The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:17 am

Kaepora Gaebora wrote:"Lots of people have used it in the past" is not valid in proving its safety, let alone with their 'intense knowledge'; do you think that tribes or other people then would really understand transient psychosis? Or would they reduce that to demons in the body and proceed to stone them or other painful rituals?
I quite agree with this, just look at alcohol, people have used that for thousands of years ... it produces short term gain for long term pain yet people still use that. With all sorts of nasty metabolites. Luckily the alcoholic cultures that used it too much or to excess have been selected against over time, even if the rich have always indulged irrespective of inheriting their power and money. We've probably even evolved a tolerance to the nasty effects of alcohol in certain cultures on the planet due to excessive consumption. Then there was the opiate boom in Victorian times. The massive sugar trade that resulted in slavery, etc. All short term gain for long term pain.

The weird thing about ayahusaca is it's not recreational in the slightest. People do not do this for fun. Yet these cultures still do it.
And natural vs synthetic drugs is not a valid argument as many drugs have been derived from biologic sources down to the chemicals that make the source effective in treating symptoms and disease. The other stuff is removed to reduce the amount of negative or unintended side effects and have more control over the concentrations. Once a lab can synthesize it without a natural source, they do away with the source. This happened with thyroid hormones; pig or other animal thyroids were originally given as prescription for thyroid problems such as Hashimoto's disease, but the concentration levels for the hormones inside it cannot be controlled, so synthetic was produced and you don't see much prescription of animal thyroids anymore.
I agree with this too. It's amazing what we can now do with these compounds, ie, select the most important beneficial ones out from the not so beneficial ones. Like aspirin from willow bark. Or now we can extract the raw natural form of DMT from ayahuasca without having to go through all the hassle of drinking all the other pesky alkaloids. DMT with a prescription MAOI is called pharamahuasca.

In a few rare cases the natural is preferable to the refined, such as with poppy tea, where the LD50 is much higher than with the refined dihydromorphine or morphine. But you are getting all manner of extra alkaloids that you may not need if you choose the natural way.

However, if you were to ingest purely synthetic drugs like MPTP or any of the plethora of other synthetic chemicals you are exposing yourself to completely new drugs that have absolutely no history of human consumption. I'm not in the slightest bit anti drug or anti medicine, but as I say we have a legacy of use of these plant intoxicants that we can trace back thousands of years. And you can be sure that any culture ingesting MPTP would have been severely selected against over time, permanent symptoms of Parkinson's disease is not something that easily goes unnoticed.
Sometimes they can't reduce the natural source to find out which chemical products are responsible for the wanted effect. This is true with the St John's Wart; there is a known effect on depression, but nobody knows exactly what compound(s) is/are doing it. Then you have side effects that are due to other chemicals interacting with the body (such as the increased risk of photo sensitivity) and reactions with other drugs that are probably unnecessary if the compound or compounds is/are reduced.
Agreed here too, there are some 500 compounds in cannabis yet the cannabinoids that produce the positive effects without the negative effects have yet to be isolated. Δ9-THC alone (the main active compound) is actually a strongly psychotic agent, it's only balanced out by the anti-psychotic effects of the other CBDs. Hopefully one day we can isolate the giggle cannabinoid from the paranoia causing ones :D

More seriously though, from a medicinal perspective, hopefully we can isolate the anti-inflamatory, anti-nausea, anti depressant and anxiolitic ones in the not too distant future. Sailing off into exotic A-796260 or CP-47,497 synthetic cannabinoids seems way too premature to me when we have the natural product ready and waiting to test and isolate the active ingredients, interesting as their effects may be in experimental studies. Methinks a certain amount of politics comes into play about the unpatenability of easily grown and extracted alkaloids from natural herbs at this point.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:11 pm

Cool, I knew around this year the evidence would become so compelling even the media would have to pay attention.

http://banoosh.com/blog/2013/07/08/psil ... o-50940/0/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Psilocybin Mushrooms Promote Growth of New Brain Cells, Can Even Cure PTSD And Depression

New studies show that psilocybin removes the trauma and fear from memories in the minds of mice, and even stimulates the growth of a significant amount of new brain cells.

Studies from The University of South Florida indicate that psilocin (or psilocybin, which metabolizes into psilocin), found in “shrooms”, triggers new brain cell growth, and erases frightening memories from mice. Mice trained to fear electric shock when hearing a noise associated with the shock, stopped reacting in fear to the noise when given a small dose of psilocybin, much more quickly, in contrast to mice given no psilocybin. “They simply lost their fear”, exclaimed the co-author of the study, Dr. Juan Sanchez-Ramos, a professor of movement disorders.

Much more research could be done by ordinary people and professors alike, if the US government and other too powerful governments weren’t at war with their own citizens over drugs. Psilocybin mushrooms, or “shrooms” of course, are illegal in the United States, and illegal in other countries simply because the US and western powers bullied them into compliance or persuaded them by some means we don’t know of. Psilocybin mushrooms are a genus of mushroom, called “psilocybe”. Such mushrooms that fall into this genus are Psilocybe Cubensis, or Psilocybe Bispora.

People are eager to look into the idea of using Psilocybin Mushrooms to cure PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder), chronic depression, and a wide range of other mental and physical ailments, so we will just have to get government off our backs to do so. These mushrooms are harmless, cannot cause overdose, cannot cause death (unless you become frightened and hurt yourself on accident, but that is extremely rare and potentially unheard of, and is the case for almost any psychoactive substance).

[snip]
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:49 pm

Sorry I should explain why I posted that here as many will not see the connection between magic mushrooms and DMT, the active ingredient in magic mushrooms is psilocybin which is instantly metabolized into the active compound which is psilocin (4-HO-DMT).

Psilocybin is 4-phosphoryloxy-nn-dimethyltryptamine (the 4-phosphorylated version of DMT) so these two compounds are chemical cousins. The subjective differences seem to be quite distinct with psilocybin being longer yet less intense but have the same spiritual effect on peoples psyche and outlook when the 'trip' is over. Psilocin is also very chemically similar to serotonin, and it's no co-incidence that a lot of these pseudo-neurotransmitters are stronger the closer you get to ordinary brain chemicals. Charles Grob explains the positive effects of both here.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:34 pm

Mice trained to fear electric shock when hearing a noise associated with the shock, stopped reacting in fear to the noise when given a small dose of psilocybin, much more quickly, in contrast to mice given no psilocybin. “They simply lost their fear”,.../
So what the article is saying is that mice lost their fear that under normal circumstances would prevent most creatures to avoid pain or harm if they could?
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:55 pm

scrmbldggs wrote: So what the article is saying is that mice lost their fear that under normal circumstances would prevent most creatures to avoid pain or harm if they could?
Not quite, annoyingly since mushrooms are in the ridiculous situation of being class A with 'no medicinal use' all we have to go on is animal studies (apart from a few recent human trials which I linked to here) and hope they extrapolate to humans. Which they generally do, ~98% similar physiology, etc. There are always certain insidious assumptions in this due to the unique nature of our neocortical structure and unique cognitive capabilities however.

Read the human studies in the the link above and try to tell me they are really of 'no medicinal use' :?

The situation is beyond absurd.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:17 pm

zeuzzz wrote:Read the human studies in the the link above and try to tell me they are really of 'no medicinal use' :?
That's not what I'm saying. There very well could be. I'm merely pointing out that there usually is a flip side to a coin that should not be overlooked.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:21 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:Read the human studies in the the link above and try to tell me they are really of 'no medicinal use' :?
That's not what I'm saying. There very well could be. I'm merely pointing out that there usually is a flip side to a coin that should not be overlooked.
Yeah, this is a great argument that such compounds should be studied (and should have been for years). The solution however, is not to take a bunch of it recreationally and hope for the best.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:35 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:That's not what I'm saying. There very well could be. I'm merely pointing out that there usually is a flip side to a coin that should not be overlooked.
This coin tends to land on its edge every time though.

If you follow all the mechanistic type studies into its neurophysiology you could probably reach completely different conclusions than the psychopharmacology journals.

The difference is the psycopharmacology journals actually have the courtesy of asking the people what the subjective effects on them are and reporting this, whereas the mechanistic perspective journals (while certainly still useful) just treat people like a molecular machines.

From a mechanistic viewpoint a materialist might look at the mechanics of psilocybin on the brain and say it's just causing a sort of chaos, in other words evil brain chemicals have interrupted the functioning of good normal brain chemicals and are creating a chaotic state.

They key to get an accurate view of what it does is to include subjective experience, ask the person and include that in the data.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:37 pm

Daedalus wrote:Yeah, this is a great argument that such compounds should be studied (and should have been for years). The solution however, is not to take a bunch of it recreationally and hope for the best.
OOOOOOOOPS!
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:08 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote:Yeah, this is a great argument that such compounds should be studied (and should have been for years). The solution however, is not to take a bunch of it recreationally and hope for the best.
OOOOOOOOPS!
?
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:32 pm

Daedalus wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote:Yeah, this is a great argument that such compounds should be studied (and should have been for years). The solution however, is not to take a bunch of it recreationally and hope for the best.
OOOOOOOOPS!
?
I have many times taken a "bunch of it recreationally" and hoped for the best. Each time the recreational prospect turns into a more therapeutic one.

But I kinda knew what I was doing. I'm not advocating people do this. Picking the right type is an art, you need to take a spore print if you are unsure. In fact if you are unsure don't even try.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:17 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote:Yeah, this is a great argument that such compounds should be studied (and should have been for years). The solution however, is not to take a bunch of it recreationally and hope for the best.
OOOOOOOOPS!
?
I have many times taken a "bunch of it recreationally" and hoped for the best. Each time the recreational prospect turns into a more therapeutic one.

But I kinda knew what I was doing. I'm not advocating people do this. Picking the right type is an art, you need to take a spore print if you are unsure. In fact if you are unsure don't even try.
No, you didn't know what you were doing, you were literally hoping for the best and happen to be pleased with the outcome. Any sense of confidence or surety someone has in this is only a feeling, not a reality. Again, a substance being potentially useful makes it, in my view, more likely to be potentially harmful as well. Similarity to endogenous neurotransmitters like Serotonin, even more so.

If you want to know how much "natural" can hurt you, take some L-Dopa.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:33 pm

Daedalus wrote: If you want to know how much "natural" can hurt you, take some L-Dopa.
L-dopa for dopamine does not quite work how serotonin does for SSRI's. It's quite distinct from 5-htp. It's not like raising dopamine makes you happier lol. It's really not that simple. Raising dopamine too much is an awful idea.

I knew exactly what I was doing. I can walk you through the steps if you want? Communities like this are extremely cautious and educational.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:10 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote: If you want to know how much "natural" can hurt you, take some L-Dopa.
L-dopa for dopamine does not quite work how serotonin does for SSRI's. It's quite distinct from 5-htp. It's not like raising dopamine makes you happier lol. It's really not that simple. Raising dopamine too much is an awful idea.

I knew exactly what I was doing. I can walk you through the steps if you want? Communities like this are extremely cautious and educational.
It's impossible for you to know exactly what you're doing when the research isn't there, and it's dangerous to delude yourself into thinking that you do.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:24 pm

Daedalus wrote: It's impossible for you to know exactly what you're doing when the research isn't there, and it's dangerous to delude yourself into thinking that you do.
Can you be more precise so this can be more productive?

Do you mean the dangers of picking the wrong species? The % of psilocybin in the mushroom? The lack of phase three clinical trials into psilocybin? The geographic variants in psilocybin yields? The set and the setting of the trip? The psychopharmacology of psilocybin? The neurophysiology of psilocybin?
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:30 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote: It's impossible for you to know exactly what you're doing when the research isn't there, and it's dangerous to delude yourself into thinking that you do.
Can you be more precise so this can be more productive?

Do you mean the dangers of picking the wrong species? The % of psilocybin in the mushroom? The lack of phase three clinical trials into psilocybin? The geographic variants in psilocybin yields? The set and the setting of the trip? The psychopharmacology of psilocybin? The neurophysiology of psilocybin?
I mean unknowns because it hasn't been well studied in a formal setting, so specifically the psychopharm and neurophysiology.

I realize that your response will be that what studies have been done have shown a minimum capacity for harm, and I'll respond that those studies are too few and far between to bet your brain on.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:17 am

I hear your point and before I link to studies I raise you evolution by natural selection.

Do you drink alcohol? Have you ever looked into the neurophysiological effect of nasty metabolites like acetaldehye on the brain?

Can you link me to the phase III clinical studies showing it's clinical efficacy and physiological safety? :P
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:19 am

zeuzzz wrote:I hear your point and before I link to studies I raise you evolution by natural selection.

Do you drink alcohol?

Can you link me to the phase III clinical studies showing it's clinical efficacy and physiological safety? :P
I try to avoid too much of it on the basis that a number of studies show it has the capacity to be incredibly toxic.

Oh I see... one thing is bad for you, so why not do lots of bad things?

Here, have some arsenic, you use 'shrooms right?
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:21 am

Daedalus wrote:
zeuzzz wrote: Here, have some arsenic, you use 'shrooms right?
Hand waving and extraneous obfuscation of the facts noted.

You drink dihydrogen monoxide right? Why not drink unicorn piss too?
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:26 am

zeuzzz, we get your point. But no one here says, go ahead, drink it. It's safe in my estimate.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:28 am

scrmbldggs wrote:zeuzzz, we get your point. But no one here says, go ahead, drink it. It's safe in my estimate.
Same with mushrooms, in my estimate, based on the scientific literature.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:31 am

Just for fun... :-P
Spoiler:
Image
(Thanks, Kaepora! Seen it on a vid you linked to.)
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:35 am

zeuzzz wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:zeuzzz, we get your point. But no one here says, go ahead, drink it. It's safe in my estimate.
Same with mushrooms, in my estimate, based on the scientific literature.
For someone who claims to be all about an open mind, you're remarkably blind to anything that doesn't adhere to your extremely narrow set of preconceived notions. The descent to fatuous red herrings after just a few posts does not bode well for the depth of your knowledge.

You can say that you don't care if there is a lack of safety and efficacy data for the drugs you regularly take, but don't pretend that it does exist then point to a handful of studies over decades. I wouldn't take aspirin if that was the sum total of the literature on it, and if you would it just shows that you're happy to gamble.

Guess what, I'm happy for you to gamble too, because I don't care about you at all. That being said, someone I cared about asking me for advice would get a realistic warning. Mushrooms, DMT... are probably not overly harmful in extreme moderation, beyond the risk of extremely bad trips, which can be traumatic. If you're willing to risk a bit of PTSD, you're probably NOT going to fry your brain trying it once.

Beyond that, you're venturing into the unknown, which could mean it's truly harmless, or it could be that like alcohol it takes a HEAVY toll down the road.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:39 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Just for fun... :-P
Spoiler:
Image
(Thanks, Kaepora! Seen it on a vid you linked to.)
:lol:

Love it.

Meanwhile on Planet Zeuzzz... I wonder if he thinks that there might be drug interactions to look out for with his favorite drugs? Don't take Tylenol with alcohol? Check.

Anything like that with Psilocybin or DMT? Who knows... nobody has bothered to check. Maybe it's perfectly safe, unless you take drug X and then you're slowly boned. Who knows?

SAFE AS KITTENS!

:lol:

Oh man I love this site.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:41 am

Nice rhetoric. I noticed you dodged the literature I linked to. Any comments on Professor Nutts 2010 Lancet study?

To refute one of your points directly:
Daedalus wrote:If you're willing to risk a bit of PTSD, you're probably NOT going to fry your brain trying it once.
http://digitaljournal.com/article/353812" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Researchers have found that low doses of psilocybin, the active substance in magic mushrooms, help mice overcome conditioned fear response, opening up the possibility of use of psilocybin in the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

The research study titled "Effects of psilocybin on hippocampal neurogenesis and extinction of trace fear conditioning," published in the June issue of the journal of Experimental Brain Research, by a team of scientists, including Dr. Briony Catlow of the Lieber Institute of Brain Development and Dr. Juan Sanchez-Ramos, professor at the University of South Florida, studied the effect of low doses of the hallucinogen psilocybin in mice conditioned to exhibit "fear response" to an auditory tone linked to a painful stimulus, specifically, an electric shock delivered soon after the mice were exposed to the auditory tone.
The researchers found that mice administered low doses of psilocybin overcame the conditioned fear response faster than mice that did not receive the drug.

Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/353812#ixzz2aIfSUgkj" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Reference: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23727882" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:43 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Just for fun... :-P
Spoiler:
Image
(Thanks, Kaepora! Seen it on a vid you linked to.)
lolz

I just took a picture of my garden.

Image
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:44 am

zeuzzz wrote:Nice rhetoric. I noticed you dodged the literature I linked to. Any comments on Professor Nutts 2010 Lancet study?

To refute one of your points directly:
Daedalus wrote:If you're willing to risk a bit of PTSD, you're probably NOT going to fry your brain trying it once.
http://digitaljournal.com/article/353812" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Researchers have found that low doses of psilocybin, the active substance in magic mushrooms, help mice overcome conditioned fear response, opening up the possibility of use of psilocybin in the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

The research study titled "Effects of psilocybin on hippocampal neurogenesis and extinction of trace fear conditioning," published in the June issue of the journal of Experimental Brain Research, by a team of scientists, including Dr. Briony Catlow of the Lieber Institute of Brain Development and Dr. Juan Sanchez-Ramos, professor at the University of South Florida, studied the effect of low doses of the hallucinogen psilocybin in mice conditioned to exhibit "fear response" to an auditory tone linked to a painful stimulus, specifically, an electric shock delivered soon after the mice were exposed to the auditory tone.
The researchers found that mice administered low doses of psilocybin overcame the conditioned fear response faster than mice that did not receive the drug.

Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/353812#ixzz2aIfSUgkj" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Reference: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23727882" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What's to address? Posting the same study over and over doesn't demonstrate efficacy for recreational use, or safety in any meaningful sense. Besides, Scrambles nicely poked some fairly large holes in that a page back, IIRC.

Why don't you talk more about the safety data, I'm sure you have reams of it, right? Is it OK to take MAOI's with DMT? Psilocybin?

Any other interactions to watch out for, or do your sources give the all-clear? :lol:
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:51 am

Daedalus wrote: Why don't you talk more about the safety data, I'm sure you have reams of it, right? Is it OK to take MAOI's with DMT? Psilocybin?

Any other interactions to watch out for, or do your sources give the all-clear? :lol:
MAOI's like syrain rue, harmaline or other MAOIs in general are the ideal way to take DMT orally, as it's normally destroyed by enzymes and without an MAOI the body quickly metabolizes oral DMT and destroys it, and it therefore has no therapeutic effect unless the dose exceeds MAOIs metabolic capacity. Also an MAOI with magic mushrooms has been done for possibly thousands of years.

Erowid states the following at Erowid --> Mushroom Vault --> Basics:
Taking psyilocybin containing mushrooms while on an MAOI can dramatically increase the effects of the experience. MAOIs are most commonly found in the prescription anti-depressants Nardil (phenelzine), Parnate (tranylcypromine), Marplan (isocarboxazid), Eldepryl (l-deprenyl), and Aurorex or Manerix (moclobemide). Ayahuasca also contains MAOIs (harmine and harmaline). Check with your doctor if you are not sure whether your prescription medication is an MAOI.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:54 am

zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote: Why don't you talk more about the safety data, I'm sure you have reams of it, right? Is it OK to take MAOI's with DMT? Psilocybin?

Any other interactions to watch out for, or do your sources give the all-clear? :lol:
MAOI's like syrain rue, harmaline or other MAOIs in general are the ideal way to take DMT orally, as it's normally destroyed by enzymes and without an MAOI the body quickly metabolizes oral DMT and destroys it, and it therefore has no therapeutic effect unless the dose exceeds MAOIs metabolic capacity. Also an MAOI with magic mushrooms has been done for possibly thousands of years.

Erowid states the following at Erowid --> Mushroom Vault --> Basics:
Taking psyilocybin containing mushrooms while on an MAOI can dramatically increase the effects of the experience. MAOIs are most commonly found in the prescription anti-depressants Nardil (phenelzine), Parnate (tranylcypromine), Marplan (isocarboxazid), Eldepryl (l-deprenyl), and Aurorex or Manerix (moclobemide). Ayahuasca also contains MAOIs (harmine and harmaline). Check with your doctor if you are not sure whether your prescription medication is an MAOI.
Well there you go, ironclad safety data!

:lol:
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:55 am

Daedalus wrote:Well there you go, ironclad safety data!

:lol:
Nope just basic pharmacology based on hundreds of thousands of reports.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:56 am

zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote:Well there you go, ironclad safety data!

:lol:
Nope just basic pharmacology based on hundreds of thousands of reports.
Sure, that's all you need to determine safety after all.

Say, pass the Effexor and some Ayahuasca would you? I want to see how this {!#%@} interacts!
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:59 am

Daedalus wrote: Sure, that's all you need to determine safety after all.

Say, pass the Effexor and some Ayahuasca would you? I want to see how this {!#%@} interacts!
Modern SNRI class antidepressants would be extremely un-advisable to combine with ayahuasca, you risk serotonin syndrome. That would just be retarded. Pharmahuasca would be the safest way to continue if your going all clinical.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:01 am

zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote: Sure, that's all you need to determine safety after all.

Say, pass the Effexor and some Ayahuasca would you? I want to see how this {!#%@} interacts!
Modern SNRI class antidepressants would be extremely un-advisable to combine with ayahuasca, you risk serotonin syndrome. That would just be retarded. Pharmahuasca would be the safest way to continue if your going all clinical.
Anything else to look out for that might not be as obvious as mixing an MAOI and SNRI/SSRI? Come on man, I wanna get lit, but as the average American I'm on a {!#%@} RAINBOW of Rx's.

Lipitor?
Avandia?
Cialis? (DON'T MOCK ME!!!)
How about Xanax?
Is it OK to mix with some weed?
Alcohol?
Alcohol and 'shrooms OK?

I just want to KNOW
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:06 am

Daedalus wrote: Anything else to look out for that might not be as obvious as mixing an MAOI and SNRI/SSRI? Come on man, I wanna get lit, but as the average American I'm on a {!#%@} RAINBOW of Rx's.
If your on any sort of re-uptake inhibitor in general you should not be doing psychedelics this strong. It's really just common sense, a physician would never let you take DMT or mushrooms on other medications unless they were straight up MAOIs or GABAgenics, generally psychoative medications are severely contraindicated with these substances. As long as they target completely different brain systems and receptors they should be ok, but I doubt any would be advised to combine. Plus if you already have severe mental health issues you should not be taking these substances anyway.

You mention xanax, that would be ideal for someone post trip if they are having a bad time, and is usually the first choice a doctor would give to someone having a bad trip. Intravenous diazepam would be the first line treatment and is no way contraindicated by these substances.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:08 am

zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote: Anything else to look out for that might not be as obvious as mixing an MAOI and SNRI/SSRI? Come on man, I wanna get lit, but as the average American I'm on a {!#%@} RAINBOW of Rx's.
If your on any sort of re-uptake inhibitor in general you should not be doing psychedelics this strong. It's really just common sense, a physician would never let you take DMT or mushrooms on other medications unless they were straight up MAOIs or GABAgenics, generally psychoative medications are severely contraindicated with these substances. As long as they target completely different brain systems and receptors they should be ok, but I doubt any would be advised to combine. Plus if you already have severe mental health issues you should not be taking these substances anyway.
How about Gabapentin? Benzodiazepines? Antibiotics? Hepatic meds? What if I have a specific cytochrome deficiency?

Remember, I might just be moderately dysthymic, not seriously mentally ill! Maybe I'm a bit anxious, not crazy. Maybe I had a stroke a while back, or have some cardiovascular issues, or pulmonary concerns, etc... etc...

What's safe?
What's not safe?

Almost everyone over 30 is on at least 1 med, so what's OK, and what's not?

P.S. If you need a benzo to 'come down' from a bad trip, that alone should tell you something about the intensity and potential dangers on a psychological level alone.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:11 am

Daedalus wrote: How about Gabapentin?
Gabapentin should be ok, pregabalin is not advised as that reduces the seizure threshold >500mg, phenibut is probably not advisable as that has a similar pharmacological profile to pregabalin.
Benzodiazepines?
Should be fine, GABAgenics have been used to treat psychedelic overdoses for decades.
Antibiotics?
Should be fine.
Hepatic meds? What if I have a specific cytochrome deficiency?
No clue, ask your doctor.
Remember, I might just be moderately dysthymic, not seriously mentally ill! Maybe I'm a bit anxious, not crazy.
Na your definitively crazy :P
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:12 am

zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote: How about Gabapentin?
Gabapentin should be ok, pregabalin is not advised as that reduces the seizure threshold >500mg, phenibut is probably not advisable as that has a similar pharmacological profile to pregabalin.
Benzodiazepines?
Should be fine, GABAgenics have been used to treat psychedelic overdoses for decades.
Antibiotics?
Should be fine.
Hepatic meds? What if I have a specific cytochrome deficiency?
No clue, ask your doctor.
Remember, I might just be moderately dysthymic, not seriously mentally ill! Maybe I'm a bit anxious, not crazy.
Na your definitively crazy :P
OK, we know I'm crazy... concede. As for the rest... cite? I really would like to read the information on this, because I didn't know it existed.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:12 am

Daedalus wrote: P.S. If you need a benzo to 'come down' from a bad trip, that alone should tell you something about the intensity and potential dangers on a psychological level alone.
You don't. This is in case of adverse psychological reaction, in reality very few if anyone needs this. Only in medical emergencies.
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by Daedalus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:13 am

zeuzzz wrote:
Daedalus wrote: P.S. If you need a benzo to 'come down' from a bad trip, that alone should tell you something about the intensity and potential dangers on a psychological level alone.
You don't. This is in case of adverse psychological reaction, in reality very few if anyone needs this. Only in medical emergencies.
I see real cause for concern in any drug that can induce such a profound disturbance that benzos are warranted even in extreme cases. That doesn't mean it's going to fry your brain, but that's more of a terrible experience than most people will have in their lives.
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"Given time and plenty of paper, philosophers can prove anything." (Robert Heinlein)
"The map is not the territory." (Alfred Korzybski)
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Re: The stoned ravings of the DMT brigade

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:20 am

Daedalus wrote: I see real cause for concern in any drug that can induce such a profound disturbance that benzos are warranted even in extreme cases. That doesn't mean it's going to fry your brain, but that's more of a terrible experience than most people will have in their lives.
You could say the same for public speeches causing people panic attacks.

The best way to overcome the anxiety is to overcome your fear by confronting it, not run away from it.
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