Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:02 am

supervitor wrote:Supervitor just seems to enjoy destruction of silly ideas by multiple angles, multiple times, and written in a style enjoyable to the reader)
Norma? I see you now talk about yourself in the third person. Say hello" to Monstrous the new holocaust denier who does the same. It's fascinating behaviour. :D
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 22#p474438

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:10 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
supervitor wrote:Supervitor just seems to enjoy destruction of silly ideas by multiple angles, multiple times, and written in a style enjoyable to the reader)
Norma? I see you now talk about yourself in the third person. Say hello" to Monstrous the new holocaust denier who does the same. It's fascinating behaviour. :D
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 22#p474438
Again, Ellard shows his critical thinking skills by suggesting that "doing the same", or using similar style sometimes is akin to "being the same" or "defending the same ideas".

It's Ellard's world. He has serious difficulties with logic. What can we do? What?

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:16 am

Dj, it's just like I told you. You now have the forum gang of fundamentalists fighting your battles for you. I'm sure that with a bit of more work you will have them soon thinking:

"Hmmm, something was off with that business of 9/11"

Don't ever say again my animosity isn't good for you!

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Supervitor's prophetic words

Post by supervitor » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:23 am

supervitor wrote:Ohh, djembeweaver is upset.. He's trying the "Ellard strategy"!

I'm more interested you reply what you were asked,

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 50#p478812

after all you're only on the spot for stuff you have written here.

But you can try this path of kissing Ellard's ass, I mean I was already able to make Ellard and his "skeptic gang" to join forces with a climate change "denier" against me: the joining of forces with a "truther" is definitely another one in the book for me.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:40 am

supervitor wrote: It's Ellard's world. He has serious difficulties with logic. What can we do? What?
You could try to stop talking about yourself in the third person, you idiot. :D

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:51 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
supervitor wrote: It's Ellard's world. He has serious difficulties with logic. What can we do? What?
You could try to stop talking about yourself in the third person, you idiot. :D
You're confused, once again, little Ellard. In that quotation, I use the third person refering to you: "Ellard's world", "he has serious..."

To refer to myself I'm using the first person on the majestic plural. I understand your confusion, this is grown ups stuff

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:08 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: You could try to stop talking about yourself in the third person, you idiot. :D
supervitor wrote:You're confused, once again, little Ellard. In that quotation, I use the third person refering to you: "Ellard's world", "he has serious..."
supervitor, one day ago wrote: Supervitor just seems to enjoy destruction of silly ideas by multiple angles, multiple times, and written in a style enjoyable to the reader
Your'e an idiot, Norma :D

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:25 am

supervitor wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
supervitor wrote: It's Ellard's world. He has serious difficulties with logic. What can we do? What?
You could try to stop talking about yourself in the third person, you idiot. :D
You're confused, once again, little Ellard. In that quotation, I use the third person refering to you: "Ellard's world", "he has serious..."

To refer to myself I'm using the first person on the majestic plural. I understand your confusion, this is grown ups stuff
You're telling "Ellards" again, Ellard. It's the only thing (besides talking about your personal life) you can do, we already know that.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:46 am

Ellard doesn't like supervitor using the third person to refer to himself.
Supervitor doesn't care, he likes to give the voice to the forum commentator, so members and readers can be properly informed of what happens in the forum. Ellard gets confused, of course, he doesn't know what is a literary voice. Ellard doesn't read, he "reads"

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:59 am

supervitor wrote:.... we already know that.
Whose "we" Norma?

That's what I like about your permanent state of confusion. You express your hate for "the forum Posse" ganging up on people and yet simultaneously try to speak on behalf of the forum as "we".

Half the members have you on ignore.

Is this some sort of "European" custom, as you claim to be a "European"?
:D

(Where in Europe Norma? Where in Europe? Shall I start posting in German or Russian for you?)

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:12 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
supervitor wrote:.... we already know that.
Whose "we" Norma?

That's what I like about your permanent state of confusion. You express your hate for "the forum Posse" ganging up on people and yet simultaneously try to speak on behalf of the forum as "we".

It's just the majestic plural, dear Matt.. How could you understand that, if you don't read, you "read"? You confuse everything..
Half the members have you on ignore.

You're making that up, as usual..

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:41 am

supervitor wrote: It's just the majestic plural......
I see, your posts are a stream of royal wee :D

Oddly, I didn't think there were many royals in USA retirement homes.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by djembeweaver » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:24 pm

You're making that up, as usual..
Can you make something up repeatedly, to the point where it becomes habitual, or does one merely repeat the thing that one made up?

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by djembeweaver » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:12 pm

Supervitor just seems to enjoy destruction of silly ideas by multiple angles, multiple times, and written in a style enjoyable to the reader
A few examples of this enjoyable style of writing, from this thread alone:
So, you don't trust the official story of 9/11. So what? Nothing wrong with that, son, I come across with people disconnected from reality on a daily basis. Right here on this forum
I did disagreed with your point and I made a logical argument against it, your suggestion of involvement of the CIA on the establishment of a negative conotation for the pejorative conotation of the expression "conspiracy theory"
See? In here you are not afraid of assuming the implications of what you write or chose to bring into the table. Why not doing the same to your other implications?
Just assume yourself or if you don't agree with it, don't post stuff whose logical implication is that.
When I cornered you on your implied meanings you tried a cop-out strategy, saying the implications were not there, but in that particular case, you were not afraid to assume what you implied.
The President didn't want to be bothered to answer questions
Of course none of what I'm writing means anything. I just like to line up all these weird stuff (while avoiding the meaningful facts) to be thought-provoking make mindless sensible people wonder about nonsense. It's how I role
All this conspiratory ideation must be quite confusing, I reckon that
Letting yourself get confused is disingenuous.
I told this before: it doesn't follow, non sequitor or whatever.
Why do you always have to go after the phony ones, why did you had to expose me?
Of course many great writers break conventions of grammar to create a particular effect. I seem to remember Sarah Palin using exactly this argument to justify her use of 'refudiate' so you're in good company...

Or have I misunderestimated you?

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:20 pm

Forget the grammar, little dj, it's not relevant to the topic. (you were so concerned just a couple of days ago, apologizing for your contribution for derailing the thread.. Hmmm)
Focus now: relation between conspiracy theorists and irrationality.
You have doubts related with what happened on 9/11.
You posted a quote from John Kerry, which, if one reads it like that, out of context, he apparently confesses that building 7 was demolished on purpose.

End thread?

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:26 pm

djembeweaver wrote:I also apologize for my part in the derailment.
Hmmm, not just an irrational person, but also a dishonest guy.

This is not pretty..

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:40 pm

djembeweaver wrote:
I appreciate that. I'm still a little sore at the way certain other posters responded...
Now, just because I'm responsible for that soreness, it doesn't give you an excuse to be upset and divert the pertinent points to the topic. I played according to the rules and gave you multiple opportunities to back off on the "term intentionally pejorative and brought into use by the CIA" business. Just accept the defeat, it's the only way of moving on.. Or Go to the proctologist, I'm sure he can prescribe you something for that soreness.

Can we move on? Great :)

John Kerry? Djembeweaver as an example of irrational conspiracy ideation? That's what we are interested in.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by djembeweaver » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:18 pm

One problem with the characterization of those labelled 'conspiracy theorists' as 'irrational people' is that many seem entirely rational. This is the case even with conspiracy theories that I think have 0% probability of having even an element of truth (such as 'alien abductees' who seem entirely sincere in their belief that they have been abducted). I have seen many extremely credible people called 'tinfoil hat wearing crazies' and that always strikes me as odd - they may very well be incorrect in their beliefs or invalid in their arguments but they are certainly not irrational.

A good example of such a person is Annie Machon, an ex-MI5 intelligence officer turned whistle blower, who supports many of the big contemporary conspiracy theories. I am sure that many contributors to this forum will accuse her of 'irrationality' and I wonder what the justification for this label would be, other than the fact that she argues in favour of 'conspiracy theories'. If that is the only justification then it is a circular argument, whereby someone is irrational because they are a conspiracy theorist and are labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' because their beliefs are irrational. Here is a link to an interview with Annie Machon:



Is she irrational and if so on what grounds?

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by TJrandom » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:20 am

djembeweaver wrote: ... I wonder what the justification for this label would be, other than the fact that she argues in favour of 'conspiracy theories'. If that is the only justification then it is a circular argument, whereby someone is irrational because they are a conspiracy theorist and are labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' because their beliefs are irrational. ...
They are not labeled a conspiracy theorist because they have been labeled irrational, but rather because they believe in conspiracy theories. There are many irrational people who do not believe in conspiracy theories, and they are simply labeled irrational.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Scott Mayers » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:28 am

djembeweaver wrote:One problem with the characterization of those labelled 'conspiracy theorists' as 'irrational people' is that many seem entirely rational. This is the case even with conspiracy theories that I think have 0% probability of having even an element of truth (such as 'alien abductees' who seem entirely sincere in their belief that they have been abducted). I have seen many extremely credible people called 'tinfoil hat wearing crazies' and that always strikes me as odd - they may very well be incorrect in their beliefs or invalid in their arguments but they are certainly not irrational.

A good example of such a person is Annie Machon, an ex-MI5 intelligence officer turned whistle blower, who supports many of the big contemporary conspiracy theories. I am sure that many contributors to this forum will accuse her of 'irrationality' and I wonder what the justification for this label would be, other than the fact that she argues in favour of 'conspiracy theories'. If that is the only justification then it is a circular argument, whereby someone is irrational because they are a conspiracy theorist and are labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' because their beliefs are irrational. Here is a link to an interview with Annie Machon:



Is she irrational and if so on what grounds?
I agree completely with your stance here. I believe that we have to grant charity to each person as being rational by default. AND, even where one demonstrates some irrationality, we have to only judge these people based on their particular case. By respecting this, even where someone MAY be acting irrationally, we at least have a better chance to affect them by respecting them as valid people, even if they may be acting with purposeful deception. Only through participating with understanding do we have a hope to improve each other. A person who is actually acting with deception too can't help but be affected in time by our example.
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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:29 am

djembeweaver wrote:A good example of such a person is Annie Machon, an ex-MI5 intelligence officer turned whistle blower, who supports many of the big contemporary conspiracy theories.
Annie Machon was thrown out of the service's internal political monitoring section, because she was dating David Shayler at the time, who worked in the same section. They leaked information to outsiders. Shayler was charged and went to gaol. They both talk about conspiracy theories today.
djembeweaver wrote:Is she irrational and if so on what grounds?
She's a traitor and should be taken outside and shot. :D

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by TJrandom » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:43 am

... who supports many of the big contemporary conspiracy theories.
OK, so 20 some minutes into the video, I see no evidence of irrationality. But what conspiracy theories does she support? NDEs, crop circles, alien abductions, faked moon landings, etc.? Here is a list........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... y_theories

EDIT: OK, now near the end of the video - I see she believes in conspiracies on 7/7, 9/11, and false flag operations.
EDIT2: It seems that she is now making her living off of this, with `talks` and a book.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:59 am

Scott Mayers wrote:
djembeweaver wrote:One problem with the characterization of those labelled 'conspiracy theorists' as 'irrational people' is that many seem entirely rational. This is the case even with conspiracy theories that I think have 0% probability of having even an element of truth (such as 'alien abductees' who seem entirely sincere in their belief that they have been abducted). I have seen many extremely credible people called 'tinfoil hat wearing crazies' and that always strikes me as odd - they may very well be incorrect in their beliefs or invalid in their arguments but they are certainly not irrational.

A good example of such a person is Annie Machon, an ex-MI5 intelligence officer turned whistle blower, who supports many of the big contemporary conspiracy theories. I am sure that many contributors to this forum will accuse her of 'irrationality' and I wonder what the justification for this label would be, other than the fact that she argues in favour of 'conspiracy theories'. If that is the only justification then it is a circular argument, whereby someone is irrational because they are a conspiracy theorist and are labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' because their beliefs are irrational. Here is a link to an interview with Annie Machon:



Is she irrational and if so on what grounds?
I agree completely with your stance here. I believe that we have to grant charity to each person as being rational by default. AND, even where one demonstrates some irrationality, we have to only judge these people based on their particular case. By respecting this, even where someone MAY be acting irrationally, we at least have a better chance to affect them by respecting them as valid people, even if they may be acting with purposeful deception. Only through participating with understanding do we have a hope to improve each other. A person who is actually acting with deception too can't help but be affected in time by our example.
All you say is true, Scott. You missed what dj said, however. His point was to conflate whistleblowing with conspiracy theorism. He has tried this before by inserting Greenwald's work with Snowden to support his nonsense about the CIA giving conotations to terms intentionally and bringing them into use.
You're a good guy, but I think you need to practice your read-between-the-lines skills. Here, dj uses a more ambiguous character, from what I could see, a former partner of a famous whistleblower, that evolved into a conspiracy theory talker. More recently she has been attaching herself into the whistleblowing supporting crowd again (it just gives more credibility, I guess).
So, yes. What you said is true, but that's not what dj said, he's just after credibility for his nonsense.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:17 am

djembeweaver wrote:
A good example of such a person is Annie Machon, an ex-MI5 intelligence officer turned whistle blower, who supports many of the big contemporary conspiracy theories. I am sure that many contributors to this forum will accuse her of 'irrationality' and I wonder what the justification for this label would be, other than the fact that she argues in favour of 'conspiracy theories'. If that is the only justification then it is a circular argument, whereby someone is irrational because they are a conspiracy theorist and are labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' because their beliefs are irrational. Here is a link to an interview with Annie Machon:



Is she irrational and if so on what grounds?
Here, dj. I'll fix it for you:
I wonder what the justification for this label would be, other than the fact that she one argues in favour of 'conspiracy theories'. irrationally.
There. No more need for your thoughts to go around in circles. People are labelled irrational when they argue/talk irrationally. For instance, thinking John Kerry's quote is meaningful in same way.

You're welcome.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Scott Mayers » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:17 am

supervitor,

I'm not even investing in dj's particular links or support of any other issue he may raise. He can still be correct on this discussion even if he's intending to use it for some other reason. If he thinks this point supports a particular or contingent case, he's in error. I wasn't invested in any of the other issues so cannot argue for or against them.
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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:56 am

TJrandom wrote: EDIT: OK, now near the end of the video - I see she believes in conspiracies on 7/7, 9/11, and false flag operations. EDIT2: It seems that she is now making her living off of this, with `talks` and a book.
These two people are turds seeking attention. She should have gone to gaol with her boyfriend.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by TJrandom » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:39 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
TJrandom wrote: EDIT: OK, now near the end of the video - I see she believes in conspiracies on 7/7, 9/11, and false flag operations. EDIT2: It seems that she is now making her living off of this, with `talks` and a book.
These two people are turds seeking attention. She should have gone to gaol with her boyfriend.
Well, she actually doesn`t believe in a 7/7 conspiracy, nor in false flag - she just says that she does to milk the public. The proof? She is still above ground, and not in jail on some flimsy charge.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:06 pm

TJrandom wrote: Well, she actually doesn`t believe in a 7/7 conspiracy, nor in false flag - she just says that she does to milk the public. The proof? She is still above ground, and not in jail on some flimsy charge.
I imagine sometimes, it's simply not worth giving these people any attention.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by djembeweaver » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:42 pm

TJrandom wrote:
djembeweaver wrote: ... I wonder what the justification for this label would be, other than the fact that she argues in favour of 'conspiracy theories'. If that is the only justification then it is a circular argument, whereby someone is irrational because they are a conspiracy theorist and are labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' because their beliefs are irrational. ...
They are not labeled a conspiracy theorist because they have been labeled irrational, but rather because they believe in conspiracy theories. There are many irrational people who do not believe in conspiracy theories, and they are simply labeled irrational.
The problem with that definition is that it begs the question: Who is the ultimate arbiter of deciding what is, and what is not, a conspiracy theory?

Are Lee Hamilton and Thomas Kean conspiracy theorists for suggesting that the 9/11 commission was lied to by the CIA? Or were the activists from the 'Citizen's Commission to Investigate the FBI', who broke into an FBI office in 1971 and stole files, conspiracy theorists for believing that the FBI were involved in illegal and unconstitutional activities to discredit and disrupt anti-war groups and others seen as 'radicals'? Surely it is a subjective judgement made by the person applying the label...unless you think there is an objective way to define 'conspiracy theory' and, therefore, 'conspiracy theorists'.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by TJrandom » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:46 pm

djembeweaver wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
djembeweaver wrote: ... I wonder what the justification for this label would be, other than the fact that she argues in favour of 'conspiracy theories'. If that is the only justification then it is a circular argument, whereby someone is irrational because they are a conspiracy theorist and are labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' because their beliefs are irrational. ...
They are not labeled a conspiracy theorist because they have been labeled irrational, but rather because they believe in conspiracy theories. There are many irrational people who do not believe in conspiracy theories, and they are simply labeled irrational.
The problem with that definition is that it begs the question: Who is the ultimate arbiter of deciding what is, and what is not, a conspiracy theory?

Are Lee Hamilton and Thomas Kean conspiracy theorists for suggesting that the 9/11 commission was lied to by the CIA? Or were the activists from the 'Citizen's Commission to Investigate the FBI', who broke into an FBI office in 1971 and stole files, conspiracy theorists for believing that the FBI were involved in illegal and unconstitutional activities to discredit and disrupt anti-war groups and others seen as 'radicals'? Surely it is a subjective judgement made by the person applying the label...unless you think there is an objective way to define 'conspiracy theory' and, therefore, 'conspiracy theorists'.
Surely it is a subjective judgement made by a majority of people applying the label...

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by djembeweaver » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:51 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:supervitor,

I'm not even investing in dj's particular links or support of any other issue he may raise. He can still be correct on this discussion even if he's intending to use it for some other reason. If he thinks this point supports a particular or contingent case, he's in error. I wasn't invested in any of the other issues so cannot argue for or against them.
My only intention was to show that some people labelled 'conspiracy theorists' are rational and compelling. Being labelled in this way is meant to ensure that people do not even listen to your arguments since they can dismiss them a priori on the basis of the label. The fact that I have been so labelled (even though I have at no point argued in favour of any particular theory and, regarding 9/11, have clearly stated that I would never cry conspiracy or argue for a controlled demolition) is intended to ensure that my views on all subsequent subjects are dismissed a priori.

Thank goodness someone is arguing rationally...

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by djembeweaver » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:53 pm

TJrandom wrote:
djembeweaver wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
djembeweaver wrote: ... I wonder what the justification for this label would be, other than the fact that she argues in favour of 'conspiracy theories'. If that is the only justification then it is a circular argument, whereby someone is irrational because they are a conspiracy theorist and are labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' because their beliefs are irrational. ...
They are not labeled a conspiracy theorist because they have been labeled irrational, but rather because they believe in conspiracy theories. There are many irrational people who do not believe in conspiracy theories, and they are simply labeled irrational.
The problem with that definition is that it begs the question: Who is the ultimate arbiter of deciding what is, and what is not, a conspiracy theory?

Are Lee Hamilton and Thomas Kean conspiracy theorists for suggesting that the 9/11 commission was lied to by the CIA? Or were the activists from the 'Citizen's Commission to Investigate the FBI', who broke into an FBI office in 1971 and stole files, conspiracy theorists for believing that the FBI were involved in illegal and unconstitutional activities to discredit and disrupt anti-war groups and others seen as 'radicals'? Surely it is a subjective judgement made by the person applying the label...unless you think there is an objective way to define 'conspiracy theory' and, therefore, 'conspiracy theorists'.
Surely it is a subjective judgement made by a majority of people applying the label...
In some of the most high profile cases then yes, I would agree with that. But what about cases such as the ones I cited? It is far from black and white in many cases...

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:20 pm

djembeweaver wrote:
My only intention was to show that some people labelled 'conspiracy theorists' are rational and compelling. Being labelled in this way is meant to ensure that people do not even listen to your arguments
Wrong! I'll explain later, with your particular case.
since they can dismiss them a priori on the basis of the label. The fact that I have been so labelled (even though I have at no point argued in favour of any particular theory and, regarding 9/11, have clearly stated that I would never cry conspiracy or argue for a controlled demolition) is intended to ensure that my views on all subsequent subjects are dismissed a priori.
You've been labelled paranoid, irrational and naive. Because you've been arguing from that perspective. The intention was just to characterize your line of thinking, not to "insure your views would be dismissed" (that's your paranoid mind, once again, kicking in). I dismissed your views without needing to label you as a conspiracy theorist (I haven't) when you tried to introduce them. Here, I said:
So, you don't trust the official story of 9/11. So what? Nothing wrong with that, son, I come across with people disconnected from reality on a daily basis. Right here on this forum
Later, when you insisted, I reiterated:
You seem to want to drag me into a silly 9/11 issues discussion, even after I signaled to you I'm not interested (on the grounds of being silly). Sorry, son, I don't care about that.
So, why are these discussions silly or imply the ones that propose them are irrational or disconnected from reality? Because the person willing to consider them must make the decision of ignoring the reality, the story that all meaningful evidence tell him, an irrational decision, or at least that that person is very distracted, ignoring the real world, which ultimately can also be seen as a somewhat irrational attitude.

Here, son. I'll show you the reality:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks
The September 11 attacks (also referred to as September 11, September 11th, or 9/11)[nb 1] were a series of four coordinated terrorist attacks by the Islamic terrorist group al-Qaeda on the United States on the morning of Tuesday, September 11, 2001. The attacks consisted of suicide attacks used to target symbolic U.S. landmarks.

Four passenger airliners—which all departed from airports on the U.S. East Coast bound for California—were hijacked by 19 al-Qaeda terrorists to be flown into buildings.
Deal with this first. Then you can start wondering about velocity of buildings falling, John Kerry's quotes, CIA secretiveness, GWB lack of cooperation, and all the rest without sounding irrational.
Thank goodness someone is arguing rationally.
Thanks

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Canadian Skeptic » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:22 pm

To add: Modern usage of the term seems to include both a "believes in conspiracy theories" component, as TJ suggests, *as well as* an "is irrational" or "is wrong" component, as DJ argues. Simply believing in conspiracy theories is not sufficient to be called a conspiracy theorist, as anyone who believes the NSA is collecting and spying on innocent Americans today would not be considered a conspiracy theorist, despite likely fitting under definitions of a conspiracy theory -- though people claiming the government was spying on them *would* have been called conspiracy theorists prior to the Snowden leaks (Alex Jones comes to mind, here). Its status changed specifically because the evidence (and, crucially, popular opinion) shifted in favour of the conspiracy narrative.

Ultimately, the term seems to refer to something along the lines of "people who believe in conspiracies that I don't personally agree with;" modern scholars I'm familiar with refer to it as a form of "stigmatized knowledge," or similar.

Bear in mind by saying that, though, I'm not arguing conspiracies that fall into this category don't deserve their stigmatized status. It may well be the case that they do (In this thread, I'm not arguing either way, as it's irrelevant in my opinion).

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:16 am

djembeweaver wrote: Who is the ultimate arbiter of deciding what is, and what is not, a conspiracy theory?
This is a ridiculous "loaded" question. Who cares if another "theory" exists.

The real question is "Is there enough good evidence that objectively indicates a conspiracy exists?"

(What do you think the public prosecutors do all day?......look for other people's theories?. No, they compile evidence).

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by djembeweaver » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:07 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
djembeweaver wrote: Who is the ultimate arbiter of deciding what is, and what is not, a conspiracy theory?
This is a ridiculous "loaded" question. Who cares if another "theory" exists.

The real question is "Is there enough good evidence that objectively indicates a conspiracy exists?"

(What do you think the public prosecutors do all day?......look for other people's theories?. No, they compile evidence).
Kind of my point really. In the examples I cited one might conclude that there was indeed enough good evidence to conclude that conspiracies existed, although in the second the conclusive evidence was not unearthed until after the break in. Remember that evidence is not always all or nothing but builds up until there is enough to tip the balance of probability. That's how it works in the legal system you cite. If someone has a theory that there is a conspiracy, and you judge that there is not enough evidence to support that theory then you would label them a conspiracy theorist, If more evidence then comes to light that supports their theory then do they cease to be such just because your judgement of what is sufficient evidence differs to theirs? It is all quite subjective much of the time...

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by djembeweaver » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:21 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
djembeweaver wrote: Who is the ultimate arbiter of deciding what is, and what is not, a conspiracy theory?
This is a ridiculous "loaded" question. Who cares if another "theory" exists.

The real question is "Is there enough good evidence that objectively indicates a conspiracy exists?"

(What do you think the public prosecutors do all day?......look for other people's theories?. No, they compile evidence).
In fact the legal system provides a good analogy here:

If a crime is reported, let's say a burglary, someone might be arrested on the basis that they were seen acting suspiciously in the vicinity. While this might be enough to make an arrest it is likely not enough to secure a conviction in court. The police will be allowed to hold the accused for a specified amount of time during which they will conduct interviews and seek additional evidence. Depending on the severity of the crime they are usually bailed and a future date set for a trial in court. In the period leading up to the trial detectives will investigate, collecting evidence and building a case. In the UK when the police have finished building their case they will present the evidence to the Crown Prosecution Service (C.P.S) who will decide, on the balance of probability, whether the case has a good chance of succeeding in court. Sometimes the CPS will drop the case because they deem there is insufficient evidence. Thus the point at which "there is enough good evidence that objectively indicates a conspiracy exists" is, in fact, a subjective one based on probability.

Now compare this to the Citizen's Commission to Investigate the FBI, who had suspicions that the FBI were using illegal and unconstitutional methods to infiltrate and disrupt groups they deemed 'radical' or 'threats'. They had no direct proof until they broke into an FBI office and stole documents detailing these methods, and had they not done so these claims might have become just another conspiracy theory. They would still have been right, but the weight of evidence would not have been enough to sway public opinion.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:54 am

djembeweaver wrote: In fact the legal system provides a good analogy here:
To be frank, the law varies from country to country. In the USA you have to prove a conspiracy exists for criminal matters like indictments under Rico. (The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization Act). From memory, there are 18 indicators, that are evidence based, in USA law, to assess this in court.

In Australia, you simply have to show the defendants undertook activities that indicate a collusion of common intent and we have the same sort of 20 or so indicators all based on evidence.

I specialise in taxation and as you can imagine many groups of people enter into activities with common intent to avoid tax. Tax law here has the same indicators all based on evidence. The word "conspiracy" is irrelevant. It's just common intent.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:42 am

djembeweaver wrote: Now compare this to the Citizen's Commission to Investigate the FBI, who had suspicions that the FBI were using illegal and unconstitutional methods to infiltrate and disrupt groups they deemed 'radical' or 'threats'.
To be clear, let's say they weren't (or wouldn't) spy(ing) you, or Alex Jones, jfk assassination conspirationists or groups-that-have-doubts-about-9/11. Those groups deemed as radicals or threats were probably, groups and people that had a real impact in society, like Martin Luther King, Malcom X and their movements, Black Power, Mouhamed Ali, Noam Chomsky, people like that.
Just so it's clear what you mean.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by djembeweaver » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:44 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
djembeweaver wrote: In fact the legal system provides a good analogy here:
To be frank, the law varies from country to country. In the USA you have to prove a conspiracy exists for criminal matters like indictments under Rico. (The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization Act). From memory, there are 18 indicators, that are evidence based, in USA law, to assess this in court.

In Australia, you simply have to show the defendants undertook activities that indicate a collusion of common intent and we have the same sort of 20 or so indicators all based on evidence.

I specialise in taxation and as you can imagine many groups of people enter into activities with common intent to avoid tax. Tax law here has the same indicators all based on evidence. The word "conspiracy" is irrelevant. It's just common intent.
I agree 100% that the word "conspiracy" is irrelevant. Any claim made by anyone is either valid or invalid and that validity is assessed on the basis of evidence. I have been arguing all along that the word is used pejoratively to discredit and does not represent any objective criteria but rather is a subjective judgement used against people who hold opposing (and often controversial) views.