Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

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Centaur
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Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by Centaur » Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Today "Consumer Reports" published its review of the electric Tesla Model S P85D. They say it's the best car they ever tested and the only one ever rated 100. To actually accommodate the extraordinary features of the car, they say they would have to expand their 100-point rating system to give it a 103.

1.7-minute review:

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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:38 am

these people could also use statistics to prove that flying is safer then driving . this car might be ok in the summer in the city .
lets see how it does in a cold winter ?
also there is a loss when fuel is converted to electricity that they ignore .
if it had a gasoline generator it would be interesting to the real minority (people who can see through the lies of normal people)

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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by Centaur » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:58 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:these people could also use statistics to prove that flying is safer then driving . this car might be ok in the summer in the city .
lets see how it does in a cold winter ?
also there is a loss when fuel is converted to electricity that they ignore .
if it had a gasoline generator it would be interesting to the real minority (people who can see through the lies of normal people)
The cost of recharging your Tesla overnight in your home garage is far less than the cost of gasoline and much more convenient than visiting gas stations. Many Tesla car owners utilize solar power for their homes. Tesla also makes battery storage units for homes and businesses to store solar power during the day and release it at night. On long trips you can recharge for free at Tesla Supercharger stations, which are in the process of being converted to solar power.

Video of driving a Tesla Model S during a Norwegian winter:

The dual motor configuration that came after that video was originally implemented to give added traction in snow, not just rapid acceleration.

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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by Gord » Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:58 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:these people could also use statistics to prove that flying is safer then driving .
Flying is safer than driving.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/airline-sa ... -1.1409337
Of all the modes of transport, car travel is still the most treacherous. According to the 2013 Global Status Report on Road Safety, produced by the World Health Organization, about 1.24 million people die on roads worldwide every year.
http://anxieties.com/flying-howsafe.php#.VeAizvZVhBc
If you are going to worry about dying, there are many more probable ways to die than on a commercial jet. Take a look at the chart below, which shows the chance of fatalities on a commercial flight compared to other causes of death in the United States. Notice that you are more likely to die from a bee sting than from a commercial flight. The number one killer in the United States is cardiovascular disease, with about eight hundred and eighty-five thousand deaths per year. Each of us has about a fifty percent (50%) chance of dying of cardiovascular disease. Whenever we fly, we have a one one-hundred-thousandth of one percent (.000014%) chance of dying!

DEATH BY: YOUR ODDS
Cardiovascular disease: 1 in 2
Smoking (by/before age 35): 1 in 600
Car trip, coast-to-coast: 1 in 14,000
Bicycle accident: 1 in 88,000
Tornado: 1 in 450,000
Train, coast-to-coast: 1 in 1,000,000
Lightning: 1 in 1.9 million
Bee sting: 1 in 5.5 million
U.S. commercial jet airline: 1 in 7 million

Sources: Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, University of California at Berkeley
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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by Centaur » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:29 pm

Here is a link to yesterday's immensely positive video review of the new Tesla Model S P90D by a Bloomberg reporter:

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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by JO 753 » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:09 pm

Gord wrote: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/airline-sa ... -1.1409337
Of all the modes of transport, car travel is still the most treacherous. According to the 2013 Global Status Report on Road Safety, produced by the World Health Organization, about 1.24 million people die on roads worldwide every year.
Their way uv calculating the fatality rate for various thingz iz not very good. Bicyclez and motorcyclez are way more danjerous than carz.
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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by JO 753 » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:10 pm

PS. I consent to aksepting a Tesla in exchanje for my endorsement.
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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by Major Malfunction » Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:35 am

Centaur wrote:
psychiatry is a scam wrote:also there is a loss when fuel is converted to electricity that they ignore .
if it had a gasoline generator it would be interesting
The cost of recharging your Tesla overnight in your home garage is far less than the cost of gasoline. Many Tesla car owners utilize solar power for their homes. Tesla also makes battery storage units
Lots of [SNIP]age in above quotes for points I want to address.

Right, psych. If you want to do a proper energy use comparison, you need to do a proper "Cradle to Grave" analysis. I know power station to power point is only about 4% due to line transmission losses. Electrons leak. Who knows how much energy is used digging up the coal before it even gets in the furnace. You need big diggers and lots of diesel, and all the big diggers and diesel to mine the iron ore and diesel to build the factories to build the big diggers, et cetera, ad infinitum.

A simple dollar comparison, while easily digestible by your lay-consumer, never even comes close to the real energy cost. Which is all subsidised by the energy of fossil fuels.

I mean, if we multiplied all the losses, I can't see the efficiency of anything, we as a society use, broaching even thousandths of one percent efficiency.

Putting the fossil fuel directly in a generator right next to your battery would eliminate several orders of magnitude of inefficiency.

Now, Centaur... OK, solar panels, cool. What's the cradle to grave energy cost of producing them? Mining and refining all the silicates and rare earths? And they only last about 20 years.

And the batteries. You have to mine lithium. And the batteries only last a few optimal years, too. Then you've got a bunch of lithium oxide it takes energy to turn back into lithium, provided you don't just chuck it all in a hole and forget about it.
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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by Centaur » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:32 pm

Major Malfunction wrote: And the batteries. You have to mine lithium. And the batteries only last a few optimal years, too. Then you've got a bunch of lithium oxide it takes energy to turn back into lithium, provided you don't just chuck it all in a hole and forget about it.
Used electric car battery packs are converted to energy storage units. Those receive surplus electricity from solar, wind or the grid and release it when required.

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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by JO 753 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:24 pm

Hard to overcome the low conversion efficiency uv combustion enjinez, especially the type in carz. Not only are electric motorz over 90% eficient, but electricly recovering inertia iz very eazy.

And even tho the front end jeneration and delivery haz lossez, so duz gasoline.
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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by xouper » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:40 am

Major Malfunction wrote:If you want to do a proper energy use comparison, you need to do a proper "Cradle to Grave" analysis. . . . A simple dollar comparison, while easily digestible by your lay-consumer, never even comes close to the real energy cost. Which is all subsidised by the energy of fossil fuels.
Please correct me if I am misunderstanding your point, but it seems you are saying that the electric utility companies are selling electricity to consumers at a loss, and therefore (you say) it is not reasonable to compare the consumer price of electricity with the consumer price of gasoline. Is that what you are saying?
Major Malfunction wrote:Putting the fossil fuel directly in a generator right next to your battery would eliminate several orders of magnitude of inefficiency.
I don't understand your point here. Running a home generator costs substantially more per kilowatt hour than buying the electricity directly from the local utility grid. Especially if you also amortize the capital expenditures and maintenance costs of your home generator, which you propose doing in your grave-to-cradle analysis.

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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by Major Malfunction » Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:23 am

You're talking dollars, and I'm talking energy. One is a property of the universe, and one is imaginary. Ask the Dutch, who invented the financial crisis, if the flowers were really worth it.
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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by xouper » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:52 am

Major Malfunction wrote:You're talking dollars, and I'm talking energy. One is a property of the universe, and one is imaginary. Ask the Dutch, who invented the financial crisis, if the flowers were really worth it.
That doesn't help clarify your position at all.

Energy can be measured in dollars. I don't care if you think such a measure is "imaginary", it is still a valid metric for deciding whether to power your house from the electric grid or from a diesel powered generator.

A typical home generator will cost far more per unit of electricity than buying it from the grid. That is a simple fact that contradicts your analysis. If you disagree, then please explain in clear and unambiguous detail (and not in riddles).

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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by Major Malfunction » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:12 am

Forget the money for a moment, if you can. It's imaginary. Not even a factor. Entropy doesn't care about money. You can't buy time.

If we can talk about the energy required to produce a unit of portable energy, then we can start having a discussion about efficiency, without the obfuscation for which you're renowned.
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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by JO 753 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:36 am

Line loss iz less than 10% on averaj.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_ ... ansmission
Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 6.6% in 1997[11] and 6.5% in 2007.[11] By using underground DC transmission, these losses can be cut in half
Car enjinez are about 20% efficient for gas and 40% for deizel. Then therez loss in the tranzmission, wich you dont need with electric and the fact that the enjin iz still running when the car iznt going anywhere (such az a red lite) wich = 0% efficiency. Then therez braking, wich tossez all the enerjy uzed to akselerate into the trash. There wuz a Nissan or Toyota pickup truck model that had a hydraulic braking recovery system sum yearz back, but I supoz it must hav been too expensiv kuz I dont see it advertized anymore. All thingz considered, a typical commuter iz probably getting under 10% efficiency.

New enjin gets 38%

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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by xouper » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:41 am

Major Malfunction wrote:Forget the money for a moment, if you can. It's imaginary. Not even a factor. . . . If we can talk about the energy required to produce a unit of portable energy, then we can start having a discussion about efficiency, without the obfuscation for which you're renowned.
When choosing whether to power my house from the grid or from a home generator, the cost is entirely relevant. It is not an obfuscation. It is not imaginary. It is very real. Contrary to your implied assertion, efficiency can indeed be measured in dollars (even Canadian dollars).

It does not matter how much energy is required to produce a "unit of portable energy". The retail price automatically includes all of the energy required to produce and deliver a "unit of portable energy" to me. I want to know how much the alternatives will cost. Only then can I make an informed decision about which form of energy to use.

You argued that it is more efficient to use a home generator than to buy electricity from the grid. I call BS.

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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by Major Malfunction » Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:15 am

OK, I did a bit more reading. It appears efficiency from coal to power point is about 50%, give or take 10%. That doesn't include the energy required to extract the coal, but if you're powering a vehicle with fossil fuels you're going to have to extract that too, so we'll call that even stevens and disregard.

Which requires me to concede the point that electric vehicles are indeed a more efficient means of transport, even when run on squeezed coal juice straight from the power point.
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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:28 pm

tesla drive unit replacements by DAVID NOLAND . IM ON MY FIFTH DRIVETRAIN at 12,000 .

what bothers me is the claim it has only one gear . one speed maybe - pics show 2 physical gears going to a differential - which is at least 2 more physical gears , and more physical gears under that . :burn:

if they were honest (impossible for a normal) they would say there are ?8? gears in the drive unit ; compare that to the 666 gears in a regular car

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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by JO 753 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:23 pm

By 'gears' they mean speed ratioz.
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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:37 pm

Taking xoupers point of view that cost to the consumer is what is relevant, wouldn't the Best Car Ever be the cheapest car to own and operate over a given time period? Years ago, that would have been any five year old American Made car. Defer all maintenance and oil changes.... just drive it until it won't go. The total cost to the consumer is one/third the total costs of annual inspections of the best car in the World at that time....some model of the Mercedez Benz.

Why does best matter if no one can afford it?

You know. Its like dating tips to impress Megan Fox.
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Re: Consumer Reports - Best Car Ever

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:37 pm

Honda Fit was a good example of good transportation at the least total cost