Ideomotor effect

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scrmbldggs
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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:16 pm

Flobalob wrote:Why everyone here thinks it's a trick is beyond me. The ideomotor effect is recognised by others.
And mistaken for something out of the ordinary by some, or used for tricks by magicians and/or cons.

Your point is?
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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:24 pm

Oh, I think I get it. You're so inattentive or numbed (for lack of a better term) that you don't recognize your body's responses and/or movements for what they are?
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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by Flobalob » Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:42 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Oh, I think I get it. You're so inattentive or numbed (for lack of a better term) that you don't recognize your body's responses and/or movements for what they are?
I don't deny for one second that it's me that's doing it, how can I ? nobody else is holding the key.
If I try to make conscious movements to move they key it looks obvious. But I don't have to.

As far as I know is that it's only use is that it's great for making the jehovas witnesses run away as fast as they can, and they never come back. So it's worth knowing.:D

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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:49 pm

Have you yet looked into the brain's input of all the bodily senses, its processing thereof, and the trickle of that massive amount of information it will allow into awareness?
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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by Flobalob » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:05 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Have you yet looked into the brain's input of all the bodily senses, its processing thereof, and the trickle of that massive amount of information it will allow into awareness?
I'm working on it, I'm presently studying hypnosis.

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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by Flobalob » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:48 pm

http://www.critical-thinking.org.uk/psy ... effect.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'Summary
1.The ideomotor effect causes small, unconscious motor movements because of the person's expectations, preconceptions or suggestibility.
2.The person is not aware that they are causing the movements; therefore they ascribe the movement to an external force or power. The movement feels unnatural.
3.The "external forces" perceived are usually thought of as being paranormal in nature.
4.The effect is real and therefore can be repeated. This can lead to self-reinforcement of the paranormal explanation of the effect, which can create a belief in some special paranormal ability.
5.Once a belief is formed and reinforced, the believer does not usually ever give it up. Dowsers, healers, etc., who continually fail to pass objective, scientific tests do not give up their belief: they tend to make (often fantastical) excuses for their failures rather than accept a rational explanation for their "ability". "

The ideomotor effect is a result of mind control.

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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by Gord » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:23 pm

Flobalob wrote:The ideomotor effect causes small, unconscious motor movements because of the person's expectations, preconceptions or suggestibility.

...

The ideomotor effect is a result of mind control.
Aren't these positions antithetical?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by Flobalob » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:29 pm

Gord wrote:
Flobalob wrote:The ideomotor effect causes small, unconscious motor movements because of the person's expectations, preconceptions or suggestibility.

...

The ideomotor effect is a result of mind control.
Aren't these positions antithetical?
I don't see how. Please explain.

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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by Gord » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:42 pm

One is unconscious. The other is conscious.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by Flobalob » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:46 pm

Gord wrote:One is unconscious. The other is conscious.
The ideomotor effect can work both consciously and unconsciously. It's the same effect whether you are aware of it or not.

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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:59 pm

Flobalob wrote:
Gord wrote:One is unconscious. The other is conscious.
The ideomotor effect can work both consciously and unconsciously. It's the same effect whether you are aware of it or not.
Not sure about that. Once it's intentional, it's no longer the ideomotor effect?

And you also claim the so-called conscious mind will interfere with it once it learned the process? How do you reconcile that with your statement?
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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by Flobalob » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:22 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Flobalob wrote:
Gord wrote:One is unconscious. The other is conscious.
The ideomotor effect can work both consciously and unconsciously. It's the same effect whether you are aware of it or not.
scrmbldggs wrote:Not sure about that. Once it's willed, it's no longer the ideomotor effect?
The ideomotor effect can be observed in the key video. In this instance I am consciously/willingly moving they key by utilizing the ideomotor effect. I don't know how I do it exactly, but when I am doing it I am aware that it's me that's doing it, I can stop the key moving and start it moving again at will.
scrmbldggs wrote:And you also claim the so-called conscious mind will interfere with it once it learned the process? How do you reconcile that with your statement?
The conscious mind will interfere with the subconscious mind when it has expectation. When it has no expectation it can not interfere.

The conscious mind is the least informed and the last to know.

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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:27 pm

Flobalob wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Flobalob wrote:
Gord wrote:One is unconscious. The other is conscious.
The ideomotor effect can work both consciously and unconsciously. It's the same effect whether you are aware of it or not.
Not sure about that. Once it's intentional, it's no longer the ideomotor effect?
The ideomotor effect can be observed in the key video. In this instance I am consciously/willingly moving they key by utilizing the ideomotor effect. I don't know how I do it exactly, but when I am doing it I am aware that it's me that's doing it, I can stop the key moving and start it moving again at will.
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/ideomotor.html wrote:Ideomotor Action

This "influence of suggestion in modifying and directing muscular movement, independently of volition" was given the label ideomotor action by the psychologist/physiologist William B. Carpenter in 1852 [4].
(emphasis mine)

Whatever you're doing appears not to be the ideomotor effect/action/phenomenon. Or, no more so than every living body does:
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/ideomotor.html wrote:"William James [5] elaborated upon Carpenter's ideas, asserting that ideomotor activity was the basic process underlying all volitional behavior: "Wherever a movement unhesitatingly and immediately follows upon the idea of it, we have ideomotor action. We are then aware of nothing between the conception and the execution. All sorts of neuromuscular responses come between, of course, but we know absolutely nothing of them. We think the act, and it is done; and that is all that introspection tells us of the matter." James viewed ideomotor action not as a curiosity but as "simply the normal process stripped of disguise." James concluded that, "We may then lay it down for certain that every [mental] representation of a movement awakens in some degree the actual movement which is its object; and awakens it in a maximum degree whenever it is not kept from so doing by an antagonistic representation present simultaneously to the mind." Modern brain researchers have produced data and theory that help explain how quasi-independent modules in the brain can initiate motor movements without necessarily engaging the "executive module" that is responsible for our sense of self-awareness and volition."

(Can you roll your key with your hand remaining flat on a tabletop?)


Flobablob wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:And you also claim the so-called conscious mind will interfere with it once it learned the process? How do you reconcile that with your statement?
The conscious mind will interfere with the subconscious mind when it has expectation. When it has no expectation it can not interfere.

The conscious mind is the least informed and the last to know.
And if I read this correctly (corrections welcome), repeats improve performance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20822210 wrote: A review of contemporary ideomotor theory.

Evidence indicates that the knowledge about the relation between response and effect is still a critical component even when other factors, such as stimulus-response or response-response relations, are controlled. When consistent tone effects are provided after responses are made, performance in serial-reaction tasks is better than when the effects are random. Methodology in which acquisition and test stages are used with choice-reaction tasks shows that an action is automatically associated with its effect bilaterally and that anticipation of the effect facilitates action.
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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by Flobalob » Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:19 pm

"(Can you roll your key with your hand remaining flat on a tabletop?)"

I can not put my hand flat on a table top without it sloping due to the shape of my hand. The key will roll easily and quickly in this position.


"
And if I read this correctly (corrections welcome), repeats improve performance."

Not at all, repeats are never the real thing.

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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:38 pm

Flobalob wrote:"(Can you roll your key with your hand remaining flat on a tabletop?)"

I can not put my hand flat on a table top without it sloping due to the shape of my hand. The key will roll easily and quickly in this position.
...
Dupuytren's Contracture?
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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by Flobalob » Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:51 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Flobalob wrote:"(Can you roll your key with your hand remaining flat on a tabletop?)"

I can not put my hand flat on a table top without it sloping due to the shape of my hand. The key will roll easily and quickly in this position.
...
Dupuytren's Contracture?
What's that in English ?

The key is a very good thing to demonstrate when looking for a "buy in" when setting up hypnosis.

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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:07 am

Flobalob wrote:"I can not put my hand flat on a table top without it sloping due to the shape of my hand. The key will roll easily and quickly in this position.
Problem Solved: Don't use your hand.

Place a non magnetic coin in one recessed compartment in a clear plastic ice cube try. Place the ice cube tray on a table. Use your power to move the coin from one recessed compartment to another while videoing this occurring.

The ice cube tray must be clear or almost clear. The bottom of the ice cube tray needs to be well lighted ( so I can see if magnets are manipulating the coin from underneath.) I also need a small spirit level on the table in the video. (to stop the whole table and lights being manipulated ( aka The Fred Astaire dancing on the ceiling trick). I also need a paper tissue to be on the same table (to stop air current manipulation)

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Re: Ideomotor effect

Post by Flobalob » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:54 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Flobalob wrote:"I can not put my hand flat on a table top without it sloping due to the shape of my hand. The key will roll easily and quickly in this position.
Problem Solved: Don't use your hand.

Place a non magnetic coin in one recessed compartment in a clear plastic ice cube try. Place the ice cube tray on a table. Use your power to move the coin from one recessed compartment to another while videoing this occurring.

The ice cube tray must be clear or almost clear. The bottom of the ice cube tray needs to be well lighted ( so I can see if magnets are manipulating the coin from underneath.) I also need a small spirit level on the table in the video. (to stop the whole table and lights being manipulated ( aka The Fred Astaire dancing on the ceiling trick). I also need a paper tissue to be on the same table (to stop air current manipulation)
Can't do magic, sorry about that. :lol: