Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

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Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Felix Castor » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:18 am

In the last section (280) in book III of Sextus' Outlines of Skepticism he states that the Skeptics are "philanthropic and wish to cure by argument, as far as they can, the conceit and rashness of the Dogmatists".

What I wish to know is what Greek word does Sextus use to denote 'conceit'? My suspicion is that he uses 'typhus' τύφος but I cannot seem to get my hands on a Greek version. Any assistance would be much appreciated.

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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:50 pm

I didn't spend that long searching but I can't find a copy in Greek either.

I am curious, what makes you think he would have written τύφος? Isn't that "fever"?
I'm not sure what sense of "conceit" the translator intended to convey but I think he meant something along the lines of preconceived notion. If that's the case then I think κρίση would be a likely word to be translated as "conceit". Reverse-engineering the original phrasing is tricky.
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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Gord » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:58 pm

Are Outlines of Scepticism and Outlines of Pyrrhonism (Πυῤῥώνειοι ὑποτυπώσεις) the same book?

I think this link takes you to an online copy of all of Sextus' works, in Greek (but I can't read Greek so I'm not sure): https://books.google.ca/books?id=j-dEAA ... &q&f=false

It's not searchable, and I can't cut-and-paste, and I'm not sure what I'm even looking at, but check page 187 because I'm guessing that is section 280 in Book III of Outlines of Pyrrhonism. Or else a recipe for butterscotch scones. I'm can't be sure. But I can't see the word Tupoc in there anywhere. (Did I say "Tupoc"? *gleep* I meant "τύφος"!)
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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by TJrandom » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:20 pm

It`s all.... Greek to me... ;)

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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Flash » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:03 am

And Sextus was the guys name? :laff: No, nothing...
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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Felix Castor » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:21 am

Thanks for all for your replies.

"I am curious, what makes you think he would have written τύφος? Isn't that "fever"?" Indeed. One of the senses of τύφος does pertain to the English typhus or typhoid fever. However, the ancients also used the term for mind-related pathologies . See Aristotle or Diogenes the Cynic. Diogenes considered τύφος (vanity/conceit) the most significant passion to be cured. The wikipedia page also notes something of the like (see below).

I am curious to find out whether Sextus was also thinking about the passion 'pathos' of τύφος when he psychologically diagnosed the disturbance of the dogmatists.

"I think this link takes you to an online copy of all of Sextus' works". The link is quite helpful thanks. It's gonna take me a while to figure out if that is Sextus' term for conceit (I'll also keep an eye out for κρίση). According to the index, Sextus does use τύφος often. But he was a physician as well, so the jury is still out.

If you guys find an English on the one page and Greek on the other version, please let me know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism_ ... Philosophy

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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Gord » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:39 pm

Aw, nuts. I found an online source that provides the Greek on one page and the English translation on the opposing page, but it only allows a limited number of pages to be viewed before I have to log in, and I didn't find the right page before I'd used up all my free views.

http://www.loebclassics.com/view/sextus ... 4&result=1

It costs $150 to subscribe.
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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Felix Castor » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:04 am

A thousand praises to Gord. This link is gold.

Unfortunately I also spent all the preview pages before I reached the passage, and $150 converted into my currency constitutes a third of my current paycheck.

Luckily, the paragraph where 'conceit' is found - section 280 of book III - is the very last one of Sextus' Outlines; indexes and addendum aside. Provided the possibility of indexes and addendums, from what I can gather it must be somewhere between page 260 and 273. I'll check if I can burrow a friend's computer, but if some of the helpful commentators on the forum also wish to partake in this treasure hunt it would be much appreciated.

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F

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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:17 pm

I was able to go through a bunch more pages by using Incognito mode in Chrome.
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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Gord » Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:39 pm

Austin Harper wrote:...Incognito mode in Chrome.
There's a who in the what now?!?

*googling, googling, googling*

Dammit! I had no idea I could do this!!

Okay. Book Two seems to start on page 150. Book Three seems to start on page 322. And Book Four...hey, there is no Book Four? So Book Three sections 280 and 281 is the last page, which is page 512! Well that makes this easy then!

:jaded: ...aaaand I've reached the damn page limit again, and can't see page 512 other than to spot the top part of the Greek page, which says:
παθῶν ἰατροὶ διάφορα κατὰ μέγεθος ἔχουσι βοηθήματα, καὶ τοῖς μὲν σφοδρῶς πεπονθόσι τὰ σφοδρὰ τούτων προσάγουσι τοῖς δὲ κούφως τὰ κουφότερα, καὶ ὁ σκεπτικὸς οὕτως διαφόρους 281ἐρωτᾷ [καὶ] κ ...
Yes! That's the spot!

If anyone still has at least one more page they can view, please check page 512 (and of course the English translation on page 513) here: http://www.loebclassics.com/view/sextus ... 73.513.xml

A nice copy/paste in a post here would be much appreciated. 8-)
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"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:22 pm

Sextus Empiricus wrote:ΔΙΑ ΤΙ Ο ΣΚΕΠΤΙΚΟΣ ΕΝΙΟΤΕ ΑΜΥΔΡΟΥΣ ΤΑΙΣ ΠΙΘΑΝΟΤΗΣΙΝ ΕΡΩΤΑΝ ΕΠΙΤΗΔΕΥΕΙ ΛΟΓΟΥΣ
Ὁ σκεπτικὸς διὰ τὸ φιλάνθρωπος εἶναι τὴν τῶν δογματικῶν οἴησίν τε καὶ προπέτειαν κατὰ δύναμιν ἰᾶσθαι λόγῳ βούλεται. καθάπερ οὖν οἱ τῶν σωματικῶν παθῶν ἰατροὶ διάφορα κατὰ μέγεθος ἔχουσι βοηθήματα, καὶ τοῖς μὲν σφοδρῶς πεπονθόσι τὰ σφοδρὰ τούτων προσάγουσι τοῖς δὲ κούφως τὰ κουφότερα, καὶ ὁ σκεπτικὸς οὕτως διαφόρους ἐρωτᾷ [καὶ] κατὰ ἰσχὺν λόγους, καὶ τοῖς μὲν ἐμβριθέσι καὶ εὐτόνως ἀνασκευάζειν δυναμένοις τὸ τῆς οἰήσεως τῶν δογματικῶν πάθος ἐπὶ τῶν σφόδρα τῇ προπετείᾳ κεκακωμένων χρῆται, τοῖς δὲ κουφοτέροις ἐπὶ τῶν ἐπιπόλαιον καὶ εὐίατον ἐχόντων τὸ τῆς οἰήσεως πάθος καὶ ὑπὸ κουφοτέρων πιθανοτήτων ἀνασκευάζεσθαι δυναμένων. διόπερ ὁτὲ μὲν ἐμβριθεῖς ταῖς πιθανότησιν ὁτὲ δὲ καὶ ἀμαυροτέρους φαινομένους οὐκ ὀκνεῖ λόγους συνερωτᾶν ὁ ἀπὸ τῆς σκέψεως ὁρμώμενος, ἐπίτηδες, ὡς ἀρκοῦντας αὐτῷ πολλάκις πρὸς τὸ ἀνύειν τὸ προκείμενον.

WHY THE SCEPTIC SOMETIMES PURPOSELY PROPOUNDS ARGUMENTS WHICH ARE LACKING IN POWER OF PERSUASION
The Sceptic, being a lover of his kind, desires to cure by speech, as best he can, the self-conceit and rashness of the Dogmatists. So, just as the physicians who cure bodily ailments have remedies which differ in strength, and apply the severe ones to those whose ailments are severe and the milder to those mildly affected,—so too the Sceptic propounds arguments which differ in strength, and employs those which are weighty and capable by their stringency of disposing of the Dogmatists’ ailment, self-conceit, in cases where the mischief is due to a severe attack of rashness, while he employs the milder arguments in the case of those whose ailment of conceit is superficial and easy to cure, and whom it is possible to restore to health by milder methods of persuasion. Hence the adherent of Sceptic principles does not scruple to propound at one time arguments that are weighty in their persuasiveness, and at another time such as appear less impressive,—and he does so on purpose, as the latter are frequently sufficient to enable him to effect his object.
The part that Felix was looking for is actually at the very bottom of page 510: "Ὁ σκεπτικὸς διὰ τὸ φιλάνθρωπος εἶναι τὴν τῶν δογματικῶν οἴησίν τε καὶ προπέτειαν κατὰ δύναμιν ἰᾶσθαι λόγῳ βούλεται" which Loeb has translated as "The Sceptic, being a lover of his kind, desires to cure by speech, as best he can, the self-conceit and rashness of the Dogmatists" rather than the translation from the OP of "...philanthropic and wish to cure by argument, as far as they can, the conceit and rashness of the Dogmatists"
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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Gord » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:44 pm

Felix Castor wrote:...section 280 of book III - is the very last one of Sextus' Outlines; indexes and addendum aside. Provided the possibility of indexes and addendums, from what I can gather it must be somewhere between page 260 and 273.
Gord wrote:...So Book Three sections 280 and 281 is the last page, which is page 512!

...παθῶν ἰατροὶ διάφορα κατὰ μέγεθος ἔχουσι βοηθήματα, καὶ τοῖς μὲν σφοδρῶς πεπονθόσι τὰ σφοδρὰ τούτων προσάγουσι τοῖς δὲ κούφως τὰ κουφότερα, καὶ ὁ σκεπτικὸς οὕτως διαφόρους 281ἐρωτᾷ [καὶ] κ ...
Austin Harper wrote:
Sextus Empiricus wrote:The part that Felix was looking for is actually at the very bottom of page 510:

...παθῶν ἰατροὶ διάφορα κατὰ μέγεθος ἔχουσι βοηθήματα, καὶ τοῖς μὲν σφοδρῶς πεπονθόσι τὰ σφοδρὰ τούτων προσάγουσι τοῖς δὲ κούφως τὰ κουφότερα, καὶ ὁ σκεπτικὸς οὕτως διαφόρους ἐρωτᾷ [καὶ] κατὰ...
:befuddled: Are we all seeing different page numbers for the same sections?
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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Gord » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:44 pm

...oh, no, wait, page 510 is just the double-page before page 512. Never mind. Silly me!
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Gord » Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:05 am

Using an online translator to play with this a bit:

Ὁ σκεπτικὸς διὰ τὸ φιλάνθρωπος
The skeptics by charity

εἶναι τὴν τῶν δογματικῶν οἴησίν
be on dogmatic conceit

τε καὶ προπέτειαν
TE (need to work on "τε") and insolence

κατὰ δύναμιν ἰᾶσθαι λόγῳ
at a force iasthai (also need to work on "iasthai") account

So it seems to be the word "οἴησίν" that has been translated as "conceit".

οίηση: puffiness; conceit; priggishness; stuffiness; self-conceit.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Flash » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:22 am

Sexus Emtydicus... :laff:
Pardon me for interrupting a serious discussion. :swoon:
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Re: Sextus' use of 'conceit'. What is the Greek term?

Post by Felix Castor » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:08 am

I can't thank all of you enough for this.

Going incognito mode was as cunning as a fox, Harper.

The verdict, as Gord astutely deduced, is οίηση.

It seems like the word τύφος has largely been confined - in late antiquity when Sextus flourished - to the physical illness we are still acquainted with today. I wonder when the psychological sense of the word has fallen out of favour in the 5-6 centuries between Sextus and Diogenes the Cynic and Pyrrho himself. Ancient Cynicism and Pyrrhonian Skepticism have a lot in common.

I did some further digging and found an interesting link (see link below p. 154-155): (Bear in mind that most of Pyrrho's own writings have been lost, his protege is Timon, and that he and Diogenes the Cynic flourished about the same time in the 4th century BC)

"To this we can add that Timon's writing shows a clear debt to Cynicism, which would make excellent sense if Pyrrho already felt a connection with the Cynics. 'Tuphos', 'vanity' or 'humbug' is a common term of Cynic invective, and Timon appropriates it; besides using it of Zeno of Citium (founder of Stoicism), he turns it around and, as we saw, gives Pyrrho the supreme compliment of 'atuphos', 'without vanity'..."




https://books.google.co.za/books?id=SWb ... pe&f=false