Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:56 pm

djembeweaver wrote:
supervitor wrote:Just answer the question, dj. I'm trying to answer the OP by having you say what is the rational behind that post on the building 7 thread: If you cannot make sense of it, I guess we can establish there is some sense on the irrationality conotation for the expression "conspiracy theory"
Wrong thread again. It is pretty confusing I'll grant you.
You are confused, yes, that's noticeable. Just answer the question since this is the right thread.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:13 pm

We have to give some time to dj, until he recovers his orientation. All this conspiratory ideation must be quite confusing, I reckon that.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Scott Mayers » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:48 pm

djembeweaver wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:You all know that saying "I'll believe theory but I'm not a conspiracy theorist" is like saying "I agree with NAMBLA in principle but I'm not a pedophile."
Wow...that's pretty low.

Everyone knows that is a logical fallacy but to defend that position one would run the risk of defending an argument used by paedophiles.

See how this line of argument works? It is clever, but should be spotted and refuted immediately on a forum such as this.

By the way the tactic just described is exactly the same as the use of the phrase 'conspiracy theorist' to invalidate someone's arguments a priori...
I agree. I hope that you weren't thinking that I was digressing away from your position on my own post. I was using it to demonstrate that you can reasonably infer something as possible to be a real conspiracy rationally (not an irrational thing.)
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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:30 pm

Scott Mayers wrote: I was using it to demonstrate that you can reasonably infer something as possible to be a real conspiracy rationally (not an irrational thing.)
I wasn't suggesting anything different.
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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Scott Mayers » Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:41 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote: I was using it to demonstrate that you can reasonably infer something as possible to be a real conspiracy rationally (not an irrational thing.)
I wasn't suggesting anything different.
Then we all agree here, anyways. But I understood how djembeweaver's response to you're comment actually demonstrated another good example of this even if you weren't being serious. One could rationally prove the sensibility of pedophilia from their perspective but the very act of attempting to do so would harm the reputation of the one proposing it. It's a lose-lose scenario.
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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:05 am

Luckily most of the world doesn't give a {!#%@} about CTers.
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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Scott Mayers » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:13 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Luckily most of the world doesn't give a {!#%@} about CTers.
"Luckily"? But if and where they actually DO exist, this only assures such conspiracies only succeed better. How do we know that there isn't an intent to create those apparently most obvious conspiracy theories that aren't valid in order to divert others from paying attention to the ones that ARE real?
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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:22 am

Scott Mayers wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Luckily most of the world doesn't give a {!#%@} about CTers.
"Luckily"? But if and where they actually DO exist, this only assures such conspiracies only succeed better. How do we know that there isn't an intent to create those apparently most obvious conspiracy theories that aren't valid in order to divert others from paying attention to the ones that ARE real?
The question is pointless, Scott. You evaluate each one on its own. You dismiss the ones that don't make sense and dig deeper on the ones that do, until there's proof. Letting yourself get confused is disingenuous.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:33 am

Scott Mayers wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Luckily most of the world doesn't give a {!#%@} about CTers.
"Luckily"? But if and where they actually DO exist, this only assures such conspiracies only succeed better. How do we know that there isn't an intent to create those apparently most obvious conspiracy theories that aren't valid in order to divert others from paying attention to the ones that ARE real?
Arrggghh.. this is driving me mad. We are bogging down on adding a specific characteristic, "conspiracy theory" to a whole wide range of activities, that should be assessed on their own evidence, and not the wordy character "conspiracy" we artificially and randomly impose on some of those activities.

If I was an analyst at the US Office of Intelligence and Threat Analysis, and I was reviewing a series of complex Chinese activities concerning banking or whatever, I would make a hypothesis of what the final goal probably is, based on the evidence. The moment I throw in words like "conspiracy" I am adding mud to already murky waters.

This is why the word "Skeptic" is also becoming a disaster. No one knows what the word means any more and total idiots like Gorgeous now claim to be the "real skeptics" for attacking science. I really think the Skeptic Society would be better off, named the The Critical Thinking & Skeptic Society.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:47 am

Scott Mayers wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Luckily most of the world doesn't give a {!#%@} about CTers.
"Luckily"? But if and where they actually DO exist, this only assures such conspiracies only succeed better. How do we know that there isn't an intent to create those apparently most obvious conspiracy theories that aren't valid in order to divert others from paying attention to the ones that ARE real?
Take your anti-paranoia pills today?
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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Scott Mayers » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:50 am

supervitor wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Luckily most of the world doesn't give a {!#%@} about CTers.
"Luckily"? But if and where they actually DO exist, this only assures such conspiracies only succeed better. How do we know that there isn't an intent to create those apparently most obvious conspiracy theories that aren't valid in order to divert others from paying attention to the ones that ARE real?
The question is pointless, Scott. You evaluate each one on its own. You dismiss the ones that don't make sense and dig deeper on the ones that do, until there's proof. Letting yourself get confused is disingenuous.
It is highly relevant. If you DO have a strong conspiracy, it is in your interest to attempt to actually create a smoke-screen by advancing fake conspiracies to foster people's doubts in the concept as a whole.
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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:21 am

Scott Mayers wrote:
supervitor wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Luckily most of the world doesn't give a {!#%@} about CTers.
"Luckily"? But if and where they actually DO exist, this only assures such conspiracies only succeed better. How do we know that there isn't an intent to create those apparently most obvious conspiracy theories that aren't valid in order to divert others from paying attention to the ones that ARE real?
The question is pointless, Scott. You evaluate each one on its own. You dismiss the ones that don't make sense and dig deeper on the ones that do, until there's proof. Letting yourself get confused is disingenuous.
It is highly relevant. If you DO have a strong conspiracy, it is in your interest to attempt to actually create a smoke-screen by advancing fake conspiracies to foster people's doubts in the concept as a whole.
Just because that makes sense, it doesn't mean it's truth or it applies. I told this before: it doesn't follow, non sequitor or whatever.

Just try to apply it to a specific case and ask yourself if it makes sense

The most obvious explanation is that people are just like that, distracted and vulnerable to faulty reasoning if presented in a compelling way. Other ones, like the most proeminent ones, probably realise along the way what they say doesn't make sense, but they won't back off because they have a lot invested on it (few people are willing to back off on beliefs), and also because they can actually make a living out of it.

People being people.

That's probably the reason why the phenomenon grew so much with the advent of the internet, the new medium acts as an amplifier because it's democratic (in a sense, "universally" accessible). One hour after a US shooting there's already claims of hoax, people don't even bother to think anymore. No need for conspirators.

It's the internet being the internet.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:22 am

Scott Mayers wrote:. If you DO have a strong conspiracy, it is in your interest to attempt to actually create a smoke-screen by advancing fake conspiracies to foster people's doubts in the concept as a whole.
If I am undertaking a candid activity, I must establish diversionary activities to distract attention from my activities. (Sun Tzu)

See that wasn't that hard. I could make a rational statement without using the words "conspiracy theory". Do not taint evidence with pre conceived imposed characteristics, as that is against science.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:56 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:
See that wasn't that hard. I could make a rational statement without using the words "conspiracy theory". Do not taint evidence with pre conceived imposed characteristics, as that is against science.
But legitimizing conspiracy theories need to interject the term at every possible opportunity. "Common usage", like "all blacks are drug dealers" makes it part of the current lexicon and gives a patina of respectability.

(Personally I think there's a plot to do this. :lol: )
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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:56 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:
See that wasn't that hard. I could make a rational statement without using the words "conspiracy theory". Do not taint evidence with pre conceived imposed characteristics, as that is against science.
But legitimizing conspiracy theories needs the CTers to interject the term at every possible opportunity. "Common usage", like "all blacks are drug dealers" makes it part of the current lexicon and gives a patina of respectability.

(Personally I think there's a plot to do this. :lol: )
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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by djembeweaver » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:06 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:
djembeweaver wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:You all know that saying "I'll believe theory but I'm not a conspiracy theorist" is like saying "I agree with NAMBLA in principle but I'm not a pedophile."
Wow...that's pretty low.

Everyone knows that is a logical fallacy but to defend that position one would run the risk of defending an argument used by paedophiles.

See how this line of argument works? It is clever, but should be spotted and refuted immediately on a forum such as this.

By the way the tactic just described is exactly the same as the use of the phrase 'conspiracy theorist' to invalidate someone's arguments a priori...
I agree. I hope that you weren't thinking that I was digressing away from your position on my own post. I was using it to demonstrate that you can reasonably infer something as possible to be a real conspiracy rationally (not an irrational thing.)
Yes I get that

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by djembeweaver » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:20 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Luckily most of the world doesn't give a {!#%@} about CTers.
"Luckily"? But if and where they actually DO exist, this only assures such conspiracies only succeed better. How do we know that there isn't an intent to create those apparently most obvious conspiracy theories that aren't valid in order to divert others from paying attention to the ones that ARE real?
Careful Scott. You are dangerously close to being labelled a conspiracy theorist.

Even Mathew Ellard's argument that one has to assess each claim on its own merits rather than dismiss them a priori by categorizing them as conspiracy theories runs the risk of appearing to support conspiracy theorists. That is how poisoned the issue has become.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by djembeweaver » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:40 pm

Letting yourself get confused is disingenuous
Another gem from supervitor

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:22 pm

supervitor wrote:But anyway I'd like to ask you what's the rational of this post, on the context of the building 7 doubts discussion:

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 13#p478647
djembeweaver wrote:One other thing that I forgot to throw into the discussion was John Kerry's statement regarding building 7 that:
They made a decision based on the danger it had of destroying other things that they did it in a controlled fashion
Tell us, dj, what's the rational of inserting that? The possibility that was a slip by Kerry? He was confessing what he knew without realising it?
Just stop pretending and answer the question^, little dj.. Don't be afraid. You posted that remark from John Kerry, I'm sure you know the "rational" for bringing it up.
Or do you admit defeat and ackowledge that the conotation the OP is concerned about makes sense? You are an irrational person?

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:37 pm

"Oh please, supervitor! Don't do that to me. I wanted to show the world "truthism" can be rational! Please, let me continue pretending my beliefs are rational."

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:45 pm

Ok, son, to let you go off the hook, you're going to have to say publicly to the forum that I'm the best, you are amazed with my intelligence and you apologize to the forum for the ad hominems you tried to escape my (supervitor's) wrath.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:48 pm

"but why, supervitor? Why do you always have to go after the phony ones, why did you had to expose me?"

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:49 pm

It's just who I am, little dj, it's just who I am...

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:15 pm

I counted five in a row. I'm sure there's a name for that^.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:27 pm

A remarkable sequence?
Going a bit overboard?

Meanwhile, djembeweaver stays silent...

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by djembeweaver » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:35 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:I counted five in a row. I'm sure there's a name for that^.
Multiple personality disorder?

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:39 pm

djembeweaver wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:I counted five in a row. I'm sure there's a name for that^.
Multiple personality disorder?
How about an answer to the question you were asked, Mr. Irrational Conspiracy Theorist? Put you in a tough spot? ;)

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Morality of a Conspiracy Theorist

Post by supervitor » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:48 pm

djembeweaver, before he was caught wrote:Even when someone says something that seems preposterous ad hominem responses are never helpful...
djembeweaver, after [i]the embarrassment[/i] wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:I counted five in a row. I'm sure there's a name for that^.
Multiple personality disorder?

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:55 pm

(Science Technology and Mathematics subforum,
"Some reasoned argument desperately required" thread)

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 13#p478647
djembeweaver wrote:One other thing that I forgot to throw into the discussion was John Kerry's statement regarding building 7 that:
They made a decision based on the danger it had of destroying other things that they did it in a controlled fashion
djembeweaver, before he had lost all hope wrote: I came to this forum hoping for thoughtful and intelligent debate.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 80#p477864

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by djembeweaver » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:04 pm

A reminder of two comments made earlier in the thread. Firstly my explanation of why I choose not to engage with one particular individual:
This is probably the last time I will respond to you (you are now on my 'ignore' list) and this is the reason why:

Dismissing you as a troll was not a cop out or a way of avoiding difficult issues. I am often wrong and can accept that when criticized. I tried to engage with you and to keep the debate civil but you have gone out of your way to be as obnoxious as humanly possible. Your constant use of 'son' to belittle me is a good example.

When I look at it in the cold light of day I would have to accept that you do have a point, and that I overgeneralized in my initial comment and was, perhaps, slightly imprecise in my use of language. Had you argued your points without the insults and vitriol I might well have accepted your criticism...you may have disabused me of some 'silly' notions and helped me come to a better understanding of the issues at hand. Instead you insulted and belittled in the most unpleasant way.

A troll's intention is usually to provoke an emotional outburst from the subject of their abuse and I don't know whether or not that was your intention. Perhaps, therefore, 'troll' is not the right word. Maybe we'll stick to '{!#%@}' instead. Whatever. As I said I tried to engage on the issues and you proved yourself to be so obnoxious that I have no choice but to ignore you.
And secondly the opinion of a major contributor to this site on that same individual:
her rules. It's Norma Blum, trolling under a sock puppet name and pretending to be young. Remember, Norma is in pain and wears magical magnetic pain removers. She came back as Supervitor, when we found out our self appointed "super skeptic" believes in magic

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:17 pm

Ohh, djembeweaver is upset.. He's trying the "Ellard strategy"!

I'm more interested you reply what you were asked,

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 50#p478812

after all you're only on the spot for stuff you have written here.

But you can try this path of kissing Ellard's ass, I mean I was already able to make Ellard and his "skeptic gang" to join forces with a climate change "denier" against me: the joining of forces with a "truther" is definitely another one in the book for me.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:27 pm

djembeweaver wrote: And secondly the opinion of a major contributor to this site on that same individual:
her rules. It's Norma Blum, trolling under a sock puppet name and pretending to be young. Remember, Norma is in pain and wears magical magnetic pain removers. She came back as Supervitor, when we found out our self appointed "super skeptic" believes in magic
Djembeweaver also tries the "argument by number of posts". He thinks the more posts a member has, the more valuable his opinion is. Evaluating the opinion by itself? Figure out the context? Of course not, it has already been established little dj doesn't belong on the rational realm.

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:31 pm

It's like John Kerry's "opinion" on the fall of building 7.
:lol:

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:31 am

scrmbldggs wrote:I counted five in a row. I'm sure there's a name for that^.
Djembeweaver got Norma supervitor to post five posts in a row. I only got her up to four. We have a new Champion! :D

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Confessions of a troll that pretends to "go after trolls"

Post by supervitor » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:59 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:I counted five in a row. I'm sure there's a name for that^.
Djembeweaver got Norma supervitor to post five posts in a row. I only got her up to four. We have a new Champion! :D

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:02 am

Forgot who was supposed to say what?
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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:04 am

Yep. That seems like a confession of trolling behaviour to me..

(not that he is successful in his attempts, though. Supervitor just seems to enjoy destruction of silly ideas by multiple angles, multiple times, and written in a style enjoyable to the reader)

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:10 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Forgot who was supposed to say what?
dj is due to explain the rational of his quotation of John Kerry's "confession"
Scott Mayers is probably also due to say something.
Ellard is just doing what he usually does: inventing "Ellards" and treating the forum like he doesn't owe respect to the readers..

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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:38 am

And you have your head up your ass as usual.
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Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Post by supervitor » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:57 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:And you have your head up your ass as usual.
Hmmm, I disagree.. Can you explain why you see it like that, please?

Am I making too much sense, is that it?
Have I terribly embarrassed your religious leader, Pope Matthew, by exposing him, once again?

I'd say your description doesn't fit, they all just got what they asked for..