Neocon Watch

Talk, debate, discussion, observations, etc... regarding episodes of MonsterTalk.
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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:50 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Most people I know would call that lying.
Well you would be the expert on lying wouldn't you? Have you found your magical link to the "Supreme Court of Australia" yet? :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt: you have said about Five times now that USA did not fight in the Yom Kippur war
that's because it didn't. :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Or is it that USA did not put troops on the front/active line?
The USA didn't put any troops on the active line because it was not at war with Egypt and Syria who attacked Israel.

Would cartoons help you understand this really simple part of history?
:lol: :lol:

Tell us about Lajes Field and why you couldn't land in Sicily? :lol: :lol:

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:08 am

Nikki Haley and MIC revolving door business as usual:
www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/neoco ... -sickened/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:10 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:50 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Most people I know would call that lying.
Well you would be the expert on lying wouldn't you? Have you found your magical link to the "Supreme Court of Australia" yet? :lol:
True or False: Australia has courts that are called "Supreme Courts."

True or False: The Supreme Courts IN Oz do a very different job than the Supreme Court of the USA.

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:50 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt: you have said about Five times now that USA did not fight in the Yom Kippur war
that's because it didn't.
I already said "participated." No wonder you never admit to being wrong.......you simply can't change the first idea that pops into your head.




Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:50 am


Tell us about Lajes Field and why you couldn't land in Sicily? :lol: :lol:
I did land in Sicily. Your memory has been pretty faulty on most of the details. I think I told the story of having to sleep on a pile of dirt because there was no housing available given the mass influx of airplanes.................

You are very tiresome Matt..................
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:02 pm

Sociopathic neocons frustrated again:
https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2019/03/05 ... -outraged/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:18 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist previously claimed and wrote: You charged me with lying, not forgery. Or is it the case that in the Supreme Court of Australia in a case of common law equity..........
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=30687&p=695789&hil ... ia#p695789
You were lying. There is no such thing as the Supreme Court of Australia
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: True or False: Australia has courts that are called "Supreme Courts."
There is no such thing as the Supreme Court of Australia. The Commonwealth of Australia has no Supreme courts, The individual states State Supreme courts.

You make up crap on a Skeptic forum and you get exposed on a Skeptic forum. Bad luck Bobbo. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:24 am

Tom Palven wrote: Sociopathic neocons frustrated again:
https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2019/03/05 ... -outraged/
From your propaganda link
"US-named Venezuela president Juan Guaido defied the Venezuelan government and returned to the country yesterday."

Your anti-Hillary Clinton extreme-conservative "propaganda blog" forgot to mention that Juan Guaido called himself president. USA neo-conservatives didn't even know he existed. :lol: :lol:

Venezuela: opposition leader declares himself ready to assume presidency
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... presidency

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:22 am

Matt: you are stuck on stupid. I'll leave you to Palven and the woosters.
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:23 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Matt: you are stuck on stupid.
No Bobbo. You lied and got caught.

Or is that lieutenant Bobbo........ tell me more about your time in Portugal on Operation Nickel Grass. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:48 am

Matt: what lie did I tell re Operation Nickel Grass? You say my statement that "I fought in Yom Kipur War" is a lie so I changed it to "I participated." You corrected your simple honest error of 20Mill for Bamboo Airplanes........why are you stuck on stupid for Yom Kipur?

Extra Credit: ever hear of a War by Proxy? ..........stupid. Cargo airplanes are not escorted to landing by two fighters in trail outside of War Zones. Call it what you will, but you only damage yourself when stuck on stupid.

Same with refusing to update Supreme Courts 'IN' Australia rather than 'of" Australia. I wonder how many people come to recognize just how manipulative/dishonest you are try to be. Rather stupid/manipulative/dishonest when the link to the proper name was provided at the same time. You give fighting woo a bad name.

Shame....................shame, shame, shame.........on you. Ha, ha. Pass the coke...........
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:51 pm

The neocon movement, as far as I am concerned is most unattractive. I am not a fan of military action to force a political agenda, and I am not a fan of military aid to Israel.

I like to think in terms of balance. Extremism is dangerous in any form, whether belief in the terrors of global warming, right wing or left wing political beliefs, or even something as politically correct as feminism. A more moderate, balanced view is much preferable.

Since the beginning of the Enlightenment the world has been evolving towards something better, with more democracy, more wealth, less violence, fewer serious wars, better health, better international relations, and overall better human welfare. This trend has not been driven by any political movement. Like all forms of evolution, it seems to "just happen." It is not controlled.

I am not in favor of anyone trying to manipulate these changes, but rather to encourage them. Trying to control peoples by political and military means is not the way to go about it.

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:03 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:48 am
Matt: what lie did I tell re Operation Nickel Grass? You say my statement that "I fought in Yom Kipur War" is a lie so I changed it to "I participated."
You claimed to be a lei lieutenant in the USAF who piloted in ammunition to Israel in 1973 in a C5 Galaxy, but unaware of the loadmaster's manifest. You first claimed you fought in the Yom Kippur war. Amazingly, the USAF also delivered munitions to Australia when ANZAC forces fought Indonesia to separate East Timor under UN resolution 1264. Did the USAF also fight against Indonesia? Are you now saying the USAF just "participated". Doesn't the USAF participate in everything it does?

The EU (apart from Portugal) banned all USAF flights over European territory during Nickel Grass. Sicily is part of Italy. Can you remember landing in Portugal?

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:13 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: The neocon movement, as far as I am concerned is most unattractive. I am not a fan of military action to force a political agenda, and I am not a fan of military aid to Israel.
The Neocon movement was historical and limited to the USA, and had total idiots like Paul Wolfowitz claiming the USA should rip up all international treaties. The only remaining neocon in politics today is the other neocon idiot, John Bolton. .

John Bolton has been sacked twice. Trump hired him again as Trump's political base is old and knows John Bolton as conservative. Everything John Bolton touches turns into a disaster. The EU and rest of the world has taken the position that Trump will be gone in 2020 and normal relationships can be established again with Iran. The aniti-short range missile treaty can be re-established with Russia and so on.
Lance Kennedy wrote:I like to think in terms of balance. Extremism is dangerous in any form, whether belief in the terrors of global warming, right wing or left wing political beliefs, or even something as politically correct as feminism. A more moderate, balanced view is much preferable.
I absolutely agree. "Talk festivals" may be expensive and slow but its is better than warfare and trade isolationism. :D


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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:13 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:03 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:48 am
Matt: what lie did I tell re Operation Nickel Grass? You say my statement that "I fought in Yom Kipur War" is a lie so I changed it to "I participated."
You claimed to be a lei lieutenant in the USAF who piloted in ammunition to Israel in 1973 in a C5 Galaxy, but unaware of the loadmaster's manifest. You first claimed you fought in the Yom Kippur war. Amazingly, the USAF also delivered munitions to Australia when ANZAC forces fought Indonesia to separate East Timor under UN resolution 1264. Did the USAF also fight against Indonesia? Are you now saying the USAF just "participated". Doesn't the USAF participate in everything it does?

The EU (apart from Portugal) banned all USAF flights over European territory during Nickel Grass. Sicily is part of Italy. Can you remember landing in Portugal?
1. I was a Captain.

2. It was an H/C-141, a smaller aircraft than the C-5. Of note: I left the Air Force rather than be assigned to fly the C-5. It was always broken and had a lousy mission. Just too boring for bobbo.

3. I was totally aware of the manifest: artillery shells. Don't know what kind of shells (Howitzer, Mortar---I don't know) and my memory of them being "65 millimeter shells" could be wrong as the conversion doesn't match? About 6 inches in diameter and about 3 feet long. Loaded standing up on pallets, 100 to a pallet and we carried 10 pallets.

4. I still claim I fought in the Yom Kipur war "in the way cargo pilots do" by delivering artillery shells to Tel Aviv airport. After your comment, I have confirmed via google that indeed USA never "declared War" or other similar statements but rather was in a proxy contest with Russia who was supplying Egypt. I was rewarded to find out Lebanon was NOT a participant in the WAR which made my later delivery to them of medical supplies more understandable.

5. I never heard of USA involvement in the East Timor effort. That would have been a West Coast (22nd Air Force, Military Airlift Command) effort while I was in the East Coast or 21st Air Force Command. Cant give any details or opinion other than yes....the Air Force participates in everything it does.

6. Interesting you mention the EU ban against USAF flights. I do recall that is why we did not fly from Tel Aviv to Frankfurt which would have been our normal staging base. What I don't remember is where we loaded our cargo. Vivid memories of flying from Tel Aviv to Sicily to recycle the aircraft. Someone else took it from Sicily to whatever they did. I also forget where we loaded our medical supplies for Lebanon or where we landed after that. Of note re Lebanon flight: still strikes me as incredibly stupid that our 141 was given a coat of whitewash with just our tail number showing....no USAF or other designations for our flight to Lebanon. "That will fool the enemy" I thought.-----hmmmmm, all nice and white, did we fly back to Frankfurt that time? We might have, I just don't remember.

7. Landed only once in Lajes totally unrelated to the Yom Kipur effort. Spent the night there. Had my snorkeling gear with me but was told there was some kind of "black fish" in the waters near the airport that made diving unsafe there and no one was in the water.........so........I didn't snorkel there. I assume I "could have" but.....chose not to. Don't want to be more adventurous than I can handle, and knowledge is power, as ignorance is weakness. Don't know how cold the water was as a result. why bother??

8. You know about ignorance Matt? it includes refusal to incorporate new information.
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by MikeN » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:24 pm

Was this before or after your chicken farming?

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:33 am

MikeN wrote: Was this before or after your chicken farming?
.....or when he claimed to own a 15 unit apartment block. ...or when Bobbo claimed he had an army drill sergeant ( The USAF doesn't have drill instructors )
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=30687&p=695436&hilit=drill#p695436

As you guessed all Bobbo's claims are complete BS.
:lol:

2019 less 1973 = 46 years ago. Unless Bobbo is in his 80's you can already tell he is lying again.

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:43 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Landed only once in Lajes totally unrelated to the Yom Kipur effort.
All USAF cargo aircraft in Nickel Grass during the Yom Kippur landed at Portugal's Lajes Airfield as the EU ( except Portugal) had banned USAF flights over EU airspace. You didn't know this because you were never there.

Air Mobility Command Museum
The aerial resupply was conducted with an en route stop at Lajes Field in the Azores, as a staging post, approximately one half of the one-way distance of 6,450 nautical miles from the United States to Israel.
https://amcmuseum.org/history/operation-nickel-grass/


Air Force Magazine
With some arm-twisting by Kissinger, Portugal agreed to let the airlifters refuel at Lajes Field in the Azores islands,
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... rlift.aspx

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:41 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:43 am

Air Mobility Command Museum
The aerial resupply was conducted with an en route stop at Lajes Field in the Azores, as a staging post, approximately one half of the one-way distance of 6,450 nautical miles from the United States to Israel.
https://amcmuseum.org/history/operation-nickel-grass/
thanks for that, nice read. Love the part at first where the C-5 broke down. so.....as stated.....i don't remember where we loaded our cargo to go to Tel Aviv. Evidently..........we loaded up in the USA and flew to lajes for refueling.....but....we stayed for one crew rest period meaning in normal times another crew would have picked up the airplane to keep it in the air. The linked article only states USAF flights to Israel were banned, silent about the flights back. My only "clear" memory of Lajes is that is was an island and I couldn't go snorkeling. My clear memory of Tel Aviv is as all previously reported. No changes there.

Memories are best collected to as near the event as possible. I was 25 yo at the time. I often remember what the AF told us a few years before: you will never again have the trust and responsibility we are giving you today. Turned out to be true. IN CHARGE of the 8 Million $ aircraft, 1000's of miles from home on my own, crew of 7, passengers and cargo. Years later and a decade older, had to get permission to spend $50. Made me smile.
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:09 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:.i don't remember where we loaded our cargo to go to Tel Aviv.
How could you. you weren't there.

Nickel Grass loaded on munitions and one M60 tank in the USA. The staging base was Lajes because you don't leave your aircraft in Israel in the middle of a war where they are bombing the Israeli airfields.


Would you like to see a photo of the double bunks flown in and installed on Portugal's Lajes Field Air base for the USAF aircrews on the Nickel Grass airlift? Surely as "Captain Bobbo" you remember landing on a small Island in the Azores, right? :lol:

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:18 am

It was all a dream? No wonder I'm not getting retirement pay. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:32 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:18 am
It was all a dream? No wonder I'm not getting retirement pay. Thanks for clearing that up.
Well obviously it was a dream. Nickel Grass was staged from Lajes Field. You didn't know that. In fact there are quite a number of errors in your claims, that you slowly posted over time.

You once asked why I was interested in Nickel Grass. Well the USAF report on Nickel Grass shows the unique problem when its European allies would not let the USAF fly over its territory. The USA is currently threatening Iran and losing its European allies. So I read the reports.

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:16 am

Tom Palven?

Do you support John Brennan in his call for the USA to keep the peace treaties with Iran or do you support Donald Trump, Bibi Netanyahu and John Bolton trying to start a war with Iran?


John Brennan: Trump withdrawing from the Iran deal is 'madness'
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... is-madness

CIA director John Brennan warns Donald Trump tearing up Iran nuclear deal would be 'height of folly'
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-30/ ... ly/8081146

Answer in your own words without copying or linking to Fox News propaganda . :lol:
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:45 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:16 am
Tom Palven?

Do you support John Brennan in his call for the USA to keep the peace treaties with Iran or do you support Donald Trump, Bibi Netanyahu and John Bolton trying to start a war with Iran?
Brennan is a proven liar who has been trying to get rid of Trump from the git-go for his failure to fully embrace the CIA and its deep state agenda.

After getting rid of Trump he would probably go after Iran like the rest of his neocon brethren.

That's probably your gambit, too, since it doesn't square at all with your neocon desire to topple the governments of Syria, Venezuela, and North Korea; and bankrupt Turkey since the coup attempt there failed, and also bankrupt Russia a la Reagan, but this time, instead of forcing Russia to try to match US military spending, it's by trying to prevent Russia's building of gas and oil pipelines and placing restraints on Russia's potential customers with carrots and sanction sticks.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
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I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:13 am

Tom Palven wrote: Brennan is a proven liar
So you claim John Brennan is lying when he clearly stated Iran should be left alone under the 2015 peace deal Brennan helped put in place? Are you really that stupid?
Are you now saying you support Trump and John Bolton and not just Trump trying to start a war with Iran?
:lol:
Tom Palven wrote:After getting rid of Trump he (John Brennan) would probably go after Iran like the rest of his neocon brethren.
Why didn't John Brennen try declare war on Iran when he was still in power you complete idiot? Brennan is retired and can't start any wars.

Also, you do realise you are very retarded. You are claiming John Brennan is a neocon because he is against any war with Iran and helped establish the 2015 peace treaty and you are simultaneously claiming your hero Trump is a neocon because he wants a war with Iran


Are you always this stupid and totally confused? :lol: :lol:
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:14 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:32 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:18 am
It was all a dream? No wonder I'm not getting retirement pay. Thanks for clearing that up.
Well obviously it was a dream. Nickel Grass was staged from Lajes Field. You didn't know that. In fact there are quite a number of errors in your claims, that you slowly posted over time.

You once asked why I was interested in Nickel Grass. Well the USAF report on Nickel Grass shows the unique problem when its European allies would not let the USAF fly over its territory. The USA is currently threatening Iran and losing its European allies. So I read the reports.
I've admitted to one possible, now likely, error when saying that my stay in Lajes had nothing to do with nickleback. It probably was as you say part of the staging for the entire operation. All we cargo pilots are ever told is: Go to the base and fly this mission. The mission is: fly from point x to point y. We aren't told why or what the larger mission is called or anything else. We only find out what our cargo is when the loadmaster tells us. Heh, heh.......now that I think of it.......kinda like a RICO operation where all the conspirators are kept in the dark. Amusing.

But..........what other errors did I make? I sense one is that when I slept on a dirt pile in Sicily that I failed to find the bunk beds that were available in Lajes? Actually.....I kinda like the dirt bed, made me feel patriotic and stuff especially when grilled by a full bird as to why I was doing it. Good memories. Too bad, they aren't real because you just read something.
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:41 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote: I've admitted to one possible, now likely, error when saying that my stay in Lajes had nothing to do with nickleback.
The MAC designated the airlift "Nickel Grass", not "Nickelback".
bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote: It probably was as you say part of the staging for the entire operation.
Yes I already know it was the entire staging post. I also know that due to congestion that each pilot had to read out his manifest before arriving at LOD to keep turn arounds below three hours. The ordinance was 105mm howitzer shells and not 55mm as you previously posted. You previously claimed you slept on a mound of dirt at Lod which is impossible.

I grew up on RAAF bases.
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:00 am

Matt: what does "read out his manifest" mean?

IIRC we were given no directions regarding turn around times. Someone in Operations could well have had such guidelines, but not we pilots.

They were just cargo to me, not often if ever else carried. I assume usually done by ship??

I've never claimed anything re Lod except I landed there, got a medal, a rose, and a kiss on the cheek from a cute Stewardess, and left with a defective instrument that normally would have to be fixed before the next flight but I decided all on my own to fly out without bothering Command. Flew to Sicily for crew rest where I slept in the dirt because there were no quarters available and I was dead tired.

My part of the war effort that the USAF did not fight in.
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:18 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: what does "read out his manifest" mean?
The loadmaster presents the captain with a manifest of what the aircraft is carrying. (High fire risk, Low fire risk etc) As the ordinance was picked up and delivered to Lod to be used immediately, and, as there were severe congestion problems the captain radioed their loads to Lod just before landing. This allowed the materials needed immediately to be off loaded in the best area. The 105mm shells generally ended up being used within 12 hours of being unloaded.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: IIRC we were given no directions regarding turn around times.
Every aircraft was issued strict turn around times. (There is a table for all aircraft turnarounds). This is because there was severe congestion and a strict limit on the number of USA cargo aircraft allowed on the ground at any one time as Lod was in range of Soviet, Syrian and Egyptian fighter-bombers.

A C5 "peacetime" maximum load was raised from 100,000 pounds to 200,000 pounds during Nickel Grass and this was not fully taken into account when the turn around times were initially formulated. That's another reason there was congestion at Lod.

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:32 pm

In 4 years of flying my cargo aircraft........I never saw a manifest or a cargo description. At the first flight of a mission my aircraft assignment would include the cargo weight and often the number of pallets but that was it. The only exception was when carrying passengers which was a rare event. Then, the number of passengers and their nature (Political, military, medical, refugee) would be listed and maybe some verbal hint on briefing. Each flight of the airplane started with weight/fuel/flight time information for the Pilot in Command to confirm. The loadmasters would tell us if anything was interesting or if they had problems loading and needed a delay.

I never received a "strict turn around time." Every flight had scheduled turn around times that we were routinely expected to meet which was not an issue unless the airplane broke and needed to be fixed. That gave the base/ops commander a bad "On Time" record and they often tried to coax pilot to fly broken airplanes to the next stop so that their On Time Records, used for promotions, would look good. The turn around times "of note" would be those with a scheduled ground rest period of 12 hours. Wash, eat, sleep and be ready to go: sober. With only rare exceptions, the crews were ready to go, but not surprising if one member could not be found/did not report for awhile: usually had a found "something to do" and was asleep somewhere.

I think I just remembered we flew in "heavy" to Lod with extra fuel on-board to either eliminate or lessen the fuel demands on Airport Operations. Every flight different yet the same...........((Of note: that would be consistent with leaving Lod without enough fuel to fly all the way back to Lajes so stopping somewhere short makes excessively good sense. THAT along with I only landed at Lajes once means I started there but ended elsewhere? Always willing to accept my memory is not perfect...yet single type events like sleeping on dirt in Sicily have an inherent reliability? Would my log book count? I could ask 8 other people I know if they landed back at Lajes?))

The C-5 Wing Fiasco. Books have been written on it........... It also had the adjustable landing gear so that once on the ground it could lower the airplane a few feet in order to get level with standard loading docks. It often broke so was deliberately not used even when it would have been appropriate to do so. "Anything that kneels.....sucks." Very homophobic and racist we pilots.............but funny too?
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:07 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:In 4 years of flying my cargo aircraft........I never saw a manifest or a cargo description.
Operation Nickel Grass / The Two O’clock War/ Walter Boyne
The ground crews worked around this problem by setting up a series of
communications with the incoming aircrews to determine what type of cargo was
onboard before the aircraft landed. (Boyne, 2002:187)


Here is the manifest document for C-5 pilots in Nickel Grass. Column 2 is for itemising the cargo. If your C-5 is carrying soft bag charges for tanks like the M551(TTD) you really want to know, if you happen to be receiving hot flak and receive fire control warnings.
Manifest declaration C-5.JPG
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:25 am

I flew C-141 not C-5's that hardly ever flew, they were always broken. Pilots don't know {!#%@} about what they are hauling around.......it makes no difference at all to them as a pound is a pound. I just assume the "aircrews" that ground is coordinating with is the loadmasters who had direct radio contact with their counterparts from the aircraft. What is Hot Flack?.....the C-5 was too expensive to have crash or get shot down and was not sent into any area that was not considered "safe." The c-141 however trained for low level air drops in hostile areas and so forth and with 10 training missions including live drops, I never did it for real. We don't take evasive action to avoid the flack====I was never once briefed on such a thing. We are scheduled to only go where it is safe....even if as with Nickle Grass we had the escort of fighters with us just to keep us safe. No body cares what the C-5 guys do: they all graduated at the bottom of the class.....or just above the BUF drivers.
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:32 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:25 am
I flew C-141 not C-5's that hardly ever flew, they were always broken.
I will post the C-141 manifest declaration in the appendix. There were 51 C-5s and 177 C-141 flying in Nickel Grass.

Security issues also affected performance during the airlift campaign. The lack of
an alternate, the aircraft, and the long lines of supply trucks made the Lod airfield a
tempting target for the Arabs. To minimize exposure, only one C-5 was allowed on the
ground at a time. (Boyne, 2002:187)


On average the teams could empty a fully loaded C-141 in under an hour. They could do the same for a C-5 in less
than two hours. Once offloaded it was not uncommon for the ammunition to be fired by
an Israeli tank or for the missiles to be loaded on an aircraft less than three hours later.
(Boyne, 2002:188)

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:42 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote: What is Hot Flack?
Tracer ammunition in non-radar guided anti aircraft guns. It lets the gunners aim their shots.
Tracers.jpg
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:13 am

Never saw a tracer, never saw flack, never saw a manifest. .......... Never seen an appendix in this forum either.............
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:03 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Never saw a tracer, never saw flack, never saw a manifest. ..........
I never thought you did.

You don't seem to know anything about counter measures in a C-141.
c-141-flares.jpg
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:16 pm

I never heard of countermeasures. Nice picture though. I wonder who got paid how much for what?
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:55 pm

The notion of the C-141 using countermeasures to heat seeking missles like flare drops or chaff struck me as comical, but there's the picture of it, so I googled and found: http://www.theaviationzone.com/factsheets/c141.asp The ability to drop chaff was provided in the H/C-141 C model. Why I have no idea, but like the in flight refueling: just because we can. Should have added JATO at the same time?

anyway: I flew the A model that was out of existence all modified into B models years before the C models ever came along. Knowing nothing: I wager the chaff/flare capability was never used for real which does not mean flare drops for ceremonial services.

Like Equity Courts Matt: your understanding of certain basics is "out of time".....
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:08 am

Former CIA Director John Brennan was misinformed?

https://thehill.com/policy/national-sec ... e-was-more

:lol:
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:17 am

The Gang of Eight will be briefed about the Counterintelligence aspects of the Mueller probe ... even though Nunes is still a member and a massive ounterintelligence risk himself.
He should send his mom instead ... or at least his cow.

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:23 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:09 am
Ron Paul's Neocon Watch keeps an eye on what John Bolton and other real-life monsters are doing:
Bolton's latest neocon antics:
https://news.antiwar.com/2019/03/29/bol ... venezuela/

https://www.rt.com/news/455115-venezuel ... es-bolton/
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:18 pm

OK.....you have named and connected your dots here. You could say more, but you made the mimimum effort here. I am NOT interested in Ron Paul or Bolton as both are idiots and politicians as well as necocons and libertards.....but...I am very interested in Venezuela, so I'll give it a quick scan.

Its still not clear to me how a drop in oil prices and fraud can ruin an economy as thoroughly as is happening in Venezuela right now. A good real life object lesson. We should all be paying more attention to it than we are. .................. and not to be neo-con about it, but so far, I've been thinking its a justifiable if not valid/necessary example of a situation USA should take military action to enforce free and fair democracies in "our" hemisphere. In and Out....no staying too long.
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