Neocon Watch

Talk, debate, discussion, observations, etc... regarding episodes of MonsterTalk.
Tom Palven
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:37 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:09 am
What about not war at all but economic penalties for percieved national interests??...........or in your mind is that the same as war?

................and what "should" the USA do regarding Cuban/Russian/Chinese activities in South America?.........Let them have their way or is anything else......."war?"
What Jefferson said back in the day still stands as the best policy:

"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations — entangling alliances with none." --THOMAS JEFFERSON

McDonalds, Kentucky Fried Chicken, oil companies, and other businesses should invest all they want to anywhere they want to, and Bolton, Pompeo, Elliot Abrams, and the rest of the evil deep state control freaks should stay the fvck out of it.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by landrew » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:41 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:37 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:09 am
What about not war at all but economic penalties for percieved national interests??...........or in your mind is that the same as war?

................and what "should" the USA do regarding Cuban/Russian/Chinese activities in South America?.........Let them have their way or is anything else......."war?"
What Jefferson said back in the day still stands as the best policy:

"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations — entangling alliances with none." --THOMAS JEFFERSON

McDonalds, Kentucky Fried Chicken, oil companies, and other businesses should invest all they want to anywhere they want to, and Bolton, Pompeo, Elliot Abrams, and the rest of the evil deep state control freaks should stay the fvck out of it.
And they did. Plenty of American companies helped nazi germany rise to power.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:54 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:41 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:37 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:09 am
What about not war at all but economic penalties for percieved national interests??...........or in your mind is that the same as war?

................and what "should" the USA do regarding Cuban/Russian/Chinese activities in South America?.........Let them have their way or is anything else......."war?"
What Jefferson said back in the day still stands as the best policy:

"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations — entangling alliances with none." --THOMAS JEFFERSON

McDonalds, Kentucky Fried Chicken, oil companies, and other businesses should invest all they want to anywhere they want to, and Bolton, Pompeo, Elliot Abrams, and the rest of the evil deep state control freaks should stay the fvck out of it.
And they did. Plenty of American companies helped nazi germany rise to power.
Which private US companies supported or campaigned for Hitler?

Bolton, Abrams, et al would have fit right in with Goebbels and the rest of the Nazi deep state, not that is that especially relevant, either.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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landrew
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by landrew » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:59 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:54 pm
landrew wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:41 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:37 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:09 am
What about not war at all but economic penalties for percieved national interests??...........or in your mind is that the same as war?

................and what "should" the USA do regarding Cuban/Russian/Chinese activities in South America?.........Let them have their way or is anything else......."war?"
What Jefferson said back in the day still stands as the best policy:

"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations — entangling alliances with none." --THOMAS JEFFERSON

McDonalds, Kentucky Fried Chicken, oil companies, and other businesses should invest all they want to anywhere they want to, and Bolton, Pompeo, Elliot Abrams, and the rest of the evil deep state control freaks should stay the fvck out of it.
And they did. Plenty of American companies helped nazi germany rise to power.
Which private US companies supported or campaigned for Hitler?

Bolton, Abrams, et al would have fit right in with Goebbels and the rest of the Nazi deep state, not that is that especially relevant, either.
No charge this time, but I can't do all your research for you:
https://www.toptenz.net/top-10-american ... -nazis.php
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:55 pm

TP: got anything relevant or is it catch phrases all the way down?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:56 pm

Japanese shipowner contradicts Trump and his neocon warmonger henchmen:
https://news.antiwar.com/2019/06/14/jap ... er-attack/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:57 am

Will Netanyahu and the neocon warmongers finally get their Shock and Awe on Iran?

Article by Eric Margolis:
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2019/06/eri ... -the-gulf/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:13 am

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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scrmbldggs
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:14 am

Iran is not without issues and problems, and actions, but those guys currently involved are really not the ones who should be dealing with that.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:26 pm

.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:42 am

Something to bear in mind for those interested in watching neocons:
https://news.antiwar.com/2019/07/02/bol ... -election/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:18 am

You Are Being Trolled says Dmitry Orlov

"...US aircraft battle groups are steaming toward North Korea.

Now it's about Venezuela...

Now i's about Iran...
https://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2019/06/ ... .html#more
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:14 am

With farcical "reasoning," the neocons are frog-marching the US to Shock and Awe on Iran (This kind of one-sided slaughter cannot properly be called "war.")
https://original.antiwar.com/paul/2019/ ... r-on-iran/

"Secretary Pompeo Tweeted yesterday the exact kind of dishonest hysterics used to terrify many Americans into supporting an Iraq attack 13 years ago:

''Iran’s regime, armed with nuclear weapons, would pose an even greater danger to the world.' ”
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:31 am

CIA-orchestrated coups haven't been going well of late. Central Command failed to overthrow President Erdogan, the democratically-elected leader of Turkey a few years ago, and Southern Command is still having trouble trying to overthrow President Maduro in Venezuela.

If you have to blame someone for these failures, why not blame Iran?
https://news.antiwar.com/2019/07/11/soc ... me-change/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:33 am

Trump ruined the Iran nuclear deal to spite Obama, according to Russia Today, which I find a lot more credible than The Associated Press.
https://www.rt.com/news/464119-trump-ir ... r-deal-uk/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by landrew » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:55 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:33 am
Trump ruined the Iran nuclear deal to spite Obama, according to Russia Today, which I find a lot more credible than The Associated Press.
https://www.rt.com/news/464119-trump-ir ... r-deal-uk/
Everything he's ever done shows us he only cares about taking down his opponents. That's why he has no friends, only business associates and former victims.
The man is an open book.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:28 am

More nails in the neocon deep state coffin?
https://www.globalresearch.ca/shifting- ... nt/5683458

Is it possible that trying to overthrow the democratically-elected Erdogan regime was a mistake?

Is it possible hat trying to overthrow the democratically-elected government of Maduro is a mistake?

Is it possible that the heyday of the CIA and MI6 (the last vestige of the British Empire) deep state alliance, is over?

Yes, it's possible, and it's possible and this corresponds to what's going on with US economic bankruptcy, its deep state sanctions on everyone, and panic by Bolton, Pompeo, Elliot Abrams, and other neocons.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:28 am

Erdogan is a theocratic, authoritarian scumbag. And he is being blackmailed by Putin.
Calling him democratically elected is a looong stretch, given the number of opposition politicians and journalists he had arrested before his last election.

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:15 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:28 am
Erdogan is a theocratic, authoritarian scumbag. And he is being blackmailed by Putin.
Calling him democratically elected is a looong stretch, given the number of opposition politicians and journalists he had arrested before his last election.
Would you allow that Erdogan was more democratically-elected than US allies King Salman of Saudi Arabia and General al-Sisi of Egypt?

Are they not scumbags of the First Order?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:19 pm

EM== Now +3, one run after another. Opposition seems to be playing a different game entirely.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:18 pm

Tom

That is a nice list of psychopaths.

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:53 am

The Trump Regime, Congress, the MIC, and the rest of the US deep state seem to be in a bit of a quandary, and, of course, it's Obama's fault. (Fwiw, I think this is the first time I've ever written the word "quandary"):
https://news.antiwar.com/2019/07/16/tru ... -35-sales/

It's a conundrum. :mrgreen:
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:27 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:53 am
The Trump Regime, Congress, the MIC, and the rest of the US deep state seem to be in a bit of a quandary, and, of course, it's Obama's fault. (Fwiw, I think this is the first time I've ever written the word "quandary"):
https://news.antiwar.com/2019/07/16/tru ... -35-sales/

It's a conundrum. :mrgreen:
More of the same, from Aljazeera, slightly updated:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/07/ ... 23465.html
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:23 am

I dont' see any quandary. Nor conundrum. Their purpose and choices are pretty clear. They want personal power and prestige before anything else.

What else is new?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:38 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:23 am
What else is new?
Are Libertarians the New Neocons?
Is Daniel McAdams fixin' to drop the libertarian label?
http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archive ... w-neocons/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:07 am

If you have Libertarian in the title, why would you need to have it in the substance?

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Re: Neocon Watch

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:24 pm

I'm essentially reposting the substance of a previous post here for those who may be interested, and also as a repository in case the moderator at Libertarians Forum deletes it, or modifies it as he did my last post:

SkyChief wrote yesterday at 5:27 pm:

The fact that CATO is hosting "regime-change" conferences was very alarming to me as I'm sure it is alarming to most libertarians.

Regime-changes in foreign countries is intervention, and OPPOSITE of fundamental libertarian ideology.


Sky,
My heart sincerely goes out to you for your advocacy of Olde Tyme Libertaranism.

This is something I posted over at Skeptic.com a few days ago that you may find interesting:

"I went to Wikipedia to copy the definitions of neoliberal and classical liberal, only to find that they are now one-in-the-same, that neoliberal no longer implies socialist.

"Neoliberalism or neo-liberalism[1] is the 20th-century resurgence of 19th-century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism and free market capitalism.[2]:7[3] While it is most often associated with such ideas, the defining features of neoliberalism in both thought and practice have been the subject of substantial scholarly discourse.[4] These ideas include economic liberalization policies such as privatization, austerity, deregulation, free trade[5] and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society.[13] These market-based ideas and the policies they inspired constitute a paradigm shift away from the post-war Keynesian consensus which lasted from 1945 to 1980."[14][15]

"The definition and usage of the term have changed over time.[7] As an economic philosophy, neoliberalism emerged among European liberal scholars in the 1930s as they attempted to trace a so-called "third" or "middle" way between the conflicting philosophies of classical liberalism and socialist planning.[25]:14–15 The impetus for this development arose from a desire to avoid repeating the economic failures of the early 1930s, which neoliberals mostly blamed on the economic policy of classical liberalism. In the decades that followed, the use of the term "neoliberal" tended to refer to theories that diverged from the more laissez-faire doctrine of classical liberalism and which promoted instead a market economy under the guidance and rules of a strong state, a model which came to be known as the social market economy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

Seems odd, but apparently I can refer to myself as a classical liberal, a neoliberal or both, and Bernie Sanders is just a plain, garden-variety liberal."


Although there are still a few solid old-time libertarians out there like Jacob Hornberger, I now find myself agreeing more consistently with what classical liberal Steven Pinker is saying than what I hear some so-called "libertarians" saying, and it's possible that you might, too. Even our moderator here is posting apologies for interventionism rather than championing nonintervention.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot