Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by octopus1 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:39 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
octopus1 wrote:But the entire system has "crash" written all over it.
Why do you say this, can you actually give a reason why?

Researching the actual architecture of this protocol and how stable it is (bitcointalk forum is a good start) is reather interesting. I don't think these things now created will ever go away now or crash.
Not the computer side of things, the financial side of it. Crash. Bust. Depression. Burst Bubble. Bear Market. Whatever you call it.

Early successes may breed a false confidence, with users "gambling" more and more of their assets. Until, one day, what goes up comes down, and they lose it all.

It's too new, uncertain and ragtag for me to risk it. If it ever mellows into a solid cohesive system, maybe then I'll throw some money at it.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:48 pm

Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:15 am

That's a year old, when bitcoin had literally just started booming. It boomed a hell of a lot more before coming back down again. In fact after that article predicted it would crash is about when I brought in, and then it it went up by ten fold over the following months :D See the charts here: https://bitcoinwisdom.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:59 am

zeuzzz wrote:That's a year old, when bitcoin had literally just started booming. It boomed a hell of a lot more before coming back down again. In fact after that article predicted it would crash is about when I brought in, and then it it went up by ten fold over the following months
I haven't been so excited since the Tulip bubble burst in 1637.

Here is a 1637 painting of all the workmen who quit their jobs to invest in Tulips.
Wagon of Fools 1640.jpg
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:57 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:That's a year old, when bitcoin had literally just started booming. It boomed a hell of a lot more before coming back down again. In fact after that article predicted it would crash is about when I brought in, and then it it went up by ten fold over the following months
I haven't been so excited since the Tulip bubble burst in 1637.

Here is a 1637 painting of all the workmen who quit their jobs to invest in Tulips.
Wagon of Fools 1640.jpg
Do you want to take a bet on the long term success of Bitcoin?

I accept BTC. No fiat currencies though.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:12 pm

I'll bet you all of my bitcoins against all of your fiat currency.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu May 01, 2014 1:21 am

zeuzzz wrote:Do you want to take a bet on the long term success of Bitcoin?
There were 1780 different currencies in the USA. I'm sure all their issuing banks made the same bet before they died out too.

No government is going to lose the ability to use monetary supply policy. That hinders the old Bitcoin's and any new replacement from growing. It is that simple.


"Several days ago, the tech rumor mills reported that Mt. Gox had a security problem. Some of their bitcoins, the rumors said, might have gone missing due to a vulnerability in their code. When Mt. Gox finally came clean to the public, it turned out that 750,000 of its customers' bitcoins—and 100,000 of their own—had been stolen. That's about $510 million worth. Or, to put it another way, about 7 percent of the entire bitcoin money supply. Disappeared. All at once. This past weekend, Mt. Gox filed for bankruptcy."

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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Thu May 01, 2014 10:05 pm

Austin Harper wrote:I'll bet you all of my bitcoins against all of your fiat currency.
DONE!

Literally no joke :D

I've got 80% of my life savings in various cryptos, 50% of which BTC.

I'll need a signature though.

You game?

PS. I'm a student. 'Life savings' is probably very different to what other peoples life savings are here.
Last edited by zeuzzz on Thu May 01, 2014 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Thu May 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:Do you want to take a bet on the long term success of Bitcoin?
There were 1780 different currencies in the USA. I'm sure all their issuing banks made the same bet before they died out too.

No government is going to lose the ability to use monetary supply policy. That hinders the old Bitcoin's and any new replacement from growing. It is that simple.


"Several days ago, the tech rumor mills reported that Mt. Gox had a security problem. Some of their bitcoins, the rumors said, might have gone missing due to a vulnerability in their code. When Mt. Gox finally came clean to the public, it turned out that 750,000 of its customers' bitcoins—and 100,000 of their own—had been stolen. That's about $510 million worth. Or, to put it another way, about 7 percent of the entire bitcoin money supply. Disappeared. All at once. This past weekend, Mt. Gox filed for bankruptcy."
mtgox is like a corrupt bank getting taken down for bad security ... it means absolutely nothing to the long term value of BTC. Basically they coded and organized their business so badly it was a disaster waiting to happen, I wont go into the details but in a nutshell they did not create multiple layer wallets with spread out security keys between parties with access to them, which lead to the possibility of transaction malleability being taken advantage of by individual people working in their business. Basically they failed and got screwed, and thus so did their customers.

The difference between this and a bank with billions is that the bank would be deemed (by the govenment) 'too big to fail', and thus subsidized with free printed money. They are just going to go down, and so luckily their utter incompetence can not hurt anyone else (unlike most big banks, who get government money to keep screwing people over). I have probably not explained this very well.

If you are actually at all interested in the details behind what I just said I can recommend this second 2-3 hour lecture on JRE by one of the most knowledgeable people about it, only a week or so old, in which they speak about every single thing anyone has brought up in this thread. Start at about 12:00 in to skip the adverts.

[ytube][/ytube]
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Thu May 01, 2014 10:22 pm

Let me try to re-contextualize my above post.

Blaming MT.GOX going bust as being the downfall of bitcoin is comparable to blaming myspace going bust to being the downfall of the internet.

Bitcoin is a protocol. Just like http. Nothing more, nothing less. If a major exchange goes down it is not the end of Bitcoin, just like when myspace went down it was not the end of the internet. People do not even have to use these big exchanges, with bitcoin you can be your own bank, on your own hard-drive. The only real reason these big exchanges came into being is because as a society we have this tendency to think that we have to trust big institutions with any large amount of money we earn.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Fri May 02, 2014 1:18 am

Comprende?
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat May 03, 2014 2:46 am

zeuzzz wrote:Comprende?
You haven't answered my question about governments needing to control supply.

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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Thu May 08, 2014 4:42 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:Comprende?
You haven't answered my question about governments needing to control supply.
I'm not sure. Eventually there will have to be some kind of government oversight. Once they work out a way to tax cryptocurrencies I'm sure they wont hesitate, at the moment they simply take the tax when a person cashes in a large taxable amount in fiat money, and they for some reason view Bitcoin as a property not a currency.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-2 ... -says.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The U.S. government will treat Bitcoin as property for tax purposes, applying rules it uses to govern stocks and barter transactions, the Internal Revenue Service said in its first substantive ruling on the issue.

Today’s IRS guidance will provide certainty for Bitcoin investors, along with income-tax liability that wasn’t specified before. Purchasing a $2 cup of coffee with Bitcoins bought for $1 would trigger $1 in capital gains for the coffee drinker and $2 of gross income for the coffee shop.

The IRS, faced with a choice of treating Bitcoins like currency or property, chose property. That decision could reduce the volume of transactions conducted with the virtual currency, said Pamir Gelenbe, a venture partner at Hummingbird Ventures, which invests in technology businesses.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu May 08, 2014 10:57 pm

zeuzzz wrote:I'm not sure. Eventually there will have to be some kind of government oversight.
It's more to do with "supply" by individual countries. Governments issue bonds. That's where money is "supplied". An international currency not controlled by individual governments cannot be used in this way.

You linked a ruling by the IRS that treats cryptocurrencies as property ( and thus capital gains tax) rather than barter currency. That was interesting. I'm a tax lawyer and when "new things" (generally financial schemes) turn up, there are a couple of court cases to characterize the "new thing" as revenue or property or something else.

I didn't think about this before but cryptocurrencies don't earn interest. The US tax office is going to treat any increase in value as though it was a realised capital gain on disposal of a share (stock). Capital gains are taxed at a lower rate than interest on deposits.

I went to the IRS and found their "public ruling" on cryptocurrencies. It is quite interesting and makes sense.


http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21 ... dium=email" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Thu May 08, 2014 11:34 pm

OMG you could not make this up.

http://rt.com/usa/157552-defense-pentag ... terrorism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
US Defense Dept. analyzing Bitcoin as potential terrorism threat

The US Defense Department is conducting a counterterrorism program investigation of virtual currencies like Bitcoin and other new technologies, including smartphones and social media, to better understand if they pose security threats.

Run by the Combating Terrorism Technical Support Office (CTTSO), a division of the Pentagon that analyzes terrorism and irregular warfare capabilities, the program recently ended its open call for vendors that could help the US military understand the technologies and any threats they could potentially pose, the International Business Times reported.

In an unclassified memo first published by Bitcoin Magazine, the CTTSO called for various solicitations for agency projects, including one for “innovative...solutions to develop and/or enhance new concepts and constructs for understanding the role of virtual currencies” in financing threats to the US.

“The introduction of virtual currency will likely shape threat finance by increasing the opaqueness, transactional velocity, and overall efficiencies of terrorist attacks,” the memo stated.
And I was so sure I wasn't a terrorist, now I'm probably on some surveillance watch list as a potential terrorist to surveil. FFS.

There's clearly monetary interests in fiat currencies that lie behind such actions.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Scott Mayers » Fri May 09, 2014 12:17 am

zeuzzz wrote:
octopus1 wrote:But the entire system has "crash" written all over it.
Why do you say this, can you actually give a reason why?

Researching the actual architecture of this protocol and how stable it is (bitcointalk forum is a good start) is reather interesting. I don't think these things now created will ever go away now or crash.
I think that the point here is that while you could gain by using the fact that it is new, eventually some of those who invest will eventually have to necessarily lose and lose big in order for this system to become even remotely stable. Even if this takes a while to reach the limit of the fixed supply, in order to get there requires more popularity and rests on the greed for which people depend on in order to fulfill its goal. But the more it increases in popularity, only those who have invested in these coins are at risk of loss. The way it stands now, the only thing that guarantees you keep making money by mining them is to depend on its popularity that you are trying to foster here on greed alone. This makes it a ponzi scheme until it has reached its finitely limited goal in which people will then complain of their losses to be able to cash in.

So, if you are actually sincerely interested in profiting, your pretense here of merely informing us here will be defeated if you continue because there are more people like me who will point out how or why we should be more skeptical than not. I'd take this advice seriously if you want to continue.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri May 09, 2014 12:40 am

zeuzzz wrote:And I was so sure I wasn't a terrorist, now I'm probably on some surveillance watch list as a potential terrorist to surveil. FFS.
I can't see how cryptocurrencies can be a terrorist threat. They aren't legal tender. The USA had to change it's notes when North Korea started printing billions of dollars in fake notes.
zeuzzz wrote:There's clearly monetary interests in fiat currencies that lie behind such actions.
More likely, some person at "Homeland Security" is trying to keep their job by inventing new threats.

I agree with you. The government can only tell you what you can't do. Until government does that, Cryptocurrencies have a right to exist and be traded. ( Unless they are just a pyramid or ponzi scheme to defraud....but that's up to the civil courts, not the government)

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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Scott Mayers » Fri May 09, 2014 1:06 am

Matthew,

They are necessarily Ponzi schemes for those who use it to make money upon the fact that they require getting in early in order to make money on its initial investment properties. For those who use them as pure currency, this is not the case. And if they remain in use after this period to reach its complete enumeration, they may be able to be used without the abuse that comes with it naturally. So, my advise is that if you are using it in the way zeuzzz has described using it in order to profit on its popularity, not on its current value as a monetary token for trading, you are only representing that you should be right to take advantage of the scheme simply because you can do it unchecked. If you want to invest in it for the purpose of making money on its Ponzi properties, then you'll have to accept the consequences of the behavior. It will be most likely that since those who invest in this for this purpose too, it is unlikely that they'd actually complain for their losses because they know that they are doing for illegitimate greed. So enter at your own risk. But don't complain after the fact for any and all possible reasons why you might end up being considered 'criminally' liable whether the courts agree or not.

There is a way that this could be done without this problem: by legitimately assuring this process of mining and its limits is assured, that all the programs involved in creating them are public knowledge, and that a clear warning up front to those who use it to benefit on its gain as a commodity to invest in is itself a gambling Ponzi scheme even if it is an inevitable evil in order to set up. In such a way, those who knowingly invest in it recognize that their investments in these is a purely speculative as a lottery.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri May 09, 2014 1:26 am

Scott Mayers wrote:Matthew, They are necessarily Ponzi schemes for those who use it to make money upon the fact that they require getting in early in order to make money on its initial investment properties. For those who use them as pure currency, this is not the case.
I understand what you are saying. However, the "property" can be traded and still fall under "Ponzi scheme" indicators, as the the property is in the form of "future right".

It gets a bit murky because "Ponzi" is an American legal term and similar Commonwealth laws are a bit different. "Future rights" are characterised as an asset that attracts capital gains on trading. "Future rights" can also participate in a pyramid or Ponzi scheme at the same time. It depends on the facts.

Technically, we would have to point at "someone" who activities indicate they are reaping a gain from transferring "new" capital investments to other "investors" that have been re-characterised as a dividend by the same person. I'm not sure how to apply this to cryptocurrencies.

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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Scott Mayers » Fri May 09, 2014 3:51 am

I think you can apply it with what I recommended. While it can be capable of abuse, if you let people know up front (without hiding it in 50 pages of EULAs), at least anyone who feeds into it should be aware that their investment is no different than a gamble in kind to a Ponzi scheme. Such schemes in themselves aren't necessarily bad; what the 'bad' part of it is is that people are justified in complaining about taking an option which they think is a perfectly safe and easy way to gain by it. The other things I suggest regarding legitimizing it by publically making all details of the program available AND granting a particular currency legitimate by a government acceptance or license, this can help others to trust in using it for the right purposes.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Fri May 09, 2014 11:17 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:I think you can apply it with what I recommended. While it can be capable of abuse, if you let people know up front (without hiding it in 50 pages of EULAs), at least anyone who feeds into it should be aware that their investment is no different than a gamble in kind to a Ponzi scheme. Such schemes in themselves aren't necessarily bad; what the 'bad' part of it is is that people are justified in complaining about taking an option which they think is a perfectly safe and easy way to gain by it. The other things I suggest regarding legitimizing it by publically making all details of the program available AND granting a particular currency legitimate by a government acceptance or license, this can help others to trust in using it for the right purposes.
I tend to agree with what you are saying if you are appealing to the ill informed reading this thread that maybe will perceive my posts as some kind of amazing investment to make money from. At the moment Bitcoins fiat money worth is still way too volatile for me to ever recommend anyone consider investing money in it to make a cheap buck.

The main thing I am interested in is the absense of any centralized controlling institution that can leech off all money invested in their corporation, essentially bitcoin has solved the attribution problem of fiat currencies by making it by design peer to peer, so the law can not sue anyone for making 'phoney money' like a traditional pyramid scheme would work. I notice you called cryptocurrencies (there are hundreds more than bitcoin now) "no different than a gamble in kind to a Ponzi scheme", how do you define that term?
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Scott Mayers » Sat May 10, 2014 12:57 am

zeuzzz wrote: The main thing I am interested in is the absense of any centralized controlling institution that can leech off all money invested in their corporation, essentially bitcoin has solved the attribution problem of fiat currencies by making it by design peer to peer, so the law can not sue anyone for making 'phoney money' like a traditional pyramid scheme would work. I notice you called cryptocurrencies (there are hundreds more than bitcoin now) "no different than a gamble in kind to a Ponzi scheme", how do you define that term?
Hi zeuzzz,
From your number of posts I didn't think that you had any bad intentions here.

As to what I am seeing as it being Ponzi, is the fact that these currencies act as a commodity for trading in which in order to make money on it requires investing in it whether directly or through mining while the returns are dependent upon more people investing in them or mining. Although you must mine them in order to create them, the present value is dependent upon the value due to their popularity. I might be in error dependent upon how the program operates. But this is indeterminate and only based on trust that it works. So, to me, if people get the impression that getting in on the mining aspect as well as using them can lead people into believing that the investment is 'free' money.

The impression you gave is that this does work for you but can tend to encourage others to invest in the mining (and trading) for the reason to make money. If this is what takes to make it popular, it will act to create the illusion of getting in early to cash in until the maximum is reached. But since the money that you make on it is only due to its increase in popularity, the more people invest in them, it makes you money on the nature of people investing more into them until it reaches that point.

I do see how this system can work. So my suggestion to present it up front that the system is not intended to make a profit by warning those not to invest in it if they believe that getting early in on it makes money. At least the caveat alone should alert people that if they think that they are getting a money-for-nothing scheme, although it may do this if others treat it as such, it should be at their knowledge that this is only an incidental effect and that some people certainly will lose if they use it just for this purpose alone.

Also, if the program itself is open to the public at least there will always be someone who would likely test it to see if there are any bad problems with such programs and can alert any abuses. If the governments at least provide license to assure these things, no other intervention would have to be required accept where someone finds abuse with the programming itself or people are not alerted to the risk of using it in a Ponzi-like way.

I realize that I could be missing some particular detail with regards to the logic of this setup. But I do have question why even the guy who initiated this is unwilling to even take official credit for it.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Sun May 11, 2014 10:09 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:I realize that I could be missing some particular detail with regards to the logic of this setup. But I do have question why even the guy who initiated this is unwilling to even take official credit for it.
I wonder that too, but he's stepped on a lot of major financial and banking instiutions toes by making it, so it's not really surprising, especially if he is Chinese like many people have assumed. Could have even been a collaborative effort by a group, we just don't know. Creating that in china would probably lead to jail time. It would probably even lead to a risk to their life in the west. Most of the other similar cryptocurrencies that have come after have got people's names behind them for some kind of accountability.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Mon May 12, 2014 12:17 am

New article in the UK guardian today, this could be a game changer for politicians that are very popular with the people but not represented fairly in the media.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2 ... -donations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
American politicians can now take bitcoin as legal political contributions, but not anonymously, after a ruling by the US federal election commission.

The Federal Election Commission (FEC) has ruled that politicians and political action committees (Pacs) – independent political campaign groups which don't have their contributions capped – can accept bitcoin, which must then be treated like other in-kind donations such as stocks and shares.

This means that groups and individuals who accept the currency must convert it into US dollars, and deposit those dollars into a campaign account, rather than spending the bitcoin directly.

But the much vaunted anonymity of bitcoin will not help US politicians: the commission still requires donors to list their names, addresses and occupations before they can donate the digital currency to politicians.

The ruling was made in response to a request by a Pac called Make Your Laws, which campaigns to replace representative democracy with a "liquid democracy" in which individuals are more directly involved with the legislative process.

[snip]
With a simple click of a button hundreds of thousands of people could donate anything from $1 to ... well anything.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Austin Harper » Wed May 14, 2014 5:34 pm

Slate wrote:Dogecoin Disaster
Such Sad. So Danger of Unsupervised Currency Markets.


The Great Dogecoin Heist is on. Millions of the meme-based cryptocurrency Dogecoin have vanished from the popular online wallet service Doge Vault, causing its site to shut down in an apparent hack. This might sound like a lot of gibberish to noncryptocurrency followers, so let me translate: The estimated 111 million in Dogecoin that are suspected stolen are worth approximately 50,000 real U.S. dollars.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Thu May 15, 2014 8:44 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Slate wrote:Dogecoin Disaster
Such Sad. So Danger of Unsupervised Currency Markets.


The Great Dogecoin Heist is on. Millions of the meme-based cryptocurrency Dogecoin have vanished from the popular online wallet service Doge Vault, causing its site to shut down in an apparent hack. This might sound like a lot of gibberish to noncryptocurrency followers, so let me translate: The estimated 111 million in Dogecoin that are suspected stolen are worth approximately 50,000 real U.S. dollars.
Ripple in a pond. The dogecoins I have mined are fine, as they are in my wallet. As soon as more people realize they don't have to trust huge corporations with their cryptocurrency of choice the less these massive fails on behalf of the companies that hold their coins will happen. I've just invested in a electrum wallet, which is essentially bitcoin lite, which enables you to rescue your wallet and bitcoins even if your hard drive gets nuked or breaks. The amount of innovation in this area at the moment is staggering, it's really hard to keep up.
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Australian Taxation Policy & Rulings

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:51 am

The Australian Taxation Office has issued a ruling that Cryptocurrencies are not a foreign currency but an asset.

https://www.ato.gov.au/general/gen/tax- ... y-bitcoin/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Under the Australian Tax Regime
Peter, the individual, spends $100 and buys $100 worth of Bitcoins from John.
John has to charge Peter an additional GST (Sales tax) of 10%.
Peter pays John another $10 ( which goes to the government)

The Bitcoins double in value over the next year and one day.
Peter sells the Bit coins for $200 to John.
Peter then charges John GST ( Sales tax) of $20 (which goes to the government)

Peter has a capital gain of $100 which is taxed as normal income.
Peter can only claim a 50% reduction in capital gains if Peter can show that "exactly the same "tranche" of Bit coins he purchased is the same he sold, because the asset must be owned for more than a year.

Essentially this means that Bitcoins are "more expensive" to trade than normal foreign currency because it attracts sales tax. Secondly, Bitcoin traders will never get the capital gains discount as they don't physically own the same Bitcoins for more than a year. This is extremely important.

Pragmatically, smart accountants, will convert the purchase of a Bitcoins to an optional right to purchase Bitcoins ( As "the right" is held for more than a year). However this is similar the tax treatment of "rights" and "options" on the Futures Exchange or Commodities Market. However the Futures Exchange requires that actual trading occurs on the Stock Exchange or Commodities Market to indicate actual share or commodities trading prices. However Bitcoins will become too expensive to trade because of sales tax. Therefore, trading cryptocurrencies is hindered, due to sales tax. Trading "rights' for tranches of Cryptocurrencies is too risky as the final future price indicator is too volatile.

Therefore the Australian Tax Office has "knobbled" cryptocurrency trading.

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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:54 pm

Well I was totally wrong about GPU's price never dropping, seems new cryptocurrencies all started to use new mining protocols that bypassed scrypt based litecoin mining. Too many new coins on the market now so GPU prices dropped way more than I thought. Sold as prices started dropping, broke even.

BTC prices have plummeted last week or so. From £350 to £190. I'm gona guess the $270 yesterday is the lowest it's gona drop and a {!#%@} of people brought in at that low price and we will see a rapid increase in value some time this month. But I'm not exactly mystic meg, it's anyone's guess.

The main thing that will boost BTC value at this point is whenever the current austerity bubble bursts and the dollar is challenged as the worlds reserve currency by China and Russias Petro-Ruble creating panic in western markets.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:07 pm

Video: Andreas Antonopoulos kicks asses at the Canadian Senate hearing on Bitcoin.

Uploaded yesterday.

Can't believe the senators applauded him at the end.

[ytube][/ytube]
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by octopus1 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:19 pm

zeuzzz wrote:Well I was totally wrong about GPU's price never dropping, seems new cryptocurrencies all started to use new mining protocols that bypassed scrypt based litecoin mining. Too many new coins on the market now so GPU prices dropped way more than I thought. Sold as prices started dropping, broke even.

BTC prices have plummeted last week or so. From £350 to £190. I'm gona guess the $270 yesterday is the lowest it's gona drop and a {!#%@} of people brought in at that low price and we will see a rapid increase in value some time this month. But I'm not exactly mystic meg, it's anyone's guess.

The main thing that will boost BTC value at this point is whenever the current austerity bubble bursts and the dollar is challenged as the worlds reserve currency by China and Russias Petro-Ruble creating panic in western markets.
Sell, sell, sell...
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:10 pm

octopus1 wrote: Sell, sell, sell...
I already did sell the hardware before the drop. Happy to hold my BTC for a fair while. The main benefit of BTC is not in investment for monetary gain (it can be but that's not why I'm an enthusiast) but in the ease of use as a global decentralized currency to transfer money from anywhere to any where to anybody instantly without any middlemen, exchange rates or fees, banks or corporations milking you along the way.

The other day I transferred £100 to a bank in Germany for goods. It took four days to process and my bank charged me £35 for an international transfer. I mean seriously, what the hell!
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:25 pm

zeuzzz wrote:Well I was totally wrong about GPU's price never dropping,
Now come on Zeuzzz, I just just gave you examples of recent tax rulings that clearly stated the holding value of "virtual currencies" would drop...........and they dropped.. They are not "currencies" but "mobile assets" used in barter.

If you are going to become a "Bitcoin analyst" you need to actually do some analysis now and then as the economic environment changes. Bitcoins have been converted into "Dutch tulips". Have you thought about what happened to "Dutch tulips" after that crash? People still buy & sell "Dutch tulips" today, so obviously they reached a new economic profitable equilibrium. Have you put you mind to the factors that will indicate the new economic equilibriums that will effect "virtual currencies"? There are many models from recent history to use.


zeuzzz wrote:The main thing that will boost BTC value at this point is whenever the current austerity bubble bursts and the dollar is challenged as the worlds reserve currency by China and Russias Petro-Ruble creating panic in western markets.
You are comparing an asset ( the so called "Virtual currencies") to a real international currency. Considering Russia's economy is rapidly reaching western purchase parity and has resources to sell China (unlike others), this new currency is going to remove trillions of dollars from G20 current traded currencies and may allow smaller resource rich countries to call the shots like a central banker, across economic borders. No one knows how damaging this is going to be to the Americas and Western Europe yet. Virtual currencies will become insignificant because people wont trade "stable assets" across economic borders using another "less stable asset" (virtual currency). It's just mathematics.

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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by SweetPea » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:52 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: They are not "currencies" but "mobile assets" used in barter.
Which is currency.
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http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:35 pm

The bank of England has weighed in with an article about crypocurrencies. Overall, they are not amused. There's gona be some serious friction between established central banks worldwide and crypocurrencies at some point in the future.

Innovations in payment technologies and the emergence of digital currencies

God damn thing wont copy/paste, here's a screen cap

Image

Also: The economics of digital currencies

Image
Last edited by zeuzzz on Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:28 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2 ... of-england" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bitcoin could pose a threat to financial stability in the UK should the digital currency's popularity take off, according to a series of reports by the Bank of England.

But restrictions on the number of coins in circulation, its inherent volatility and the prospect of higher transaction costs means it is unlikely to win over enough users to supplant the existing banking system, the central bank says.

The Bank argues the current centralised banking system, which stores and protects customer funds, will continue to dominate retail and business transactions "over any foreseeable horizon" under the current design of digital currencies.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:36 pm

Zeuzz, The UK is treating cryptocurrencies as a traded asset that attracts sales tax on every transaction. Buying and selling anything with cryptocurrencies is no different to bartering to buy a car with "sheep". "Dutch tulips" or "shiny beads".

You keep posting "emotionally worded editorials" when the economic ramifications are clearly set out in the legislation.

I ask you to familiarise yourself with the difference between "Currency" and "barter units" at HMRC For example, do I pay VAT when I acquire (take out of bank) pounds to pay my tax bill? If I tried to pay my tax bill in Cryptocurrency, who pays the VAT on the conversion of these "barter units" into acceptable currency to HMRC?

If you don't know.....then you really should know, if you claim to be an investor.

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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:39 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Zeuzz, The UK is treating cryptocurrencies as a traded asset that attracts sales tax on every transaction. Buying and selling anything with cryptocurrencies is no different to bartering to buy a car with "sheep". "Dutch tulips" or "shiny beads".

You keep posting "emotionally worded editorials" when the economic ramifications are clearly set out in the legislation.

I ask you to familiarise yourself with the difference between "Currency" and "barter units" at HMRC For example, do I pay VAT when I acquire (take out of bank) pounds to pay my tax bill? If I tried to pay my tax bill in Cryptocurrency, who pays the VAT on the conversion of these "barter units" into acceptable currency to HMRC?

If you don't know.....then you really should know, if you claim to be an investor.
I duno. When I'm a bitcoin billionaire I'll leave that kinda admin stuff up to my super sexy accountant.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:46 pm

zeuzzz wrote: I duno. When I'm a bitcoin billionaire I'll leave that kinda admin stuff up to my super sexy accountant.
In other words, you haven't a clue about how cryptocurrencies work. You don't know the capital gain tax ramifications. You don't know the sales tax ramifications. You have no investment plan, mapped out, at at all.

Fair enough.

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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:53 pm

Capital gain tax is sooo last year. Again my super sexy accountant will work all this stuff out while I've got my feet up on my supermodel wife on my yacht.
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Re: Anyone here got into cryptocurrencies ?

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:55 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote: I duno. When I'm a bitcoin billionaire I'll leave that kinda admin stuff up to my super sexy accountant.
In other words, you haven't a clue about how cryptocurrencies work. You don't know the capital gain tax ramifications. You don't know the sales tax ramifications. You have no investment plan, mapped out, at at all.

Fair enough.
On a more serious note I know how the cryptocurrencies work technically inside and out, however how they might be integrated into already existing monetary and legal systems I'm a lot more hazy about. I'm a student, solid investment plans and tax ramifications are not my forte. I'll need to re-read your posts here and give them some thought at some point when I've more time.
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