Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

[Flash]

Matthew Ellard wrote:

So is that my fault or your lack of basic knowledge. You simply didn't know that the CIA and FBI were already working on Russian interference in the forthcoming USA election.

Yeap, it's your fault but now you are working so hard to educate me. God bless... And incidentally, that's what they are supposed to be doing. It's their {!#%@} job, not incriminating sitting presidents with BS evidence.

Flash wrote:

But... who am I to criticize your .........

Matthew Ellard:

Obviously you are no one and your comments are insignificant. If you don't know basic facts about the current Russian interference in the past USA election and are making uneducated posts, on that topic on a skeptic forum, you are simply imitating Gorgeous.

Thank god you are someone and your BS is so significant (to yourself).
And you know, cherrypicking quotes is really cheating, not that it will bother you. Here is the entire quote;

But... who am I to criticize your nauseous, vulgar and frankly boring attacks on people like Norma, Gorgeous..

Read it, memorize it...maybe it will strengthen your resolve to be good.

And regarding that last nonsense you wrote...Something about imitating Gorgeous by not knowing about the current Russian interference in the past USA elections?
Vot? Those pesky Russians have a time machine and are just now interfering in the elections of the Bushes and maybe Reagan himself? For god's sake don't let them fix those hanging chads in Florida!

Well the USA is still a pretty good working democratic republic and still has a lot to offer the world as a partner. Like any good system it needs continual maintenance.

Oh isn't it great that you can say such such nice things about the Evil Empire, pardon me, the best democratic republic money can buy.

Yes, the Empire will make a wonderful partner like it did in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya...well the list is practically endless.

And being a corporate oligarchy and blood sucking form of capitalism I wouldn't necessarily call it good but rest assured Matthew, it will maintain itself very well with blood sweat and dollars of the deplorables.

[TJrandom]

Well the USA is still a pretty good working democratic republic

By what metric? Not by the USA's metric. Our federal government, when it monitors foreign elections, uses as its standard a +/-2% discrepancy between unaltered exit polls and vote tallies. Any discrepancy larger than 2% is considered to be a fraudulent election. In last year's Democratic primary, more than 20 states showed a +2% discrepancy, from Connecticut at 2.2% to Arizona at 35.7%. Every single discrepancy was in Hillary Clinton's favor, and the overwhelming majority of these discrepancies changed the outcomes of the elections in those states. Interestingly, the locations where the discrepancies occurred were always places that used voting machines, and never places that used paper ballots.

And that's only one issue. Here's another. There is no national standard for voter registration or for voting. Some states hold caucuses, where votes are recorded by someone counting how many hands are raised. Others use paper ballots that are hand-counted or machine-counted. Still others use voting machines with software that's horribly outdated and easily hacked. In some states, you must be registered to a particular Party to vote in that Party's primary. In my state, you can be unaffiliated and vote in either primary.

Yet another... The Democratic and Republican parties have a stranglehold on the political process, to the extent that it's impossible for any other Party to make headway at the federal level. They control the debates and set the rules for them, and they always exclude third parties from the conversation.

Still more... Democratic super delegates who get to vote twice: once as a private citizen, and once because of the special status they've been given. Elected representatives who ignore the will of their constituents in favor of their personal opinions. The fact that the winner-take-all system means that it's almost never a majority of the population that elects any politician.

I'm not seeing "pretty good" in any of this.

Not to mention gerrymandering and voter suppression.

[Matthew Ellard]

Well the USA is still a pretty good working democratic republic

By what metric?

Well I live in a constitutional monarchy, so I can't brag very much.

I spent a lot of time overseas, and they aren't exactly winning the freedom awards in the places I seem to end up. They mostly go around either shooting each other or stripping the treasury.

Here's another. There is no national standard for voter registration or for voting.

I must admit. I am a big fan of compulsory voting by everyone who is of age. (including prisoners).

Some states hold caucuses, where votes are recorded by someone counting how many hands are raised. Others use paper ballots that are hand-counted or machine-counted. Still others use voting machines with software that's horribly outdated and easily hacked. In some states, you must be registered to a particular Party to vote in that Party's primary. In my state, you can be unaffiliated and vote in either primary.

I agree this needs to be homogenised and made more secure nationally, however I consider doing that "maintenance". Every election should bring an improvement to protect people's voting rights.

Yet another... The Democratic and Republican parties have a stranglehold on the political process, to the extent that it's impossible for any other Party to make headway at the federal level. They control the debates and set the rules for them, and they always exclude third parties from the conversation.

We have coalitions in Australia. The Liberal -Country party is currently in government. The future will mean more fragmented parties and I'm OK with that. I imagine the USA in the long term future will also eventually have a more fragmented party spectrum, however the USA is so huge and you only had a civil war a hundred and fifty years ago. It's still a young country in some ways and slow to change due to its size.

("Liberal" means "conservative" in Australia, which can be confusing as Australia is socialist in general. The left party is the Labor Party.)

I'm not seeing "pretty good" in any of this.

Fair enough. I think we share views. I just don't knock the USA when it is having a rough time, like the moment. We had a similar rough time about a decade ago when our anti-foreigner, uber-capitalist, conservative idiots "One Nation" party did what Trumps doing today. We got over that.

[Matthew Ellard]

Yeap, it's your fault but now you are working so hard to educate me.

I couldn't give a rat's arse about you Flash. I simply corrected a ridiculous claim you made on a skeptic forum that was just wrong.

Oh isn't it great that you can say such such nice things about the Evil Empire, pardon me, the best democratic republic money can buy.

The USA is not "the Evil Empire". It is just a normal country with normal problems, that can be fixed. No country is perfect.

It's all very easy to simply slag off the USA, but its better to make constructive comments and simultaneously consider you own country's problems.

[Flash]

Matthew Ellard wrote:

I couldn't give a rat's arse about you Flash.

Well, if i said "the same to you Matthew", would that be an insult or just an honest confession? Go and figure...

[JO 753]

You better tell the Communist party of Russia Liberal democrat Party of Russia as they both still hold 14% of seats, each in the Duma. United Russia (Putin's party only has a 4% majority to stand on its own without forming a coalition. That's why Putin is on the campaign trail for 2018.

Disqualifying and imprizoning your opponents are popular campane stratejyz in bogus democrasyz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_p ... tion,_2012

Therez also assault, assassination, blackmail, threts to family memberz for critics and candidates that get too uppity.
Kara-Murza poizoned
Navalny jailed

I watched the Watergate special on NBC yesterday. Nixon wuz running a mob style operation thats not fundamentally different from Putin'z. He woud hav gotten away with Watergate if not for the reporterz sticking to it.

[Tom Palven]

You better tell the Communist party of Russia Liberal democrat Party of Russia as they both still hold 14% of seats, each in the Duma. United Russia (Putin's party only has a 4% majority to stand on its own without forming a coalition. That's why Putin is on the campaign trail for 2018.

Disqualifying and imprizoning your opponents are popular campane stratejyz in bogus democrasyz.

I submitted this link early this morning, JO, but in case you didn't read it, former Washington insider David Stockman says that it's all over but the shoutin'; that the advent of Deep State hack Robert Mueller marks the end of Trump-Pence and the installation of apparatchik Paul Ryan to maintain the status quo.

So far Stockman's analysis has been spot-on.

You win:

http://original.antiwar.com/David_Stock ... -big-coup/

[TJrandom]

You better tell the Communist party of Russia Liberal democrat Party of Russia as they both still hold 14% of seats, each in the Duma. United Russia (Putin's party only has a 4% majority to stand on its own without forming a coalition. That's why Putin is on the campaign trail for 2018.

Disqualifying and imprizoning your opponents are popular campane stratejyz in bogus democrasyz.

I submitted this link early this morning, JO, but in case you didn't read it, former Washington insider David Stockman says that it's all over but the shoutin'; that the advent of Deep State hack Robert Mueller marks the end of Trump-Pence and the installation of apparatchik Paul Ryan to maintain the status quo.

So far Stockman's analysis has been spot-on.

You win:

http://original.antiwar.com/David_Stock ... -big-coup/

A long, but good read. I didn`t see Prince mentioned, but may have read too quickly. It would be very good if he too is ousted. But Ryan? Hadn’t thought of that. Maybe better to give it back to Hillary (joke).

[Nikki Nyx]

Well the USA is still a pretty good working democratic republic

By what metric?

Well I live in a constitutional monarchy, so I can't brag very much.

I spent some time studying political ideologies and talking with people who embraced the more "fringe" ideologies and came to some conclusions:
1. There isn't any single ideology I can embrace wholeheartedly. Quite a few have good ideas, but all have at least one drawback.
2. All ideologies that specifically repudiate the right of the State to exist can be discarded. None will work.
3. Political terms are being completely misused today. People use "liberal" as if it means "leftist"...and it doesn't. They call themselves "libertarian," then espouse unregulated free-market capitalism, and don't understand they've been sold a bill of goods.

I must admit. I am a big fan of compulsory voting by everyone who is of age. (including prisoners).

I agree! I'm not sure why the ACLU hasn't fought the US taking voting rights away from prisoners and, worse, from those released after they've finished their sentences. That last seems unconstitutional to me. I'm not sure we could institute compulsory voting here without it being interpreted as a poll tax, but we could establish an incentive program, perhaps a small tax deduction.

Some states hold caucuses, where votes are recorded by someone counting how many hands are raised. Others use paper ballots that are hand-counted or machine-counted. Still others use voting machines with software that's horribly outdated and easily hacked. In some states, you must be registered to a particular Party to vote in that Party's primary. In my state, you can be unaffiliated and vote in either primary.

I agree this needs to be homogenised and made more secure nationally, however I consider doing that "maintenance". Every election should bring an improvement to protect people's voting rights.

The States' Rights yammerers get quite upset at discussion of homogenizing voting, even though it would be beneficial. I'd also like to see all paper ballots with receipts and a standardized counting method that's at least double-checked.

Yet another... The Democratic and Republican parties have a stranglehold on the political process, to the extent that it's impossible for any other Party to make headway at the federal level. They control the debates and set the rules for them, and they always exclude third parties from the conversation.

We have coalitions in Australia. The Liberal -Country party is currently in government. The future will mean more fragmented parties and I'm OK with that. I imagine the USA in the long term future will also eventually have a more fragmented party spectrum, however the USA is so huge and you only had a civil war a hundred and fifty years ago. It's still a young country in some ways and slow to change due to its size.

It's also slow to change due to the lack of education. Many people fear change here, automatically seeing it as bad, especially if the idea comes from a foreign country. The system doesn't teach factual history, critical thinking, logic, or subjects that create a population that knows how to think; it creates a population of ignorant, gullible sheep.

I recall having a conversation with a woman in her early 30s and a man my age. Neither thought that Timothy McVeigh was entitled to a trial by a jury of his peers. Both thought the government could automatically sentence him based on the evidence. When I quoted the Sixth Amendment, the woman didn't recognize it as such and said, "You really believe that?" as if it was my personal belief rather than the Constitution. *smh*

I'm not seeing "pretty good" in any of this.

Fair enough. I think we share views. I just don't knock the USA when it is having a rough time, like the moment. We had a similar rough time about a decade ago when our anti-foreigner, uber-capitalist, conservative idiots "One Nation" party did what Trumps doing today. We got over that.

I think the Trump presidency was a necessity. There were too many people blinded by the dog whistles of both parties. And still are. Honestly, I might vomit if I read another apologia for the Obama presidency. I don't regret voting for him in '08, because his record showed a thoughtful, intelligent Senator. But I do regret my '12 vote, which is my own fault for not paying attention, relying on the fact that someone with a "D" after their name was in office. After Bill Clinton, I should have known better than to be complacent.

I'll argue this point to the death. Neither Obama nor Hillary Clinton is a Democrat. You can't be a Democrat when you're on the far right of the political spectrum. And this is the problem:

[Tom Palven]

I'll argue this point to the death. Neither Obama nor Hillary Clinton is a Democrat. You can't be a Democrat when you're on the far right of the political spectrum. And this is the problem:

How can one be a democrat and be a puppet for the Deep State that allies itself with the repressive, misogynistic absolute monarchy of Saudi Arabia, including Bush, Obama (perhaps reluctantly), and Hillary, whose foundation got big bucks from it?

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=bu ... &FORM=IGRE

[bobbo_the_Pragmatist]

LMFTFY: "....not the democratic party I grew up supporting...."

The issue being as Saint Ralph Nader said long ago: both parties represent little differences of the Corporatist party."

They have all sold their souls to the larger donors.....giving us the eroded middle class, class divide, disparity of wealth, reductions in regulations.

[Nikki Nyx]

I'll argue this point to the death. Neither Obama nor Hillary Clinton is a Democrat. You can't be a Democrat when you're on the far right of the political spectrum. And this is the problem:

How can one be a democrat and be a puppet for the Deep State that allies itself with the repressive, misogynistic absolute monarchy of Saudi Arabia, including Bush, Obama (perhaps reluctantly), and Hillary, whose foundation got big bucks from it?

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=bu ... &FORM=IGRE

I had arguments with people who claimed Hillary was a feminist too. Not with her foreign policy record, she wasn't. Her "feminism" was only for people who looked like her...that's not feminism.

[Nikki Nyx]

LMFTFY: "....not the democratic party I grew up supporting...."

The issue being as Saint Ralph Nader said long ago: both parties represent little differences of the Corporatist party."

They have all sold their souls to the larger donors.....giving us the eroded middle class, class divide, disparity of wealth, reductions in regulations.

Yes, thank you. There is no political party in the US that represents the working class, women, people of color, children, seniors, the LGBTQIA community, the poor, etc. Therein lies the problem.

[JO 753]

So far Stockman's analysis has been spot-on.

You win:

At least he'z smarter than the GoPs who are still saying 'zero evidens', thinking they can make it all evaporate if they keep it up long enuf.

A major hole in hiz theory: Trump & hiz posse hav been covering sumthing up all along. (and I mean way back to the 90z or earlier) I can only think uv 1 guy who didnt fail to report hiz Russia connections - Rex Tillerson. And hiz were simply too public to hide, plus, he wuznt part uv Trump's world befor he got the SS gig.

Thats the obvious hole. The less obvious, kuz everybodyz in the forrest, iz that virtually everything Trump duz helps Putin and hurts America. Hard to beleev it just aksidentally happenz every time.

Iz he creating a Deep State conspirasy theory just to hej hiz bet?

[Flash]

JO 753 wrote;

A major hole in hiz theory: Trump & hiz posse hav been covering sumthing up all along. (and I mean way back to the 90z or earlier) I can only think uv 1 guy who didnt fail to report hiz Russia connections - Rex Tillerson. And hiz were simply too public to hide, plus, he wuznt part uv Trump's world befor he got the SS gig.

And since when it is a crime in America to even talk to the Russians?

Tillerson got an SS gig? Like, he commands Schutzstaffel unit in Wahington?

Thats the obvious hole. The less obvious, kuz everybodyz in the forrest, iz that virtually everything Trump duz helps Putin and hurts America. Hard to beleev it just aksidentally happenz every time.

So according to this logic when Trump went to Saudi Arabia, Israel, Vatican and Brussels he helped Putin? And when he bombed the Syrian airfield with Tomahawks, threatened North Korea (and China, and Iran), put more sanctions on Russia, fired Comey, he helped Putin?

Iz he creating a Deep State conspirasy theory just to hej hiz bet?

I don't think Trump has the imagination to invent a conspiracy theory. But you can't deny that the two ruling cliques of the Empire are brawling and one of them is often referred to as the Deep State, for simplicity.

[Nikki Nyx]

And since when it is a crime in America to even talk to the Russians?

It's my understanding that the crime is the failure to disclose the communication.

[Matthew Ellard]

Disqualifying and imprizoning your opponents are popular campane stratejyz in bogus democrasyz.

That's great Jo 753, apart from the fact 46% of the Duma's parties are in opposition to United Russia (Putin's Party) and have not been arrested or imprisoned. If United Russia looses 4% of its base in the 2018 federal election it will have to form coalitions with one or more of its opponents. It's hard to have the SVR and FSB killing off the opposition if the next government is going to arrest those people who shot the opposition.

I think you mean China or North Korea where there are no opposition parties at all.

As for the shootings
When the Soviet Union broke up, many smaller countries that relied on Russia, did really stupid things that it thought would make Russia happy. The Inguish muslims were moved by Stalin to Chechnya and after the second Chechen war the friendly government there probably had a hand in the murder of Putin's opponents who had also been active in Chechnya, like Boris Nemtsov. The Russian media treats this like "gang wars" although it is more probably, political.

[Matthew Ellard]

And since when it is a crime in America to even talk to the Russians?

The Logan Act (1 Stat. 613, 18 U.S.C. § 953) makes it a criminal offense for a private citizen to negotiate with a Foreign government concerning an existing dispute with the United States.

This is why the prosecution's evidence gathering, ("discovery") is focused on whether Kushner, Sessions or Flynn specifically mentioned the sanctions while they were still private citizens, when they met with Kislyak, Gorkov or two other unknown Russians at meetings.

Please remember that when Obama was still president, John Kerry was still Secretary of State. How could John Kerry do his legislative duty with private citizens saying something different to the Russians?

[TJrandom]

LMFTFY: "....not the democratic party I grew up supporting...."

The issue being as Saint Ralph Nader said long ago: both parties represent little differences of the Corporatist party."

They have all sold their souls to the larger donors.....giving us the eroded middle class, class divide, disparity of wealth, reductions in regulations.

Yes, thank you. There is no political party in the US that represents the working class, women, people of color, children, seniors, the LGBTQIA community, the poor, etc. Therein lies the problem.

I blame Citizens United. Actually - `Citizens United` would be a good new party name for your list of unrepresented peoples.

[Tom Palven]

Matt,

Don't know if you're aware of this RT report that Australia is halting bombing in Syria.
https://www.rt.com/news/393166-australi ... hts-syria/

Any thoughts on this?

[JO 753]

And since when it is a crime in America to even talk to the Russians?

Its not. But it iz a crime to tok to Russian spyz about helping Russian interests that are detrimental to the US. And az Luna mentioned its also a crime to cover up any communicationz. Sins they knew this and knew the severity uv the penalty, you haf to wonder how serious the crimez they are hiding are.

Tillerson got an SS gig? Like, he commands Schutzstaffel unit in Wahington?

Practically! Axing the senior staff and ignoring the press, he iz sertainly acting like sum sort uv Nazi.

Its possibl that getting Rex appointed Secretary uv State wuz Putin'z main objectiv - everything else wuz distraction & fog so Rex coud do hiz job without interferens. He iz by far the smartest guy in Trump's gang and hiz motive iz clear.

So according to this logic when Trump went to Saudi Arabia, Israel, Vatican and Brussels he helped Putin? And when he bombed the Syrian airfield with Tomahawks, threatened North Korea (and China, and Iran), put more sanctions on Russia, fired Comey, he helped Putin?

Yes.

I don't think Trump has the imagination to invent a conspiracy theory.

Not Trump! The author uv the artikl you linked!

[Nikki Nyx]

LMFTFY: "....not the democratic party I grew up supporting...."

The issue being as Saint Ralph Nader said long ago: both parties represent little differences of the Corporatist party."

They have all sold their souls to the larger donors.....giving us the eroded middle class, class divide, disparity of wealth, reductions in regulations.

Yes, thank you. There is no political party in the US that represents the working class, women, people of color, children, seniors, the LGBTQIA community, the poor, etc. Therein lies the problem.

I blame Citizens United. Actually - `Citizens United` would be a good new party name for your list of unrepresented peoples.

The Citizens United case was just the nail in the coffin. The Democratic Party embraced Third Way neoliberalism with the Clinton administration. The deconstruction of welfare? The powder/crack cocaine sentencing disparity that spared the rich addicts and penalized the poor? NAFTA? The repeal of Glass-Steagall? And the Party has been playing bait and switch with the middle class ever since, just like the GOP plays bait and switch with its base.

[Flash]

JO 753 wrote:

But it iz a crime to tok to Russian spyz about helping Russian interests that are detrimental to the US. And az Luna mentioned its also a crime to cover up any communicationz. Sins they knew this and knew the severity uv the penalty, you haf to wonder how serious the crimez they are hiding are.

The Deep State and it's media puppets nowadays push the view that any Russians Americans talk to are spies and that every time they talk it's detrimental to the US interests and you believe it JO.

How do you know that Flynn or Tillerson or Sessions or Kushner talked to the bona fide Russian spies or that they even knew that the people they talked to were Russian spies? And without any recordings how do you know and how the FBI can prove that these discussions were detrimental to the US interests?

No evidence either regarding Russian hacking of the elections or some sinister talks with the Russian spies has been produced. The Deep State ruling clique sent FBI and the media on a {!#%@} fishing expedition to get Trump.

And the assertion that the Trumpists committed "serious crimes" just by talking to some Russians who have not been identified is baloney. I don't think the Trumpists committed more heinous crimes against the US interests than the Bushes who sucked up to the Saudis and let the Saudis suspected of involvment with the 9/11 hijackers escape home.

Now, there was a time for invoking the Logan act. When Reagan went behind Carter's back to the Iranians and made a deal not to release the Tehran US embassy people too early. And now, if the Deep state was serious about invoking the Logan act probably a half or more of the AIPAC members would be in jail now.

[JO 753]

You arent making any sens, Flash. Just try to think up a situation in wich Trump & hiz peepl can be innosent AND still lie about their contacts.

I admit that I can think up such situationz, but they are pure speculation and involv massiv long term international sting operationz, alien or lizard overlordz, The Devil... All great storyz pulled strate out my ass.

[Matthew Ellard]

Matt, Don't know if you're aware of this RT report that Australia is halting bombing in Syria.
Any thoughts on this?

Australia is now moving it signals intelligence gathering aircraft to the Sth Philippines.

Australian spy planes to fly over southern Philippines in Islamic State fight
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-23/a ... ht/8645086

[Matthew Ellard]

How do you know that Flynn or Tillerson or Sessions or Kushner talked to the bona fide Russian spies

Kislyak was an agent ( not an officer) of the KGB and worked for three spy agencies after graduating from the USSR Academy of Foreign Trade in 1977. He was KGB's embassy "resident" in the USA from 1981 to 1989.

how do you know and how the FBI can prove that these discussions were detrimental to the US interests?

The conversation was recorded and known to the FBI and Attorney General's office. That's why Trump sacked Sally Yates.

"January 19: Yates, the deputy attorney general, and senior intelligence officials debated what to do with the information they had on Flynn. The Post reported that FBI Director James Comey argued against notifying Trump administration officials of the communications.

[Tom Palven]

how do you know and how the FBI can prove that these discussions were detrimental to the US interests?

The conversation was recorded and known to the FBI and Attorney General's office. That's why Trump sacked Sally Yates.

"January 19: Yates, the deputy attorney general, and senior intelligence officials debated what to do with the information they had on Flynn. The Post reported that FBI Director James Comey argued against notifying Trump administration officials of the communications.

But as Flash asked, why is it supposed that these discussions were detrimental to US security, and wouldn't Trump expect the FBI director report to him?

Who do the heads of the secret police agencies report to?

[TJrandom]

I don`t think that `detrimental` is key - but rather was disclosure given where required, or were the discussions kept secret.

[OlegTheBatty]

If your security system, or your electoral system has been compromised by foreign interests, it would be detrimental to you almost by definition. As for the specific example of the US, I would like to point out to Flash that Trump got elected. If that is not detrimental then what is?

[Flash]

Flash wrote:

How do you know that Flynn or Tillerson or Sessions or Kushner talked to the bona fide Russian spies

matthew Ellard wrote:

Kislyak was an agent ( not an officer) of the KGB and worked for three spy agencies after graduating from the USSR Academy of Foreign Trade in 1977. He was KGB's embassy "resident" in the USA from 1981 to 1989.

Yes, and now he is a diplomat, a representative of his country. Not everybody (except the American ambassadors) can be a graduate of the Mother Teresa Virtue and Purity Academy. He is here to talk to important Americans, to facilitate communications between both governments.

What? You think nobody in the US should be allowed to talk to this guy because he served his country in some other capacity? And what's more, this whipped up hysteria about contact with the Russians is completely baffling. Those who promote it seem to want us to think that Americans are completely stupid, zonked out on something and unable to make logical decisions. Every time they watch RT or talk to Kislyak they become "infected" . They elect Russian agents like Trump and start questioning their political reality.

Flash wrote:

how do you know and how the FBI can prove that these discussions were detrimental to the US interests?

Matthew Ellard wrote:

The conversation was recorded and known to the FBI and Attorney General's office. That's why Trump sacked Sally
Yates.

How do you know that it was recorded by the FBI. What are your dubious sources and finally why has no one ever heard this recording?

[Flash]

OlegTheBatty wrote:

If your security system, or your electoral system has been compromised by foreign interests, it would be detrimental to you almost by definition. As for the specific example of the US, I would like to point out to Flash that Trump got elected. If that is not detrimental then what is?

Of course a country should protect it's electoral system. The problem is that the US electoral system is not even protected from Americans. Both ruling cliques are willing to cheat, lie, gerrymander, bar voters, leak information, accuse the other party of cooperating with the enemy, use FBI for partisan reasons, all in order to gain an advantage. And believe me they are not beyond hacking their own vulnerable system.

[Matthew Ellard]

But as Flash asked, why is it supposed that these discussions were detrimental to US security, and wouldn't Trump expect the FBI director report to him?

Write down the timing of the events. You don't seem to know any dates. Trump won the election but Obama remained President until inauguration. So if John Kerry is still Secretary of State and Flynn is still a private citizen, can Flynn talk to Russians about sanctions without contravening the Logan Act?

Who do the heads of the secret police agencies report to?

Again, you don't seem to be paying any attention to the facts. Flynn was briefly, the National Security Adviser for Trump. What committees does the National Security Adviser sit on? This is the fundamental reason Flynn had to be sacked and maybe charged with for attempted espionage. .

Have you heard of a bloke called Dan Coates? He is the director of the National Security Agency. He hosts the meeting of the National Security Agency (program). Make a guess what this agency does?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... y#Programs

[Matthew Ellard]

What? You think nobody in the US should be allowed to talk to this guy because he served his country in some other capacity?

Read the Logan act again. Can Flynn as a private citizen talk to the Russian ambassador, about sanctions, before Trump is inaugurated? Yes or No?

[scrmbldggs]

What? You think nobody in the US should be allowed to talk to this guy because he served his country in some other capacity?

Read the Logan act again. Can Flynn as a private citizen talk to the Russian ambassador, about sanctions, before Trump is inaugurated? Yes or No?

Wasn't there also a number of things he technically could engage in but was absolutely required to report - something which he simply ignored?

[Flash]

Matthew Ellard wrote:

Read the Logan act again. Can Flynn as a private citizen talk to the Russian ambassador, about sanctions, before Trump is inaugurated? Yes or No?

Of course he can talk to anybody he wants to...about anything really, flying pigs, alien visitations and sanctions. But he can't make any deals and promises like...When I am a very important man in Trumps government I will do this and this if do this and this now.

In other words, he couldn't do what Ronald Reagan did when he talked and promised things to the revolutionary government of Iran behind Jimmy Carter's back.

And Eggs is right. Flynn would have to tell FBI the truth.

[Matthew Ellard]

Read the Logan act again. Can Flynn as a private citizen talk to the Russian ambassador, about sanctions, before Trump is inaugurated? Yes or No?

Of course he can talk to anybody he wants to...about anything really, flying pigs, alien visitations and sanctions.

....soooo you haven't read the Logan Act and are going to keep making up stories. You and Trump have a lot in common.

[Matthew Ellard]

How do you know that it was recorded by the FBI. What are your dubious sources and finally why has no one ever heard this recording?

....the government’s recording of a December 29, 2016, conversation, intercepted under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), that Flynn had with Sergey Kislyak, the Russian ambassador to the United States.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... ambassador

Now is the hard bit for you Flash........ can you remember who Flynn was? Can you remember who Kislyak is? Was Donald Trump President in December 2016?

[JO 753]

The NSA recording absolutely everything mite bekum a factor iz this case. Wen therez enuf evidens to convins a juj that Trump and hiz peeps hav been working for the Russianz, Meuller will be able to be able to find out exactly wen Putin set hiz sites on the Oval Offis.

Its like having a time machine!

[OlegTheBatty]

OlegTheBatty wrote:

If your security system, or your electoral system has been compromised by foreign interests, it would be detrimental to you almost by definition. As for the specific example of the US, I would like to point out to Flash that Trump got elected. If that is not detrimental then what is?

Of course a country should protect it's electoral system. The problem is that the US electoral system is not even protected from Americans. Both ruling cliques are willing to cheat, lie, gerrymander, bar voters, leak information, accuse the other party of cooperating with the enemy, use FBI for partisan reasons, all in order to gain an advantage. And believe me they are not beyond hacking their own vulnerable system.

Certainly, one could say that the American electoral system is detrimental the American electoral system. It would be an exercise of the Tu Quoque fallacy to use that to condone foreign interference.

Any repairs to the American electoral system is up to the Americans.

[Tom Palven]

Professor Orbison on the Trump regime:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=roy+orbis ... lang=en-US