The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:05 pm

Gord wrote:
kennyc wrote:I can't see any of those huge images....I feel I'm missing something.....perhaps the subjective experience of the color red......


:cry:
No, no, count yourself lucky.

http://onlyhdwallpapers.com/wallpaper/b ... 336237.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://onlyhdwallpapers.com/wallpaper/s ... 208688.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GRRRRRRR!!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:03 am

Daedalus wrote:
Eric D R wrote:What I was trying to say was that a psychadelic trip or DMT trip has the potential to show you the bigger picture of your own psyche, to expand your field of vision of what you can experience mentally. This is analogous to how taking a trip to a neighboring city or wilderness area expands your field of vision and awareness of your physical surroundings. That's what I'm trying to say. And I am basing this on evidence. Did you read the article that I reposted the link to? Here it is again:

http://healthland.time.com/2012/01/24/m" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think that it's a reach to assume that perspective gained on drugs is a real view of, "your own psyche" and not just a bit of delusion you happen to believe because it feels so real.

There is no evidence that the "insight" gained is real or valuable... just a lot of anecdotal testimony from people who have subjected their brains to drugs.
Okay, that's fine, but it's still not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the philosophical or spiritual revelations that one feels he has come to from tripping. Those could just as well be delusions. I'm talking about the sensory material and images (visual or otherwise) that your brain filters out normally, which become available for you to experience under the influence of shrooms (as per the linked article) or DMT or other psychoactive molecules that may inhibit or block the filtering functions in the brain.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Kaepora Gaebora » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:31 am

Eric D R wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
Eric D R wrote:What I was trying to say was that a psychadelic trip or DMT trip has the potential to show you the bigger picture of your own psyche, to expand your field of vision of what you can experience mentally. This is analogous to how taking a trip to a neighboring city or wilderness area expands your field of vision and awareness of your physical surroundings. That's what I'm trying to say. And I am basing this on evidence. Did you read the article that I reposted the link to? Here it is again:

http://healthland.time.com/2012/01/24/m" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think that it's a reach to assume that perspective gained on drugs is a real view of, "your own psyche" and not just a bit of delusion you happen to believe because it feels so real.

There is no evidence that the "insight" gained is real or valuable... just a lot of anecdotal testimony from people who have subjected their brains to drugs.
Okay, that's fine, but it's still not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the philosophical or spiritual revelations that one feels he has come to from tripping. Those could just as well be delusions. I'm talking about the sensory material and images (visual or otherwise) that your brain filters out normally, which become available for you to experience under the influence of shrooms (as per the linked article) or DMT or other psychoactive molecules that may inhibit or block the filtering functions in the brain.
The sensory images could also very well be delusions. Descartes went over the fact that our senses frequently fool ourselves about reality. Take for example this optical illusion:



Your brain detects movement, but there is no movement at all. You can't be certain that these visions from a drug trip are real at all simply because you are high.

(And there is the deal with if reality is real, but that's another subject entirely)

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:58 am

"For some reason, which I am sure has complex roots, many mainstream psychiatrists and government officials prefer to discount the opinions of those who are truly qualified. Their position may have been greatly influenced by the proselytizing of the Tim Leary's of the world, and the unacceptable antics of many young people abusing psychedelic substances. There may also be an aversion to persons truly enjoying themselves, which seems to be frowned upon by many puritanical Americans. But this does not excuse them from objectively examining and appraising all the data, nor from recognizing the appropriate credentials of those qualified to evaluate the use of psychedelics."

Source: http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... galization" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:04 am

Kaepora Gaebora wrote: The sensory images could also very well be delusions. Descartes went over the fact that our senses frequently fool ourselves about reality. Take for example this optical illusion:



Your brain detects movement, but there is no movement at all. You can't be certain that these visions from a drug trip are real at all simply because you are high.

(And there is the deal with if reality is real, but that's another subject entirely)
I've just managed to stare long enough at this to stop it moving! Took about 10 minutes, and now I feel rather ill ....
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:35 am

Eric D R wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
Eric D R wrote:What I was trying to say was that a psychadelic trip or DMT trip has the potential to show you the bigger picture of your own psyche, to expand your field of vision of what you can experience mentally. This is analogous to how taking a trip to a neighboring city or wilderness area expands your field of vision and awareness of your physical surroundings. That's what I'm trying to say. And I am basing this on evidence. Did you read the article that I reposted the link to? Here it is again:

http://healthland.time.com/2012/01/24/m" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think that it's a reach to assume that perspective gained on drugs is a real view of, "your own psyche" and not just a bit of delusion you happen to believe because it feels so real.

There is no evidence that the "insight" gained is real or valuable... just a lot of anecdotal testimony from people who have subjected their brains to drugs.
Okay, that's fine, but it's still not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the philosophical or spiritual revelations that one feels he has come to from tripping. Those could just as well be delusions. I'm talking about the sensory material and images (visual or otherwise) that your brain filters out normally, which become available for you to experience under the influence of shrooms (as per the linked article) or DMT or other psychoactive molecules that may inhibit or block the filtering functions in the brain.
You're assuming that the brain is FILTERING sensory input that is suddenly becoming accessible on drugs. The opposite is true.

You're MUCH less perceptive by any objective measure on these drugs, but your brain produces endogenous images and "input".

You're not gaining new access, just mentally masturbating.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:35 pm

zeuzzz wrote: I've just managed to stare long enough at this to stop it moving! Took about 10 minutes, and now I feel rather ill ....
Worked out how to do it on the natch, you just have to choose a pixel sized part of the picture and stare so intently at that without your eyes moving at all the peripheral illusions vanish.

I also noticed a strange effect with peripheral vision and focusing on an exact point back at school. On a flat desk place a pen or book near you on the flat table. Then choose a very small point about 2 foot behind the object and focus on this and nothing else like your life depended on it. After about 20-30 seconds the object will completely disappear from the table in your peripheral vision. Don't even flicker your eyes to check the object, as it will instantly re-appear. As long as you keep your eyes totally focused on the point then the object right in front of you will remain completely invisible to your peripheral vision even though every other object in the room remains there.

This is surely a form of inattentional blindness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inattentional_blindness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But i've yet to see any scientific literature on this exact type of peripheral blindness, all the inattentional blindness studies are quite unrelated, and are sometimes called selective blindness too.

Watch this video where the challenge is to successfully count the passes the white team make (it's very hard) to get an idea of what it's about.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:53 am

zeuzzz wrote:
zeuzzz wrote: I've just managed to stare long enough at this to stop it moving! Took about 10 minutes, and now I feel rather ill ....
Worked out how to do it on the natch, you just have to choose a pixel sized part of the picture and stare so intently at that without your eyes moving at all the peripheral illusions vanish.
All I have to do is to unfocus. :-P
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:22 am

scrmbldggs wrote: All I have to do is to unfocus. :-P
That works too, but thats cheating :p
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:45 am

Your brain detects movement, but there is no movement at all. You can't be certain that these visions from a drug trip are real at all simply because you are high.

(And there is the deal with if reality is real, but that's another subject entirely)
That's not what I was talking about. Sorry, I just realized I made the mistake of writing "sensory" and "images". I wasn't intending to talk about what is coming in to the senses from the outside world. I meant what goes on in the brain subconsciously that the brain normally filters out from our awareness.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:51 am

You're assuming that the brain is FILTERING sensory input that is suddenly becoming accessible on drugs. The opposite is true.

You're MUCH less perceptive by any objective measure on these drugs, but your brain produces endogenous images and "input".

You're not gaining new access, just mentally masturbating.
I didn't mean to imply sensory input from the outside world. I was thinking about subconscious imagery. I didn't make that clear.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Kaepora Gaebora » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:59 pm

Eric D R wrote:
Your brain detects movement, but there is no movement at all. You can't be certain that these visions from a drug trip are real at all simply because you are high.

(And there is the deal with if reality is real, but that's another subject entirely)
That's not what I was talking about. Sorry, I just realized I made the mistake of writing "sensory" and "images". I wasn't intending to talk about what is coming in to the senses from the outside world. I meant what goes on in the brain subconsciously that the brain normally filters out from our awareness.
What? You're not 'filtering' anything out, your mind is creating hallucinations. They aren't real; being on DMT doesn't mean anything you see while high is real. Your senses create a false image of reality.

If those are real, then it also means that people with schizophrenia seeing things like spiders on a person's skin is real.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:14 pm

Eric D R wrote:
You're assuming that the brain is FILTERING sensory input that is suddenly becoming accessible on drugs. The opposite is true.

You're MUCH less perceptive by any objective measure on these drugs, but your brain produces endogenous images and "input".

You're not gaining new access, just mentally masturbating.
I didn't mean to imply sensory input from the outside world. I was thinking about subconscious imagery. I didn't make that clear.
It's not about real external input, or internal input... it feels real because your brain is the register for your senses and the drugs are fragging it. It feels real because you're high, and as Kaepora says, you're hallucinating.

It's sort of what hallucinations are... the FEELING of truth or reality doesn't imply a thing about an underlying reality in your psyche, or the world beyond.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:31 pm

Kaepora Gaebora wrote:
Eric D R wrote:
Your brain detects movement, but there is no movement at all. You can't be certain that these visions from a drug trip are real at all simply because you are high.

(And there is the deal with if reality is real, but that's another subject entirely)
That's not what I was talking about. Sorry, I just realized I made the mistake of writing "sensory" and "images". I wasn't intending to talk about what is coming in to the senses from the outside world. I meant what goes on in the brain subconsciously that the brain normally filters out from our awareness.
What? You're not 'filtering' anything out, your mind is creating hallucinations. They aren't real; being on DMT doesn't mean anything you see while high is real. Your senses create a false image of reality.

If those are real, then it also means that people with schizophrenia seeing things like spiders on a person's skin is real.
Yeppers....
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:29 pm

Kaepora Gaebora wrote:
Eric D R wrote:
Your brain detects movement, but there is no movement at all. You can't be certain that these visions from a drug trip are real at all simply because you are high.

(And there is the deal with if reality is real, but that's another subject entirely)
That's not what I was talking about. Sorry, I just realized I made the mistake of writing "sensory" and "images". I wasn't intending to talk about what is coming in to the senses from the outside world. I meant what goes on in the brain subconsciously that the brain normally filters out from our awareness.
What? You're not 'filtering' anything out, your mind is creating hallucinations. They aren't real; being on DMT doesn't mean anything you see while high is real. Your senses create a false image of reality.

If those are real, then it also means that people with schizophrenia seeing things like spiders on a person's skin is real.
You and Kenny both need to get a grip on yourselves. You are arguing with a straw man. I never said that hallucinations from DMT were real.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Kaepora Gaebora » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:10 pm

Eric D R wrote:
Kaepora Gaebora wrote:
Eric D R wrote:
Your brain detects movement, but there is no movement at all. You can't be certain that these visions from a drug trip are real at all simply because you are high.

(And there is the deal with if reality is real, but that's another subject entirely)
That's not what I was talking about. Sorry, I just realized I made the mistake of writing "sensory" and "images". I wasn't intending to talk about what is coming in to the senses from the outside world. I meant what goes on in the brain subconsciously that the brain normally filters out from our awareness.
What? You're not 'filtering' anything out, your mind is creating hallucinations. They aren't real; being on DMT doesn't mean anything you see while high is real. Your senses create a false image of reality.

If those are real, then it also means that people with schizophrenia seeing things like spiders on a person's skin is real.
You and Kenny both need to get a grip on yourselves. You are arguing with a straw man. I never said that hallucinations from DMT were real.
Well, then what about your claim? You're claiming these elves are real. Or the fact that you are saying that:
I'm talking about the sensory material and images (visual or otherwise) that your brain filters out normally
Which could be chalked up to hallucinations created by the human brain on drugs.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:49 pm

Daedalus wrote: It's sort of what hallucinations are... the FEELING of truth or reality doesn't imply a thing about an underlying reality in your psyche, or the world beyond.
Ultimately it always boils down to the felt presence of direct experience. the only way to assess 'how real' something is is to ask a person how real it felt. The idea that the truth is 'out there' to be discovered is an illusion of a reductionist mindset applied to an intrinsically holistic thing; consciousness. I think Einstein said it best when he said "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

Also: “A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:54 pm

DMT experiences, and what people see on them, are as real as everyday experiences. They happen. Just like dreams happen. You don't say dreams are not real, they are a phenomenon. Just as tripping on mushrooms give rise to a real phenomenon. It all boils down to the subjective experience of the individual. As soon as someone reports a self transforming machine elf in a DMT trip it gains a sort of ontological existence, far beyond being merely an epistemological cartoon.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:01 pm

The interesting thing about substances like these that have completely different chemical structures and binding affinities is that even though they target totally disparate receptors and have totally different binding affinities for 5HT2a or other hallucinogenic receptors many of them will produce extremely similar experiences at high 'breakthough' dosages. Recurring themes are a feeling of unity with the surrounding world and each other, a breakdown of the ego and a merging of ones consciousness with the surrounding matter.

Unfortunately due to ridiculous laws over the last forty years and mind control exercise called the 'war on drugs' research into the statistical significance and frequency of these types of experiences has been practically stopped dead in it's tracks, it's only recently that research has picked up from where it left off in the late 60's.

The sad history of psychedelic science (Graham Hancock + Terence Mckenna)
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Kaepora Gaebora » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:29 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote: It's sort of what hallucinations are... the FEELING of truth or reality doesn't imply a thing about an underlying reality in your psyche, or the world beyond.
Ultimately it always boils down to the felt presence of direct experience. the only way to assess 'how real' something is is to ask a person how real it felt.
Nope. To determine something is objectively real, there must be empirically measureable evidence.

Daedalus is right. Feelings mean squat when it comes to determining reality.

And who knows, maybe we're wired up to the Matrix and that is deluding our senses. :afdb:

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:32 pm

Flying over landscapes like this you could never have possibly even have imagined before is something you never forget:

Image
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:38 pm

Kaepora Gaebora wrote: Nope. To determine something is objectively real, there must be empirically measureable evidence.

Daedalus is right. Feelings mean squat when it comes to determining reality.

And who knows, maybe we're wired up to the Matrix and that is deluding our senses. :afdb:
You don't feel chemistry, or feel physics, these are just facts of the world garnered through study. We are talking about consciousness and reality here, this is about theories of ontology. The external world is not reality, it's half of the picture. The engine that receives the other half rests somewhere behind your eyelids, but this place has no real spacial location. Christ it's hard to explain in words, basically there is a transcendental reality beyond language and physical reality, it's just hard as hell to talk about! For obvious tautological reasons.

The only way to have a clue what i'm talking about is to try the experience. Or at least study the art or experiences to get an idea of what these CEVs all diverge towards generally.

EDIT: aha, cool, knew I had slightly regurgitated the above phrase:

Image
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:53 pm

Eric D R wrote:
Kaepora Gaebora wrote:
Eric D R wrote:
Your brain detects movement, but there is no movement at all. You can't be certain that these visions from a drug trip are real at all simply because you are high.

(And there is the deal with if reality is real, but that's another subject entirely)
That's not what I was talking about. Sorry, I just realized I made the mistake of writing "sensory" and "images". I wasn't intending to talk about what is coming in to the senses from the outside world. I meant what goes on in the brain subconsciously that the brain normally filters out from our awareness.
What? You're not 'filtering' anything out, your mind is creating hallucinations. They aren't real; being on DMT doesn't mean anything you see while high is real. Your senses create a false image of reality.

If those are real, then it also means that people with schizophrenia seeing things like spiders on a person's skin is real.
You and Kenny both need to get a grip on yourselves. You are arguing with a straw man. I never said that hallucinations from DMT were real.
Then wtf ARE you saying? WTF is the purpose of your DMT ELVES thread?

If anyone needs to get a grip it's you (the zzzz guy is already too far gone).
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:56 pm

Kaepora Gaebora wrote:
Eric D R wrote:
Kaepora Gaebora wrote:
Eric D R wrote:
Your brain detects movement, but there is no movement at all. You can't be certain that these visions from a drug trip are real at all simply because you are high.

(And there is the deal with if reality is real, but that's another subject entirely)
That's not what I was talking about. Sorry, I just realized I made the mistake of writing "sensory" and "images". I wasn't intending to talk about what is coming in to the senses from the outside world. I meant what goes on in the brain subconsciously that the brain normally filters out from our awareness.
What? You're not 'filtering' anything out, your mind is creating hallucinations. They aren't real; being on DMT doesn't mean anything you see while high is real. Your senses create a false image of reality.

If those are real, then it also means that people with schizophrenia seeing things like spiders on a person's skin is real.
You and Kenny both need to get a grip on yourselves. You are arguing with a straw man. I never said that hallucinations from DMT were real.
Well, then what about your claim? You're claiming these elves are real. Or the fact that you are saying that:
I'm talking about the sensory material and images (visual or otherwise) that your brain filters out normally
Which could be chalked up to hallucinations created by the human brain on drugs.
This! You claimed (admittedly in the other thread) that the ELVES are real and DMT provides a 'viewport' or some {!#%@} into another dimension or some such {!#%@}.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:59 pm

Where do these congruent visions come from KennyC ? In your humble opinion.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:00 pm

kennyc wrote: This! You claimed (admittedly in the other thread) that the ELVES are real and DMT provides a 'viewport' or some {!#%@} into another dimension or some such {!#%@}.
Link to the thread? Sounds awesome.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:24 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
kennyc wrote: This! You claimed (admittedly in the other thread) that the ELVES are real and DMT provides a 'viewport' or some {!#%@} into another dimension or some such {!#%@}.
Link to the thread? Sounds awesome.
Just go to the skepticforum index and look under General Subjects and then under "Brain, Mind, and Consciousness". You'll see that DMT Elves is one of the top threads there. I started it without knowing about this thread here. Someone on that thread told me about yours here.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:31 pm


Then wtf ARE you saying? WTF is the purpose of your DMT ELVES thread?

If anyone needs to get a grip it's you (the zzzz guy is already too far gone).
Kenny, you should have figured me out by now. Most of the time, in any given thread, I am just thinking about and considering various ideas and arguments to see what I think makes the most sense, not trying to defend a particular pro or con argument about the subject at hand. If you see me arguing against something, it's usually against someone's assumptions. I am strongly opposed to assumptions, regardless of what they are about.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:34 pm

This! You claimed (admittedly in the other thread) that the ELVES are real and DMT provides a 'viewport' or some {!#%@} into another dimension or some such {!#%@}.
No, Kenny, I didn't. You just misunderstood me. Try reading it again without any pre-assumptions of what you think my opinion is, and then (hopefully) you will see what I'm really saying.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:38 pm

Eric D R wrote:

Then wtf ARE you saying? WTF is the purpose of your DMT ELVES thread?

If anyone needs to get a grip it's you (the zzzz guy is already too far gone).
Kenny, you should have figured me out by now. Most of the time, in any given thread, I am just thinking about and considering various ideas and arguments to see what I think makes the most sense, not trying to defend a particular pro or con argument about the subject at hand. If you see me arguing against something, it's usually against someone's assumptions. I am strongly opposed to assumptions, regardless of what they are about.
And yet you continue to make such unsupportable claims and expect them to be taken seriously. You see why everyone here is beginning to put you in the same category and wooists and pseudoscience believers.

If you were actually opposed to assumptions then you would make your statements in a completely different manner than what you do. The fact is that you want to and in fact do believe in this {!#%@} (or at the very least give it credence that it does not deserve). When you make your statements you are given perfectly reasonable refutations or reasons for such things happening and you continue to argue otherwise. That is NOT someone OPPOSED TO ASSUMPTIONS, but someone that is DEFENDING them.
Last edited by kennyc on Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:41 pm

Eric D R wrote:
This! You claimed (admittedly in the other thread) that the ELVES are real and DMT provides a 'viewport' or some {!#%@} into another dimension or some such {!#%@}.
No, Kenny, I didn't. You just misunderstood me. Try reading it again without any pre-assumptions of what you think my opinion is, and then (hopefully) you will see what I'm really saying.
Why don't you try thinking about how your assumptions (or those that you are defending) could potentially be wrong before posting and arguing for them. See this is your biggest failing, you are not a skeptic, the first thing you should do is try to understand what a reasonable, rational, scientific explanation might be instead of assuming some magical woo.

You want the magical woo Eric, I've seen it over and over and over. This discussion is no different than our past 'discussions' of consciousness or mind/brain. :roll:
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:43 pm

Kaepora wrote:Well, then what about your claim? You're claiming these elves are real. Or the fact that you are saying that:
I'm talking about the sensory material and images (visual or otherwise) that your brain filters out normally


Which could be chalked up to hallucinations created by the human brain on drugs.
I never claimed that the elves were real in an objective sense. I did say they were real as a subjective experience. But that's not real in the objective sense that you mean.

As for the quote above about the brain filtering out certain sensory material and subconscious images, well you can read the article I posted the link to. It's still there.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:44 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote: It's sort of what hallucinations are... the FEELING of truth or reality doesn't imply a thing about an underlying reality in your psyche, or the world beyond.
Ultimately it always boils down to the felt presence of direct experience. the only way to assess 'how real' something is is to ask a person how real it felt. The idea that the truth is 'out there' to be discovered is an illusion of a reductionist mindset applied to an intrinsically holistic thing; consciousness. I think Einstein said it best when he said "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

Also: “A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”
No, that just tells you how real they FELT it was.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:48 pm

Here is what you said:
So what to make of all this? Are we dealing with another "plane of existence", a "parallel universe", or a mere creation of the imagination. Here's one attempt at a neurological explanation taken from the wikipedia article on "machine elves":
James Kent has put forth an explanation for machine elves. Kent postulates that the DMT landscape is simply disrupting or "editing" our processing of visual information and causing a chaotic interpretation of it inspired by hyperactive phosphene activity. The brain may fill in the blanks and since we all have an affinity for anthropomorphic things, a humanoid entity may appear out of all this chaos. Our "imaginal workplace" will take the center stage in brain activity, allowing internal data to be interpreted as external stimuli.

Perhaps the jumpy and chaotic, constantly moving and transforming hallucinogenic and phosphenic landscape of the DMT trip gives the experiencer the sense that some creative or intelligent source must be behind it, and so the mind intuitively calls up images of creatures that would seem to create such an environment and reflect its characteristics in their movements and personalities. (Keep in mind that hallucinations and psychadelic experiences do not seem to the conscience to come from itself but rather from an external source).

I find such an explanation quite a bit of a stretch. No doubt, anyone who feels the need to hold tightly to a "normal" view of reality against the constant threats of religion and wooism will gladly seize this postulate and take it as a reasonable-sounding and likely-to-be-correct explanation. But I think there is much more to investigate and know before we can come to any solid theoretical explanation of this extremely bizarre and fascinating phenomenon.
Now if that isn't "PULLING FOR THE WOO" I don't know what is. And in post #2 Daedalus offered you a perfectly reasonable, rational and scientific explanation which you subsequently dismissed and continue to argue against.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:50 pm

Eric D R wrote:
Kaepora wrote:Well, then what about your claim? You're claiming these elves are real. Or the fact that you are saying that:
I'm talking about the sensory material and images (visual or otherwise) that your brain filters out normally


Which could be chalked up to hallucinations created by the human brain on drugs.
I never claimed that the elves were real in an objective sense. I did say they were real as a subjective experience. But that's not real in the objective sense that you mean.

As for the quote above about the brain filtering out certain sensory material and subconscious images, well you can read the article I posted the link to. It's still there.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Typical Eric BS....
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:00 pm

And yet you continue to make such unsupportable claims and expect them to be taken seriously. You see why everyone here is beginning to put you in the same category and wooists and pseudoscience believers.
Quote the claim, Kenny. Show me one place where I made an unsupportable claim about anhy aspect of objective reality.
The fact is that you want to and in fact do believe in this {!#%@} (or at the very least give it credence that it does not deserve. When you make you statements you are given perfectly reasonable refutations or reasons for such things happening and you continue to argue otherwise. That is NOT someone OPPOSED TO ASSUMPTIONS, but someone that is DEFENDING them.
No, I argue otherwise when you misunderstand what I'm saying and think it's a claim. And you do that because of your own assumptions about me. You have no idea what I actually believe.
Why don't you try thinking about how your assumptions (or those that you are defending) could potentially be wrong before posting and arguing for them. See this is your biggest failing, you are not a skeptic, the first thing you should do is try to understand what a reasonable, rational, scientific explanation might be instead of assuming some magical woo.
No, I'm not a "skeptic" in the sense that you guys (most of you on here) mean it. But I also am not a wooist and I don't assume "some magical woo". I'm just agnostic. I know what I wish were true, but I can't make myself believe it.
You want the magical woo Eric, I've seen it over and over and over. This discussion is no different than our past 'discussions' of consciousness or mind/brain. :roll:
You think that only because I play devil's advocate all the time. I try to pull apart people's arguments and look for holes in them. If this were a new age forum, I'd be looking for holes in their woo arguments and sounding more like a physicalist rationalist skeptic. But since this is a skeptic forum, I'm doing the opposite. That's why you think I'm arguing for magical woo. Because you see me arguing against skeptical assumptions or pointing out other possible ways of looking at things. But if you look closely, you will see that I don't actually make objective claims.

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:03 pm

You're not making claims Eric, just a lot of insinuations that stand in for claims. I suppose it's possible that you're not trying to do that, and that really you're being terribly misunderstood, which is what you're saying I think.

Still, my impression, which I trust, is that you actively avoid making claims while trying to imply what you believe indirectly.

If I'm wrong, if Kenny is wrong, you could simply state clearly what you DO believe, and put this all to rest.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:04 pm

Eric D R wrote:
Try reading it again without any pre-assumptions of what you think my opinion is, and then (hopefully) you will see what I'm really saying.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by kennyc » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:08 pm

Daedalus wrote:You're not making claims Eric, just a lot of insinuations that stand in for claims. I suppose it's possible that you're not trying to do that, and that really you're being terribly misunderstood, which is what you're saying I think.

Still, my impression, which I trust, is that you actively avoid making claims while trying to imply what you believe indirectly.

If I'm wrong, if Kenny is wrong, you could simply state clearly what you DO believe, and put this all to rest.
This. Exactly. Typical Eric behavior.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Eric D R » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:12 pm

kennyc wrote:Here is what you said:
So what to make of all this? Are we dealing with another "plane of existence", a "parallel universe", or a mere creation of the imagination. Here's one attempt at a neurological explanation taken from the wikipedia article on "machine elves":
James Kent has put forth an explanation for machine elves. Kent postulates that the DMT landscape is simply disrupting or "editing" our processing of visual information and causing a chaotic interpretation of it inspired by hyperactive phosphene activity. The brain may fill in the blanks and since we all have an affinity for anthropomorphic things, a humanoid entity may appear out of all this chaos. Our "imaginal workplace" will take the center stage in brain activity, allowing internal data to be interpreted as external stimuli.

Perhaps the jumpy and chaotic, constantly moving and transforming hallucinogenic and phosphenic landscape of the DMT trip gives the experiencer the sense that some creative or intelligent source must be behind it, and so the mind intuitively calls up images of creatures that would seem to create such an environment and reflect its characteristics in their movements and personalities. (Keep in mind that hallucinations and psychadelic experiences do not seem to the conscience to come from itself but rather from an external source).

I find such an explanation quite a bit of a stretch. No doubt, anyone who feels the need to hold tightly to a "normal" view of reality against the constant threats of religion and wooism will gladly seize this postulate and take it as a reasonable-sounding and likely-to-be-correct explanation. But I think there is much more to investigate and know before we can come to any solid theoretical explanation of this extremely bizarre and fascinating phenomenon.
Now if that isn't "PULLING FOR THE WOO" I don't know what is. And in post #2 Daedalus offered you a perfectly reasonable, rational and scientific explanation which you subsequently dismissed and continue to argue against.
No, it's not "pulling for the woo". I only raised doubts about Kent's hypothesis. It's not pulling for anything. It's called "agnosticism" (and it's also skepticism of a specific physiological argument).

Now, I will admit that I would like survival of consciousness or the soul to be true (and i think a number of others on this forum have said the same), but I can't make myself believe it or try to claim that it is.