The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

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zeuzzz
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:12 pm

Daedalus wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:blahblahblahblahaassdfasdfasdf
Seriously, you need to stop spamming your blog, and you REALLY need to stop plagiarizing.
Plagiarizing myself? That's a new one :D I could keep linking to it every time if you want, but that'd probably annoy you more.

First time I've posted it here. And it'll be the last. People don't like reading links.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:25 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:blahblahblahblahaassdfasdfasdf
Seriously, you need to stop spamming your blog, and you REALLY need to stop plagiarizing.
Plagiarizing myself? That's a new one :D I could keep linking to it every time if you want, but that'd probably annoy you more.

First time I've posted it here. And it'll be the last. People don't like reading links.
No, you plagiarized someone else in your blog, and what you pasted of it here.
Not even subtly plagiarized I'd add... unless you're Terence McKenna? No?

It's OK... as always I never expect an honest reply from you, it's just another knot in the noose you're making for yourself. I honestly don't think you have the brains to stop.
"Propaganda is a monologue which seeks not a response, but an echo." (W.H. Auden)
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"The map is not the territory." (Alfred Korzybski)
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:31 pm

Bite me. I was the first put the time in to transcribe it online. Some paragraphs are my very own, some I wrote myself as the prose started flowing. I've added quotes and a reference now just to keep you happy, even around the parts that are my own material.

Now will you address the points made?
Last edited by zeuzzz on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:34 pm

zeuzzz wrote:Bite me.
I can't believe that you're much for bathing, so no thanks.

Really, I do wonder what goes through your tiny head when you rip off pages of text from someone and pass it off as your own, on your blog, and here. Nothing drives home what a joke you are like plagiarism zeuzzz, not even your normal run of laughable {!#%@}. :mrgreen:

Edit: Actually, you weren't, which is why it was so trivially easy to Google it and discover what you did. Even if you had been the first to plagiarize it, what do you want for that, a cookie? :lol:
Last edited by Daedalus on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Propaganda is a monologue which seeks not a response, but an echo." (W.H. Auden)
"Given time and plenty of paper, philosophers can prove anything." (Robert Heinlein)
"The map is not the territory." (Alfred Korzybski)
“You’re in the desert, you see a tortoise lying on its back, struggling, and you’re not helping — why is that?" (Bladerunner)

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:36 pm

Check the edit.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:38 pm

Daedalus wrote:what do you want for that, a cookie? :lol:
Yes please, hash brownie :D
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:44 pm

Your obsession with me rather than the content I post is becoming frankly rather embarrassing on your behalf.

Do you have anything to say on the topic of this thread?
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by nmblum88 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:24 pm

Daedalus wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:blahblahblahblahaassdfasdfasdf
Seriously, you need to stop spamming your blog, and you REALLY need to stop plagiarizing.

LOL
Hilarious..." stop spamming your blog and stop plagiarizing!"
Zeuzz.. for Christ's sake, .why don't you just put your stuff on Amazon.com for downloading.
You can call it "science."
Or "Fiction."
Although whatever you call it you can pretend it has some value that the world would be less for losing.
(You can actually if democracy still has any credence here.... advertise your garbage for sale without exciting the attention of the authorities.)
A human right along with life, and liberty....
Whatever you choose, by all means DON'T Give up your inalienable right to be as bat {!#%@}, out-of-this -world whackadoodle crazy as any other poster in any Forum on the internet that has no credentials test.
Including this one, which might even soon qualify for being renamed "Anything Goes."

Norma Manna Blum
Skepticism:
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Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:30 pm

nmblum wrote: LOL
Hilarious..." stop spamming your blog and stop plagiarizing!"
Zeuzz.. for Christ's sake, .why don't you just put your stuff on Amazon.com for downloading.
You can call it "science."
Or "Fiction."
Although whatever you call it you can pretend it has some value that the world would be less for losing.
(You can actually if democracy still has any credence here.... advertise your garbage for sale without exciting the attention of the authorities.)
A human right along with life, and liberty....
Whatever you choose, by all means DON'T Give up your inalienable right to be as bat {!#%@}, out-of-this -world whackadoodle crazy as any other poster in any Forum on the internet that has no credentials test.
Including this one, which might even soon qualify for being renamed "Anything Goes."

Norma Manna Blum
:lol:

I'll let you in a lil secret. I'm crazy.

Next secret: All the best people are.
Always be you, unless you can be a unicorn; then be a unicorn.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:31 pm

nmblum wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:blahblahblahblahaassdfasdfasdf
Seriously, you need to stop spamming your blog, and you REALLY need to stop plagiarizing.

LOL
Hilarious..." stop spamming your blog and stop plagiarizing!"
Zeuzz.. for Christ's sake, .why don't you just put your stuff on Amazon.com for downloading.
You can call it "science."
Or "Fiction."
Although whatever you call it you can pretend it has some value that the world would be less for losing.
(You can actually if democracy still has any credence here.... advertise your garbage for sale without exciting the attention of the authorities.)
A human right along with life, and liberty....
Whatever you choose, by all means DON'T Give up your inalienable right to be as bat {!#%@}, out-of-this -world whackadoodle crazy as any other poster in any Forum on the internet that has no credentials test.
Including this one, which might even soon qualify for being renamed "Anything Goes."

Norma Manna Blum
:lol:

Such a transparent nitwit.
"Propaganda is a monologue which seeks not a response, but an echo." (W.H. Auden)
"Given time and plenty of paper, philosophers can prove anything." (Robert Heinlein)
"The map is not the territory." (Alfred Korzybski)
“You’re in the desert, you see a tortoise lying on its back, struggling, and you’re not helping — why is that?" (Bladerunner)

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:18 pm

Daedalus wrote:
nmblum wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:blahblahblahblahaassdfasdfasdf
Seriously, you need to stop spamming your blog, and you REALLY need to stop plagiarizing.

LOL
Hilarious..." stop spamming your blog and stop plagiarizing!"
Zeuzz.. for Christ's sake, .why don't you just put your stuff on Amazon.com for downloading.
You can call it "science."
Or "Fiction."
Although whatever you call it you can pretend it has some value that the world would be less for losing.
(You can actually if democracy still has any credence here.... advertise your garbage for sale without exciting the attention of the authorities.)
A human right along with life, and liberty....
Whatever you choose, by all means DON'T Give up your inalienable right to be as bat {!#%@}, out-of-this -world whackadoodle crazy as any other poster in any Forum on the internet that has no credentials test.
Including this one, which might even soon qualify for being renamed "Anything Goes."

Norma Manna Blum
:lol:

Such a transparent nitwit.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

I think you meant 'reflective' nitwit. She describes herself well while looking in her house of mirrors mind.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:07 pm

Watch this. The most scientifically sound and informative documentary about DMT there is. If you ignore the mysticism espoused by the few woo mongers, and stick to the qualified and journal published scientists, then you can't go far wrong. Make of it what you will.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:01 pm

kennyc wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
nmblum wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:blahblahblahblahaassdfasdfasdf
Seriously, you need to stop spamming your blog, and you REALLY need to stop plagiarizing.

LOL
Hilarious..." stop spamming your blog and stop plagiarizing!"
Zeuzz.. for Christ's sake, .why don't you just put your stuff on Amazon.com for downloading.
You can call it "science."
Or "Fiction."
Although whatever you call it you can pretend it has some value that the world would be less for losing.
(You can actually if democracy still has any credence here.... advertise your garbage for sale without exciting the attention of the authorities.)
A human right along with life, and liberty....
Whatever you choose, by all means DON'T Give up your inalienable right to be as bat {!#%@}, out-of-this -world whackadoodle crazy as any other poster in any Forum on the internet that has no credentials test.
Including this one, which might even soon qualify for being renamed "Anything Goes."

Norma Manna Blum
:lol:

Such a transparent nitwit.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

I think you meant 'reflective' nitwit. She describes herself well while looking in her house of mirrors mind.
It's true that her capacity to relentlessly project her own shortcomings, loudly, is a little startling in anyone above the age of 10.

@zeuzzz: You have to know that nobody is actually reading the {!#%@} you post, right?
"Propaganda is a monologue which seeks not a response, but an echo." (W.H. Auden)
"Given time and plenty of paper, philosophers can prove anything." (Robert Heinlein)
"The map is not the territory." (Alfred Korzybski)
“You’re in the desert, you see a tortoise lying on its back, struggling, and you’re not helping — why is that?" (Bladerunner)

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:05 pm

Cool story bro.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:07 pm

zeuzzz wrote:Cool story bro.
You don't have to like what I'm saying zeuzzz, but take a poll and see many people read even a paragraph of your last plagiaristic orgasm. Go on... don't take my word for it, I could be wrong!
"Propaganda is a monologue which seeks not a response, but an echo." (W.H. Auden)
"Given time and plenty of paper, philosophers can prove anything." (Robert Heinlein)
"The map is not the territory." (Alfred Korzybski)
“You’re in the desert, you see a tortoise lying on its back, struggling, and you’re not helping — why is that?" (Bladerunner)

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:42 pm

I looked at a few of his posts initially...i rarely get beyond the first paragraph or so....
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:54 pm

Daedalus wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:Cool story bro.
You don't have to like what I'm saying zeuzzz, but take a poll and see many people read even a paragraph of your last plagiaristic orgasm. Go on... don't take my word for it, I could be wrong!
Back in high school, one of my English teachers inflicted Carlos Castaneda on us. I can never get those hours of my life back. I have never read anything since that was written (or purported to be written) by someone on drugs. Complete and utter waste of time.

To zeuzzzz et al: Enjoy your subjective experiences, Be my guest. But please don't try to convince me that it leads to any kind of greater understanding of anything at all.

So, since I would not likely look at a poll by zeuzzz, you have my proxy to vote as you wish. :twisted:
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Gord » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:58 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:Carlos Castaneda
What, the guy from Seinfeld??
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by fromthehills » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:38 am

I read a book by Castaneda. Sadly, I thought he found something I couldn't. It wasn't until later that I found out it was pure BS. It's too easy to be duped when you are trying to educate yourself, and find the wrong {!#%@}. I think a lot of people suffer from it.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by nmblum88 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:37 am

fromthehills wrote:I read a book by Castaneda. Sadly, I thought he found something I couldn't. It wasn't until later that I found out it was pure BS. It's too easy to be duped when you are trying to educate yourself, and find the wrong {!#%@}. I think a lot of people suffer from it.
Suffer from what?
It was a book, not a surgical operation.
And like any book (the bible, Dianetics, Dr. Coue, Freud, and Ayn Rand'a,) it had its audience, at least for its time and place.
It was the Sixties... and while everyone under thirty was talking about throwing off the ropes of convention, everything that attracts large groups of people becomes convention.

Som people followed Castenda's beliefs in the efficacy of drugs to expand the mind;. druggies believed, for some reason, that they all had minds worth expanding.
That turned out , decidedly, to be a great exaggeration, and like all of our beliefs in our own intelligence, a not very dependable one.
So most of them went back to school, studied dentistry or accounting,, got married, had cars and houses and kids.
And lived unhappily every after..... just like everybody else.

But some people did end up as basket cases, , their threshold for recovering from the bended mind was very low..

But it was THE SIXTIES.... and from what I read here, a little bit (or maybe more) or nostalgia for those days hangs in the air over the most conventional of participants: references to their own drug taking, weed, magic mushrooms, the music for sure, and even the casting off of hangups about the flesh... and its getting hard to find people in their early sixties who won't admit to NOT having been at WOODSTOCK...
"Wasnt that a TIME?" Rained for three days straight!!"

One thing that did come out of the Casteneda et al... contributions to life style, is that the up -tight, waspy white folks attitudes toward physical love and the bod did seem to take a holiday..
And it's turned into a long weekend for a lot of people.
So there is that.
But, you're right in that jumping on popular (or seemingly popular) bandwagons has never been a good idea.
Wasn't that what Plato was trying to tell us, in "Apology and Crito?"

NMB
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Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by fromthehills » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:52 am

I think you asked me a question and then answered it.

But in regard to "Apology" and "Crito", I was fairly sure that they were about justice and Socrates' trial.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by nmblum88 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:18 am

fromthehills wrote:I think you asked me a question and then answered it.
That was in case you DIDN'T answer it.
That happens sometimes... and I don't like to be disappointed, so I do take it upon myself to fill in.
You CAN add though...

] But in regard to "Apology" and "Crito", I was fairly sure that they were about justice and Socrates' trial.
But at the heart of the matter (I think) was the issue of how far one should go to be at one with the majority.
Where conformity is a sort of responsibility to keep society on an even keel (i.e. choose your battles).
And when to make a stand in favor of one's own perceived integrity - one's sense of right and wrong, against the government, the crowd, the gods.

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by fromthehills » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:55 am

nmblum wrote:
fromthehills wrote:I think you asked me a question and then answered it.
That was in case you DIDN'T answer it.
That happens sometimes... and I don't like to be disappointed, so I do take it upon myself to fill in.
You CAN add though...
Alright. My opinion is that when one reads something that seems to be autobiographical, but isn't versed enough in BS detection, then one can get duped. Just as one may watch Oprah, say, and see a real doctor recommend Reiki as a complimentary medicine. Without the proper education on critical thinking, one may suffer. One may suffer severely if they were to read the benefits, the spirituality, of drug use. They may lose their {!#%@}, and end up on their parents front porch marveling at all the pretty colors when they're 50; stuck in a permanently brain damaged state.
] But in regard to "Apology" and "Crito", I was fairly sure that they were about justice and Socrates' trial.
But at the heart of the matter (I think) was the issue of how far one should go to be at one with the majority.
Where conformity is a sort of responsibility to keep society on an even keel (i.e. choose your battles).
And when to make a stand in favor of one's own perceived integrity - one's sense of right and wrong, against the government, the crowd, the gods.

NMB
I'd have to reread it to have an opinion. I don't remember, but I think there was something about two wrongs not making a right, so facing a wrongful death was better than escaping justice. I'll read them again, later, but for now, I'm off for bed.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:14 am

OlegTheBatty wrote: To zeuzzzz et al: Enjoy your subjective experiences, Be my guest. But please don't try to convince me that it leads to any kind of greater understanding of anything at all.
That was never the intention. Thus the tongue in cheek title of the thread.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by nmblum88 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:42 am

That was in case you DIDN'T answer it.
That happens sometimes... and I don't like to be disappointed, so I do take it upon myself to fill in.
You CAN add though...
Alright. My opinion is that when one reads something that seems to be autobiographical, but isn't versed enough in BS detection, then one can get duped. Just as one may watch Oprah, say, and see a real doctor recommend Reiki as a complimentary medicine. Without the proper education on critical thinking, one may suffer. One may suffer severely if they were to read the benefits, the spirituality, of drug use. They may lose their {!#%@}, and end up on their parents front porch marveling at all the pretty colors when they're 50; stuck in a permanently brain damaged state.
Okay.. and for sure.
Wh couldn't agree with that?
Doing things that do not have a guaranteed outcome is foolhardy and dangerous, but it is in the nature of many humans to do just that.
And when it comes to books, or even just trying something... a new food for instance .. what guarantee is there that the adventure won't kill you?
Are you saying that reading is dangerous because many children lack the intelligence OR the discrimination to separate the valid from the preposterous?

I don't do drugs, never did; I am much too controlling, and much too proud of my acquired power to make decisions for myself based on reason ... to surrender myself to mind altering drugs.
I'm not really particularly proud of that, but it is a fact.
And I was no admirer of Casteneda as a role model for a alternate life style, BUT I do realize that people, especially young people are attracted to ideas and lives that cancel out the admonition of their parents.
And isn't that in its non-drug form, necessary to progress, to new ways of doing things, to ringing out the old, and getting on with the new?
During the sixties... one the mass goals of kids was to separate themselves from the concerns, the ambitions, the values of their parents..
And many of them opted for sittin gcrossed leg on Arizona mesas imagining they were not only escaping but changing the world...
Perhaps if you have been a post adolescent in those seemingly heady (but actually rather poignantly foolish days) you would have opted to do it another way.... but I doubt that you would have stayed at home working to be like your parents...
Rebelling is what the young do.... Casteneda added another dimension to the rebellion, and even appealed to disaffected adults.
And as I said, some people came through it with only the memories of nights on the mountain , doped up,staring into to space, strumming guitars most of them never really leaned to play, and turned into their parent later.
And some people suffered for the adventure... but it wasn't because of Casteneda,
It was who they were to begin with.
In a sad and terrible way (but there is no justice in nature) it was a way of separating leaders from followers, wheat, so to speak from chaff.
People died or went mad from taking drugs, and George W, Bush went on to be President...
I have a cousin who is still wearing his Sgt Pepper military coat, and hasn't had a job in 40 years, although he was once on his way to becoming a promising film make.
Until he discovered new age philosophies and Mexican mushrooms, and inevitably cocaine...
But that wasn't from READING, it was from imbibing... and to excess.
Do you regret reading something because on reflection you realize the message was faulty?
Or incompatible with your values?
I dunno.
To me,one can't know a good book from a bad one without having first read a hell of a lot of books... MOST of them being not worth much at all.
Ditto music: you have good taste (great taste really) in music, because obviously you have listened to reams of it,.
And food? There ARE people who truly believe that pozole is disgusting inedible, and that there is nothing more edifying satisfying than a Big Mac..
Going out on a limb is what makes life interesting... and if one doesn't do it in youth,when, pray, do your think it gets done?
,
] But in regard to "Apology" and "Crito", I was fairly sure that they were about justice and Socrates' trial.
But at the heart of the matter (I think) was the issue of how far one should go to be at one with the majority.
Where conformity is a sort of responsibility to keep society on an even keel (i.e. choose your battles).
And when to make a stand in favor of one's own perceived integrity - one's sense of right and wrong, against the government, the crowd, the gods.

NMB[/quote]
I'd have to reread it to have an opinion. I don't remember, but I think there was something about two wrongs not making a right, so facing a wrongful death was better than escaping justice. I'll read them again, later, but for now, I'm off for bed.
[/quote][/quote]
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Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Pyrrho » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:14 am

I have locked the "zeuzzz" user account while I consider further administrative action for violating forum rules regarding copyright.

And no, just posting a credit to the original author does not make it fair use.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Pyrrho » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:27 am

Meanwhile:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1 ... al#showall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/8 ... ew#showall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:01 pm

Pyrrho wrote:Meanwhile:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1 ... al#showall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/8 ... ew#showall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'd add that the best information available argues for the notion that if you have an underlying dormant psychological condition such as Schizophrenia, LSD, DMT, even Psilocybin can trigger it. Given the best new research that seems to indicate some people can actually AVOID those disorders ever reaching their full flower, it's quite the set of dice to roll in the name of getting high.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:43 pm

Daedalus wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Meanwhile:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1 ... al#showall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/8 ... ew#showall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'd add that the best information available argues for the notion that if you have an underlying dormant psychological condition such as Schizophrenia, LSD, DMT, even Psilocybin can trigger it. Given the best new research that seems to indicate some people can actually AVOID those disorders ever reaching their full flower, it's quite the set of dice to roll in the name of getting high.
. . . or, it shows that if there is an underlying psychological condition, there is a greater liklihood that the person will use psychoactive drugs. Or, maybe, it shows something else. It's just a correlation, with no known causal pathway.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:07 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Meanwhile:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1 ... al#showall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/8 ... ew#showall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'd add that the best information available argues for the notion that if you have an underlying dormant psychological condition such as Schizophrenia, LSD, DMT, even Psilocybin can trigger it. Given the best new research that seems to indicate some people can actually AVOID those disorders ever reaching their full flower, it's quite the set of dice to roll in the name of getting high.
. . . or, it shows that if there is an underlying psychological condition, there is a greater liklihood that the person will use psychoactive drugs. Or, maybe, it shows something else. It's just a correlation, with no known causal pathway.
or as Forest Gump says, "Crazy is as Crazy does."
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:46 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Meanwhile:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1 ... al#showall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/8 ... ew#showall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'd add that the best information available argues for the notion that if you have an underlying dormant psychological condition such as Schizophrenia, LSD, DMT, even Psilocybin can trigger it. Given the best new research that seems to indicate some people can actually AVOID those disorders ever reaching their full flower, it's quite the set of dice to roll in the name of getting high.
. . . or, it shows that if there is an underlying psychological condition, there is a greater liklihood that the person will use psychoactive drugs. Or, maybe, it shows something else. It's just a correlation, with no known causal pathway.
There is in fact a huge correlation between drug abuse and many mental illnesses, but in this case you're talking about abuse pre-dating symptoms. A recent bit of work that is, I admit, still in the works pre-publishing studied a cohort of identical twins adopted separately. The target group had first-order relatives with Schizophrenia, usually a parent.

In this case the study looked at stressful environment's impact on the likliehood of developing Schizophrenia. Two interesting points are:

1.) Take a scan of both kid's brains and they show the same suspicious markers that indicate a risk of developing Schizophrenia.

2.) Those in a "healthy" environment had the same rate of developing Schizophrenia as the background population with their risk factors. The group in a much more stressful environment had greatly elevated (~30% higher) risk of Schizophrenia.

What this suggests (and it is uncertain) is that Schizophrenia at least is subject to environmental factors that can play some kind of epigenetic role. This correlation then, supports the notion established for decades that stress is not the only risk factor for someone "at-risk" moving out the "latent/possible" category into a full-fledged illness.

It's tough to study, and it's tough to study a history of drug abuse pre-dating symptoms for any mental illness after the fact, no question there. It will be some time before it's more than correlation, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't take notice. The reality is that the best work done so far indicates that for many mental illnesses, especially delusional disorders, psychedelic/hallucinogenic drug use increases the chances of at-risk groups to develop their illness.

You're welcome to reject that, but you might want to actually explore the research before you do.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Poodle » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:06 pm

So ... did you still have your eyes closed when "a myriad of beams of glistening light burst out" of your mouth? Or doesn't internal consistency in fiction mean anything these days?

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:33 pm

Poodle wrote:So ... did you still have your eyes closed when "a myriad of beams of glistening light burst out" of your mouth? Or doesn't internal consistency in fiction mean anything these days?
I'd be more concerned about the laser led's and electricity in a wet area like a mouth..
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:01 am

Poodle wrote:So ... did you still have your eyes closed when "a myriad of beams of glistening light burst out" of your mouth? Or doesn't internal consistency in fiction mean anything these days?
I'm sure that he'd love to answer you, but he's a little locked right now. :lol:
"Propaganda is a monologue which seeks not a response, but an echo." (W.H. Auden)
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:32 am

Daedalus wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Meanwhile:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1 ... al#showall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/8 ... ew#showall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'd add that the best information available argues for the notion that if you have an underlying dormant psychological condition such as Schizophrenia, LSD, DMT, even Psilocybin can trigger it. Given the best new research that seems to indicate some people can actually AVOID those disorders ever reaching their full flower, it's quite the set of dice to roll in the name of getting high.
. . . or, it shows that if there is an underlying psychological condition, there is a greater liklihood that the person will use psychoactive drugs. Or, maybe, it shows something else. It's just a correlation, with no known causal pathway.
There is in fact a huge correlation between drug abuse and many mental illnesses, but in this case you're talking about abuse pre-dating symptoms. A recent bit of work that is, I admit, still in the works pre-publishing studied a cohort of identical twins adopted separately. The target group had first-order relatives with Schizophrenia, usually a parent.

In this case the study looked at stressful environment's impact on the likliehood of developing Schizophrenia. Two interesting points are:

1.) Take a scan of both kid's brains and they show the same suspicious markers that indicate a risk of developing Schizophrenia.

2.) Those in a "healthy" environment had the same rate of developing Schizophrenia as the background population with their risk factors. The group in a much more stressful environment had greatly elevated (~30% higher) risk of Schizophrenia.

What this suggests (and it is uncertain) is that Schizophrenia at least is subject to environmental factors that can play some kind of epigenetic role. This correlation then, supports the notion established for decades that stress is not the only risk factor for someone "at-risk" moving out the "latent/possible" category into a full-fledged illness.

It's tough to study, and it's tough to study a history of drug abuse pre-dating symptoms for any mental illness after the fact, no question there. It will be some time before it's more than correlation, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't take notice. The reality is that the best work done so far indicates that for many mental illnesses, especially delusional disorders, psychedelic/hallucinogenic drug use increases the chances of at-risk groups to develop their illness.

You're welcome to reject that, but you might want to actually explore the research before you do.
I'm not rejecting anything. There may be a trigger from psychoactives. I'm pointing out that there are other possible explanations. I will also note that they are not mutually exclusive. Both may be true.

There may also be something else (or elses) going on. There is a lot unknown about brain function.

I do volunteer work with addicts. In those who have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, there is a huge difference in behaviour and manifestation of illness when they are doing psychoactives. All of them were doing drugs long before they were diagnosed. I see nothing that would contradict the hypothesis that the psychoactives triggered the overt manifestation of their illnesses. At the same time, when they describe their early teen experiences, they often describe symptoms of bipolar. That doesn't mean that they should have been diagnosed that long ago. Usually, it's one or two indicators - not enough for anything, really. You can't diagnose that way.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Pyrrho » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:09 am

I've edited the post to remove the copyrighted content, I have locked the post, and I have reactivated the user's account.

If this happens again I will probably ban him. Consider this an official warning.

Ooh, aah, official warning....I'm all perspiring and stuff. Meh.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:20 pm

Thanks Pyrro for your understanding. It will not happen again.

The above posts by Daedelus and OlegTheBatty are extremely refreshing. Nice to see some informed skepticism of the idea that psychedelics destroy your brain or correlate to mental disorder being dispelled. There certainly is a link, but it's not causative, it's more that people with predisposed disorders get these underlying conditions exposed by the use of these psychedelics. And to someone with dormant psychotic tendencies or dormant schizophrenia this will only exacerbate these symptoms, and possibly bring them to the surface.

The same is true with social anxiety, of which cannabis seems to be the worst at bringing the symptoms of this to the surface.
Last edited by zeuzzz on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:34 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Meanwhile:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1 ... al#showall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/8 ... ew#showall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'd add that the best information available argues for the notion that if you have an underlying dormant psychological condition such as Schizophrenia, LSD, DMT, even Psilocybin can trigger it. Given the best new research that seems to indicate some people can actually AVOID those disorders ever reaching their full flower, it's quite the set of dice to roll in the name of getting high.
. . . or, it shows that if there is an underlying psychological condition, there is a greater liklihood that the person will use psychoactive drugs. Or, maybe, it shows something else. It's just a correlation, with no known causal pathway.
There is in fact a huge correlation between drug abuse and many mental illnesses, but in this case you're talking about abuse pre-dating symptoms. A recent bit of work that is, I admit, still in the works pre-publishing studied a cohort of identical twins adopted separately. The target group had first-order relatives with Schizophrenia, usually a parent.

In this case the study looked at stressful environment's impact on the likliehood of developing Schizophrenia. Two interesting points are:

1.) Take a scan of both kid's brains and they show the same suspicious markers that indicate a risk of developing Schizophrenia.

2.) Those in a "healthy" environment had the same rate of developing Schizophrenia as the background population with their risk factors. The group in a much more stressful environment had greatly elevated (~30% higher) risk of Schizophrenia.

What this suggests (and it is uncertain) is that Schizophrenia at least is subject to environmental factors that can play some kind of epigenetic role. This correlation then, supports the notion established for decades that stress is not the only risk factor for someone "at-risk" moving out the "latent/possible" category into a full-fledged illness.

It's tough to study, and it's tough to study a history of drug abuse pre-dating symptoms for any mental illness after the fact, no question there. It will be some time before it's more than correlation, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't take notice. The reality is that the best work done so far indicates that for many mental illnesses, especially delusional disorders, psychedelic/hallucinogenic drug use increases the chances of at-risk groups to develop their illness.

You're welcome to reject that, but you might want to actually explore the research before you do.
I'm not rejecting anything. There may be a trigger from psychoactives. I'm pointing out that there are other possible explanations. I will also note that they are not mutually exclusive. Both may be true.

There may also be something else (or elses) going on. There is a lot unknown about brain function.

I do volunteer work with addicts. In those who have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, there is a huge difference in behaviour and manifestation of illness when they are doing psychoactives. All of them were doing drugs long before they were diagnosed. I see nothing that would contradict the hypothesis that the psychoactives triggered the overt manifestation of their illnesses. At the same time, when they describe their early teen experiences, they often describe symptoms of bipolar. That doesn't mean that they should have been diagnosed that long ago. Usually, it's one or two indicators - not enough for anything, really. You can't diagnose that way.

Comme si, comme ca
There are other possible causes, but at least in the case of schizophrenia that correlation is incredibly clear and persistent. I would liken it to identifying a carcinogen without understanding the mechanism by which it acts on genetic material. You have clear correlation, but lacking deeper insight you can only inform people of the risks and keep looking.

I have to admit that bi-polar is... probably the TOUGHEST disorder to apply this to. As I suppose you know, a truly huge percentage of people with bi-polar disorders use drugs, and the onset is much more fluid than with typical Schizophrenia. At best it can be said that if one major disorder can be triggered by a neurological insult from hallucinogens, it's not far-fetched that others might be.

The issue is that it's just so hard to establish a time of real onset or latency for bi-polar disorder, so getting an actual study done to show increased severity or likelihood of onset is too tough.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:09 am

OlegTheBatty wrote: To zeuzzzz et al: Enjoy your subjective experiences, Be my guest. But please don't try to convince me that it leads to any kind of greater understanding of anything at all.
My thing is not about my experience, It's about an experience you have. I think Mckenna put it rather well when he summed up what these things are great tools for when he said what he does in this one minute video.

I just transcribed it:

"And every one of us when we go into the psychedelic state, this is what we should be looking for. It's not for your elucidation, it's not part of your self-directed psychotherapy. You are an explorer, and you represent our species, and the greatest good you can do, is to bring back a new idea, because our world is in danger by the absence of good ideas. Our world is in crisis because of the absence of consciousness. And so to whatever degree any one of us, can bring back a small piece of the picture and contribute it to the building to the new paradigm, then we participate in the redemption of the human spirit, and that after all it what it's really all about."

One thing you can certainly say about psychedelics is the they stretch the the envelope of the imaginable, they are catalysts for creativity. The literature has borne this out time and time again. They promote a larger horizon of reality than could previously be imagined, if it can be imagined then it can be created, and without psychedelics what can not be imagined is not even part of the play; but the psychedelics dissolve even that boundary as well. You know what's in your house, or your locker, for gods sake you should know what's kept in your own mind. So if you are suddenly in the presence of something that could previously not be imagined there is no reason for believing you generated it out of yourself.

Where these images come from I can not say. No one has the truth on that. If anything, my psychedelic experiences haven't shown me a world of truth, but made me realize this world is full of lies consisting of cultural relativity, a reality in which most acultured people spend their entire lives inhabiting.

Cultures are relative, that's why they call traveling a 'trip' or a 'journey', like the use of psychedelics. They reveal the relativity of cultural values and world views.

Science has a rich history of people using these substances getting Nobel prizes and making revolutionary breakthroughs. I listed some here in a forum post.

The peculiar relationship between genius, creativity, intelligence and psychedelics
I think its notable that many prominent scientists have admittedly taken drugs. This serves as a great counterargument to those who think drugs somehow destroy your brain. The question of whether these creative, mathematical and scientific feats of genius were because of the drugs or despite them, remains an open question. One thing is for sure, all these people were already considerably intelligent before they took these drugs, the taking of these drugs is not somehow going to turn a normal person into a genius.

Kary Mullis was a scientific luminary who has been public about the benefits to be gained from mind-expanding drugs is Kary Mullis. Mullis won the 1993 Nobel Prize in chemistry for developing a now commonly used technique called the "polymerase chain reaction," which allows scientists to quickly and easily duplicate segments of DNA.

In his 1998 autobiography Dancing Naked in the Mind Field, Mullis claimed "I think I might have been stupid in some respects, it if weren't for my psychedelic experiences."

Mullis also describes his first LSD trip in 1966, before the drug had been banned. Under the advice of his friend, he tried marijuana first, and then later ate a 1000 microgram dose of Owsley acid. "I didn't finish dinner. I started laughing. I got up from the table and realized, on the way to the couch, that everything I knew was based on a false premise. I fell down through the couch into another world."

The next day, while assimilating the experience, Mullis was inspired to understand more about neurology and biochemistry. "I wanted to understand what had happened. How could 1000 micrograms - one thousandth of a gram - of some chemical cause my entire {!#%@} sensorium to undergo such incredible changes? What mechanisms inside my brain were being so drastically affected? What did these chemicals do to my visuals? I wanted to know how it worked. I wanted to know more about neurochemistry."

"What if I had not taken LSD ever; would I have still invented PCR? I don't know. I doubt it. I seriously doubt it."


Steve Jobs - Apple Products. Many people may know of the revelations CEO and co-founder of Apple, Steve Jobs, provided to the Department of Defense in 1988. Job's indicated that he had consumed LSD on a dozen or so occasions. Jobs died on October 5th of 2011 after fighting pancreatic cancer.

"It was a positive life changing experience for me, and I am glad I went through that experience," Jobs said of his several trips from 1972-74. "I would ingest the LSD on a sugar cube or in a hard form of gelatin. I would usually take the LSD when I was by myself."

In another quote from Job's:

“Taking LSD was a profound experience, one of the most important things in my life. LSD shows you that there’s another side to the coin, and you can’t remember it when it wears off, but you know it. It reinforced my sense of what was important—creating great things instead of making money, putting things back into the stream of history and of human consciousness as much as I could.”

Carl Sagan was a regular user of cannabis from the early 60's until his death in 1996. Like Gould, Sagan was also best known for his ability to explain his complex ideas to the general public (CC#32 Carl Sagan: visionary scientist).

Sagan was close friends with Harvard professor Dr Lester Grinspoon, a leading advocate of decriminalization. In an anonymous essay which Sagan wrote for Grinspoon's book Marijuana Reconsidered, Sagan explained how cannabis use had on occasion inspired him to produce scientific papers which won later acclaim.

Sagan disputed the "myth" of the pot high – that the insights achieved while stoned are illusory. "I am convinced that this is an error," wrote Sagan, "and that the devastating insights achieved when high are real insights; the main problem is putting these insights in a form acceptable to the quite different self that we are when we're down the next day."

One classic anecdote from the mid-1980's shows Sagan's devotion to the inspirational effects of kind buds. Grinspoon had received some unsolicited buds from an admirer, and he shared the high-potency joints with Sagan and his wife Ann Druyan one evening. Afterwards Sagan said "Lester, I know you've only got one left, but could I have it? I've got serious work to do tomorrow and I could really use it."

Although Sagan's pot use didn't become common knowledge until after his death, his last wife Druyan was a long-time board member and important fundraiser for the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML).

Here is an essay written by him (anonymously at time of writing)
http://www.marijuana-uses.com/essays/002.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a myth about such highs: the user has an illusion of great insight, but it does not survive scrutiny in the morning. I am convinced that this is an error, and that the devastating insights achieved when high are real insights; the main problem is putting these insights in a form acceptable to the quite different self that we are when we're down the next day. Some of the hardest work I've ever done has been to put such insights down on tape or in writing. The problem is that ten even more interesting ideas or images have to be lost in the effort of recording one. It is easy to understand why someone might think it's a waste of effort going to all that trouble to set the thought down, a kind of intrusion of the Protestant Ethic. But since I live almost all my life down I've made the effort - successfully, I think. Incidentally, I find that reasonably good insights can be remembered the next day, but only if some effort has been made to set them down another way. If I write the insight down or tell it to someone, then I can remember it with no assistance the following morning; but if I merely say to myself that I must make an effort to remember, I never do.


Francis Crick, the Nobel Prize-winning father of modern genetics, was under the influence of LSD when he first deduced the double-helix structure of DNA over 50 years ago. And years later Nobel-prize-winning chemist. It is speculated that while on LSD, Crick, a Molecular Biologist and Nobel Prize Winner of Modern Genetics, became the first man to piece together the constituents that form the double helix of Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA). This revelation afforded mankind a mechanism that encoded priceless information known as, "The Genetic Code".

Crick died on July 28th 2004, and people close to him by his death bed have since stated some of his last words were confirming these rumors, which he was scared to do for fear of scarring his reputation when he was alive, although official quotes are not available. There are many people that knew him personally, like Dick Kemp, a close friend of Crick who has supported this claim.


Kevin Herbert - Router Software. Herbert, a self taught former Cisco Systems Programmer from California and strong supporter of Civil Liberties, developed software that runs millions of routers worldwide. Herbert has gone on record with Louise Reitman at MAPS stating:

From my personal experience, psychedelics have helped me to get past some of my most challenging problems. Overall, I feel like it’s affected the development of my ideas about what our responsibility is to society for the kinds of technologies that we develop. I think that it also has given me insight into how to create technology. So, extrapolating from there, I think that many technical people have been exposed to LSD—although, it’s hard to say just how many people. This is because engineers working in corporate situations don’t want to get into trouble.

Psychedelics are especially helpful with the development of new computer technologies because recent developments have shifted toward more open technology, and an increased reliance upon software, as opposed to reliance on machines and mechanisms. I think the fact that everything in the world has become more and more flexible, and more programmable, is a result of people taking LSD at early times in their life, like in high school or college. It changes one’s vision of the kinds of technology that one can build. It encourages a departure from things being rigid and imposing.

Stephen Jay Gould. Renowned scientist and Harvard Professor Stephen Jay Gould died in May 2002, of lung cancer. Gould was the author of many books on science and evolution, including The Mismeasure of Man, and his massive 1400-page opus The Structure of Evolutionary Theory, published shortly after his death. While many obituaries marked Gould's passing, few mentioned that Gould had been usingmarijuana since at least 1982. That was the year Gould was diagnosed with a rare and incurable cancer called abdominal mesothelioma, and told he had eight months to live.

Gould survived and thrived for 20 years after receiving that grim diagnosis, with treatments including surgery, radiation, and chemotherapy. Yet above and beyond these, Gould claimed that it was pot that saved his life. "The most important effect upon my eventual cure," said Gould, "was the illegal drug, marijuana."

Gould testified to the benefits of medical marijuana in August 1998, at the trial of Ontario med-pot patient and activist Jim Wakeford (CC#15, Jim Wakeford - Canada's Best Hope for Medical Marijuana?). He told the court how "absolutely nothing" worked to treat his severe nausea, except for marijuana, which "worked like a charm."

"It is beyond my comprehension that any humane person would withhold such a beneficial substance from people in such great need simply because others use it for different purposes," said Gould.

Yet Gould did not admit to being a pot head. "I was reluctant to try it because I have never smoked any substance habitually, and didn't even know how to inhale. Moreover, I had tried marijuana twice… and had hated it." Yet chronic use of medicinal marijuana robbed Gould of none of his intellectual vigor. His critically-acclaimed The Structure of Evolutionary Theory was researched and written over the two decades that Gould was using pot heavily to maintain his health.

Gould was also a signatory to a 1998 advertisement in the New York Times, which took two full pages to appeal for a new international drug policy. "We believe the global war on drugs is now causing more harm than drug abuse itself," the ad claimed.

(Other signatories to the ad included Walter Cronkite, former US Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders, former Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach, former Secretary of State George Shultz, Mayor Willie Brown of San Francisco, Mayor Kurt Schmoke of Baltimore, Mayor Susan Hammer of San Jose, Milton Friedman, and a variety of judges, police, academics and other prominent citizens.)

Douglas Engelbart - The Mouse. It is no secret that Engelbart used LSD and other psychedelic drugs for inspiration and solving tough problems while tripping to drum solos by the Grateful Dead.. It is unknown to me if he invented the mouse while on the drug, but he is quoted:

"It must be changing something about the internal communication in my brain. Whatever my inner process is that lets me solve problems, it works differently, or maybe different parts of my brain are used. When I’m on LSD and hearing something that’s pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into another brain state where I’ve stopped thinking and started knowing."


Richard Feynman was an extraordinary intellect who revolutionized modern physics. During his astounding career he helped design the atomic bomb, created a Nobel Prize winning theory of quantum electrodynamics, became a skilled safecracker and exposed the flaws which had led to the space shuttle Challenger disaster. His autobiography Surely you're joking, Mr Feynman! is full of anecdotes as to how he used his vast repertoire of arcane mathematical knowledge and plain common sense to outsmart and outwit the scientific, political and military establishments.

Feynman was a brilliant scientist long before he sampled marijuana and LSD while in his mid 50's, but he did claim to have learned from the mind-expanding experiences. Feynman was a friend of John Lilly, a researcher who pioneered the use of the tanks, studied psychedelics and consciousness, and is best known for his work with dolphins. Feynman's use of these illegal substances was mostly in the context of experimenting with his own consciousness while in a sensory deprivation tank.

While experimenting with his mind and memories in Lilly's tanks, Feynman also met Baba Ram Das, formerly Professor Richard Alpert of Harvard, friend of Timothy Leary and author of Be Here Now. Das instructed Feynman in how to achieve out of body experiences, which Feynman accomplished while in the tank.

Feynman found that pot helped him to achieve the hallucinatory state he was seeking. "Ordinarily it would take me about fifteen minutes to get a hallucination going," wrote Feynman, "but on a few occasions, when I smoked some marijuana beforehand, it came very quickly."

Feynman also tried LSD under these circumstances, but in his biography Genius by James Gleick, Feynman is described as being "embarrassed" by his LSD experiences. Feynman also received some criticism from his colleagues for his admission. In an essay called To Smoke Or Not To Smoke, Dr Lester Grinspoon wrote that "Feynman, by courageously acknowledging his ongoing use of marijuana, won the respect and appreciation of many and the enmity of others."


Andrew Weil is possibly the world's best-known naturopath. He is a Harvard Medical School graduate, also has a Harvard AB degree in biology, and is an internationally recognized expert on medicinal herbs, mind-body interactions, and alternative medicine. Dr Weil graced the cover of Time magazine in 1998, and is the author of eight books, including From Chocolate to Morphine, and the national bestseller Spontaneous Healing.

Weil is open about his past and present use of illegal substances, claiming "I think I've tried about every drug in Chocolate to Morphine." He is equally open with his views on ending the drug war and the benefits of many banned plants. Weil claims that there's an innate need for humans to alter consciousness, and that there is no such thing as good drugs and bad drugs, merely that some individuals have good or bad relationships with these substances.

Yet despite this, Weil's personal history with the drug culture is less well-known. Weil studied under Dr Timothy Leary at Harvard, and also worked with Dr Lester Grinspoon on marijuana research in the late 1960's.

Early in his career Weil wrote for High Times magazine, including articles like A gourmet coca taster's tour of Peru: Stalking an ancient herbal high.

Weil's first book was The Natural Mind, published in 1971. In it, he writes about the advantages of "stoned thinking" in understanding health and diagnosing illnesses.

Weil has even been honored with having a psychedelic mushroom named in his honor: Psilocybe weilii was discovered and named in 1995.



Sigmund Freud, medical doctor, psychologist and father of psychoanalysis, is generally recognized as one of the most influential and authoritative thinkers of the 20th century.

In the early 1880's the cocaine alkaloid was first extracted from coca leaves and some studies were beginning into its medical use. Freud was intrigued by the drug and was among the first to study and use it. "I take very small doses of it regularly and against depression and against indigestion, and with the most brilliant success," wrote Freud.

Freud was very enthusiastic about the benefits of cocaine. In his 1884 book Uber Coca, Freud write of the "exhilaration and lasting euphoria," produced by cocaine, "which in no way differs from the normal euphoria of the healthy person… This result is enjoyed without any of the unpleasant after-effects that follow exhilaration brought about by alcohol."

In an oft-quoted 1884 letter to his fiancé Martha Bernays, Freud wrote: "Woe to you my Princess, when I come, I will kiss you quite red and feed you till you are plump. And if you are forward, you shall see who is the stronger, a gentle little girl who doesn't eat enough or a big wild man who has cocaine in his body."



Ralph Abraham has been a Professor of Mathematics at the University of California, Santa Cruz, since 1968. He has written over a dozen books and is an editor for the International Journal of Bifurcations and Chaos. Abraham is an acknowledged leader in the emerging field of "dynamical systems theory," also called "chaos math."

In a 1991 interview with GQ magazine, Abraham explained how psychedelic insights had helped influence mathematical theories. "In the 1960s a lot of people on the frontiers of math experimented with psychedelic substances. There was a brief and extremely creative kiss between the community of hippies and top mathematicians. I know this because I was a purveyor of psychedelics to the mathematical community."

"To be creative in mathematics," continued Abraham, "you have to start from a point of total oblivion. Basically, math is revealed in a totally unconscious process in which one is completely ignorant of the social climate. And mathematical advance has always been the motor behind the advancement of consciousness."



Timothy Leary is quite possibly the most famous stoned scientist of our time, Timothy Leary was a highly respected researcher and psychology professor before he became interested in LSD and other psychedelic substances. Although Leary's complete biography is too long to fully recount here, his early academic accomplishments are worthy of note.

Leary began his career in 1954 as a research psychologist at the Kaiser Foundation in Oakland. While there he published a great many papers, wrote an acclaimed psychology textbook, and developed a standard personality test used by prison officials to help classify prisoners according to their potential escape profile.

(When Leary himself was convicted many years later, prison officials unwittingly gave him the standard "Leary Test." Leary was able to give answers which showed him to be a low flight risk, and that got him into a minimum security facility. He soon escaped.)

While at the Kaiser Foundation, Leary popularized his theories on existential transaction – the idea that the relationship between therapist and patient be changed to a more egalitarian exchange. He was soon appointed to Harvard University, where for years already students had been used as test subjects for the CIA's secret LSD experiments. Yet more years would pass before Leary himself first experienced the mind-expanding drug with which he would be forever associated.

In 1957, Leary was among the millions who read the 17-page article in Life magazine, where R Gordon Wasson discussed his experiences with psilocybe mushrooms. Like many others, Leary was inspired to travel to Mexico to sample the mushrooms for himself, and he returned to Harvard excited about his plans to research the active compound, psilocybin. Leary began working with Richard Alpert (who would later change his name to Baba Ram Dass) and together they published a variety of research papers.

The Harvard establishment became alarmed with Leary's research, which often took place in Leary's home and had researchers taking the drug with their subjects. But Leary persisted in his unorthodox techniques.

Leary was first introduced to LSD in the early sixties, and was very impressed with its effects. He shifted the focus of his research to LSD, but came under increasing fire from his fellow Harvard academics. Also, many of Leary's colleagues had CIA connections, and the CIA wanted to keep their LSD research programs secret. They didn't like that Leary was conducting similar research out in the open.

By 1963, Leary's formal academic career was over, as both he and Alpert were fired from Harvard, the first time that Harvard faculty had been dismissed in the 20th century. Leary went on to lead an extraordinary life, including time spent as a convict, a fugitive, a lecturer, publicly debating Gordon Liddy, as well as writing dozens of books with his ideas and research on psychedelic drugs, virtual reality, neurological circuitry, evolution, and other topics.

These eight scientists are merely a representative sample of the many brilliant individuals who have been inspired and creatively challenged by the effects of potent mind-expanding substances. We'll be presenting further examples of how our modern world has been shaped by the visions of stoned geniuses in a future issue of Cannabis Culture.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:13 am

Daedalus wrote:There is in fact a huge correlation between drug abuse and many mental illnesses, but in this case you're talking about abuse pre-dating symptoms. A recent bit of work that is, I admit, still in the works pre-publishing studied a cohort of identical twins adopted separately. The target group had first-order relatives with Schizophrenia, usually a parent.

In this case the study looked at stressful environment's impact on the likliehood of developing Schizophrenia. Two interesting points are:

1.) Take a scan of both kid's brains and they show the same suspicious markers that indicate a risk of developing Schizophrenia.

2.) Those in a "healthy" environment had the same rate of developing Schizophrenia as the background population with their risk factors. The group in a much more stressful environment had greatly elevated (~30% higher) risk of Schizophrenia.

What this suggests (and it is uncertain) is that Schizophrenia at least is subject to environmental factors that can play some kind of epigenetic role. This correlation then, supports the notion established for decades that stress is not the only risk factor for someone "at-risk" moving out the "latent/possible" category into a full-fledged illness.

It's tough to study, and it's tough to study a history of drug abuse pre-dating symptoms for any mental illness after the fact, no question there. It will be some time before it's more than correlation, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't take notice. The reality is that the best work done so far indicates that for many mental illnesses, especially delusional disorders, psychedelic/hallucinogenic drug use increases the chances of at-risk groups to develop their illness.

You're welcome to reject that, but you might want to actually explore the research before you do.
This post was great, I had not thought about looking into studies about twins and predetermined mental health issues and the correlates with drug use and causation on an epigenetic basis. Which I should have since epigenetics is a favorite subject of mine. KennyC has still not replied to my PM about epigenetics, I think it annoyed his world view a bit :D

Is the study on-going? What is the sample size?
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