The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:15 pm

Eric D R wrote:...
You think that only because I play devil's advocate all the time. I try to pull apart people's arguments and look for holes in them. If this were a new age forum, I'd be looking for holes in their woo arguments and sounding more like a physicalist rationalist skeptic. But since this is a skeptic forum, I'm doing the opposite. That's why you think I'm arguing for magical woo. Because you see me arguing against skeptical assumptions or pointing out other possible ways of looking at things. But if you look closely, you will see that I don't actually make objective claims.

No, I think that because that is what you do. Constantly. And no you don't try to skeptically rationally or scientifically attempt to investigate anything or to 'pull arguments' apart. You refuse to accept perfectly rational explanations for the things you argue for when they are the most likely reason based on Occam's Razor or even direct scientific evidence.

One does not continue to argue against a reasonable rational scientific explanation by invoking woo or additional 'possibilities.' One who is seeking the truthful explanation will evaluate that reasonable explanation and say, yeah that make sense, or provide rational scientific evidence as to why it doesn't. YOU DON"T DO THAT ERIC. You just keep arguing the woo and pushing the more irrational alternatives.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:17 pm

Eric D R wrote:...

Now, I will admit that I would like survival of consciousness or the soul to be true (and i think a number of others on this forum have said the same), but I can't make myself believe it or try to claim that it is.

I'm gonna hang on to that quote. :D

How many years have I been accusing you of exactly that and now, now you finally admit it.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:26 pm

Daedalus wrote:You're not making claims Eric, just a lot of insinuations that stand in for claims. I suppose it's possible that you're not trying to do that, and that really you're being terribly misunderstood, which is what you're saying I think.

Still, my impression, which I trust, is that you actively avoid making claims while trying to imply what you believe indirectly.

If I'm wrong, if Kenny is wrong, you could simply state clearly what you DO believe, and put this all to rest.
Thank you, Daedalus, for being willing to consider what I'm trying to say about myself. These "insinuations that stand in for claims" you may be referring to when I state what some people believe about DMT elves or other things? Or do you mean that by arguing against a skeptic's position, I am insinuating that I believe in the opposite claim?

Here's what I believe:

Not much of anything on the subject of mind, consciousness, psychadelic experiences, and related phenomena. I find it largely fascinating and mysterious (i.e. unresolved, unknown). Lately, I've been feeling more like the monist physicalist view of mind is more likely to be true, but I hold out hope that there may more to the relationship between brain and mind. After reading Schroder's book a couple of years ago about Ian Stevenson's researches, I found myself thinking it quite possible that reincarnation of some sort does indeed occur, but I've become more doubtful of it since then, but I still think something interesting may be going on there. Generally speaking, I think faith in some kind of spirituality is very helpful to people psychologically (studies seem to say so too), and I wish I could make myself believe something I don't know for sure, but I find that I can't.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:28 pm

Eric D R wrote: Now, I will admit that I would like survival of consciousness or the soul to be true (and i think a number of others on this forum have said the same), but I can't make myself believe it or try to claim that it is.
First video in a rather epic playlist: " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"And every one of us when we go into the psychedelic state, this is what we should be looking for. It's not for your elucidation, it's not part of your self-directed psychotherapy. You are an explorer, and you represent our species, and the greatest good you can do, is to bring back a new idea, because our world is in danger by the absence of good ideas. Our world is in crisis because of the absence of consciousness. And so to whatever degree any one of us, can bring back a small piece of the picture and contribute it to the building to the new paradigm, then we participate in the redemption of the human spirit, and that after all it what it's really all about."

Not sure what I make of it on the face of it, but I agree with the larger sentiment behind the words.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:29 pm

It's called hope Eric. It's a biological condition, it's required by evolution, otherwise we wouldn't be here. It has nothing to do with religion, dualistic consciousness, or souls other than it is likely the source for those delusions built upon it.

And thank you for stating that straight out.
Last edited by kennyc on Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Kaepora Gaebora » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:31 pm

Here is something relevant you may want to watch, Eric and zeuzz. (And anyone else for that matter.) It applies for making a good argument.

[ytube][/ytube]

But now I'm reading that you're not making claims just insinuation, skirting around your burden of proof because you don't actually believe it or claim it.

Why do you talk about this stuff, then?

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:32 pm

kennyc wrote:No, I think that because that is what you do. Constantly. And no you don't try to skeptically rationally or scientifically attempt to investigate anything or to 'pull arguments' apart. You refuse to accept perfectly rational explanations for the things you argue for when they are the most likely reason based on Occam's Razor or even direct scientific evidence.

One does not continue to argue against a reasonable rational scientific explanation by invoking woo or additional 'possibilities.' One who is seeking the truthful explanation will evaluate that reasonable explanation and say, yeah that make sense, or provide rational scientific evidence as to why it doesn't. YOU DON"T DO THAT ERIC. You just keep arguing the woo and pushing the more irrational alternatives.
I get the distinct impression from you Kenny that you are awfully good at moaning about other peoples opinions and perspectives without ever really revealing your own. Why is this?
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:34 pm

Kaepora Gaebora wrote:Here is something relevant you may want to watch, Eric and zeuzz. (And anyone else for that matter.) It applies for making a good argument.

[ytube][/ytube]

But now I'm reading that you're not making claims just insinuation, skirting around your burden of proof because you don't actually believe it or claim it.

Why do you talk about this stuff, then?
Awesome video.

What have I said that requires the burden of proof espoused in the video? Please be as exact as possible, I thrive when pushed into a corner about specifics :D Maybe my posts have been too general so far.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:35 pm

Eric D R wrote:
Daedalus wrote:You're not making claims Eric, just a lot of insinuations that stand in for claims. I suppose it's possible that you're not trying to do that, and that really you're being terribly misunderstood, which is what you're saying I think.

Still, my impression, which I trust, is that you actively avoid making claims while trying to imply what you believe indirectly.

If I'm wrong, if Kenny is wrong, you could simply state clearly what you DO believe, and put this all to rest.
Thank you, Daedalus, for being willing to consider what I'm trying to say about myself. These "insinuations that stand in for claims" you may be referring to when I state what some people believe about DMT elves or other things? Or do you mean that by arguing against a skeptic's position, I am insinuating that I believe in the opposite claim?

Here's what I believe:

Not much of anything on the subject of mind, consciousness, psychadelic experiences, and related phenomena. I find it largely fascinating and mysterious (i.e. unresolved, unknown). Lately, I've been feeling more like the monist physicalist view of mind is more likely to be true, but I hold out hope that there may more to the relationship between brain and mind. After reading Schroder's book a couple of years ago about Ian Stevenson's researches, I found myself thinking it quite possible that reincarnation of some sort does indeed occur, but I've become more doubtful of it since then, but I still think something interesting may be going on there. Generally speaking, I think faith in some kind of spirituality is very helpful to people psychologically (studies seem to say so too), and I wish I could make myself believe something I don't know for sure, but I find that I can't.
I can respect this; thanks for being clear Eric.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:39 pm

kennyc wrote:
Eric D R wrote:...

Now, I will admit that I would like survival of consciousness or the soul to be true (and i think a number of others on this forum have said the same), but I can't make myself believe it or try to claim that it is.

I'm gonna hang on to that quote. :D

How many years have I been accusing you of exactly that and now, now you finally admit it.
Well, in the case of the threads about subjective experience or the "hard problem", you accused me of wishing magic were true, but my argument was a philosophical one not a scientific one. You and I have to just recognize that we have a fundamental disagreement about the ontology of that matter. As for any other topic discussed on this board, if you'd "accused" me of wishing it were true and I really did wish it were, I don't see any reason why I wouldn't have said you were right. I'm not out to be dishonest about my thoughts or opinions.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Shen1986 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:25 am

Eric D R wrote:
Magic Mushrooms Expand the Mind By Dampening Brain Activity

A new brain-scan study helps explain how psilocybin works — and why it holds promise as a treatment for depression, addiction and post-traumatic stress.

Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2012/01/24/m" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... z2ZMVW1l00
Thank you very much for that link, zeuzzz! I didnt notice anyone else commenting on it or the other interesting links you sent, but i havent read thru all the pages of this thread yet. Nonetheless, the links touch on things that are much more worthwhile to discuss in this forum than the petty personal squabbling i've seen in this thread so far. I am sorry you have encountered so much prejudice and irrational reaction to your original post, and i invite you to look at the thread i just started on the topic of DMT in the "brain mind and consciousness" topic under General Subjects.

As for the above link to the Time article, it seems some psychadelic trips can help give a person an expanded psychological perspective the way physical trips can give us a more expanded view of the physical world around us.
This study is a perfect example how the brain creates hallucinations to contrary belief of believers in something paranormal. Even Dr. Steven Novella has written about it:

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/inde ... lism-frey/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here he even writes that brain activity can decrease and create more profound hallucinations:
He gives as an example the intense mystical experiences caused by some drugs or during out of body experiences. The latter is now known to be caused by inhibiting brain regions, not enhancing them. Feeling inside ones body is an active neurological process. Inhibiting that process and decreasing overall brain activity can result in an OOB experience. Likewise the turning off of reality testing and rational parts of the brain will cause an intense mystical experience by decreasing overall brain function.
Taken from: http://theness.com/neurologicablog/inde ... -responds/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also the study:
Further, this is preliminary research and neuroscientists are still debating how to interpret it, so it is hardly a solid premise with which to discard the materialist paradigm. Previous PET studies showed that psilocybin increased activity in certain brain regions. Now an fMRI study shows that activity is decreased. This probably has something to do with the fact that PET scan and fMRI are measuring different things and inferring brain activity from that – so perhaps some aspects of metabolism are decreased and others increased. We need further research to sort this out. But either way – none of it breaks the predictions of materialism, as Kastrup claims.
Taken from: http://theness.com/neurologicablog/inde ... -responds/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also there is another thread where this was discussed:
How do we know what is enough activity for a hyper-real experience? Do we base our assumption on a common sense feeling that the more real / intense an experience is, the more active the brain should be? Sounds reasonable - at least for ordinary circumstances. But maybe we're out of the ordinary with NDEs and should compare to other ordinary states. There are studies (eg Chang & Lo, 2005) showing that intense spiritual experiences of longtime meditators are accompanied by almost a flat line. Also high gamma activity is reported (Lutz, 2006). So that resembles quite the pattern of the rats.
Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... udy-4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

People should read more about neuroscience and then think about conclusions about a soul because several believers like Sam Parnia and others don't know nothing about neuroscience and then claim foolish conclusions.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:04 pm

Shen1986 wrote: People should read more about neuroscience and then think about conclusions about a soul because several believers like Sam Parnia and others don't know nothing about neuroscience and then claim foolish conclusions.
Sam Parnia is an awesome scientist, I have been a fan for years. Your above post has confused me, what is you point? That dampening of brain region on magic mushrooms ... proves what exactly?
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Shen1986 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:33 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
Shen1986 wrote: People should read more about neuroscience and then think about conclusions about a soul because several believers like Sam Parnia and others don't know nothing about neuroscience and then claim foolish conclusions.
Sam Parnia is an awesome scientist, I have been a fan for years. Your above post has confused me, what is you point? That dampening of brain region on magic mushrooms ... proves what exactly?
As for Sam Parnia. He is woo and knows little:

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=19749" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=21200" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sam Parnia is playing with the word death too often confusing people and after he was told about his errors he then changed them. For me Parnia is nothing more just milking money from AWARE and nothing more. Just look on the links - he has done more studies and nothing came out of it.

What it proves? That its all hallucinations nothing more. That even when the brain goes almost flat it produces hallucinations and not releasing your soul from your body.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:36 pm

Sam Parnia is an ignorant dolt on the same scale as Chopra and Sheldrake and others of the same ilk.

These idiots are all doing damage to legitimate scientific research.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:37 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
Shen1986 wrote: People should read more about neuroscience and then think about conclusions about a soul because several believers like Sam Parnia and others don't know nothing about neuroscience and then claim foolish conclusions.
Sam Parnia is an awesome scientist, I have been a fan for years. Your above post has confused me, what is you point? That dampening of brain region on magic mushrooms ... proves what exactly?
Parnia is a fool and a pseudoscience peddler.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Shen1986 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:41 pm

kennyc wrote:Sam Parnia is an ignorant dolt on the same scale as Chopra and Sheldrake and others of the same ilk.

These idiots are all doing damage to legitimate scientific research.
Cannot agree more. Even when I hear something new from this guy it makes me sick. He behaves like he is changing the world but in reality he is changing his valet, nothing more. First AWARE should have taken 3 years now we have 5 years and his claims are bigger and bigger. If Parnia has such a great discovery at his hands he should already publish it and have a Nobel Prize in his pocket, James Randis money also but no. He is just selling woo to the flock of believers.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:37 am

You guys sound so angered by Parnia and call him all sorts of things, but in the posts I've seen from Shen, I didn't notice much of any claims about paranormality from Parnia. He even was careful to say that consciousness may survive into the early stages of death, but not to say that it may survive beyond that point. So what is it about him that angers you so?

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Shen1986 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:40 am

Eric D R wrote:You guys sound so angered by Parnia and call him all sorts of things, but in the posts I've seen from Shen, I didn't notice much of any claims about paranormality from Parnia. He even was careful to say that consciousness may survive into the early stages of death, but not to say that it may survive beyond that point. So what is it about him that angers you so?
This:
“We have millions and millions of people now who have essentially gone to the other side, beyond the threshold of death, they’ve entered what would have been considered the afterlife period, and they’re coming back and telling us what they experienced.” He compares it to our ability now to send men to the moon who can come back and tell us about it. We now routinely overcome death, and the people he’s studying are “like astronauts – we send them out to explore this other dimension” – they are going to the other side, and they’re able to tell us what they’ve experienced on the other side of death – “is there an afterlife and what shape does it take, and that’s a new science that’s evolving for us.”
And this:
This is what is commonly known as a Near Death Experience, though I now propose that such experiences be termed After Death Experiences because the woman had, in fact, died.
Taken from: http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=19749" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Parnia is changing his interviews first when he came out he said that NDEs are After Death experiences when he was criticized that brain cells take time to die. He changed his interview in another show that it takes time for brain cells to die which in the first interview he claimed that all people in NDEs are dead and we should NDEs call After Death Experiences. He is a pseudoscientist who even doesn't know his own field.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:19 am

What is your point Kenny? That his personal opinions from his years of studying these things respectfully in the relevant journals using sound scientific methodology to compile peoples subjective experiences are damaging to ... what exactly?

Science?
Or your own world view?
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Kaepora Gaebora » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:52 am

zeuzzz wrote:What is your point Kenny? That his personal opinions from his years of studying these things respectfully in the relevant journals using sound scientific methodology to compile peoples subjective experiences are damaging to ... what exactly?

Science?
Or your own world view?
:P
Damaging actual scientific progress by appealing to woo, wasting people's time following his pulled from thin air wacko theories, wasting people's money (and taxes if he got a grant), and not following objective, empirical methods (instead he chooses subjective experiences as evidence for these "ADE")

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Shen1986 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:30 am

zeuzzz wrote:That his personal opinions from his years of studying these things respectfully in the relevant journals using sound scientific methodology to compile peoples subjective experiences are damaging to ... what exactly?
Respected journals?? What Journals of Near-Death experiences? This is a relevant journal?? His books for believers that is a relevant journal?? IANDS is also relevant?? Don't make me laugh. IANDS was founded along with Raymond Moody therefore all is just a soul and they will never be convinced that NDEs could be just hallucinations and nothing more. Only that NDEs are a proof of a soul nothing more. IANDS is a religious organization and not a scientific one.

Scientific methodology?? What science is Parnia doing? Collecting anecdotes is science?? Collecting that someone believes in hallucination is science?? If he would be scanning the brain and doing real science like it was done by the study with the rats that showed a last energy spark in the brain when the person is dying that is science. Parnia is not doing that..

NDEs had their time to test that it is about the soul. They failed. Now NDEs should be looked at with normal empirical methods and not just woo and believers views.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:51 am

This post is from "DMT Elves", the other thread going on about this same topic right now. I'm putting it here too because it's relevant and because those who are not following that other thread may be interested:
scrmbldggs wrote:Maybe this is of interest?

HELL AND BACK


http://www.kirasalak.com/Peru.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I finished reading the whole article and had these thoughts:

1) Ayuahuasca is a purging ritual, and subjects typically vomit early in the experience. Before throwing up, the subject typically describes a frightening experience of hell or demons or negativity of some sort and then the sense of this evil energy welling up inside of them. This seems to me the creative mind's response to a physical sensation of nausea. It seems similar to how we often dream something at night that forms a story around a loud sound (sirens, thunder, gunshot) that occurs outside while we're sleeping. This particular aspect of the Ayahuasca trip is very common if not standard. But it doesn't typically happen when people smoke DMT, even tho Ayahuasca's active ingredient is also DMT. Why not? It seems to be simply because smoking DMT doesn't usually cause the subject to be nauseous and throw up.

2) As real as the hallucinations may appear to the subject, as they did to the writer of the above article ("Kira"), they have a lot of marks of being created by the imagination. She basically admits as much when she describes encountering God as a stereotypical white-bearded santa claus like figure. Similarly there was her hellish experience of bats swarming. So unless you think bats really are inherently evil...

3) At one point, Kira is shocked when Hamilton (the shaman/ tour guide) tells her to help carry the little girl out of hell after its been frozen over. How could another person present during the experience know what she is hallucinating about? He (and the other shamans) explain that they take the ayahuasca along with the subjects so that they can enter into their experiences and assist them if necessary. Well, hmmm, maybe Kira just hallucinated Hamilton putting his hand on her shoulder and saying that and he never actually said it. Or, maybe she had spoken during her trip and said something about a little girl stuck in hell, so Hamilton knew. Otherwise, it would be quite paramormal indeed if another person really knew what she was experiencing just because he also took the ayahuasca.


Here are some possibilities:

1) It's all in your head.

2) It really is a bunch of spiritual entities.

4) It's a combination of the two. It's hallucinations and also cryptic entities or forces. In other words, your brain is just trying to interpret or represent these entities/forces in the way it knows how (using memories and images from the mundane world)



Whatever the case may be, the mind's vastness and complexity is unbelievable.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:32 pm

Shen1986 wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:That his personal opinions from his years of studying these things respectfully in the relevant journals using sound scientific methodology to compile peoples subjective experiences are damaging to ... what exactly?
Respected journals?? What Journals of Near-Death experiences? This is a relevant journal?? His books for believers that is a relevant journal?? IANDS is also relevant?? Don't make me laugh. IANDS was founded along with Raymond Moody therefore all is just a soul and they will never be convinced that NDEs could be just hallucinations and nothing more. Only that NDEs are a proof of a soul nothing more. IANDS is a religious organization and not a scientific one.

Scientific methodology?? What science is Parnia doing? Collecting anecdotes is science?? Collecting that someone believes in hallucination is science?? If he would be scanning the brain and doing real science like it was done by the study with the rats that showed a last energy spark in the brain when the person is dying that is science. Parnia is not doing that..

NDEs had their time to test that it is about the soul. They failed. Now NDEs should be looked at with normal empirical methods and not just woo and believers views.
Yawn. While Mr Parniers personal subjective views may be pretty 'out there' they do not enter his research papers. I don't think that "New England Journal of Medicine" "Medical Hypotheses" are journals to be laughed at.

All the best science nowadays includes not only the materialistic reductionist train of thought on every phenomenon but also includes consciousness and subjective experiences. I may not be remembering this properly but I think it was Sam who was the first ever person to actually rigorously study peoples accounts of near death experiences and scientifically compile them into some form of usable data.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:43 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
Shen1986 wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:That his personal opinions from his years of studying these things respectfully in the relevant journals using sound scientific methodology to compile peoples subjective experiences are damaging to ... what exactly?
Respected journals?? What Journals of Near-Death experiences? This is a relevant journal?? His books for believers that is a relevant journal?? IANDS is also relevant?? Don't make me laugh. IANDS was founded along with Raymond Moody therefore all is just a soul and they will never be convinced that NDEs could be just hallucinations and nothing more. Only that NDEs are a proof of a soul nothing more. IANDS is a religious organization and not a scientific one.

Scientific methodology?? What science is Parnia doing? Collecting anecdotes is science?? Collecting that someone believes in hallucination is science?? If he would be scanning the brain and doing real science like it was done by the study with the rats that showed a last energy spark in the brain when the person is dying that is science. Parnia is not doing that..

NDEs had their time to test that it is about the soul. They failed. Now NDEs should be looked at with normal empirical methods and not just woo and believers views.
Yawn. While Mr Parniers personal subjective views may be pretty 'out there' they do not enter his research papers. I don't think that "New England Journal of Medicine" "Medical Hypotheses" are journals to be laughed at.

All the best science nowadays includes not only the materialistic reductionist train of thought on every phenomenon but also includes consciousness and subjective experiences. I may not be remembering this properly but I think it was Sam who was the first ever person to actually rigorously study peoples accounts of near death experiences and scientifically compile them into some form of usable data.
Of course, those are not studies published in those journals, but articles written in them for the consideration of their readers.

Aka... a load of {!#%@} from Parnia.

If he could actually yield, "usable data", he'd be publishing, not editorializing.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:45 pm

Daedalus wrote:...

Of course, those are not studies published in those journals, but articles written in them for the consideration of their readers.

Aka... a load of {!#%@} from Parnia.

If he could actually yield, "usable data", he'd be publishing, not editorializing.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:42 pm

SCIENCE! [video] Finally starting to be allowed into this domain, despite the ridiculous laws in the area. The sad reality is that these substances are illegal because they help people and make people difficult to control with linear value systems and cultural models composed of dis-empowering icons and thought systems. The original studies in the 1960s were showing truly remarkable results before their banning.

Academic references instead of video available on request if needed.

Thank god for Dave Nichols, Purdue labs, Griffiths and others that have done the groundbreaking research in recent years.

Maybe in the next few years the scientific community at large will start to change their opinion of these things as dangerous mind altering chemicals+ *lol* and actually look at the evidence shown in the literature.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:23 pm

Daedalus wrote: If he could actually yield, "usable data", he'd be publishing, not editorializing.
Good point, maybe I am memorizing wrong, but as far as I can remember he was quoted in a BBC documentary as being the person to have gathered the most accurate database of NDE accounts. Where might he have published them? Would make fascinating reading.

EDIT: It was this documentary, which was very interesting in all. Susan Blackman gives the rational skeptical overview to balance out the subjectives, since subjective experiences seem to annoy the materialists here :P
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:47 pm

By the way, just to get back to the OP for a second, I'm 100% sure that Mckenna influenced my trip by priming me about the 'elves/sprites' and visible language/song. I have just listened to an account of one of his DMT trips and mine and his seemed ridiculously congruent, I must have listened to it years ago and his explanation effected the direction of my trip. Either that or this is a generalized trait of what people experience on DMT ...
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:22 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote: If he could actually yield, "usable data", he'd be publishing, not editorializing.
Good point, maybe I am memorizing wrong, but as far as I can remember he was quoted in a BBC documentary as being the person to have gathered the most accurate database of NDE accounts. Where might he have published them? Would make fascinating reading.

EDIT: It was this documentary, which was very interesting in all. Susan Blackman gives the rational skeptical overview to balance out the subjectives, since subjective experiences seem to annoy the materialists here :P
If his work could actually yield, "useable data," he'd be publishing, not babbling on BBC documentaries.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:47 am

zeuzzz wrote:By the way, just to get back to the OP for a second, I'm 100% sure that Mckenna influenced my trip by priming me about the 'elves/sprites' and visible language/song. I have just listened to an account of one of his DMT trips and mine and his seemed ridiculously congruent, I must have listened to it years ago and his explanation effected the direction of my trip. Either that or this is a generalized trait of what people experience on DMT ...
Yes, I had noted how much your OP description of your experience had coincided with McKenna's description of "machine elves" just from what I saw quoted from him about it in wikipedia. Other people's DMT experiences I've read also have a lot of parallels, but yours was even closer to McKenna's description than they were.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:45 pm

[ytube][/ytube]

Pretty comprehensive documentary featuring many very respected scientists all about DMT. And a few woo peddlers, but that can't be helped.

Still waiting for a reply to my above comment btw.
zeuzzz wrote:Awesome video.

What have I said that requires the burden of proof espoused in the video? Please be as exact as possible, I thrive when pushed into a corner about specifics :D Maybe my posts have been too general so far.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:58 pm

Eric D R wrote:Yes, I had noted how much your OP description of your experience had coincided with McKenna's description of "machine elves" just from what I saw quoted from him about it in wikipedia. Other people's DMT experiences I've read also have a lot of parallels, but yours was even closer to McKenna's description than they were.
Trips can definitely be primed, to a scary degree too.

A couple of cases in point: I have done mushrooms a few times in my life, and always enjoyed them. Then I heard Mckenna speaking about how you can ask a question mentally during a breakthrough dose and you will get an answer, like 'the message' he apparently got during one of his most powerful mushroom trips about 30 years ago.

So after this I tried it and it worked, was like conversing with a disembodied intelligence that was playing with me. It seemed kind of disinterested in me though until I insisted then it turned more playful. The main message I left with after asking a fair few questions is that no one knows jack {!#%@} about what is going on and to stay curious. Where these answers or feelings come from depends on how you approach it, we could go into Jungian subconsciousness, materialistic neurological chaos, Freudian ideologies, collective subconscious, etc, no one has the truth on these things really.

I don't know whether the only reason this happens to me when I use mushrooms (which is rarely, 1-2 times a year) quite reliably is because he said it and that's the only reason, or if it is in fact an intrinsic property of the mushroom experience. As per usual (in this area) what we need is large scale clinical trials to see what patterns (if any) emerge from peoples subjective experiences. But of course such studies have always been banned, until very recently.

Can't wait to see how they pan out to be honest. Dr. Robin Carhart Harris is at the forefront of UK research with David Nutt et al, recently uploaded a quite informative video on his studies findings, as he is more than well aware there is a titanic gap between peoples perception of these substances and the reality of them, in the name of honest non political education.

Also I've been in groups of people trying DMT where someone was talking about how it's the endogenous chemical that gets released when you die, basically freaking everyone out, and nearly everyone then hated the experience due to this priming effect. In another group with a totally different more relaxed social dynamics everyone loved the experience, and one person even quit their job the next day after having an epiphany about their life and where they were going and is generally in a much better place now. Think the trip kinda scared him into making changes he would normally have put off.

People with a lot of mental baggage or people who have not lead very moral lives tend to have a pretty rough time on DMT.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:47 am

No one here had any experienced with internalized voices while tipping? Or am I the only psychnaut here?

Might have to invite some psychopharmacoligists I know here so I don't feel so much like a fish out of water.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:26 am

Never went "tipping" (you might have meant "tripping"?).

But still am curious about why you inquired about UDV centers at JREF. You, of all people, should have known that they are not open to the public. Only members can participate in their Ayahuasca rituals. You'd have to join that so-called religion... and getting close to that is by invitation of an active member only.

You really come off as a junkie, ya know...
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:33 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Never went "tipping" (you might have meant "tripping"?).

But still am curious about why you inquired about UDV centers at JREF. You, of all people, should have known that they are not open to the public. Only members can participate in their Ayahuasca rituals. You'd have to join that so-called religion... and getting close to that is by invitation of an active member only.

You really come off as a junkie, ya know...
That's because he is a junkie.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:16 am

Define junkie.

I use psychedelics occasionally, and like to share my experiences.

That makes me much more a 'hippie' or a 'psychonaut' than a junkie.

But you can call me a junkie if you want, really doesn't change any facts.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:51 am

scrmbldggs wrote:But still am curious about why you inquired about UDV centers at JREF. You, of all people, should have known that they are not open to the public. Only members can participate in their Ayahuasca rituals. You'd have to join that so-called religion... and getting close to that is by invitation of an active member only.
I've been to Brazil and spent time ( a week) with the UDV there in the rainforest, in a way I am a member, though I signed no paperwork
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:34 am

Daedalus wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Never went "tipping" (you might have meant "tripping"?).

But still am curious about why you inquired about UDV centers at JREF. You, of all people, should have known that they are not open to the public. Only members can participate in their Ayahuasca rituals. You'd have to join that so-called religion... and getting close to that is by invitation of an active member only.

You really come off as a junkie, ya know...
That's because he is a junkie.
I cant believe you wrote that, Daedalus. You seemed educated enuff to know the difference between someone like Zeuzzz who does psychadelic trips to try to know more anout their subconcious self vs. a drug addict ("junkie") who abuses addictive drugs for the purpose of escaping from pain and maintaining a physiological addictive dependence.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:04 am

Eric, you might have missed this discussion and admission by zeuzzz:
That is why I asked for the person who has used a UDV center to PM me instead of use the thread. Getting the DMT was not the goal, I have DMT nearly all the time,...
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 80#p341651" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:09 pm

Eric D R wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Never went "tipping" (you might have meant "tripping"?).

But still am curious about why you inquired about UDV centers at JREF. You, of all people, should have known that they are not open to the public. Only members can participate in their Ayahuasca rituals. You'd have to join that so-called religion... and getting close to that is by invitation of an active member only.

You really come off as a junkie, ya know...
That's because he is a junkie.
I cant believe you wrote that, Daedalus. You seemed educated enuff to know the difference between someone like Zeuzzz who does psychadelic trips to try to know more anout their subconcious self vs. a drug addict ("junkie") who abuses addictive drugs for the purpose of escaping from pain and maintaining a physiological addictive dependence.
What Scrambles posted... I DO know the difference... Zeuzzz is a junkie.
"Propaganda is a monologue which seeks not a response, but an echo." (W.H. Auden)
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