it can't have a time travelling person from the future with actual knowledge that we now know in that future.
Ok then, if he was the same as everyone else, he would be just like everyone else and nothing special. What's your point then?
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:10 am

SEG wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:54 pm
Lausten wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:46 pm
By "one of us", I meant an actual human being, someone who is the product of their time and place. What you're saying is, a person in the 1st century could have understood germ theory. I never argued for Jesus being any type of god. I described a story written by men with character in it named Jesus. That story was written in the 1st or 2nd century, so it can't have a time travelling person from the future with actual knowledge that we now know in that future.
Ok then, if he was the same as everyone else, he would be just like everyone else and nothing special. What's your point then?
Have you ever wondered why the stories have lasted as long as they have? What about them is enduring? What about them is unique? Of all the possible myths in the world, why is this the one that last 2,000 years? Apparently not, because you're asking me what is so special about them.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by SEG » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:21 am

Lausten wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:10 am
SEG wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:54 pm
Lausten wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:46 pm
By "one of us", I meant an actual human being, someone who is the product of their time and place. What you're saying is, a person in the 1st century could have understood germ theory. I never argued for Jesus being any type of god. I described a story written by men with character in it named Jesus. That story was written in the 1st or 2nd century, so it can't have a time travelling person from the future with actual knowledge that we now know in that future.
Ok then, if he was the same as everyone else, he would be just like everyone else and nothing special. What's your point then?
Have you ever wondered why the stories have lasted as long as they have? What about them is enduring? What about them is unique? Of all the possible myths in the world, why is this the one that last 2,000 years? Apparently not, because you're asking me what is so special about them.
It's not the only one to last 2,000 years. Would surprise you that there were pre-Christian dying and rising gods, most of whom went through a passion? That baptism, virgin births and last suppers were common in pre-Christian religions? There is nothing new under the Sun!
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:36 am

Lausten: really?

You REALLY want to have the fact of longevity mean anything other than how such stories are adopted and have longevity?

So........I honestly inquire: yes, pray tell, what is so special about them?
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:19 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:36 am
Lausten: really?

You REALLY want to have the fact of longevity mean anything other than how such stories are adopted and have longevity?

So........I honestly inquire: yes, pray tell, what is so special about them?
That's some pretty simplistic reasoning. There are lots of stories from that same time that very few people know about, so longevity is not much of a predictor. I already gave you something special about these stories in the OP and more recent posts. A further list would just be more things that you would dismiss and use poor logic and misread me with things like "longevity", so I'm losing interest in you pretty quick.

I wrote Robert Price years ago, he had a podcast where he answered very detailed Biblical questions. I asked him if he felt the corn gods he always talks about really compare to the Jesus story. He said no, they are quite flat. Most myths of dying and rising and being born on the solstice are very short, and not much more than that. Some god comes down, appears to people, the crops grow, it goes away. End of story. With the NT, they say "it is written" and you can actually find what they are referring to, sometimes, not always. And when you can't find it, it's telling to find what was close to what they said and how they changed it. The upgrade of a God that required sacrifices, smited people and didn't save them from their own problems to one that you could just believe in your heart and you'd get eternal life was pretty smart. It brought a lot more people into the fold. Now, if it were just gaining converts, that wouldn't be worth much, but there's plenty in there about feeding the hungry, loving your enemy, and caring for widows too. And don't bother telling me there are swords and excluding the outsiders too, I know about the contradictions. That's the conversation that I consider boring, might as well discuss how Batman had emotional issues.
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:26 am

Lausten: I'll just say it: the Jeebus story is the one selected by small groups of people to promote. Like God and his sheep, it gives power to a few over the many. THAT is why it is promoted.....and what is promoted is what is believed. The NT wasn't even created until.....what about 500 AD? Not translated until 1500 or so and "Just believe in your heart" wasn't being promoted until the protestant revolution. 1000's of Christian sects each with their own specialized story with various degrees of hostility towards the other sects. IOW: there is no long lived consistent Jeebus story to hang your hat on, its something more vague, subject to whims, perhaps just aspirational, if not simply a rolling con. The Catholic Church isn't at all today what it was in 1700 much less 1500, 800 or 500...so if you mean what has persisted is a wholly valid desire for something other than the common drudgery of everyday life and people picking up the local version of the only alternative....I agree.

You are just keeping the con rolling by claiming what you do. Its all a fairy tale told to keep the gullible gulled. Why persist?
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Re: 15 second Secular Christmas sermon

Post by Lausten » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:52 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:26 am
Lausten: I'll just say it: the Jeebus story is the one selected by small groups of people to promote. Like God and his sheep, it gives power to a few over the many. THAT is why it is promoted.....and what is promoted is what is believed. The NT wasn't even created until.....what about 500 AD? Not translated until 1500 or so and "Just believe in your heart" wasn't being promoted until the protestant revolution. 1000's of Christian sects each with their own specialized story with various degrees of hostility towards the other sects. IOW: there is no long lived consistent Jeebus story to hang your hat on, its something more vague, subject to whims, perhaps just aspirational, if not simply a rolling con. The Catholic Church isn't at all today what it was in 1700 much less 1500, 800 or 500...so if you mean what has persisted is a wholly valid desire for something other than the common drudgery of everyday life and people picking up the local version of the only alternative....I agree.

You are just keeping the con rolling by claiming what you do. Its all a fairy tale told to keep the gullible gulled. Why persist?
Your idiocy never ceases to amaze me. Half of the things above are things I've said, so they don't make your point at all. The "believe in your heart" thing started in Jeremiah and was picked up by Paul. I'm kinda busy for a while but maybe I'll find those passages for you sometime. This idea that somehow there were a bunch of texts laying around and some committee was going through them looking for the ones that were the most controlling is the worst theory I've heard with regards to the NT. History does not work like that.

I didn't say that the story is good and then got corrupted or some liberal Christian crap like that. I said it worked as a way to gather more people into the fold, similar to what you say, but something that can be demonstrated, not your imaginary "small group" or promoters. I said there were sects, I said the story has changed, and I said what you agree with at the end. The interesting question is, why is this the "only alternative"? How did we end up with churches all over having the best real estate in town? It seems you are the one who is happy with a simplified explanation and not interested in questioning his own assumptions.
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