Communism today

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kowalskil
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Communism today

Post by kowalskil » Thu May 01, 2014 8:06 pm

COMMUNIST MANIFESTO 2014,

posted at http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowals ... festo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fell free to shared this link with others. Ludwik
Ludwik Kowalski, author of a free ON-LINE book entitled “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.”

http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

a testimony based on a diary kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA).

The more people know about proletarian dictatorship the less likely will they experience is. Please share the link with those who might be interested, especially with young people, and with potential reviewers. Thank you.

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Re: Communism today

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri May 02, 2014 3:43 am

kowalskil wrote:COMMUNIST MANIFESTO 2014,
posted at http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowals ... festo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fell free to shared this link with others. Ludwik
Ludwig, I don't think you have a grasp of modern Russia. You have written an political essay expressing your astonishment that people still support the old Russian communist system. However the website you are reviewing is from a small group unrelated to the government and is a "little tongue in cheek". There are only 20 people posting on its forum.

If you physically went to Moscow you would see all the old Soviet Style cafes, that exist, in the same way as America has "retro soda fountains" from Happy Days. and Australia has "homestead beer barns". Taxi drivers would tell you about the good ole days and sell you a T-Shirt with Stalin on it. The government booth-stalls, that line the walls of Metro tunnels, sell "Lenin mugs" "Stalin T-Shirts" "Obama tea towels" and "Gandhi backscratchers". They also sell government discount tourist picture books of beautiful Moscow. The Russian Railways Public Corporation is replacing all the old soviet markings with new soviet markings. Why not? Many Americans still wear the Confederate flag as a tribute to their pro-slave history.

Cafe meeting for NGO members.JPG


You now live in America. You never lived in Russia. You were happy to stop being a Pole. Poles hate Russians. How about you concern yourself with your current home's political nut cases and leave those twenty people from that forum, in Russia alone. Try this website to get an idea what exists in America.[/color]

StormFront White National Community ( Neo Nazi)
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Imperial Klans of America / KKK
http://www.kkkk.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The National Vanguard ( National Socialist Forum)
http://nationalvanguard.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or what about from Poland

Free Poland / National Socialist Forum)
http://www.polskawalczaca.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Communism today

Post by kennyc » Fri May 02, 2014 12:00 pm

I wanna hear what Snowden has to say....
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Re: Communism today

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri May 02, 2014 1:55 pm

For communism to work you only have to remove one thing from the current systems of political control.

The humans.
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Re: Communism today

Post by Austin Harper » Fri May 02, 2014 5:31 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:For communism to work you only have to remove one thing from the current systems of political control.

The humans.
I never liked them anyway.
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Re: Communism today

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat May 03, 2014 2:31 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:For communism to work you only have to remove one thing from the current systems of political control.

The humans.
There is an old joke about East Germany. "It took German efficiency to actually get Communism to finally work"

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Re: Communism today

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat May 03, 2014 11:01 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:For communism to work you only have to remove one thing from the current systems of political control.

The humans.
There is an old joke about East Germany. "It took German efficiency to actually get Communism to finally work"
It worked? Where?
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Re: Communism today

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun May 04, 2014 3:55 am

Communism works extremely well for whoever is in charge. Just ask Kim Jong Un.

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Re: Communism today

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun May 04, 2014 4:18 am

kennyc wrote:I wanna hear what Snowden has to say....
Anything is better than Ludwig's "drive by" anti communist posts.

In London, there used to be a city block of "Lost Causes" which were bookshops and unions run by the "Free Czechoslovakia", "Polish National Freedom", "The Macedonian Independence Research Centre" and so on. In the 50s, 60s and 70s the British Foreign Office would print or publish some anti-communist propaganda tidbit by one of the "Lost Causes".

These countries aren't communist anymore and neither is Russia.

Ludwig is not a historian researching and putting forward an opinion based on facts but a legacy from one of the "Lost Causes". Ludwig is also careful not to mention that he was a full member of the Polish Communist Party before jumping ship to America in 1964 for economic gain. He got his free education in Poland.

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Re: Communism today

Post by Flash » Sun May 04, 2014 4:58 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Ludwig is not a historian researching and putting forward an opinion based on facts but a legacy from one of the "Lost Causes". Ludwig is also careful not to mention that he was a full member of the Polish Communist Party before jumping ship to America in 1964 for economic gain. He got his free education in Poland.

Yes, free university including the graduate school and free books and the "Akademik", a kind of a residence for students. Not only that, he forgets that he had free medicare, denticare, drugs and that the Communist party send him to all kinds of camps (recreational, not gulags OK?) and conventions with all the expenses paid including the train tickets.
But as usual, Ludwig pops in, leaves a bit of a propaganda and disappears back into the cyberspace. :mrgreen:
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Re: Communism today

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun May 04, 2014 12:47 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Communism works extremely well for whoever is in charge. Just ask Kim Jong Un.
So do most other political systems.
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Re: Communism today

Post by Monster » Mon May 05, 2014 12:32 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: Ludwig is also careful not to mention that he was a full member of the Polish Communist Party before jumping ship to America in 1964 for economic gain. He got his free education in Poland.
No, he says those things quite clearly in his free book.
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Re: Communism today

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon May 05, 2014 1:22 am

Monster wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: Ludwig is also careful not to mention that he was a full member of the Polish Communist Party before jumping ship to America in 1964 for economic gain. He got his free education in Poland.
No, he says those things quite clearly in his free book.
Yes, he does mention joining a communist youth organisation, and the Polish communist party after starting university, in his online book, but not the essay he has linked in the opening post.

If you read his online book and start noting the dates you will see some "gems". His mother joined the Union of Polish Patriots, which was the wartime Stalinist organisation run from Moscow. This organisation was to "overwhelm" the local Polish communists who believed in Trotsky's international communism and Churchill's "Polish Government in Exile" . Indeed, Trotsky gets slammed.


"She referred to what my mother wrote about my father (it is probably in their archives) and said that the danger of Trotskyism was real and that many mistakes were made"

We are reading one families love for Polish freedom expressed by joining a Russian puppet organisation, to keep elected Poles out of government, and his departure from Poland to the USA for personal economic benefit? Am I meant to feel sorry for this bloke? What about the actual Poles who wanted self government and actually lived in Poland?

I don't have much love for middle class economic refugees, who abandon their own country by choice, and then complain that their old country is badly run.

What if George Washington said "This is too hard" and moved to Paris to complain about British tax impositions and lack of local representation? Someone has to stay and make changes. They are the real people.

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Re: Communism today

Post by fromthehills » Mon May 05, 2014 1:35 am

Monster wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: Ludwig is also careful not to mention that he was a full member of the Polish Communist Party before jumping ship to America in 1964 for economic gain. He got his free education in Poland.
No, he says those things quite clearly in his free book.

Yes, he does make it quite clear.

And given the current state of affairs, his understanding isn't wrong, either. These aren't guys selling novelty teeshirts, these are guys beating up, nearly to death, anyone that doesn't seem Russian enough. I don't know if this is communist, or just plain chauvinist [the correct definition] Whatever it is, it's ethically not defendable. I'm sure it's not all Russians. I'm also sure it's not just 20 people on an internet forum.

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Re: Communism today

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon May 05, 2014 1:59 am

fromthehills wrote: And given the current state of affairs, his understanding isn't wrong, either. These aren't guys selling novelty teeshirts, these are guys beating up, nearly to death, anyone that doesn't seem Russian enough.
Post war Polish politics has quite a few players. The Polish communist party that existed before the war is not the Stalinist Polish Communist Party that they joined after the war. His mother joined the Moscow run Stalinist party. After Stalin died in 1953, there was a a movement to an independent Polish communist party that took power in 1956 in the "Polish October".

Within 10 years, Ludwig whose family supported and mother belonged to the now hated Stalinist wing of the party, had left Poland to make money in America. The Polish Communists didn't like the Stalinists either and threw them out.

Ludewig is writing anti Stalinist propaganda but not discussing the actual form of Communism he chose to leave for personal gain. There are many anti Stalinist essays written by Polish communists, in the 50s & 60s, who were quite happy to stay and work in the reformed Polish communist party for the benefit of Poland. They didn't run away.

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Re: Communism today

Post by AKALuke » Mon May 05, 2014 5:33 am

Without knowing about what seems a history with this poster, this thread seems a bit, err, strange. To say the least.

I mean a guy posts a link to his essay and what follows is a series of attacks and fallacies.

What's the deal?

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Re: Communism today

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon May 05, 2014 6:20 am

AKALuke wrote: What's the deal?
He starts new anti communist threads on this forum, but almost never responds to posts in those threads. Considering this post is in the "Monster Talk" forum, I don't think he really cares where he posts his essays anyway.

He promotes his own Wikipedia page about himself. On one hand his father disappeared during the great purges, but he never says why, on the other hand, after that, his mother then joins the Moscow run Polish Patriots party anyway. Did neither them ask? ( Not everyone was shot for no reason)

In 1956, the Polish Communist party reformed and old Stalinist members were booted out. In 1964 he runs away to America. So much, for the love of Poland. He has some connection to the US Hoover Institution ( a right wing Republican party entity with other members like Condelleza Rice. )

He reminds me of the former deputy head of the "internal admin" section of the Russian KGB's foreign service, Oleg Kalugin. Kalugin was very happy to get paid to destroy America when working in Russia but as soon as he became unpopular in Russia, Kalugin applies for US residency, changes teams, backstabs the KGB and starts singing to his former enemy.

( Kalugin was assigned to get Kim Philby, the British traitor, off vodka. This suggested to me that Kalugin wasn't as high up in the KGB as he claimed. All Kalugin's quotes from KGB chairman, Andropov, were made after Andropov died, which also makes me wonder..)

These people are just economic refugees who back stab the country that they signed loyalty oaths to, previously. They would change sides again for personal benefit to anyone who made them a better offer.

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Re: Communism today

Post by kennyc » Mon May 05, 2014 10:18 am

AKALuke wrote:Without knowing about what seems a history with this poster, this thread seems a bit, err, strange. To say the least.

I mean a guy posts a link to his essay and what follows is a series of attacks and fallacies.

What's the deal?
I think it is typically known as trolling.
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Re: Communism today

Post by octopus1 » Mon May 05, 2014 1:04 pm

My knowledge of global politics is limited, even though I'm a passionate lefty.

Here's the issue I have with their "goals":

* to counter the lies and slander directed against the Soviet people.
* to assess past events objectively.


Being truly and genuinely objective, means having to face up to the possibility that the USSR (like any other country) got up to some pretty nasty stuff from time to time. Dismissing all critical comments as 'lies and slander' is anything but objective.

And that's all the objectivity you'll get from me! It's all impassioned raging about lax human rights from hereon out ;)
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Re: Communism today

Post by Austin Harper » Mon May 05, 2014 3:58 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Considering this post is in the "Monster Talk" forum, I don't think he really cares where he posts his essays anyway.
This happens all the time because people just see that the section is called "General Discussion" and they don't notice that it's under the "MonsterTalk" heading.
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Re: Communism today

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon May 05, 2014 4:08 pm

General Discussion? Served with him in 'Nam.
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Re: Communism today

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon May 05, 2014 4:13 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:General Discussion? Served with him in 'Nam.
Don't know what he was like back then, but now he must be a mole because around here he's always descending into chaos.
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Re: Communism today

Post by kennyc » Mon May 05, 2014 4:17 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:General Discussion? Served with him in 'Nam.
Don't know what he was like back then, but now he must be a mole because around here he's always descending into chaos.

Corporal Chaos? I've met him, good man, but a bit scattered.
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Re: Communism today

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon May 05, 2014 4:29 pm

kennyc wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:General Discussion? Served with him in 'Nam.
Don't know what he was like back then, but now he must be a mole because around here he's always descending into chaos.

Corporal Chaos? I've met him, good man, but a bit scattered.
I think he had a thing going with Corporal Punishment. :?
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Re: Communism today

Post by Austin Harper » Mon May 05, 2014 4:33 pm

I'm a big fan of Captain Obvious.
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Re: Communism today

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon May 05, 2014 4:33 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
kennyc wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:General Discussion? Served with him in 'Nam.
Don't know what he was like back then, but now he must be a mole because around here he's always descending into chaos.

Corporal Chaos? I've met him, good man, but a bit scattered.
I think he had a thing going with Corporal Punishment. :?
Was the result Major Malfunction? :mrgreen:
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Re: Communism today

Post by nmblum88 » Mon May 05, 2014 4:43 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:Considering this post is in the "Monster Talk" forum, I don't think he really cares where he posts his essays anyway.
This happens all the time because people just see that the section is called "General Discussion" and they don't notice that it's under the "MonsterTalk" heading.

It doesn't much matter….it's a cyberforum, not the Fifth International.

As long as we have no clear understanding, i.e. some actual facts, about the real nature of man in regard to his possible communal rather than selfish nature, Communism by any of its manifestations or interpretations (philosophical or idiosyncratic) remains impossible to assess much less implement.
As in "ain't never gonna happen…"
"Follow the money" then, follow it now… socialism in one country is impossible, there is no way of overcoming the economic disparities in the one thing that counts in the way we live now: profit.
There are no surviving ancient communes: there aren't even any recent communes still in existence.
Including the latest incarnation of the idea, the Israeli Kibbutz, which actually produced a few inklings of the possibility of human sharing… food, shelter, child care, education… viable, equal…
Gone, all gone, now turned into to tourist inns and rest stops, with the remaining devotees to the shreds of the concept employed in light industry… perhaps even having produced the keyboard I'm using now.
After all… how many grapefruits and eggs could one small county use for itself or compete with on the world market?
Electronics are cleaner and easier to produce and the customers are out there.
So the Kibbutz turned, first, into something else, and now, less than 70 years later into a memory, a romantic idea that has no connection with present Israeli reality.

The Russian version of Marxism was doomed to failure: nothing was further from Marx' OR Engel's minds than that primitive, peasant Russia would be the scene of the first Communist Revolution.
Marxism was obviously in design marked for the industrialized nations of the 19th Century, England most certainly, Germany….. and even the United States.
Countries with a traditional working class, and enough agricultural population and success to sustain the industrial workers..
Some degree literacy and of intellectual tradition counted as well…
Compare those components sfor incipient revolution with Mother Russia, steeped and ruled by a thoughtless and mostly absent (not even Russian speaking) oligarchy, many of them living abroad.
Peasants living virtually bestial lives, for the most part indentured serfs, living on the land of others indifferent to their survival but aware of even the most trivial of disobedience…
And in thrall to a Christian religion so cruel and so barbaric as to insure its primacy by myths of blood lust, in addition to eternal damnation.
So even a so called "bolshevik" revolution was doomed from the outset…
But the root causes for Revolution were indeed present when Lenin made his fateful journey in that boxcar, and arrived at the Finland Station in St. Petersburg…. and the light that eventually failed was turned on in its full glory..
And they still persist.
Unfortuanately so does our basic ignorance about what makes humans tick…. are we our brothers' keepers?
Do we identify with and wish to support and sustain those with less than we have by sharing our talents and our worldly and solitary ownership of early goods?
Or are we basically peasants who live to acquire our own plots of land, our acreage, our cities, our nations?
Can socialization work if the determinedly aggressive and acquisitive rise to the top, no matter where the top is located?
Can we even try to live communally if "to each according to his needs and from each
according to his ability" is at even the most simple level anathema to almost all of us, including, perhaps above all, those who are the product of Abrahamic religions?

In fact that the Russian Revolution (the "Ten Days the Shook the World") occurred at all with the the terrified European oligarchs and the mighty Vatican arrayed against the infighting and insecure Revolutionists was the miracle of its time.
That it happened and with such tragic consequences of not only failed but terrifyingly monstrous human leadership is less a damnation of Socialism as a plat for improved (morally and practically) human organization than it is a call for continuing investigation into who we, as a species are, and what our potential might be for finding better ways to govern and sustain ourselves in our habitat.

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Re: Communism today

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon May 05, 2014 11:45 pm

nmblum wrote:The Russian version of Marxism was doomed to failure: nothing was further from Marx' OR Engel's minds than that primitive, peasant Russia would be the scene of the first Communist Revolution.
Russian started heavily industrialisation after the Crimean war under the reforms of Alexander the second. Before the Bolsheviks took control, Russian was the world's fourth biggest producer of steel and second biggest producer of petroleum. It is a western myth that Russia was not industrialised.

There were 50,000 Russian engineers living in Harbin and Peking, in China alone, who were stranded, when the Bolsheviks took place, as Russia was building domestic and foreign railways using foreign capital investment. It is the foreign loans that Lenin declared as void as Russia was already industrialised.

You are suggesting the Russia was a "peasant" nation of farm workers in 1917, that despite economic sanctions from the west and a civil war, magically industrialised on its own to produce 120,000 tanks compared to "Industrial" Germany's 22,000 in a 25 year period. That view doesn't make sense does it? Russia was already heavily industrialised before the revolution. .

Lenin, giving a speech to factory workers.
Factory workers.jpg
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Re: Communism today

Post by fromthehills » Tue May 06, 2014 12:54 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
nmblum wrote:The Russian version of Marxism was doomed to failure: nothing was further from Marx' OR Engel's minds than that primitive, peasant Russia would be the scene of the first Communist Revolution.
Russian started heavily industrialisation after the Crimean war under the reforms of Alexander the second. Before the Bolsheviks took control, Russian was the world's fourth biggest producer of steel and second biggest producer of petroleum. It is a western myth that Russia was not industrialised.

There were 50,000 Russian engineers living in Harbin and Peking, in China alone, who were stranded, when the Bolsheviks took place, as Russia was building domestic and foreign railways using foreign capital investment. It is the foreign loans that Lenin declared as void as Russia was already industrialised.

You are suggesting the Russia was a "peasant" nation of farm workers in 1917, that despite economic sanctions from the west and a civil war, magically industrialised on its own to produce 120,000 tanks compared to "Industrial" Germany's 22,000 in a 25 year period. That view doesn't make sense does it? Russia was already heavily industrialised before the revolution. .

Lenin, giving a speech to factory workers.
Factory workers.jpg

Honestly, this doesn't argue against a peasant class, the proletariat. Sure they were industrialized, but at who's cost? With no chance of owning land, and being forced to work, at gun point for the government…. They wiped out the educated, and the land owners. Slave labor, or nearly so, can build a {!#%@} load of tanks pretty damn quick. And if you die while working, there's a starving soul to fill the line. Roads, railways, military complexes; they all follow the same formula. Combine this with a cult of personality, and you have what communism became.

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Re: Communism today

Post by nmblum88 » Tue May 06, 2014 2:55 am

LOL…
I think the Dingo stole Matthew's MAYBE.


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" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Communism today

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue May 06, 2014 3:46 am

fromthehills wrote:Honestly, this doesn't argue against a peasant class, the proletariat.
You are right, but my previous point was specifically related to how Karl Marx predicted communism would evolve in a society. Marx based his predictive model on English and Germanic industrialisation. People forget that he wrote Das Kapital before actually Germany existed, yet assume Marxism was aimed only at Germany (which didn't exist).

Lenin ignored a couple steps of Marx's predicted economic steps, mainly that communism would be an international movement in an industrialised world in which borders didn't really matter. Marx assumed all workers would evolve into one class prior to the revolution, whereas Leninism artificially speeded things up included the former agricultural serf before this step was reached. ( Thus, the hammer & sickle is Leninist from 1917)

fromthehills wrote:Sure they were industrialized, but at who's cost? With no chance of owning land, and being forced to work, at gun point for the government
This is another funny myth. Most peasants did own land and were able to sell their surplus product for profit at markets. ( The N.E.P. of 1922). "War Communism" is not Leninism but a violent seizure of private assets as America, Britain, France, Poland declared war on Russia in 1917 to recover loans and equity interest in Russian industrial concerns they financed.

If Lenin had been guaranteed loan repayments and some form of compensation for equity to foreign governments, it may have been a very different story and the NEP would have evolved into a normal socialist economy. However Stalin came around after Lenin's death and screwed it for everyone.

What's funny is that today, poorer Russians still own their holiday house in the country called a dacha or да́ча. They still owned or worked the same land during communism, when they were used as private market gardens. Today 50% of all Russian city dwellers still own a dacha, which is remarkable in comparison, to say, New Yorkers.

fromthehills wrote: They wiped out the educated, and the land owners.
Serfdom ( slavery) ended in 1961. The 1917 revolution had to release land to 58 year old peasants who were born as slaves. What do you think happened to the Confederate slave owning land owners at the end of the American civil war? The Union Army's "Freedmans Bureau" held a vote to distribute this same land to peasants (but lost the vote). Well....the Russian government voted the other way..... The two civil wars, Russian and American, are quite similar in some aspects.

As for education, you got that back to front. The Czar hindered education as it fermented revolution since 1848. It was the Czars intellectuals who got shot. The communist introduced compulsory education for all citizens. You seem to forget that Lenin was a lawyer.....and highly educated. He watched his brother, Alexander, swinging from a tree by his neck for supporting education.
fromthehills wrote: Slave labor, or nearly so, can build a {!#%@} load of tanks pretty damn quick.
It can also pick a lot of cotton. That's why both countries had revolutions. My point about tank manufacture was to show that Russia was highly industrialised prior to the revolution. I was not commenting on the worker's status.
fromthehills wrote:Combine this with a cult of personality, and you have what communism became.
The Czar was "father of all people". I have no idea why people think the communists introduced the cult of personality. They didn't. Kings did and have done so since Pharaoh.

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Re: Communism today

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue May 06, 2014 3:50 am

nmblum wrote:LOL…I think the Dingo stole Matthew's MAYBE.
Thank you for your worthless input and lack of knowledge
nmblum wrote:Norma Manna Blum
The cult of personality requires that you actually do something popular. Perhaps if you went away again, that would qualify
:D .

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Re: Communism today

Post by Flash » Tue May 06, 2014 6:39 am

fromthehills wrote:
Yes, he (Ludvig) does make it quite clear.

And given the current state of affairs, his understanding isn't wrong, either
.
You wouldn't know because your understanding of the East European history is almost nil and very much dependent on your official propaganda.
These aren't guys selling novelty teeshirts, these are guys beating up, nearly to death, anyone that doesn't seem Russian enough. I don't know if this is communist, or just plain chauvinist [the correct definition] Whatever it is, it's ethically not defendable. I'm sure it's not all Russians. I'm also sure it's not just 20 people on an internet forum
.
Oh how fair and square you are in evaluating the situation in Eastern Europe. "I am sure it's not all Russians" . You almost had to add this to show how even handed you are almost by default, because you are such even handed American.

The ethnic conflicts are not pretty anywhere and we shouldn't support either side yet the NATO and the EU have been doing their damndest to start an ethnic conflict there for a long time. The money, the agents the {!#%@} vice-president of the good old USA, the chief of CIA Brennan, the Polish and the German foreign ministers, and the billions of dollars and many, many agents all went to the Ukraine to cause this {!#%@} using the useful idiots in the shape of extreme nationalists and the neoNazis, the intellectual descendants of the ones who cooperated with the Hitlerites during the WWII.

The most desirable scenario for the US administration and the EU is the bloody conflict between the Ukrainians and the Russians. No wonder Russia is panicking. They had NATO encircling Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union, just look at the maps of the Eastern Europe before 1990 and now. They tried to attack Russia from the south by giving the Georgian and Armenian strongman free tanks and artillery pieces and a bit of training. The American bases now extend throughout the central Asia. And Obama just made a trip to the far East trying to convince China to {!#%@} Russia.

The West has succeeded in making Arabs kill Arabs on a big scale now they think it's the time for the East Europeans. There is no limit to what the Western money and power can buy not even a homicidal war in the Ukraine and the ultimate goal of the destruction of Russia.

However, our political and military masters are playing a dangerous game . I am afraid that in the light of their many successes their well displayed self confidence and arrogance will lead them to the brink, just like it did the monarchs of the pre-WWI .The {!#%@} arogant aristocratic eggheads assumed that they could win an unwinnable war that quite unintentionally turned into the real apocalypse. And now, the ruler's propaganda is trying to convince us that it's been too good for so long ,it's time to have a global thermonuclear war to end all thermonuclear wars, for ever. Look, we are going to win this one for sure, eh.
When I feel like exercising, I just lie down until the feeling goes away. Paul Terry

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Re: Communism today

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue May 06, 2014 7:00 am

Flash wrote:They tried to attack Russia from the south by giving the Georgian ......
That was a very strange period of "George Bush Logic"
Georgia_US_BBC.jpg
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Re: Communism today

Post by fromthehills » Tue May 06, 2014 12:09 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
fromthehills wrote:Honestly, this doesn't argue against a peasant class, the proletariat.
You are right, but my previous point was specifically related to how Karl Marx predicted communism would evolve in a society. Marx based his predictive model on English and Germanic industrialisation. People forget that he wrote Das Kapital before actually Germany existed, yet assume Marxism was aimed only at Germany (which didn't exist).

Lenin ignored a couple steps of Marx's predicted economic steps, mainly that communism would be an international movement in an industrialised world in which borders didn't really matter. Marx assumed all workers would evolve into one class prior to the revolution, whereas Leninism artificially speeded things up included the former agricultural serf before this step was reached. ( Thus, the hammer & sickle is Leninist from 1917)

fromthehills wrote:Sure they were industrialized, but at who's cost? With no chance of owning land, and being forced to work, at gun point for the government
This is another funny myth. Most peasants did own land and were able to sell their surplus product for profit at markets. ( The N.E.P. of 1922). "War Communism" is not Leninism but a violent seizure of private assets as America, Britain, France, Poland declared war on Russia in 1917 to recover loans and equity interest in Russian industrial concerns they financed.

If Lenin had been guaranteed loan repayments and some form of compensation for equity to foreign governments, it may have been a very different story and the NEP would have evolved into a normal socialist economy. However Stalin came around after Lenin's death and screwed it for everyone.

What's funny is that today, poorer Russians still own their holiday house in the country called a dacha or да́ча. They still owned or worked the same land during communism, when they were used as private market gardens. Today 50% of all Russian city dwellers still own a dacha, which is remarkable in comparison, to say, New Yorkers.

fromthehills wrote: They wiped out the educated, and the land owners.
Serfdom ( slavery) ended in 1961. The 1917 revolution had to release land to 58 year old peasants who were born as slaves. What do you think happened to the Confederate slave owning land owners at the end of the American civil war? The Union Army's "Freedmans Bureau" held a vote to distribute this same land to peasants (but lost the vote). Well....the Russian government voted the other way..... The two civil wars, Russian and American, are quite similar in some aspects.

As for education, you got that back to front. The Czar hindered education as it fermented revolution since 1848. It was the Czars intellectuals who got shot. The communist introduced compulsory education for all citizens. You seem to forget that Lenin was a lawyer.....and highly educated. He watched his brother, Alexander, swinging from a tree by his neck for supporting education.
fromthehills wrote: Slave labor, or nearly so, can build a {!#%@} load of tanks pretty damn quick.
It can also pick a lot of cotton. That's why both countries had revolutions. My point about tank manufacture was to show that Russia was highly industrialised prior to the revolution. I was not commenting on the worker's status.
fromthehills wrote:Combine this with a cult of personality, and you have what communism became.
The Czar was "father of all people". I have no idea why people think the communists introduced the cult of personality. They didn't. Kings did and have done so since Pharaoh.

I appreciate the response. I have some differences, and questions, but no time. I'll try to get back to this, this evening.

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Re: Communism today

Post by nmblum88 » Tue May 06, 2014 2:49 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
fromthehills wrote:Honestly, this doesn't argue against a peasant class, the proletariat.
You are right, but my previous point was specifically related to how Karl Marx predicted communism would evolve in a society. Marx based his predictive model on English and Germanic industrialisation. People forget that he wrote Das Kapital before actually Germany existed, yet assume Marxism was aimed only at Germany (which didn't exist).

Lenin ignored a couple steps of Marx's predicted economic steps, mainly that communism would be an international movement in an industrialised world in which borders didn't really matter. Marx assumed all workers would evolve into one class prior to the revolution, whereas Leninism artificially speeded things up included the former agricultural serf before this step was reached. ( Thus, the hammer & sickle is Leninist from 1917)

fromthehills wrote:Sure they were industrialized, but at who's cost? With no chance of owning land, and being forced to work, at gun point for the government
This is another funny myth. Most peasants did own land and were able to sell their surplus product for profit at markets. ( The N.E.P. of 1922). "War Communism" is not Leninism but a violent seizure of private assets as America, Britain, France, Poland declared war on Russia in 1917 to recover loans and equity interest in Russian industrial concerns they financed.

If Lenin had been guaranteed loan repayments and some form of compensation for equity to foreign governments, it may have been a very different story and the NEP would have evolved into a normal socialist economy. However Stalin came around after Lenin's death and screwed it for everyone.

What's funny is that today, poorer Russians still own their holiday house in the country called a dacha or да́ча. They still owned or worked the same land during communism, when they were used as private market gardens. Today 50% of all Russian city dwellers still own a dacha, which is remarkable in comparison, to say, New Yorkers.

fromthehills wrote: They wiped out the educated, and the land owners.
Serfdom ( slavery) ended in 1961. The 1917 revolution had to release land to 58 year old peasants who were born as slaves. What do you think happened to the Confederate slave owning land owners at the end of the American civil war? The Union Army's "Freedmans Bureau" held a vote to distribute this same land to peasants (but lost the vote). Well....the Russian government voted the other way..... The two civil wars, Russian and American, are quite similar in some aspects.

As for education, you got that back to front. The Czar hindered education as it fermented revolution since 1848. It was the Czars intellectuals who got shot. The communist introduced compulsory education for all citizens. You seem to forget that Lenin was a lawyer.....and highly educated. He watched his brother, Alexander, swinging from a tree by his neck for supporting education.
fromthehills wrote: Slave labor, or nearly so, can build a {!#%@} load of tanks pretty damn quick.
It can also pick a lot of cotton. That's why both countries had revolutions. My point about tank manufacture was to show that Russia was highly industrialised prior to the revolution. I was not commenting on the worker's status.
fromthehills wrote:Combine this with a cult of personality, and you have what communism became.
The Czar was "father of all people". I have no idea why people think the communists introduced the cult of personality. They didn't. Kings did and have done so since Pharaoh.
LOL..
Mishmash, mishmash…
But I do love the little " да́ча." touch…. it does a lot to make up for the irrelevancies that derail any serious discussion about the repercussions of the failed Russian revolution.
In the world of "can you top this" there are so few posters who have the Cyrillic alphabet on their keyboards.
Matthew, you may not know a great deal about Russian history, or the monumentally tragic and continuing saga of the failure of that world shaking Revolution..
Or the ensuing devastating effect both politically and personally on so many of the once hopeful still scarred by it, in Russia and around the world
But I will give you this: you certainly show remarkable aplomb (I guess because "embarrassment" is not in your vocabulary) while just making up filler.

Norma Manna Blum
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Communism today

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue May 06, 2014 11:47 pm

fromthehills wrote:I appreciate the response. I have some differences, and questions, but no time. I'll try to get back to this, this evening.
That's fine. We are friends having a chat. I am being forced to rethink my position as a set out what I think is the appropriate information to allow further discussion. This is "friendly forum skepticism and discussion".

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Re: Communism today

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue May 06, 2014 11:58 pm

nmblum wrote: LOL..Mishmash, mishmash…
I do love old people trying to be groovy....
nmblum wrote:But I do love the little " да́ча." touch…. it does a lot to make up for the irrelevancies that derail any serious discussion about the repercussions of the failed Russian revolution.
Dachas are private market gardens. This evidenced that FromtheHill's thought that there was no private ownership, was not accurate. This simply went over your head. You should stick to cupcake recipes and posting 60's music clips.
:D
nmblum wrote: there are so few posters who have the Cyrillic alphabet on their keyboards.
I'm learning Russian. I have a combo Latin and Cyrillic keyboard like 50,000,000 other people. I bought it at the university book shop when I bought my first module Russian text books. It was a course requirement.

Any other really stupid questions Norma? (or are you going to keep interrupting anyway?)

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Re: Communism today

Post by fromthehills » Wed May 07, 2014 12:35 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
fromthehills wrote:I appreciate the response. I have some differences, and questions, but no time. I'll try to get back to this, this evening.
That's fine. We are friends having a chat. I am being forced to rethink my position as a set out what I think is the appropriate information to allow further discussion. This is "friendly forum skepticism and discussion".
For the reason Marx may have avoided it, daily hard work inhibits a gainful pursuit of knowledge and debate. So I still don't have time. You may remember that I was studying the Russian Revolution, and early communism. I watched several university lectures, and read Wikipedia and many of it's sources. I'm not being patriotic, here, so no need for the tu quoque cotton picking thing. I'm not judging early Russia. The history is fascinating.

I also didn't say Communism invented the Cult of Personality, but it is an undeniable fact that Stalin used this in excess as a means of control. He taught it to an otherwise unremarkable man in North Korea, that still rules from the grave, today.

Communism doesn't work for the same reason Libertarianism doesn't work. It relies on people doing the right thing, and we never do.

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Re: Communism today

Post by nmblum88 » Wed May 07, 2014 3:50 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
nmblum wrote: LOL..Mishmash, mishmash…
I do love old people trying to be groovy....
nmblum wrote:But I do love the little " да́ча." touch…. it does a lot to make up for the irrelevancies that derail any serious discussion about the repercussions of the failed Russian revolution.
Dachas are private market gardens. This evidenced that FromtheHill's thought that there was no private ownership, was not accurate. This simply went over your head. You should stick to cupcake recipes and posting 60's music clips.
:D
nmblum wrote: there are so few posters who have the Cyrillic alphabet on their keyboards.
I'm learning Russian. I have a combo Latin and Cyrillic keyboard like 50,000,000 other people. I bought it at the university book shop when I bought my first module Russian text books. It was a course requirement.

Any other really stupid questions Norma? (or are you going to keep interrupting anyway?)



TSK TSK, TSK…. that was quite a tirade,Matthew …(Djugashvilian in fact.., you DO have your role models)…. , much, I suppose like the tirades that had marked your behavior and perhaps your troubled life from infancy.
But you should be careful, and try to contain your infantile rages…. because an educated guess is that outbursts like the one above are what preceded your past requirements for prescribed (and possibly enforced) rest.

However, if you can't… well, you just keep it up: stamp your foot, swallow your tongue, turn blue, if that's what you are determined to do.

Because there is no way that I can be convinced that you know anything of significant interest or the actual history of troubled, backward, abused and abusive Tsarist Russia and the astounding, world shattering, cataclysmic Revolution, that startling wonder of history before the light that eventually and tragically (and so cruelly for millions of optimists and dreamers) failed.

But who knows? You could certainly hire someone of even lesser stature and principle that yourself, to bury an ice -axe in my skull.
It's even done before , and by that very tyrant that your tirades always bring to mind, constantly threatened for whatever reason, large or small.

Norma Manna Blum

P.S. And by the way, Matthew : there is no such thing as a stupid question.
There are less than intelligent, informed answers, though.
And there is lying, boasting and dangerous misinformation.
And there is utter nonsense.
.
Annd most of yours are just that.

Not all, just most: the most memorable ones.


NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."