FYI

[Lausten]

I am no longer a member of the United Methodist Church, nor am I a Sunday School teacher. Please refrain from referring to me as such.

[vanderpoel]

You had a revelation?

[Lausten]

More like I just got P.O.'d My previous posts should pretty well explain how my theology is not 100% aligned with the UMC, so I'll let it stand at that. It's a long boring personal story. I'll look you up to share a Primo next time I am in Honolulu.

[nmblum88]

I am no longer a member of the United Methodist Church, nor am I a Sunday School teacher. Please refrain from referring to me as such.

"Blow the trumpets, bang the brasses!"
This IS news!!
Was it something someone said?
DId?
That you read?
An epiphany from god knows where or what?
An unanswered prayer?
And have you nailed your theses to the Cathedral door?

NMB

[Lausten]

nmb;
This in no way changes our relationship Norma. I have never felt comfortable or safe providing personal information to you. I don't expect that to change.
John

[Jeff D]

Lausten, thanks for the clarification . . . maybe these changes happened a while ago. Maybe you cover them on your blog, but I have not looked at that recently. I don't intend to press you for details or mention them again here.

This made me think of the interview that I heard with Anne Rice on NPR earlier this week, and of a scholarly paper that some sociologist wrote a number of years ago . . . Believing Without Belonging.

It also made me think of the time, almost 20 years ago, when Howard Stern asked Joe Walsh why he quit The Eagles, and Joe replied, "I'm the only one left. All the other guys quit!" [This was long before the very successful reunion tours of the last decade]. With some people who still believe but don't like what the church or denomination is doing at the margins or in the trenches, the same sort of "I didn't quit the church, the church quit me!" seems to be at work.

I know quite a few sincerely religious people who consider themselves Christians, and who at the very least do a very convicing performance of professing belief in a number of core tenets of the Christian creed, but who have grown disillusioned with a lot of the intellectual, political, and culture war baggage of the institutional church or sect(s).

Robert M. Price addresses this very well in his book The Reason-Driven Life, which was sort of written as a point-by-point refutation of most of the stuff in Rick Warren's best-seller. When evangelical or fundamentalist Christians who have been beset and upset by doubts (not just healthy and honest doubts) have talked to me about how unhappy or guilty they feel as a result of their disillusionment and growing estrangement from what was a close-knit community, I usually loan them one of my extra copies of Price's book. The title of the book is a little inaccurate, because there is more to Price's "prescription" than just reason and rationality, but I can understand why Price wanted to have a title that would trigger mental associations with Warren's book.

[Chachacha]

Thanks for letting us know, Lausten. I hope you are comfortable with your decision, and if you are looking for another organization/institution which better fits your personal beliefs, I hope you find it, and if you're cool going solo, that's okay, too.

Edit Add: I hope you will find another venue to connect with/mentor young people.

[nmblum88]

I have absolutely no interest in Lausten's religion or whatever epiphany or personal disappointment or disillusionment caused him to leave his church and his instruction of children.
And I never have... other than that he is a human being, and he isn't me... who isn't me is by virtue of that worthy of inquiring after: how did THAT happen? How did YOU get from there to here? How does YOUR trajectory differ from the infinite variety out there?

In Lausten's case, my curiosity .... and yes, my enmity.. (my life is never going to be labeled "hagiography") came and still comes from what seemed to be a habit (rather than the usual malice aforethought that the religious bring to skeptical/atheist arenas ) of explaining atheism to atheists and in the course of the lectures recommending skeptical literature to the skeptics...
For Christ's sake, is NOTHING sacred?
Is Pat Robertson going to start reading from "50 Voices of Disbelief..." while he delves ...with synthetic sympathy... into why disbelief doesn't sound quite so terrible when it is filtered through a Christian sieve?

Back to Lausten: I personally, do NOT respond well (at least verbally) to suggestions that religion is what makes people charitable (no need to point out the anathema incurred by hearing that it makes us moral) or even good.
To ignore that or even to respond kindly, is to acknowledge that reason not only can not prevail, but that it might not exist at all.

But the low point came when Lausten published for the assembly Julia Sweeney's itinerary for her performances in the mid-West...
Very helpful ( as well as hilariously funny ).... but WHAT was that all about?
IT was as if I alerted my correspondents to be on the lookout for local personal appearances of the aforesaid Pat Robertson...
One did have to ask, what can this MEAN?
What does this fellow have in mind?
And what next? Lausten channeling Robert Ingersol? "What Would You Substitute for the Bible as a Moral Guide?" .
Okay... it does make me laugh, and reminds me, of course, that life, with or without religion is somewhat absurd..
Except that WITH religion it is more so.

And for those who are sympathetic to such intrusions - by the way, please remember that I never suggested that Lausten refrain from posting here; I merely requested that he explain himself - that's fine.
I assume, as I can't really control my responses to such pin pricks of annoyance, that others can't help feeling sympathy, when that is the case.
To each, his own... and that certainly applies to how we, variously, view responses to atheism...
I have, certainly, no quarrel with sympathy no matter what well spring brings it on... BUT, .... atheism has, as a way of looking at the world, so few outlets for exchange or inquiry, that one cannot always entirely and/or lightheartedly shrug off the weirder and more persistent of the intrusions....
No stifling... remember.... I have no desire or intention to censor, or exile.
Come one, come all... but don't get huffy when called to account for what ... in Lausten's case... actually amounted to a mess of pottage
(as is found being served in Church soup kitchens... with our without a bible reading).


NMB

[Lausten]

Thanx much Jeff and ChaChaCha

[Lausten]

There is no one thing that led to my leaving, but this story sheds some light on it. It is intended for the eyes of those I recently went on a mission trip with, so it is subtle. I will be working on some more straight forward stuff later.

http://winter60.blogspot.com/2010/08/sa ... lesia.html

Briefly, another rather telling story, one of the evenings we were in Colombia, our pastor was reading some Oscar Romero, a man who went out into the villages of Central America and listened to the needs of the people. While we were doing that, some local kids were playing and laughing. Our pastor has some hearing trouble, so he turned around and sushed them. It seemed so obvious to me that we had come all this way, only to impose our culture on their's, instead of trying to get to know them. No one else seemed to notice.

I waited until morning to discuss it with him, and he said it was wrong, but didn't seem to get the symbolism or the irony of his reading compared to his actions. That was about the moment that I quit.

FYI, we spent less than an hour each day teaching Bible stories. Here is a link to the project. It is a little out of date due the project being stalled out because of some changes in leadership, but it is back on track and updates will be coming soon. I'm not offering this only as an explanation of why I joined the mission trip in the first place.
http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umcor/newsroom/ ... urefilled/

[Lance Kennedy]

I am thinking of starting a new religion.

Plan to call it the First Atheist Christian Church, or FACC for short. When you join, you are said to have gotten the FACC's. If you refuse to follow our teachings, we tell you to get FACCed.

Anyone want to sign up?

[Lausten]

FACCing A!

[nmblum88]

Lausten: There is no one thing that led to my leaving, but this story sheds some light on it. It is intended for the eyes of those I rece

ntly went on a mission trip with, so it is subtle. I will be working on some more straight forward stuff later.

http://winter60.blogspot.com/2010/08/sa ... lesia.html

Briefly, another rather telling story, one of the evenings we were in Colombia, our pastor was reading some Oscar Romero, a man who went out into the villages of Central America and listened to the needs of the people. While we were doing that, some local kids were playing and laughing. Our pastor has some hearing trouble, so he turned around and sushed them. It seemed so obvious to me that we had come all this way, only to impose our culture on their's, instead of trying to get to know them. No one else seemed to notice.

Hm.... "a guy named... Oscar.."
No matter how far, how wide I roam,when I return, I still have no idea what you are talking about, Lausten.
So just askin' : are you saying you quit your connection with your church because you thought your Pastor was imposing our culture (anything else?) on some kids in his audience?
Where ya been?
Ever read the Monroe Doctrine?

Did you ask yourself before you made the trip down there what else YOU YOURSELF could possibly be doing when you got there?
Given how little you know about the cultures you are invading... or even why you are invading them??

When your Pastor was reading from the works of Oscar Romero.. without identifying him, did you think that he was just some guy who was traveling around Latin American collecting sad stories?
Or are you talking about Oscar Romero, the Archbishop of El Salvador, who defied the policies of his Church, aligned as it was with the most repressive regimes in Latin America?
And who started speaking out against that Church's authority, as well as against the oligarchies that dominated Latin American economic and political life?
And who, 30 years ago, paid the price for his being on the wrong side of the prevailing power structure, AND the foreign policies of the United States, by being shot to death as he was celebrating a Mass.
Forgive my my intolerance but my feeling is for you and for all the religious "do-gooders" ("have faith, will travel to share"): if you yourself are so little prepared, know so little of the horrors that have been perpetrated on the people in those areas into which you wander, bleating god knows what to god knows whom, then you really don't deserved to be let off your own reservation.
Shouldn't you have at least visited a library before you got on the plane?

Maybe your Methodist Pastor didn't want you to know that a Roman Catholic (rather than an evangelical ) Archbishop, Oscar Romero, was one of the great heroes of the backlash against his OWN Vatican, as well as the American military and intelligence intervention in Central America in the era immediately following the US defeat in Vietnam.... and became a marked man because of his outspokenness on behalf of the pathetic peasantry that suffered the most during what was NOT our finest hour....
Now , if you don't want to check out what's told to you by your Methodist leaders that you are obviously expected to swallow whole hog, don't want to read about the horrendous years of American influenced history that preceded the murder of Romero... if inquiry through books or periodicals or talking to the people who lived through it is too onerous... entertain yourself: check of "Salvador" a film by Oliver Stone in the course of which, with more or less acceptable accuracy, Romero is removed from both his Archibshopric AND his life.... by assassin's bullets..

I waited until morning to discuss it with him, and he said it was wrong, but didn't seem to get the symbolism or the irony of his reading compared to his actions. That was about the moment that I quit.



FYI, we spent less than an hour each day teaching Bible stories. Here is a link to the project. It is a little out of date due the project being stalled out because of some changes in leadership, but it is back on track and updates will be coming soon. I'm not offering this only as an explanation of why I joined the mission trip in the first place.
http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umcor/newsroom/ ... urefilled/

I think I know what you mean about the irony of it...
Perhaps even less that an hour each day teaching Bible stories is less than an hour a day too much...
Is it possible that you have you propensity for goodness (that you are convinced is the be all of Christian existence) is just an inability to stop sticking your nose in other people's business?
It is sad to contemplate that the most significant thing in terms of possible social change that has come about in Central America is that Evangelical Protestant religions are making such strides in the accumulation of numbers since the upheavals in an almost exclusively Roman Catholic population ... for the most part based the issues of family planning as well as the fact that Protestant sects do not make some of the rituals of birth, marriage,death so expensive .....
But no matter what religious scavengers are flapping around in the area, their successes and their failures, one IS compelled to ask: hasn't organized religion made those people suffer enough, already?

So? When you get your own enlightened and emancipated gig going, your own sales pitch, free of the narrow minded pastor?
What then?
What more do you have in mind for them?


Norma Manna Blum

[Jeff D]

One of my personal prejudices (which I stubbornly think has some basis in fact, in our evolution as social and occasionally rational animals) is that ordinary healthy adult people have a "natural" impulse to feel empathy for other human beings in distress, and to act -- individually or collectively -- to help them. Another personal prejudice is that we human beings can derive a stronger feeling of satisfaction from acts of charity when the collective action that we take involves hands-on, physical action and direct encounters with the folks-in-distress. And that often entails acting as part of small groups (of perhaps 100 or fewer like-minded individuals). . . . as distinguished from, say, writing a check for a donation.

It seems to me that over the past 2 or 3 millennia, two aspects of human beings' capacities for empathy and charity (for "doing good to another in minute particulars," as Wm. Blake wrote) have improved: First, the circle of fellow human beings, of conspecifics, toward whom we feel empathy, solidarity,and generosity has widened from the immediate family, clan or the tribe, past the boundaries of the city-state and the nation-state, to potentially the whole of humanity, no matter how far away people may live or how "alien" their language and culture may seem to us. And second, as we have improved and enriched our collective understanding of human nature, human needs, and the variations in human cultural practices, we have gotten more effective at translating our feelings of empathy, solidarity, and generosity into actions that actually help improve the well-being of the people who are the targets or recipients of our charity.

I try to avoid criticizing human beings who travel in small groups to other lands and who do what human beings do naturally -- to try to help other human beings in distress -- but who may end up doing harm with good, or even more harm than good, because their intentions or actions or both have gotten contaminated or tangled or distorted by what I consider to be pathological motives (the imperialist "white man's burden" impulse, the religious missionary impulse, etc.).

It never surprises me to learn of some group of white Christian Americans mucking about in some developing-world region, trying to impart the true faith to their client population along with the Right Actions that build schools or hospitals or fill stomachs. When human beings are consistently indoctrinated, from childhood, to believe -- mistakenly -- that religious faith in general, or some specific brand of faith, is an essential element of ethical behavior and that spreading that faith is a sacred duty, the result should not be surprising. And as I say, I do my best to avoid criticizing the Right Actions of fellow human beings who act in that mistaken belief but who nevertheless manage to "do good to another in minute particulars," along with or in spite of the preaching and the proselytizing.

[nmblum88]

"Mucking about" says it for me...

(Until of course, some "muckers" mother demands that the US Marine Corps be sent in to rescue her "mucker" when the "mucked with" react negatively to his or her presence on foreign soil.)

But I do need a more extensive definition of those "minute particulars.."
I myself, although without bibles or anything as uplifting as a good bible story, have been given to the idea (in fact was brought up to believe) that one's "good acts" could and should change the world.

To find that that my idea of a "good act" might not be yours ( or most of the world's for that matter) and that you might react negatively to it for whatever reasons including just simply being pissed off at my standing on your "welcome mat" UNINVITED, is one of the great lessons of both adult life, AND of the Age of Imperialism.... an era that started while man was pulling himself erect, and persists to this day.

That we are slow to learn the lesson doesn't mitigate the truth of its genesis.

As an aside and from the annals of my beloved Peace Corps: early in the program, and quite famously, a young woman was sent home from (I think) Ghana, because somehow her shock at what she found in the Third World found its way into print.
She had complained, on a postal card to someone at home, of the filth, adding that "people here go to the bathroom (sic) right in the street."
Never mind that "going to the bathroom" is a purely middle class American expression that denies that body functions exist at all without indoor plumbing and indeed, "Charmin'"
But isn't the poignant tale suggestive of the fact that sending people armed with bibles and bible stories even if they are carrying cans of soup, or even medical supplies, in their backpacks as well, either completely unaware of what had transpired there to bring it to its present is both a dangerous AND foolish thing to do..
And the Peace Corps did learn from the incident: the educational process in matters cultural and historical was stepped up and improved, and of course, the Peace Corp did (and one hopes, still does) have very strict rules about religious proselytizing even in seemingly casual conversation which did show an awareness of the fact that religion is NOT a "minute particular" but a huge one.

Can anyone here give an instance where before the success of missionary endeavor great and life long animosities weren't created?
And where they still prevail?
Although in Lausten's case, the animosity applied to his own reaction to his own pastor's questionable response to the behavior of those he was there to succor.
And I guess ya gotta start somewhere.

NMB

[Lausten]

Shouldn't you have at least visited a library before you got on the plane?

My pastor provided an extensive reading packet covering many years of the war in Colombia and it's connections to Coca-Cola and Chiquita as well as the drug trade. It is a cliche, but I now understand much better the saying, "you can't really know until you experience it." Some reading that I doubt you are familiar with is something on the topic of "Liberation Theology", now known as "Latin American Theology". In end, I suspect you would conclude the same thing that I have concluded recently, that is a beautiful piece of humanist philosophy, with a bunch of God language plugged into it.

Underneath that however, what I discovered is a strong people with an amazing willingness to forgive their fellow Colombians for what they have done and start working toward peace. If the Michigan Militia walked out of their camp tomorrow and wanted to talk, I don't know if I would be so willing. Given how you treat me, I question your willingness to do the same.

Yes I know who Oscar Romero was and what he did, I knew it before the reading that night. When it came time for questions, there were none, so I asked, "Who is Oscar Romero again?", not for my benefit but for the benefit of others there that I suspect did not know.

As always, some of your analysis is correct, but most of the stuff where you try to figure out what is going on in my head is so far off I wonder how you manage to find your way to work each morning.

[Lausten]

It never surprises me to learn of some group of white Christian Americans mucking about in some developing-world region, trying to impart the true faith to their client population along with the Right Actions that build schools or hospitals or fill stomachs.

I don't think we need to reopen the debate about whether the United Methodist Church does it better than anybody else, I have obviously made my vote on that one. A couple little snippets of inside information though. I have been told, but have not yet figured out how to verify, that the current leadership of the Colombian Methodists grew out of a small group of Baptists who studied John Wesley and essentially "converted themselves". I know this is starting to sound like the Russian military saying they were asked to come defend Afghanistan, so I'll stop there.

You could probably look into it and find out that there is a Protestant/liberalization movement going on down there. Not that you would care.

The other thing I experienced directly. We took a 15 year old girl with us. She is very smart, taking all college courses. She doesn't talk much, but I get the sense she doesn't like going to church so much. When we all talked about our experience at Sunday service, in front of God and everybody, what she choose to say was that she appreciated that the Methodists went in to this village and built a clinic first. I did not get the sense that she meant, "because then we can convert them later." I think she has her priorities straight and it will be very interesting to see what happens when she gets out from under mother's coattails.

[Jeff D]

The vignette about the 15-year-old girl is encouraging. You are right: I really don't care about whether a Protestant Liberalization movement is going on in Colombia or anywhere else, unless the essence of the movement is a movement away from Biblical literalism, inerrancy, strenuous "witnessing" and evangelizing, etc.

The more bland monotheism comes to be in any given country (e.g., The Church of England), the happier I am, because it becomes more likely that half-hearted, habitual adherents will drift away into their own idiosyncratic, non-churchgoing personal faith that is either not deeply/seriously felt or not a threat to the rights and interests of secular human beings.

[nmblum88]

Shouldn't you have at least visited a library before you got on the plane?

My pastor provided an extensive reading packet covering many years of the war in Colombia and it's connections to Coca-Cola and Chiquita as well as the drug trade. It is a cliche, but I now understand much better the saying, "you can't really know until you experience it." Some reading that I doubt you are familiar with is something on the topic of "Liberation Theology", now known as "Latin American Theology". In end, I suspect you would conclude the same thing that I have concluded recently, that is a beautiful piece of humanist philosophy, with a bunch of God language plugged into it.

Underneath that however, what I discovered is a strong people with an amazing willingness to forgive their fellow Colombians for what they have done and start working toward peace. If the Michigan Militia walked out of their camp tomorrow and wanted to talk, I don't know if I would be so willing. Given how you treat me, I question your willingness to do the same.

Yes I know who Oscar Romero was and what he did, I knew it before the reading that night. When it came time for questions, there were none, so I asked, "Who is Oscar Romero again?", not for my benefit but for the benefit of others there that I suspect did not know.

As always, some of your analysis is correct, but most of the stuff where you try to figure out what is going on in my head is so far off I wonder how you manage to find your way to work each morning.

Privilege has its privileges: I don't HAVE to find my way to work each morning.
Work finds me..
But okay, okay... so you had no idea who Oscar Romero was..
No sweat: a lot of people don't; no need to beat yourself up over it..
I did however really enjoy your educational little tidbit on liberation theology.
Thank you.... it was like ... gee, I dunno... like getting a letter from Gustavo Guiterrez himself....
I fully expect that in your next post you will explain how and why you invented the wheel.
And I'm SO looking forward..

Norma Manna Blum

[Lausten]

But okay, okay... so you had no idea who Oscar Romero was..
No sweat: a lot of people don't; no need to beat yourself up over it..

huh?

[Lausten]

You are right: I really don't care about whether a Protestant Liberalization movement is going on in Colombia or anywhere else, unless the essence of the movement is a movement away from Biblical literalism, inerrancy, strenuous "witnessing" and evangelizing, etc.

And I try to be sensitive to that, and at the same realizing that you are not the only one who reads my posts, there are at least two or three others :) .

Hopefully you will find encouraging that one of the rituals that they are currently experimenting with is something they call "re-reading" the Bible. Rather than a traditional classroom setting with a lay speaker or pastor bringing the interpretation and only asking for input from the class as a courtesy, a Bible passage is read, then each participant spends an equal amount time, and is treated with an equal amount of respect as they give their interpretation. I have not attended one of these sessions, so I can't say how it plays out in the real world. I suspect people will tend to bend to the authority figure in the room regardless of the stated intention, but I hope to give a try some day.

The parable I have been focusing on is the Parable of the Talents. Catholics use this one to promote capitalism, sometimes handing out 10 or 20 dollar bills at the service and telling the congregation to go do something with their money and report back. Atheists use it to show how Jesus is cruel and casts out the stupid slave who hid is talent/money and said he was afraid and the master had "reaped where he did not sow". When I first encountered this 5 years ago, I didn't like either interpretation, I found an article that described the Gustav Guitterez interpretation, although it did not mention him by name. Over the years, I have discovered more and more Sunday Schools and religious writers who are discovering the same thing in different ways and posting it on the web.

[nmblum88]

And YOU responded "HUH?" to ME???
Very funny.
Norma Manna Blum

P.S. But wait!! What IS the Gustav Guiterrez interpretation?
And of WHAT?

[nmblum88]

Lausten: The parable I have been focusing on is the Parable of the Talents. Catholics use this one to promote capitalism, sometimes handing out 10 or 20 dollar bills at the service and telling the congregation to go do something with their money and report back. Atheists use it to show how Jesus is cruel and casts out the stupid slave who hid is talent/money and said he was afraid and the master had "reaped where he did not sow". When I first encountered this 5 years ago, I didn't like either interpretation, I found an article that described the Gustav Guitterez interpretation, although it did not mention him by name. Over the years, I have discovered more and more Sunday Schools and religious writers who are discovering the same thing in different ways and posting it on the web.

No kidding?
It's very hard to believe that a Church that has perpetuated itself and its power with such aplomb and such Machiavellian sophistication for the last 1700 plus years, would engage in such a laughable enterprise.
But WHEN and WHERE did the Catholic Church engage in such fun and games?
(Who knew that the church has such a sense of good old-fashioned fun!!)
Not to challenge your awareness of the dynamics of economics..(so that you could repeat yet another myth) but there is little correlation to be found between 20 bucks or even a million Soviet rubles spent in the market place, and the promotion and/or the understanding of capitalism.
Believe it or not, and even with its dismal, even fatal failures, the marketplace exists no matter the economic system within which one finds oneself.... even in gloomy, pathetic East Germany before reunification, under as byzantine and failed an economic system as has ever existed... people worked, got paid, and took their earnings (or their play currency from their church) into the market place to see what they could best secure with their available money.
Not only necessities, but whatever items were available that might enhance and make brighter their lives..
The government didn't MAKE anyone buy tomatoes.
Exactly as money is used here.... think of an employee of GM taking his paycheck to Walmart...
There isn't much of a lesson there on Capitalism of course: no one can really compete with the buying power of Wal-mart, and the fact that in some areas of America, Wal-mart represents not only the largest employer in the US, but for them, to all intents and purposes, the ONLY employer within miles.
So if the Catholic church ever did engage in anything so bizarre (are you sure you weren't reading one of those Reformist tomes that describe the orgies and venality (and what appears to be a stupidity) that take place in the Vatican basement?) they were at least giving the money TO the parishioners instead of taking it away.
Enough on THAT one!!
Now about those atheists who use the Parable of the Talents to illustrate the less than perfect or saintly qualities of one Jesus!
I will accede that you know more atheists and more about atheism and its discontents than I do.... given the restrictions of my intellect and poor knowledge of post Reformation history, BUT... Lausten, for Christ's sake, pull yourself together for at least as long as it takes to verify where and how you know any such ridiculous waste of time to be the case!!
Not that there might not be an atheist out there actively pondering the Parable of the Talents, and concluding something from it on the nature of Jesus (rather than the nature of Christianity).
But I never met one...
I have however, met a great number of atheists who have concluded that whether or not an historic Jesus actually existed at all, most of the parables in the New Testament are directed at instilling obedience to authority .....
And lastly... i do understand that you DON'T understand, and that there is something called "the polemical tic..."
We all have it, the religious certainly and the non religious as well... it has to be reckoned with.
However, your response to Jeff... who seems to not only understand you but to respect you as well, was in itself a sermon from the vantage point of the Christian... or some facsimile thereof.
I no longer think you do it on purpose.... you are a missionary, your activities are missionary activities, you can't help yourself.
But why you want to do it here where your efforts after a year are clearly wasted...... well, that's beyond my meager powers of comprehension.
It is too facile to even suggest that masochism is at the root of the proselytizing (and sadism has been, over the ages, already suggested to a fault).
So I won't do that.
Norma Manna Blum