Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Who else knows what we know, Jerry?
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Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:45 am

...to avoid a deep state conspiracy?
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... t-him.html
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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by OutOfBreath » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:23 am

Trump is under pressure all right, so he's reaching for some cheap patriotism and appearance of getting-things-done. The pressure is because of the investigations into his semi and fullblown crookedness and that hes trying to deliver windowdressing for all the supporters he gave bamboozled into believing he can do any of the things he boasts.

That's not "deep state". Hes just feeling the heat of the pandering crook.

Peace
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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by Gord » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:31 pm

He promised Melanchovies a nice trip for Christmas, and this is what she got.
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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:02 pm

If Trump knew of a plot, he would scream it from the rafters - there is no way he would keep it secret.
Heck, he can't even keep his imagined coups secret.

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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:19 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:23 am
That's not "deep state". Hes just feeling the heat of the pandering crook.
Imho he's pandering to the "deep state" which includes permanent unelected top level neoconservative Pentagon generals and State Dept. officials who act as board of directors, not actually running CENTCOM, the rest of the military, or the 17 secret police agencies, but directly or indirectly appointing the people who do, and also controlling the MIC with defense contracts, which in turn controls Congress through campaign donations.

Trump is Commander-in-Chief in name only, with just enough power to complicate and perhaps stall deep state plans for Syria, Afghanistan, and the rest of the Mid-East, to screw up relations with China, insist on a ridiculous border wall, and so on.

One positive note is that Trump's efforts may allow North and South Korea to reconcile, despite the wishes of the deep state.


Let me add that while Reagan picked deep state former CIA Director Bush 43 as his VP, and simple-minded Dubya was in lockstep with the deep state, Obama tried to disobey the deep state without success with regard to controlling CENTCOM (http://www.centcom.mil/), and Trump is not having much luck either.

So, if the Commander-in-Chief is not controlling CENTCOM, who is giving CENTCOM its marching orders? Could it be Sata..? No, nix that.

Could it be the deep state?

However, this is just a matter of satisfying curiosity, (like Why did the Jacksonville Jaguars recently give Blake Bortles a $54 million 3-year contract extension?)

Even if all of the above is true, it seems unlikely that a majority of people in the US would give a damn.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:51 am

OutOfBreath wrote:That's not "deep state". Hes just feeling the heat of the pandering crook.
Tom Palven wrote: he's pandering to the "deep state" which includes permanent unelected top level neoconservative Pentagon generals and State Dept. officials who act as board of directors,
Shows us any evidence you have for the Fox News "Deep State" conspiracy?

You don't have any do you? You simply spam Sean Hannity's crap on our forum.
hannity deep state 6.jpg
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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by TJrandom » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:12 am

Tom, saying Deep State a hundred - nay, a thousand times doesn’t create one. Give it up. Thank me later. ;)

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Trump's Trip to Iraq

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:29 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:51 am

Show us any evidence you have for the "Deep State."

You don't have any do you?

There's no smoking gun, but a lot of circumstantial evidence and dots that connect that I've provided over and over again, and If what I say sounds like what Hannity says, you would know better than I, because I've never once watched his tv show and haven't checked on his radio talking points as a "know your enemy" measure in, literally, years.

The "deep state," imvho, includes permanent unelected top level neoconservative Pentagon generals and State Dept. officials who act as board of directors (or as you said, Mr. Ellard, sir, an Intelligence community coordination committee) not actually running CENTCOM or the rest of the military, but directly or indirectly appointing the people who do, and also controlling the MIC with defense contracts, which in turn controls Congress through campaign donations.

Trump is Commander-in-Chief in name only, with just enough power to complicate and perhaps stall deep state plans for Syria, the rest of the Mid-East and Afghanistan; to screw up relations with China; insist on a ridiculous border wall; and so on.

But, if Commander-in-Chief Trump is unable to control CENTCOM, who is giving CENTCOM its marching orders?
http://www.centcom.mil/

Could it be the deep state, Mr. Ellard, sir?


:lol: :mrgreen: :roll: :lol: :mrgreen:
:mrgreen: :lol: :mrgreen: :roll: :lol:
:roll: :mrgreen: :roll: :lol: :mrgreen:
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:39 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Show us any evidence you have for the "Deep State." You don't have any do you?
Tom Palven wrote:There's no smoking gun, but a lot of circumstantial evidence
There is no circumstantial evidence.

Fox News needs a general "boogeyman" to blame people it does not like without evidence. Fox News uses the "Deep State" conspiracy today, in the same way people used "pinko" and "commie" in the 50's.

As you are a right-wing extremist, with an IQ of 70, who watches Fox and supports Trump, you simply copy Fox propaganda onto our fact based forum. You cannot even define what your "Deep State" conspiracy is, let alone supply any evidence.

Go post your Fox propaganda crap on Stormfront, with your friends
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Trump's Trip to Iraq

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:35 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:39 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:Show us any evidence you have for the "Deep State." You don't have any do you?
Tom Palven wrote:There's no smoking gun, but a lot of circumstantial evidence
There is no circumstantial evidence.

1. Fox News needs a general "boogeyman" to blame people it does not like without evidence. Fox News uses the "Deep State" conspiracy today, in the same way people used "pinko" and "commie" in the 50's.

2. As you are a right-wing extremist, with an IQ of 70, who watches Fox and supports Trump, you simply copy Fox propaganda onto our fact based forum. You cannot even define what your "Deep State" conspiracy is, let alone supply any evidence.

3. Go post your Fox propaganda crap on Stormfront, with your friends
:lol: :lol: :lol:
You can't show me any evidence, circumstantial or otherwise to indicate any of your three charges are have any merit whatsoever, because there isn't any.

And you can't link me to Stormfront in any possible way because I've never heard of Stormfront except in your posts, a-hole.

You are batting 1.000, which even for you is pretty special. Nothing, whatsoever, in your post is true. :lol:

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Tom Palven is an idiot 3

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:03 am

Tom Palven wrote:You can't show me any evidence, circumstantial or otherwise to indicate any of your three charges are have any merit whatsoever, because there isn't any.
I'm not claiming Fox News' "Deep State" conspiracy propaganda is real. You are are claiming that and keep spamming pro-Trump "Deep State" propaganda on our fasct based forum.
Tom Palven wrote:And you can't link me to Stormfront in any possible way
....other than the holocaust deniers from Stormfront and yourself simultaneously posting "Hitler was a socialist and thus all socialists are evil" simultaneously on our forum.

Why were you spamming the holocaust denial rubbish on our forum?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

viewtopic.php?f=72&t=29793&p=671803&hil ... er#p671803
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=27640&p=669026&hil ... er#p669026
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=27640&p=669026&hil ... er#p669198

Go back to post with your friends at Stormfront.

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Pyrrho, Can You Help?

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:24 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:03 am
Tom Palven wrote:You can't show me any evidence, circumstantial or otherwise to indicate any of your three charges are have any merit whatsoever, because there isn't any.
I'm not claiming Fox News' "Deep State" conspiracy propaganda is real. You are are claiming that and keep spamming pro-Trump "Deep State" propaganda on our fasct based forum.
Tom Palven wrote:And you can't link me to Stormfront in any possible way
....other than the holocaust deniers from Stormfront and yourself simultaneously posting "Hitler was a socialist and thus all socialists are evil" simultaneously on our forum.

Why were you spamming the holocaust denial rubbish on our forum?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

viewtopic.php?f=72&t=29793&p=671803&hil ... er#p671803
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=27640&p=669026&hil ... er#p669026
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=27640&p=669026&hil ... er#p669198

Go back to post with your friends at Stormfront.
What crap. I don't when I've been to the Holocaust Denial thread, if ever.

I ask Pyrrho right now, is it possible to tell us when, if ever, I have viewed the Holocaust thread?

You have permission to make this information public here.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:44 am

Tom Palven wrote:What crap. I don't when I've been to the Holocaust Denial thread, if ever.
Below are your posts in the general forum, stating Hitler was a socialist and all socialists are therefore evil. You even tried to pretend the Nazi Party was the Labor Party

viewtopic.php?f=72&t=29793&p=671803&hil ... er#p671803
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=27640&p=669026&hil ... er#p669026
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=27640&p=669026&hil ... er#p669198

Why did you spread this holocaust denial propaganda crap on our forum, in the general threads, while the other holocaust deniers were posting the same propaganda in the anti-holocaust denial subforum, at the same time? :lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29558

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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:33 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:19 pm
OutOfBreath wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:23 am
That's not "deep state". Hes just feeling the heat of the pandering crook.
Imho he's pandering to the "deep state" which includes permanent unelected top level neoconservative Pentagon generals and State Dept. officials who act as board of directors, not actually running CENTCOM, the rest of the military, or the 17 secret police agencies, but directly or indirectly appointing the people who do, and also controlling the MIC with defense contracts, which in turn controls Congress through campaign donations.
Thats actually quite an amalgam of bad thinking/characterizations/labels. aka: Woo/Conspiracy Theory.

It all starts with WORDS. Defind Deep State any way you want to, stick with that definition, and see if anything you think makes sense? I'll parse...waiting for the soup to cool before I mop it up from the floor...........

1. Imho he's pandering to the "deep state" /// OK....I buy that Trump is pandering to "X". Almost everyone panders to something now and then. And I'm OK with calling one example of such pandering "the Deep State." Thats valid depending on how you define Deep State.

2. which includes permanent unelected top level neoconservative Pentagon generals /// Ok....that is a fair start, not a definition, but inching towards one with what it includes. That is a good start except for the inclusion of "unelected". Conspiracists like to inject that word/concept a lot. but they never do much with it. Pure dog whistle.....you know dogwhistel right? Unthinking salavary response.

3. and State Dept. officials //// now that is a curious combo plate there. The two groups mostly at odds with one another. The military often called the failure of diplomacy and what not?

4. who act as board of directors, /// Really? Ha, ha........You do know a board of directors is "elected".....but that hardly matters when you are drooling to effect

5. not actually running CENTCOM, the rest of the military, or the 17 secret police agencies,///so they aren't doing what Board Members actually do

6. but directly or indirectly appointing the people who do, /// Thats a nice conflation there. You are right that Boards appoint people, and we KNOW THIS, by their track record of actually appointing people. can you name a single example of this? aka: What Pentagon General or State Department Official or plurals of either of the foregoing appointed who to what position? You have the equation a bit backwards as it is Generals and State Department Officials who get appointed. They only select their on in channel underlings. Not the same thing at all.

7. and also controlling the MIC with defense contracts, which in turn controls Congress through campaign donations. //// Yeah..."control" is way too strong a word. I'd agree with influence though. Mostly what I see above is "unknown/unidentified/undefined" people occupying "unknown/unidentified/undefined" positions while other "unknown/unidentified/undefined" people do "unknown/unidentified/undefined" things. I think this is short handedly referred to as "nuttery."

A whole lot of fuzzy incoherent thinking on display with such a statement. Good thing, everything we write is a first draft. gives us time to rethink and redraft. Or not.
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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:40 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:19 pm
OutOfBreath wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:23 am
That's not "deep state". Hes just feeling the heat of the pandering crook.
Imho he's pandering to the "deep state" which includes permanent unelected top level neoconservative Pentagon generals and State Dept. officials who act as board of directors, not actually running CENTCOM, the rest of the military, or the 17 secret police agencies, but directly or indirectly appointing the people who do, and also controlling the MIC with defense contracts, which in turn controls Congress through campaign donations.

Trump is Commander-in-Chief in name only, with just enough power to complicate and perhaps stall deep state plans for Syria, Afghanistan, and the rest of the Mid-East, to screw up relations with China, insist on a ridiculous border wall, and so on.

One positive note is that Trump's efforts may allow North and South Korea to reconcile, despite the wishes of the deep state.


Let me add that while Reagan picked deep state former CIA Director Bush 43 as his VP, and simple-minded Dubya was in lockstep with the deep state, Obama tried to disobey the deep state without success with regard to controlling CENTCOM (http://www.centcom.mil/), and Trump is not having much luck either.

So, if the Commander-in-Chief is not controlling CENTCOM, who is giving CENTCOM its marching orders? Could it be Sata..? No, nix that.

Could it be the deep state?

However, this is just a matter of satisfying curiosity, (like Why did the Jacksonville Jaguars recently give Blake Bortles a $54 million 3-year contract extension?)

Even if all of the above is true, it seems unlikely that a majority of people in the US would give a damn.
Tom, respectfully, that is all unfounded conspiracy babble. Casting some aspect of the US military like "the elders of zion" with "evil motives" etc.
In the good old american tradition, the president have a lot of power, but not all the power. (more than most democratic leaders actually) Certainly there are people in the US having more influence than others over US policy and whatnot. But that's not the military people (although they did have a lot more influence back in the day), but the money people. The infamous citizens united supreme court decision has {!#%@} you over by declaring every man's vote counts as much as he can pay for it. What ails america is not a hidden conspiracy, it's flagrantly out in the open.

This whole "they're making wars to make money on weapons" BS should stop, Tom.

Peace
Dan
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"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:48 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:40 am
What ails america is not a hidden conspiracy, it's flagrantly out in the open.
Yea, verily: JUST LOOK.

So few do.
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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:43 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:40 am

Tom, respectfully, that is all unfounded conspiracy babble...

This whole "they're making wars to make money on weapons" BS should stop, Tom.

Peace
Dan

Dan, read any one of these books:

1. Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace by Gore Vidal

2. Swords into Plowshares by Ron Paul

3. Any book by William Blum...

..and watch this short video clip of 2-term US President and Five-Star General Dwight Eisenhower's farewell address, and then tell me that you are sure about your above statement.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mi ... &FORM=VIRE

If you've already done so, then we've looked at the evidence and simply disagree at this time.

Peace,
Tom
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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:03 am

Isn't it OBVIOUS that "some" are motivated just as TP posts, but that is not "all" that it takes to have a war and buy weapons as OOB posts?

Its called: juggling more than one ball.

................................................................................................ it takes practice. If you aren't practicing: you are irrelevant.
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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:15 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:43 am
Dan, read any one of these books:

1. Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace by Gore Vidal

2. Swords into Plowshares by Ron Paul

3. Any book by William Blum...

..and watch this short video clip of 2-term US President and Five-Star General Dwight Eisenhower's farewell address, and then tell me that you are sure about your above statement.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mi ... &FORM=VIRE

If you've already done so, then we've looked at the evidence and simply disagree at this time.

Peace,
Tom
Tom, I have no illusions about international power politics, and have read quite a bit literature from american peace activists (Zinn etc).

That doesnt make your simplistic angle any less wrong, unfortunately. The ills are not covert, but very much open and no real secret. No "secret cabal" is needed to make sense of this. The US follows it's interests as defined by the influential players in america, just as Russia follows theirs and Saudi theirs and so on. In democratic countries, the players are in the open and often represents some aspect of the voting public. The US are hobbling it's own democratic credentials by increasingly letting money decide politics overtly and directly. But that is in tune with the american sense of being entitled to keep your howevergotten gains, minimal state intervention on behalf of the worse off, having as many guns as you damn like...

You should let go of the 60-year old adress to a post-war situation where the economy was still geared to massive military production, that has since declined by a great deal. That's conspiracy-think cherry-picking I'm afraid.

PS: I'm still trying to figure out your various support or non-mention of Russia on issues you lambast the US for. Cut down on the RT/Fox feed maybe?

Peace
Dan
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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:21 am

Ha, hal..........................40 changed to 60. Took my comment all away.

Still remaining: economy geared to war. Ain't it interesting how opinions don't change even when the supporting facts do?

................................................................................................ How does THAT happen?
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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:36 pm

For context about the Eisenhower warning, here's graphs on US military spending as share of gdp.
Roughly speaking it consumed 10% of the GDP in 1960, versus a pretty stable 5% in recent decades.
https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/sp ... ing_Spikes

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:41 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:36 pm
For context about the Eisenhower warning, here's graphs on US military spending as share of gdp.
Roughly speaking it consumed 10% of the GDP in 1960, versus a pretty stable 5% in recent decades.
https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/sp ... ing_Spikes

Peace
Dan

It is my understanding that US government consumption expenditures (spending) , including military expenditures, now at probably over a trillion dollars annually when black budgets are included, are now counted as part of the gross domestic product.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product

While I have admittedly not researched this enough, it seems very unlikely that everything including money spent building bridges to nowhere, impeding the building of factories and pipelines, or destroying foreign countries, was counted as positive economic growth back in Eisenhower's day.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:33 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:41 pm
OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:36 pm
For context about the Eisenhower warning, here's graphs on US military spending as share of gdp.
Roughly speaking it consumed 10% of the GDP in 1960, versus a pretty stable 5% in recent decades.
https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/sp ... ing_Spikes

Peace
Dan

It is my understanding that US government consumption expenditures (spending) , including military expenditures, now at probably over a trillion dollars annually when black budgets are included, are now counted as part of the gross domestic product.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product

While I have admittedly not researched this enough, it seems very unlikely that everything including money spent building bridges to nowhere, impeding the building of factories and pipelines, or destroying foreign countries, was counted as positive economic growth back in Eisenhower's day.
That is exactly what gdp is. Then and now. Any spending on anything counts. The usefulness is not a factor.(and indeed how would you measure that anyway)So no difference there between 1960 and now. Or if anything it was even higher then if less stuff were counted somehow.

I find that stating it as % of gdp is useful, as it allows for the inflation and relative size of the economy (including population) to be considered. If so, the us spends far less (about half) on its military now than in 1960 relatively speaking.

Peace
Dan
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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:58 pm

My favorite about gdp is how useless it is. The example: rebuilding after a natural disaster. All those costs are added to the gdp "as if" you were adding something to the economy rather than only replacing something that was destroyed. A real "cost" rather than an addition. BUT, contra, just a good example of how anything, any label, only covers up greater complexity/reality: there are winners and losers in every issue. In GDP, the makers of glass and plywood are very productive along with their supply chains and installers. Its just the people that lose their homes that lose.

Most issues are like this. Labeled by who wins or who loses rather than an appreciation of the relationship.

Just look.
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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:59 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:36 pm
For context about the Eisenhower warning, here's graphs on US military spending as share of gdp.
Roughly speaking it consumed 10% of the GDP in 1960, versus a pretty stable 5% in recent decades.
https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/sp ... ing_Spikes
Dan got it in seconds. In the 1960's the USA has over 30,000 nukes ready to go. Military expenditure was 8.7% of GDP. We then had SALT1, SALT2, START and all the limitation treaties reducing nukes "ready to go" to 2,700. USA military spending in now only 3.6% of GDP.

Now lets look at actual active duty members. It's reducing as high tech weapons replaces manpower.
USA military size.jpg
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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:31 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:58 pm
My favorite about gdp is how useless it is. The example: rebuilding after a natural disaster. All those costs are added to the gdp "as if" you were adding something to the economy rather than only replacing something that was destroyed.
Exactly.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Tom Palven and Bobbo are idiots

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:15 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:58 pm
My favorite about gdp is how useless it is. The example: rebuilding after a natural disaster. All those costs are added to the gdp "as if" you were adding something to the economy rather than only replacing something that was destroyed.
Tom Palven wrote: Exactly.
What complete nonsense. :lol: :lol: :lol:
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/bound ... minal-gdp/

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Trump's Trip to Iraq

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:43 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:15 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:58 pm
My favorite about gdp is how useless it is. The example: rebuilding after a natural disaster. All those costs are added to the gdp "as if" you were adding something to the economy rather than only replacing something that was destroyed.
Tom Palven wrote: Exactly.
What complete nonsense. :lol: :lol: :lol:
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/bound ... minal-gdp/
This is from your link:

"The Gross domestic Product (GDP) is the market value of all final goods and services produced within a country in a given period of time. The GDP is the officially recognized totals."

That is exactly what we agree with while observing that the bottom line is rather useless, not unlike you.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:50 am

Tom Palven wrote:This is from your link:

"The Gross domestic Product (GDP) is the market value of all final goods and services produced within a country in a given period of time. The GDP is the officially recognized totals."
Now apply that calculation to Bobbo's hilarious claim. Does production reduce with substitution? Is all production in GDP capital assets?
Bobbo the pragmatist wrote:The example: rebuilding after a natural disaster. All those costs are added to the gdp "as if" you were adding something to the economy rather than only replacing something that was destroyed.
Remember, I studied economics at university. You lied about studying economics. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Trump's Trip to Iraq

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:10 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:50 am
Remember, I studied economics at university. You lied about studying economics. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Of course. You studied everything and know everything; you've told us that time and time again, but as Josh Billings said, "It's better to know nothing than to know what ain't so."

Bobbo and I agree with your link and you don't. :mrgreen:
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:11 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:43 am

"The Gross domestic Product (GDP) is the market value of all final goods and services produced within a country in a given period of time. The GDP is the officially recognized totals."

That is exactly what we agree with while observing that the bottom line is rather useless, not unlike you.
Thanks TP. Thats it exactly. To frame it in other words........what the gdp is measuring is interim steps rather than the final effect. Its measuring inputs rather than results. Process rather than net effects. Its measuring "capacity to produce" rather than a net worth.

Matt is a "smart guy" but he appears to get hung up on his various issues and refuses to see any other point of view. The boy is bent. Note to YOU: The easiest way to get bent is to never answer direct questions.......even if just for yourself. Never moderate/correct/apologize for a "first idea" that you have. It can make you very inflexible and boring turning a quick wit into a Thick Stick.

Just look.
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:55 am

Tom Palven wrote:Bobbo and I agree with your link and you don't.
You didn't read my link at all. That's why you didn't answer my simple questions about calculating GDP.

Is all production in calculating GDP about capital assets? No.

Does GDP change if one form of production is substituted for another? No.

Tom Palven wrote:"Although it was not required reading in my economics courses at Cornell, "
You studied forest management at a college and never studied economics. You simply tell lies. :lol: :lol: :lol:
http://www.discussionworldforum.com/sho ... php?t=4854

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Trump's Trip to Iraq

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:09 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:55 am
Tom Palven wrote:Bobbo and I agree with your link and you don't.
You didn't read my link at all. That's why you didn't answer my simple questions about calculating GDP.

Is all production in calculating GDP about capital assets? No.

Does GDP change if one form of production is substituted for another? No.

Tom Palven wrote:"Although it was not required reading in my economics courses at Cornell, "
You studied forest management at a college and never studied economics. You simply tell lies. :lol: :lol: :lol:
http://www.discussionworldforum.com/sho ... php?t=4854
Gee, where have I heard all this crap before?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:12 am

Tom Palven wrote: Gee, where have I heard all this crap before?
Reading your own posts. :lol:

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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by OutOfBreath » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:56 am

I thought I'd try to carefully explain the details, but I found a website that puts my thoghts on gdp simple and short:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/i ... ountry.asp
The link wrote: The GDP or gross domestic product of a country provides a measure of the monetary value of the goods and services that country produces in a specific year. This is an important statistic that indicates whether an economy is growing or contracting.
...
While GDP is a convenient way to get an idea about the state of an economy, it is by no means a perfect approach. One criticism that has been leveled is that there is no accounting for activities that are not part of the legalized economy... Another criticism is that some activities that provide value are not factored into GDP.
GDP is not useless, but it cant be used for what it's not. It measures size of the economy, and in some ways also measure how "modern" the economy is, since modern economies are more monetized. Thus I wanted to see military spending relative to GDP as a benchmark to how big a share of the economy it was taking.

I agree that GDP doesnt say anything about "usefulness" or distribution of incomes or whatever. But it's a fair proxy for the gross size of the economy. Anyway, this is all a big sidetrack, so perhaps we can leave the GDP be for now. The point was simply, the US used to spend a lot more of it's resources on the military than it does now. Which makes sense given the drastically reduced number of nukes, and no big draft war as in the 50s (Korea) and 60s (Vietnam).

Peace
Dan
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"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:21 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:56 am
The point was simply, the US used to spend a lot more of it's resources on the military than it does now.
At over $20 trillion in debt, does the US actually have any resources?

I have to leave and will continue this a little later.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:13 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:56 am

GDP is not useless, but it cant be used for what it's not. It measures size of the economy, and in some ways also measure how "modern" the economy is, since modern economies are more monetized. Thus I wanted to see military spending relative to GDP as a benchmark to how big a share of the economy it was taking.

I agree that GDP doesnt say anything about "usefulness" or distribution of incomes or whatever. But it's a fair proxy for the gross size of the economy.
Whats that term for "maverick" economists that do fun studies about some little aspect of the economy? All their names and books and study names escape me at the moment but one of them made a point that keeping track of the price of beer or a hamburger and the number sold in a country as a much more accurate measure of "production" than gdp ever could be.

Ha, ha..........ALL OUR NUMBERS ARE PHONY. Unemployment, Stock Market, Tax Revenue.......etc. All a flim flam. On whatever the subject of interest is.........find numbers that actually address what you are interested in.........eschew the Flim Flam. You will be ostracized and left to find better things to do with your life. Perhaps, some musings at Waldens Pond. Good for a weekend, but not a life.
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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:19 pm

This is a chart of US military spending adjusted for inflation from 1962 to 2015 that shows a great spending increase in real terms.
https://www.davemanuel.com/2010/06/14/u ... the-years/

Other charts will show that military spending has decreased as percentage of Gross Domestic Product

I suspect, but cannot as yet prove or find articles on, that the decrease in the military budget compared to the size of the GDP is because the Gross Domestic Product has become extremely bloated with useless "Product".

For an extreme example, employing people to shovel sand from one pile into another and then back again, or employing them as social workers, would be counted the same as employing people to build cars in Detroit, grow vegetables, etc., creating actual physical products.

As examples of the huge increase in bureaucracy, OSHA was created in 1970 and the Departments of Education and Energy were created in 1978; and I suspect that it can be argued that OSHA and the Department of Energy have not produced any products at all, while the Department of Education has created a tremendous amount of student debt.

While the US spends billions in legal fees (counted as GDP) to comply with building anything, China has spent billions on thousands of miles of high-speed rail, an actual physical product.

That's enough ranting for now. I'll try to come up with some actual facts.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:19 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote: Whats that term for "maverick" economists that do fun studies about some little aspect of the economy?
Economic papers are peer reviewed in the same way as science papers.
Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Mem ... c_Sciences

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Re: Trump's Trip to Iraq...

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:28 am

Tom Palven wrote:This is a chart of US military spending adjusted for inflation from 1962 to 2015 that shows a great spending increase in real terms.
No. As inflation does not match GDP and is modified by the Reserve bank.. Sometimes you have 2% inflation and sometimes 17% inflation. In real terms military spending has reduced from 8.7% in the 50 s & 60's to 3.7% today. You need to study economics to understand this.
Tom Palven wrote:I suspect, but cannot as yet prove or find articles on, that the decrease in the military budget compared to the size of the GDP is because the Gross Domestic Product has become extremely bloated with useless "Product".
If you bothered to look you would see that the USA military personel has halved since the 50s & 60s as warfare is reducing. :lol: :lol:
USA military size.jpg
Tom Palven wrote:That's enough ranting for now. I'll try to come up with some actual facts.
No you won't. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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