Benny Hinn Fan

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Benny Hinn Fan

Post by SEG » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:51 pm

How do you talk someone out of believing in faith healers like Benny Hinn? Or is it the same as talking someone out of believing in God, a lost cause if they are too indoctrinated?
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:54 pm

You won't save everybody. Some people don't want to be saved. Just shoot them.
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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Monster » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:07 am

SEG wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:51 pm
How do you talk someone out of believing in faith healers like Benny Hinn? Or is it the same as talking someone out of believing in God, a lost cause if they are too indoctrinated?
You have to start a little at a time. Start with some skeptical material that doesn’t assail his identity.
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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by SEG » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:20 am

Monster wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:07 am
SEG wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:51 pm
How do you talk someone out of believing in faith healers like Benny Hinn? Or is it the same as talking someone out of believing in God, a lost cause if they are too indoctrinated?
You have to start a little at a time. Start with some skeptical material that doesn’t assail his identity.
Good advice monster. I might have to back off as I tried to get him to listen to this youtube documentary in the car that I converted to MP3, and he got angry with me, saying why do I always show the negative stuff to him?

I thought the doco was pretty tame and listed some good reasons why it's ethically wrong to give desperate people false hope, but he took it as an attack on him personally. Have you got any material in mind?
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by SEG » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:22 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:54 pm
You won't save everybody. Some people don't want to be saved. Just shoot them.
Lol! He gives some really bad arguments, such as, "just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean that it's not true!"
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:58 am

Skilled debater, that one.
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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:50 am

SEG wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:51 pm
How do you talk someone out of believing in faith healers like Benny Hinn? Or is it the same as talking someone out of believing in God, a lost cause if they are too indoctrinated?
I decided to suppress the desire to talk to them years ago. They won't learn; some of them, especially those in isolated cults, will continue to believe even after burying two or three of their own children who died of medical neglect.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by SEG » Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:42 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:50 am
SEG wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:51 pm
How do you talk someone out of believing in faith healers like Benny Hinn? Or is it the same as talking someone out of believing in God, a lost cause if they are too indoctrinated?
I decided to suppress the desire to talk to them years ago. They won't learn; some of them, especially those in isolated cults, will continue to believe even after burying two or three of their own children who died of medical neglect.
Yes, it's probably only the ones on the fence that will budge. In the doco I posted, Benny Hinn not only failed to save a terminally ill kid, he guilted the parents into accepting that it was their fault from "sinning" passed down even from their 2nd or 3rd generations. He was blameless according to them.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Monster » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:28 pm

SEG wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:20 am
Good advice monster. I might have to back off as I tried to get him to listen to this youtube documentary in the car that I converted to MP3, and he got angry with me, saying why do I always show the negative stuff to him?

I thought the doco was pretty tame and listed some good reasons why it's ethically wrong to give desperate people false hope, but he took it as an attack on him personally. Have you got any material in mind?
Sort of. You can start by showing him stuff that has nothing to do with religion. For example, James Randi in Australia debunking dowsing.

The stuff to show him right before assailing his identity again, is to show him some videos of magicians and how they do their tricks. And perhaps, when you want to attack faith healers, avoid Benny Hinn, and perhaps stuff that happens in the US, completely. Only after all of that, show him some more stuff critical of Benny Hinn.



EDIT: It's been a long time since I watched that Randi video. I don't know if he attacks faith healers in that. You'll need to watch that whole video before showing it to your buddy.
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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:24 pm

Randi wrote a whole book on the faith healers. He went on the Tonight Show in 1986 and presented ironclad, videotaped proof that the aptly named Peter Popoff was getting his messages "from the Holy Spirit" through an earpiece that was picking up what his wife was reading into a short-range radio backstage, off the "prayer cards" that people filled out when they came into the tent. Popoff refused to back down. Eventually, he won, even though he had to modify his pitch. He's still out there at the old stand, peddling miracles. You have to ask how such a morally vacuous person can live with himself. Is it really the case that the only thing that matters to him is getting money? He surely knows himself that he is deceiving people.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Walter » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:13 pm

How do you talk someone out of believing that a third party (government) can heal someone like me of his transgressions? Or is it the same as talking someone out of believing in the State, a lost cause if they are too indoctrinated?

You can’t. I could never talk my sisters out of believing that government can heal my brother and me of our sinful thinking and behavior. They were indoctrinated into authoritarianism (using agents of government to return lost souls to the fold) long ago.

My sisters respected me when I was a federal employee with the National Cancer Institute in the 1970s. In the 24 years I have owned my own testing lab, they have never asked how business was going. Funny.

And they have never thanked my brother and me for having no desire to use that same 3rd party to force them to do anything. No thanks. No respect. No love.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by SEG » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:21 pm

Walter wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:13 pm
How do you talk someone out of believing that a third party (government) can heal someone like me of his transgressions? Or is it the same as talking someone out of believing in the State, a lost cause if they are too indoctrinated?

You can’t. I could never talk my sisters out of believing that government can heal my brother and me of our sinful thinking and behavior. They were indoctrinated into authoritarianism (using agents of government to return lost souls to the fold) long ago.

My sisters respected me when I was a federal employee with the National Cancer Institute in the 1970s. In the 24 years I have owned my own testing lab, they have never asked how business was going. Funny.

And they have never thanked my brother and me for having no desire to use that same 3rd party to force them to do anything. No thanks. No respect. No love.
That's a shame Walter. I don't even know you, but how is your business going and what do you test? What do you mean when you say, "I could never talk my sisters out of believing that government can heal my brother and me of our sinful thinking and behavior."?
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:26 pm

SEG wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:21 pm
That's a shame Walter. I don't even know you, but how is your business going and what do you test? What do you mean when you say, "I could never talk my sisters out of believing that government can heal my brother and me of our sinful thinking and behavior."?
Excellent question, SEG! I too was baffled by the language in that statement. How can any actual set of events be described in such language?
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by SEG » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:21 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:26 pm
SEG wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:21 pm
That's a shame Walter. I don't even know you, but how is your business going and what do you test? What do you mean when you say, "I could never talk my sisters out of believing that government can heal my brother and me of our sinful thinking and behavior."?
Excellent question, SEG! I too was baffled by the language in that statement. How can any actual set of events be described in such language?
Maybe Walter's a Christian who is trying to establish a connection between government authority and religious indoctrination, but ends up with a False Equivalence? I really don't know.
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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Walter » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:03 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:26 pm
Excellent question, SEG! I too was baffled by the language in that statement. How can any actual set of events be described in such language?
This is a little scary, but I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that you, while baffled, might understand, even if just a tiny bit.

The reason for this guess is that you quote Frederic Bastiat. He is also mentioned, along with Adam Smith, Milton Friedman, Ludwig von Mises and F.A. Hayek, in Henry Hazlitt’s Economics in One Lesson.

While my sisters and I find common ground with respect to religious authoritarianism, we part ways with respect to the secular kind.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:33 pm

Walter: I for one still don't follow you. "The Government" doesn't cure anyone of anything unless you mean jail for violating the law....or maybe involuntary confinement if a danger to yourself? You don't mean THAT I assume.......so a bit more info? Even to the point of explaining what your are referring to by religous authoritarianism curing anyone of anything? They've been sued and lost for acting in that manner across many religions and issues. "Faith" is fine.....until you kill your kiddies with it.
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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Walter » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:02 pm

SEG wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:21 pm
Maybe Walter's a Christian who is trying to establish a connection between government authority and religious indoctrination, but ends up with a False Equivalence? I really don't know.
I am a None, like most members here. However, I am married to a practicing Roman Catholic (not really Christian, but close). And I admit to doing yucky stuff like making casseroles for the poor.

Like atheism, anarchy (not hooliganism) and individualism are the default conditions of the human species. We are then indoctrinated, at a young age or in college, into philosophies which are diametrically opposed to these defaults. Defense of the default conditions is not required.

Secular and religious authoritarians simply wear different robes.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:25 pm

Walter wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:03 pm
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:26 pm
Excellent question, SEG! I too was baffled by the language in that statement. How can any actual set of events be described in such language?
This is a little scary, but I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that you, while baffled, might understand, even if just a tiny bit.

The reason for this guess is that you quote Frederic Bastiat. He is also mentioned, along with Adam Smith, Milton Friedman, Ludwig von Mises and F.A. Hayek, in Henry Hazlitt’s Economics in One Lesson.

While my sisters and I find common ground with respect to religious authoritarianism, we part ways with respect to the secular kind.
Actually, I don't understand, even a tiny bit. The quotation had to do with whether or not the government could cure people of sinfulness. In what universe is that even an option? I've never heard anybody make anything remotely approaching that claim. The strongest church-state claim I know of is Saint Paul's assertion that Christians must obey all the civil authorities, because ALL authority is instituted by God to punish wrongdoers. "He beareth not the sword in vain." But punishing wrongdoers is done to protect OTHER people, NOT to cure the wrongdoers of their sin. (It's significant that Paul was referring to the despotic Roman Empire of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, one of the most oppressive in all of human history. I don't regard this as the sagest piece of advice he ever gave. But, considering that it might reach the eyes and ears of Caesar, it was probably one of the most prudent statements he ever made.)

So, no. I can't make any sense out of the original statement, and hardly any more out of the phrase "secular authoritarianism." We need some examples of what you are talking about. Certainly the Communists in Russia and the Nazis in Germany were secular authoritarians, but I'd have trouble locating anyone who would defend them.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Gord » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:06 pm

Walter wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:02 pm
...I admit to doing yucky stuff like making casseroles for the poor.
Ew. Why not make tastier stuff for the poor instead, like pizza or fried chicken?
Like atheism, anarchy (not hooliganism) and individualism are the default conditions of the human species.
Disagree! Social interactions are inherent to the species. We form groups naturally. Individualism is only one component of our complex nature.
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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:53 am

Individualism is not inconsistent with or counter to highly intermeshed social behavior. Its what is going on in the inside while we outside relate to everyone else. its not being physically isolated. Theres a better word for it, but the closest I can get to it right now is rogue or bachelor...as in elephants.
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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by SEG » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:43 am

Walter wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:02 pm
I am a None, like most members here.
Congrats on your rationalism!
However, I am married to a practicing Roman Catholic (not really Christian, but close).
I was too, but I gave her the good word and she is now a devout atheist like moi.
And I admit to doing yucky stuff like making casseroles for the poor.
Congrats again on helping the less fortunate!
Like atheism, anarchy (not hooliganism) and individualism are the default conditions of the human species.
I agree with the default re atheism, but not so for anarchy and individualism, although most incorporate those traits in their personalities.
We are then indoctrinated,

Some are in some ways
Defense of the default conditions is not required.
Sorry, you lost me.
Secular and religious authoritarians simply wear different robes.
Could you expand on this?
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Walter » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:43 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:25 pm
Actually, I don't understand, even a tiny bit.
You might have taken me literally. My transgressions and sins, like those of my brother, are things like individualism, anarchy, minimalism, capitalism, freedom of association and individual liberty.

If your quote had not been attributed to Bastiat, I would have guessed Thomas Sowell. People like Sowell, von Mises and Hazlitt discuss government the same way religion is discussed here.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Walter » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:55 pm

Gord wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:06 pm
Disagree! Social interactions are inherent to the species. We form groups naturally. Individualism is only one component of our complex nature.
One could say that voluntary cooperation and collaboration with others are components of individualism. The pig farmer may decide to cooperate with the cabinet maker, and may even desire to collaborate. Or not.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Walter » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:24 pm

SEG wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:43 am
Congrats on your rationalism!
Thank you. I grew up as a Presbyterian.
SEG wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:43 am
I was too, but I gave her the good word and she is now a devout atheist like moi.
Neither one of us, in 35 years, has made an attempt to convert the other. We respect each other in that way. I have also been in two choirs (token non-Catholic), attending Mass more than most Catholics.
SEG wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:43 am
Congrats again on helping the less fortunate!
I spend 18 hours per year making casseroles for the poor. If not married to a practicing Catholic, it would likely be zero hours.
SEG wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:43 am
I agree with the default re atheism, but not so for anarchy and individualism, although most incorporate those traits in their personalities.

See above post.
SEG wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:43 am
Sorry, you lost me.
One does not have to defend atheism or lack of religion. The same can be said for anarchy and liberty.

Think of it this way. The history of science and technology is the history of individuals, be they scientists, engineers or just regular people who like to tinker. Now, many of these individuals were likely supported by other individuals, similar to Peter Tchaikovsky and his patroness Nadezdha von Meck.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Walter » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:46 pm

SEG wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:43 am
Walter wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:02 pm
Secular and religious authoritarians simply wear different robes.
Could you expand on this?
Think of a politician standing on a stage talking about the wonders of government charity. In front of him are thousands of cheering poor people with arms raised, many weeping. What is sad or funny, depending on your point of view, is that their parents and grandparents were poor in 1964.

That nice little 54 year old government charity has an administrative cost of 85-90%, materially benefiting those who have worked for the charity. We shrug our shoulders. But, we get our panties in a wad over Benny Hinn.

Too Funny.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Walter » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:49 pm

I screwed up the quotes in that last post, but I figure people will be able to figure it out.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Walter » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:22 pm

SEG wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:43 am
Walter wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:02 pm
Secular and religious authoritarians simply wear different robes.
Could you expand on this?
Think of a politician standing on a stage talking about the wonders of government charity. In front of him are thousands of cheering poor people with arms raised, many weeping. What is sad or funny, depending on your point of view, is that their parents and grandparents were poor in 1964.

That nice little 54 year old government charity has an administrative cost of 85-90%, materially benefiting those who have worked for the charity. We shrug our shoulders. But, we get our panties in a wad over Benny Hinn.

Too Funny.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:32 pm

Walter wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:43 pm
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:25 pm
Actually, I don't understand, even a tiny bit.
You might have taken me literally. My transgressions and sins, like those of my brother, are things like individualism, anarchy, minimalism, capitalism, freedom of association and individual liberty.
Ah yes, that's exactly what happened. "Sin" has overwhelmingly been thought of a associated with one's individual, interpersonal actions. Collective sin is a very modern concept that really hasn't caught on yet, and no one actually feels as guilty about the sins of his country as he does about his personal transgressions.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by SEG » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:00 am

Walter wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:22 pm
Think of a politician standing on a stage talking about the wonders of government charity. In front of him are thousands of cheering poor people with arms raised, many weeping. What is sad or funny, depending on your point of view, is that their parents and grandparents were poor in 1964.

That nice little 54 year old government charity has an administrative cost of 85-90%, materially benefiting those who have worked for the charity. We shrug our shoulders. But, we get our panties in a wad over Benny Hinn.

Too Funny.
Benny Hinn is a con man making hundreds of millions of dollars a year by targeting the most vulnerable people in our society and feeding off their false hope and gullibility. Hardly a good comparison.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:42 am

Walter wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:55 pm
Gord wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:06 pm
Disagree! Social interactions are inherent to the species. We form groups naturally. Individualism is only one component of our complex nature.
One could say that voluntary cooperation and collaboration with others are components of individualism. The pig farmer may decide to cooperate with the cabinet maker, and may even desire to collaborate. Or not.
I've heard all this, and much more that I strongly suspect would follow if you elaborated, many times before. It's the tired old refrain that government should be organized so that no one is compelled to do any work for the common good, except being drafted into the armed forces in time of war.

Accompanying it is always the secondary theme that anybody receiving public assistance is just a lazy freeloader, lacking initiative, with counterpoint provided by the theme that people who have their own businesses are the salt of the earth and everyone else is parasitic on them. (This opinion constantly emerges from the mouths of people who have no experience of the lives of poor people.) The facts that those "self-reliant" farmers have had decades of price supports to keep them on the farms; that they got electricity on those farms because the New Deal Democrats taxed everyone else to build the system out into unprofitable areas; that the electricity itself comes very often from federally built hydroelectric projects; that all businesses use the Internet, which was built with tax money and is operated by the National Science Foundation; that wealthy corporations regularly buy state legislatures and senators in Washington to get the tax burden shifted down toward the poor; that the laissez-faire approach to medical insurance leaves the poor without coverage except for emergencies; that the real free-loaders are those who choose not to buy medical insurance they can afford, and will leave the rest of us to pick up the bill when illness strikes their children and drives them into bankruptcy; all that, I say, is the common accompaniment of this abominable view of human society.

I know I can't prove it's wrong in any absolute sense. My view is that it is a pig's philosophy, and I'm sticking to that. That's what politics is all about. Between the libertarian view and my "regulated capitalism, welfare-state" philosophy, it is war to the knife. We'll just have to see who prevails.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Gord » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:03 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:42 am
Walter wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:55 pm
Gord wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:06 pm
Disagree! Social interactions are inherent to the species. We form groups naturally. Individualism is only one component of our complex nature.
One could say that voluntary cooperation and collaboration with others are components of individualism. The pig farmer may decide to cooperate with the cabinet maker, and may even desire to collaborate. Or not.
I've heard all this, and much more that I strongly suspect would follow if you elaborated, many times before. It's the tired old refrain that government should be organized so that no one is compelled to do any work for the common good, except being drafted into the armed forces in time of war.
My problem with this line of reasoning is this: anytime someone starts talking about "government", all I hear is "family". I'm required to do this, that, and the other for family, but never for the rest of society. Who is it that puts the greatest pressure on me to do things for the rest of my socially-defined social group? It's my family. Did I choose my family? No. Are there profound negative repercussions when I go against my family? Yes.

At least with government I have some choice in the matter 'cause I get to vote, protest against them when I disagree, and can expect change without having the current leader die or be overthrown in a violent coup or Christmas party.
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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Walter » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:41 pm

SEG wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:00 am
Benny Hinn is a con man making hundreds of millions of dollars a year by targeting the most vulnerable people in our society and feeding off their false hope and gullibility. Hardly a good comparison.
Government charity is a huge con reaping hundreds of billions of dollars for government employees and the businesses required to keep them armed with buildings and office supplies, all by targeting the most vulnerable people in our society and feeding off their false hope and gullibility.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Walter » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:44 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:42 am
We'll just have to see who prevails.
Easy. Socialism.

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Lausten » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:53 pm

Walter wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:41 pm
SEG wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:00 am
Benny Hinn is a con man making hundreds of millions of dollars a year by targeting the most vulnerable people in our society and feeding off their false hope and gullibility. Hardly a good comparison.
Government charity is a huge con reaping hundreds of billions of dollars for government employees and the businesses required to keep them armed with buildings and office supplies, all by targeting the most vulnerable people in our society and feeding off their false hope and gullibility.
And how would you suggest we handle the people who can't take of themselves? The children of the fire fighter who died? The widow of the drunk? The mentally ill who appear to be okay most of the time? The people whose jobs were shipped overseas?

I love it that you blame pencils and copy machines. That's a new one.
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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:24 pm

Lausten wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:53 pm
Walter wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:41 pm
SEG wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:00 am
Benny Hinn is a con man making hundreds of millions of dollars a year by targeting the most vulnerable people in our society and feeding off their false hope and gullibility. Hardly a good comparison.
Government charity is a huge con reaping hundreds of billions of dollars for government employees and the businesses required to keep them armed with buildings and office supplies, all by targeting the most vulnerable people in our society and feeding off their false hope and gullibility.
And how would you suggest we handle the people who can't take of themselves? The children of the fire fighter who died? The widow of the drunk? The mentally ill who appear to be okay most of the time? The people whose jobs were shipped overseas?

I love it that you blame pencils and copy machines. That's a new one.
Back in 1992, when I was myself a proud Libertarian, I went to hear their Presidential candidate (Andre Moreau) address a crowd on the shore of Lake Champlain. His solution to the problem of people who can't take care of themselves was to "privatize" charity. I'm not sure how that works; how does a company make a profit by producing money for the poor and indigent? In fact, it looks to me like the Trump solution: Just get the government out, whatever you do, and leave it to the charitable chumps of the world to fund this humanitarian work. In other words (as in my first post above) nobody has any obligation to the community except to obey the law and serve in the army if drafted. It's an abominable form of government, but it is EXACTLY what the Ayn Rand-drunken libertarians want. I know, because my own brother is one. He wrote me a very bubbly letter when the movie "Atlas Shrugged" came out a few years ago, sure that at last the truth would be exposed and people would finally realize the importance of not caring about the poor and the virtue of selfishness.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:39 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:24 pm
Back in 1992, when I was myself a proud Libertarian, I went to hear their Presidential candidate (Andre Moreau) address a crowd on the shore of Lake Champlain. His solution to the problem of people who can't take care of themselves was to "privatize" charity. I'm not sure how that works; how does a company make a profit by producing money for the poor and indigent?
Did Moreau "mean" what you describe....or did he actually mean the privately funded charity you describe as Trump Care? The first makes no sense at all, the later would work to some degree but is inadequate and shameful. You sure it wasn't your own lofty ideal of libertarianism that interpreted what Moreau "should have" meant?

But I post because I have never had any overturning of any major outlook on life that I have had/currently have. As close as I have come is thinking that people can "get along" with one another. But I was never "wedded" to that as an ideal, I just came to realize that people are more insular than I thought we naturally are. I just expect a bit less.

But to have a major life/political philosophy like being a Libertarian and then have that change over time would be FASCINATING. Do you recall what made you change?

"An unexamined life is not worth living."

I keep thinking I could be kinder.....but it takes too much energy.
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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:42 pm

Since I'm on a rant here, let me at least recognize that government welfare does need to be carefully monitored to eliminate waste and duplication, and yes, there is a reluctance on the part of politicians to do that. I remember when President Kennedy announced with great fanfare his program to eliminate poverty in the US, and his first appointment to whatever commission it was that was supposed to be in charge of the effort was his brother-in-law Sargent Shriver, at a handsome salary, thus, as someone said, "wiping out the last pockets of poverty in the Kennedy family." But insisting that all humanitarian aid must be voluntary is simply grotesque. It's exactly like the NRA exaggeration of the Second Amendment, elevating it to the position of an absolute.

The same is true of the Ayn Rand principle that it is an absolute wrong to take hard-earned money from a citizen and bestow it on someone who didn't earn it. In the abstract, its sounds unassailable; but that's the problem with every moral principle when it becomes the only value, to the exclusion of all others. It ignores, for one thing, the fact that money is earned under a system of laws, and in the US those laws are very unbalanced in favor of people who were born into the upper economic classes and enjoy the concomitant political influence that their "noble birth" brings them.

A good indicator of this attitude (again, I think of my own Ayn Rand-reading brother here) is the belief that the only fair tax is a flat tax for everybody. Really? A tax of, say 10% on a person making $15,000 per year and a tax of 10% on a person making $150,000 per year is a fair distribution? Is there no room in here to consider the PAIN felt by the two taxpayers? My brother, at one time, went even further, arguing for a graduated tax based on the principle that "the more you make, the more you get to keep." His argument was that government is a commodity like any other, and that the poor make the heaviest use of it and therefore should be taxed at a higher rate. That is insanity, of course. In fact, it is the wealthy who make the heaviest use of the government, getting their tame politicians to enact the laws THEY want, no matter how inimical those laws are to the interests and even the lives of the people at the bottom. (Typical example: General Motors got the city of Flint, Michigan to provide clean water to its plants, because they were needed to produce its cars. But the PEOPLE of Flint were provided with dirty, polluted water for years, even though the dire effects of that water on the health of the citizens were well known to the authorities.)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:51 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:39 pm
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:24 pm
Back in 1992, when I was myself a proud Libertarian, I went to hear their Presidential candidate (Andre Moreau) address a crowd on the shore of Lake Champlain. His solution to the problem of people who can't take care of themselves was to "privatize" charity. I'm not sure how that works; how does a company make a profit by producing money for the poor and indigent?
Did Moreau "mean" what you describe....or did he actually mean the privately funded charity you describe as Trump Care? The first makes no sense at all, the later would work to some degree but is inadequate and shameful. You sure it wasn't your own lofty ideal of libertarianism that interpreted what Moreau "should have" meant?
Sorry I wasn't clearer about this. By "privatize" he meant precisely just getting the government out and leaving it to private charities, in other words, the Trump Solution. I was deliberately distorting the meaning of "privatize" here to point up a connection with the current attempts by the Republicans to turn useful infrastructure built at taxpayer expense over to private corporations to reap a profit. But I should have elaborated a bit. The current GOP would, as Garrison Keillor remarked, have people phoning a fire department in Bangalore if it could. Just make the suggestion that fire services and police services should be available only by private subscription. You'll be amazed at how many people think that would be a GREAT idea. (I have done the experiment in coffee houses.)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:00 pm

GOP Privatized Fire protection. Its been tried, and shown to be a proven failure actually resulting in your own "insured" house burning down from others that aren't. I'd think the simplest explanation of this would impact the dullest of free marketers? I always wonder if its the actual "idea" that people profess to think, or if its a self induced psychosis to cover up the greed?
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Re: Benny Hinn Fan

Post by Walter » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:49 pm

Lausten wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:53 pm
I love it that you blame pencils and copy machines. That's a new one.
I am talking about a 90% administrative cost for government charity. It must be defended by the Republicans and Democrats who sit in Congress. Those whining about Trump today would have been whining about Reagan in the 1980s. I am guessing that Trump was ~17 years old in 1964, when that wonderful charity was started. Damn him!

Grandma would defend government charity with “At least they get something”. She could never actually say “the poor”. It was always “they”. When asked if the administrative cost was 99%, her response was the same. This from the Christian woman who came to the United States from Canada in 1927 and became a Democrat because she cared about people. Praise Jesus!

It was 1971, using pencil and paper, when I determined that government charity was simply using the poorest and least educated citizens for the benefit of those running the charity and the private businesses contracted to help out. Those hundreds of billions of dollars were never meant for those actually living in poverty. How does one conclude otherwise?

Some of you might not know that Jimmy Swaggart is still around. Watch his show for just a few minutes. The people in the pews pay for some damn nice clothing and jewelry for those running his charity. And I bet their homes have two car garages.