A Peace Conspiracy

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:51 am

OOB.....feeling a bit fiesty tonight. Out of character................but, variety is always nice.
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by OutOfBreath » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:05 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:51 am
OOB.....feeling a bit fiesty tonight. Out of character................but, variety is always nice.
Just looking for clarifications, really.
I know Matt is being mean to Tom in a dogged manner, yet he is not entirely without a point imo. Tom seems to be playing loose with conflating opposition to himself with "the enemy" (the neo-cons). I just want to make clear how false that dichotomy is. (you're either neo-con or ron paul-fan)

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:32 am

Labels are a tough, almost always unproductive, way to analyze/argue any issue. Better to go point by point. EG: should snowden be prosecuted for espionage violations, or should Netanyahu be voted out of office........etc. Specific small issues. Labels are just a diversion.
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Tom Palven is an Idiot

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:23 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:05 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:51 am
OOB.....feeling a bit fiesty tonight. Out of character................but, variety is always nice.
I just want to make clear how false that dichotomy is. (you're either neo-con or ron paul-fan)

Peace
Dan
No OOB, the dichotomy is being in favor of free trade, peace, and truth, like Ron Paul and Edward Snowden or being in favor of aggression, trade sanctions, and lies, like John Bolton, Elliot Abrams, James Clapper, and the rest of the deep, neocon state, that your comrade-in-arms, "Matt Ellard," consistently defends.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Tom Palven is an Idiot

Post by OutOfBreath » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:32 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:23 pm
OutOfBreath wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:05 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:51 am
OOB.....feeling a bit fiesty tonight. Out of character................but, variety is always nice.
I just want to make clear how false that dichotomy is. (you're either neo-con or ron paul-fan)

Peace
Dan
No OOB, the dichotomy is being in favor of free trade, peace, and truth, like Ron Paul and Edward Snowden or being in favor of aggression, trade sanctions, and lies, like John Bolton, Elliot Abrams, James Clapper, and the rest of the deep, neocon state, that your comrade-in-arms, "Matt Ellard," consistently defends.
Ah, so that is the false dichotomy then. Free trade/Peace/Truth vs Agression/sanctions/lies. There rarely are dichotomies in politics, Tom. Free trade/sanctions is a spectrum, peace/agression often about definitions, and truth/lies often very dependent on standpoint. And who says free trade must go together with peace and truth? Most often free trade is enforced vigorously by a dominant power which also sanctions opponents. What's aggressive or not depends on what side of the "free trade" you're on, and truth is a very rare commodity on any side, whereas lies or spin is employed by all...

There is a distinction between wanting peace, happiness and chocolate cake for all vs the likelihood of that happening with one's preferred political dogma. Costs you nothing to wish for the former, but extremely hard to show how that will come about if events were to happen "your way". Libertarians have yet to follow thru on the second part here. They're good at criticizing, sometimes even have points in that regard, but have no solutions apart from "let god sort them out".

Anywho, I pulled that abit further than I had in mind. Suffice to say, there are false dichotomies in play here, with a pretty naive disposition towards the motivations of people in power globally (not just USA-ppl).

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: Tom Palven is an Idiot

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:45 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:32 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:23 pm
OutOfBreath wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:05 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:51 am
OOB.....feeling a bit fiesty tonight. Out of character................but, variety is always nice.
I just want to make clear how false that dichotomy is. (you're either neo-con or ron paul-fan)

Peace
Dan
No OOB, the dichotomy is being in favor of free trade, peace, and truth, like Ron Paul and Edward Snowden or being in favor of aggression, trade sanctions, and lies, like John Bolton, Elliot Abrams, James Clapper, and the rest of the deep, neocon state, that your comrade-in-arms, "Matt Ellard," consistently defends.
Ah, so that is the false dichotomy then. Free trade/Peace/Truth vs Agression/sanctions/lies. There rarely are dichotomies in politics, Tom. Free trade/sanctions is a spectrum, peace/agression often about definitions, and truth/lies often very dependent on standpoint. And who says free trade must go together with peace and truth? Most often free trade is enforced vigorously by a dominant power which also sanctions opponents. What's aggressive or not depends on what side of the "free trade" you're on, and truth is a very rare commodity on any side, whereas lies or spin is employed by all...

There is a distinction between wanting peace, happiness and chocolate cake for all vs the likelihood of that happening with one's preferred political dogma. Costs you nothing to wish for the former, but extremely hard to show how that will come about if events were to happen "your way". Libertarians have yet to follow thru on the second part here. They're good at criticizing, sometimes even have points in that regard, but have no solutions apart from "let god sort them out".

Anywho, I pulled that abit further than I had in mind. Suffice to say, there are false dichotomies in play here, with a pretty naive disposition towards the motivations of people in power globally (not just USA-ppl).

Peace
Dan
I'll stand by my naïve observations, including the observation that the US deep state is trying to strangle Russia's oil and gas exports, and thus it's economy, along with toppling other people's governments. YMMV.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:07 pm

"US deep state." //// Really? You can't avoid the very loudest of dog whistles? Its not naive to misdirect the fact that it is the express policy of the USA to "strangle Russias oil and gas exports and to topple other peoples governments." its just retarded.
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Tom Palven is an Idiot

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:44 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:07 pm
"US deep state." //// Really? You can't avoid the very loudest of dog whistles? Its not naive to misdirect the fact that it is the express policy of the USA to "strangle Russias oil and gas exports and to topple other peoples governments." its just retarded.
I disagree.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:02 am

Tom Palven wrote: Fact is, you are a consistent apologist for lying, unelected, deep state neoconservatives, jumping into threads to defend their actions.
No Tom. I am the socialist who supports Iran and the EU's protection of Iran. You keep forgetting that on purpose.

You are the extreme right wing idiot who spams pro-Trump blogs onto our forum, demands the eradication of public health and public education, and supports Taliban for its banning of female voting rights. :lol:

May I remind you that Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden were unelected employees who went against their elected directors. That's why you refuse to define your Fox News "Depp State Conspiracy" :lol:

Tom Palven, the Taliban lover, will now define the Fox News "Deep State Conspiracy" and apply it to Snowden and Manning. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Tom Palven is an Idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:06 am

Tom Palven wrote:I'll stand by my naïve observations, including the observation that the US deep state is trying to strangle Russia's oil and gas exports, and thus it's economy, along with toppling other people's governments. YMMV.
1) Define the "Deep State Conspiracy"
2) Name who controls the Deep State Conspiracy
3) Show hos these people have "strangled" Russian oil and gas exports?


You can't do any of this can you? You can only link to pro-Trump blogs that use the "bogey-man" Deep State conspiracy claim. You don't even read the links yourself. :lol:
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Re: Tom Palven is an Idiot

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:29 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:06 am
Tom Palven wrote:I'll stand by my naïve observations, including the observation that the US deep state is trying to strangle Russia's oil and gas exports, and thus it's economy, along with toppling other people's governments. YMMV.
1) Define the "Deep State Conspiracy"
2) Name who controls the Deep State Conspiracy
3) Show hos these people have "strangled" Russian oil and gas exports?
I've explained all the above ad nauseum, so let's talk about you.

You are a consistent apologist for all lying, unelected, deep state neoconservatives like John Brennan and Elliot Abrams, and you jump into threads to defend their actions.

You also jump into threads to demonize whistleblowers like Edward Snowden and Glenn Greenwald, who reveal the truth.

But yes, I’m an idiot to try to talk sense to a neocon sympathizer who steadfastly believes that state lies and aggression are the answers to everything.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Tom Palven is an Idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:46 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:1) Define the "Deep State Conspiracy"
2) Name who controls the Deep State Conspiracy
3) Show hos these people have "strangled" Russian oil and gas exports?
Tom Palven wrote:I've explained all the above ad nauseum
Nope, You never have. . You only linked to the Wikipedia page on the Deep State, which clearly stated it wasn't real and just a conspiracy theory. You can't name one member. You can't even write a coherent description that doesn't include Chelsea Manning or Edward Snowden.

Tom Palven, the Taliban lover wrote: You are a consistent apologist for all lying, unelected, deep state neoconservatives like John Brennan.
John Brennan says Iran is not a problem. I support John Brennan in that policy. You spam pro-Trump blogs here to promote John Bolton's agenda and then deny it.

John Brennan goes off on Trump's Iran moves: This is 'madness'
https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... is-madness
Tom Palven, the Taliban lover wrote: You also jump into threads to demonize whistleblowers like Edward Snowden and Glenn Greenwald, who reveal the truth.
You claim unelected employees who defy their elected bosses are the "Deep State". That would be Snowden and Manning right?
Tom Palven, the Taliban lover wrote: But yes, I’m an idiot
Yes. You are very very stupid and a right wing extremist.

You are against any public health
You are against all public education,
You want to close the Federal Reserve and reintroduce the gold standard,
You support Taliban and its ban on female voting rights.
:lol:

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Re: Tom Palven is an Idiot

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:24 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:46 am
Yes. You are very very stupid and a right wing extremist.
Yes, I'm stupid to waste my time on a lying hardcore deep state neocon apologist.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:06 pm

Tom, I really think you could clear this whole thing up by answering these three questions.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:46 am
1) Define the "Deep State Conspiracy"
2) Name who controls the Deep State Conspiracy
3) Show hos these people have "strangled" Russian oil and gas exports?
I'm not interested in any mudslinging between you and Matthew. Please just answer the questions. You can provide a link if you want, but please only do so as a citation for your answers and not as the answers themselves.
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:06 pm
Tom, I really think you could clear this whole thing up by answering these three questions.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:46 am
1) Define the "Deep State Conspiracy"
2) Name who controls the Deep State Conspiracy
3) Show hos these people have "strangled" Russian oil and gas exports?
I'm not interested in any mudslinging between you and Matthew. Please just answer the questions. You can provide a link if you want, but please only do so as a citation for your answers and not as the answers themselves.
1. I'd call it a cabal or a junta rather than a conspiracy.
ca·bal
[kəˈbäl, kəˈbal]

NOUN
a secret political clique or faction.
"a cabal of dissidents"
synonyms:
clique · faction · coterie · group · set · band · party · camp · gang · ring · cell · sect · caucus · league · confederacy · junta · pressure group · ginger group · push · junto · camarilla

It works behind the scenes. We can't see it, but like the wind we can feel its presence, which can be very destructive. It's probably made up of top unelected career bureaucrats at the Pentagon and State Dept.

2. All evidence points to the Central Intelligence Agency being at the head of this cabal or coordinating committee.

3. a. The US deep state incited Ukrainian fascists to try to deprive Russia of it Crimean warm-water port on the Black Sea.

b. The US deep state provoked a Syrian rebellion to try to deprive Russia of its only Mediterranean port and military base.

c. The US deep state tried to overthrow the Turkish government because of its cooperation with Russia.

d. The US deep state is trying to overthrow the government of Venezuela, which sits on top of the world's largest oil reserves and cooperates
with Russia

e, The US deep state has tried to block the building of Russian oil and gas pipelines in Europe and the Mid-East, and has placed sanctions on
countries that cooperate with Russia.

f. The US deep state has blocked a South Korea to Moscow railway.

And, the US deep state sucks up to the world's most vicious elite despots:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=pi ... &FORM=IGRE

Don't ask me to document this. I'm satisfied that what I'm saying is true, and you can take it or any part of it, or leave it all.

Like Roger Cooke, I also have other things to do.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:59 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 pm
Austin Harper wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:06 pm
Tom, I really think you could clear this whole thing up by answering these three questions.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:46 am
1) Define the "Deep State Conspiracy"
2) Name who controls the Deep State Conspiracy
3) Show hos these people have "strangled" Russian oil and gas exports?
I'm not interested in any mudslinging between you and Matthew. Please just answer the questions. You can provide a link if you want, but please only do so as a citation for your answers and not as the answers themselves.
1. I'd call it a cabal or a junta rather than a conspiracy.
...
It works behind the scenes. We can't see it, but like the wind we can feel its presence, which can be very destructive. It's probably made up of top unelected career bureaucrats at the Pentagon and State Dept.
Thank you, that was a nice, succinct definition.
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 pm
2. All evidence points to the Central Intelligence Agency being at the head of this cabal or coordinating committee.
What evidence? And who at the CIA? Director Gina Haspel, who was nominated by President Trump? The previous director and current Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, who was nominated by President Trump? Deputy Director Vaughn Bishop, who was nominated by President Trump?
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 pm
3. a. The US deep state incited Ukrainian fascists to try to deprive Russia of it Crimean warm-water port on the Black Sea.
b. The US deep state provoked a Syrian rebellion to try to deprive Russia of its only Mediterranean port and military base.
c. The US deep state tried to overthrow the Turkish government because of its cooperation with Russia.
d. The US deep state is trying to overthrow the government of Venezuela, which sits on top of the world's largest oil reserves and cooperates with Russia
e, The US deep state has tried to block the building of Russian oil and gas pipelines in Europe and the Mid-East, and has placed sanctions on countries that cooperate with Russia.
f. The US deep state has blocked a South Korea to Moscow railway.
What evidence do you have that any of those actions were carried out by the Deep State? Also, Crimea legally belonged to Ukraine and has since 1954, until Russia annexed it illegally and the US isn't trying to overthrow the government of Venezuela. They recognize, along with most of the rest of the world that the Maduro rigged the election and they support Valenzuela actually following its laws on what to do in this situation.
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 pm
And, the US deep state sucks up to the world's most vicious elite despots:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=pi ... &FORM=IGRE

Don't ask me to document this. I'm satisfied that what I'm saying is true, and you can take it or any part of it, or leave it all.

Like Roger Cooke, I also have other things to do.
I absolutely will ask you to document this. You can't just assert claims like this and expect anybody to take them seriously without evidence.
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:13 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:59 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 pm
Austin Harper wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:06 pm
Tom, I really think you could clear this whole thing up by answering these three questions.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:46 am
1) Define the "Deep State Conspiracy"
2) Name who controls the Deep State Conspiracy
3) Show hos these people have "strangled" Russian oil and gas exports?
I'm not interested in any mudslinging between you and Matthew. Please just answer the questions. You can provide a link if you want, but please only do so as a citation for your answers and not as the answers themselves.
1. I'd call it a cabal or a junta rather than a conspiracy.
...
It works behind the scenes. We can't see it, but like the wind we can feel its presence, which can be very destructive. It's probably made up of top unelected career bureaucrats at the Pentagon and State Dept.
Thank you, that was a nice, succinct definition.
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 pm
2. All evidence points to the Central Intelligence Agency being at the head of this cabal or coordinating committee.
What evidence? And who at the CIA? Director Gina Haspel, who was nominated by President Trump? The previous director and current Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, who was nominated by President Trump? Deputy Director Vaughn Bishop, who was nominated by President Trump?
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 pm
3. a. The US deep state incited Ukrainian fascists to try to deprive Russia of it Crimean warm-water port on the Black Sea.
b. The US deep state provoked a Syrian rebellion to try to deprive Russia of its only Mediterranean port and military base.
c. The US deep state tried to overthrow the Turkish government because of its cooperation with Russia.
d. The US deep state is trying to overthrow the government of Venezuela, which sits on top of the world's largest oil reserves and cooperates with Russia
e, The US deep state has tried to block the building of Russian oil and gas pipelines in Europe and the Mid-East, and has placed sanctions on countries that cooperate with Russia.
f. The US deep state has blocked a South Korea to Moscow railway.
What evidence do you have that any of those actions were carried out by the Deep State? Also, Crimea legally belonged to Ukraine and has since 1954, until Russia annexed it illegally and the US isn't trying to overthrow the government of Venezuela. They recognize, along with most of the rest of the world that the Maduro rigged the election and they support Valenzuela actually following its laws on what to do in this situation.
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 pm
And, the US deep state sucks up to the world's most vicious elite despots:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=pi ... &FORM=IGRE

Don't ask me to document this. I'm satisfied that what I'm saying is true, and you can take it or any part of it, or leave it all.

Like Roger Cooke, I also have other things to do.
I absolutely will ask you to document this. You can't just assert claims like this and expect anybody to take them seriously without evidence.
I gave you my answers, my honest opinions, and I really don't give a leaping lap dance whether you take them seriously or not.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:20 pm

Lack of evidence noted
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:45 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:20 pm
Lack of evidence noted
:lol:
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:01 pm

I don't know why you're laughing. You put forward a ridiculous theory about a shadow government but can't say who's in it other the "probably the CIA" and can't provide any evidence that they exist.
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:50 am

Tom Palven wrote: 1. I'd call it a cabal or a junta rather than a conspiracy.
Cabals and juntas need to communicate with members.. Tell us how your magical "Deep State conspiracy" bogey-man coordinate itself? Are you saying you have no evidence at all? :lol:
Tom Palven wrote: It works behind the scenes.
You previously claimed John Brennan and James Clapper are leaders of the Deep State. Both of them are retired. How do you claim they "work behind the scenes"? :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:It's probably made up of top unelected career bureaucrats at the Pentagon and State Dept.
But Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning were un-elected bureaucrats in these organisations . Are you claiming they belong to the Deep State conspiracy. If not why not? :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:All evidence points to the Central Intelligence Agency being at the head of this cabal or coordinating committee.
Trump appointed the last two directors. Are you now claiming Trump runs the "Deep State conspiracy with Snowden and Manning? :lol: :lol:

Tom Palven wrote: The US deep state incited Ukrainian fascists to try to deprive Russia of it Crimean warm-water port on the Black Sea.
Do you mean Sevastopol which used to be part of Ukraine, when Russia assigned the Crimea to compensate for Ukraine's industry losses after WWII? Russia simply took Crimea back when the Ukraine asked to join NATO.
Tom Palven wrote: I also have other things to do.
Yes. You are spamming your extremist right wing "Ron Paul Institute" propaganda on other forums as well. :lol: :lol:

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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:53 am

Tom Palven wrote: I gave you my answers, my honest opinions, and I really don't give a leaping lap dance whether you take them seriously or not.
Please please please Tom Palven......tell us again how the Vichy French government took over Afghanistan. That's your best joke so far............it is a joke right? :lol: :lol:
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"Ellard's" BS Remains Constant

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:11 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:50 am
Tom Palven wrote: I also have other things to do.
Yes. You are spamming your extremist right wing "Ron Paul Institute" propaganda on other forums as well. :lol: :lol:
More BS.

Name one and provide a link from this year, a-hole.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Wordbird » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:02 pm

What I want to know is why Tom Palven is afraid to engage in a debate on an actual libertarian forum. (I googled his name.)

He posts an article there and leaves. He won't talk to anyone.

Could it be that he knows his philosophy is extremely anti-intellectual?

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:32 am

Wordbird wrote: What I want to know is why Tom Palven is afraid to engage in a debate on an actual libertarian forum. (I googled his name.)
I caught him lying on other forums. He has pretended to be an economist when he is actually a forest ranger.

"Conclusion: I was disappointed the book, finding it to be very outdated. Although it was not required reading in my economics courses at Cornell, (The Wealth of Nations was) I had taken it out of the library and perused it, and I thought I had found it to be more useful than I find it now."
http://www.discussionworldforum.com/sho ... php?t=4854

He never engages himself and only spams propaganda because he hasn't got a clue what the propaganda is talking about. He still thinks the Vichy French government moved to Afghanistan. He mostly spams propaganda from a pro-Trump blog called "Anti-War" and the extreme right "Ron Paul Institute" website.

I note that every now and then he slips and his right wing views become more obvious.
"I pegged Oleg as an intelligent offspring of Jewish communist parents, the last people in their community to distribute Workers World, not exactly classical liberals........."
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=30218&p=701965#p701965



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Wordbird
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Wordbird » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:12 am

I have nothing against right-wingers. I'm just curious why a libertarian won't engage on a libertarian forum, for libertarians.

If you detest libertarians so much that you won't talk to them, you probably are not one.

I've encountered a lot of frankly violently anti-intellectual libertarians. It seems to be the norm to spew vitriol at anyone who asks a question. The entire philosophy is more dogmatic than Catholicism. If you don't accept that the free market does everything better, you're a heretic. No debate needed, just shut the person down by dogpiling.

My only problem with Tom Palven is that he seems to realise this, and still support the philosophy. If he thought he could get an intelligent response out of libertarians, he'd do more than post articles and leave. He'd be willing to engage.

But he absolutely realises engaging with a libertarian is stepping foot in a chimp cage at the zoo, and that he's going to get {!#%@} flung at him.

Why would someone who demonstrates that he knows this still call himself libertarian?

http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bi ... 236859/0#0

This is an example of what you get when you ask a question of libertarians. The responses range from outright nastiness to being talked down to for not realising it's all the government's fault, of course. I feel terrible for this poor soul who made the topic.

So why won't you engage with libertarians, Tom? Do you understand the philosophy is dogmatic and anti-intellectual? Are you dogmatic and anti-intellectual?

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:20 am

Wordbird wrote: I've encountered a lot of frankly violently anti-intellectual libertarians. It seems to be the norm to spew vitriol at anyone who asks a question. The entire philosophy is more dogmatic than Catholicism. If you don't accept that the free market does everything better, you're a heretic. No debate needed, just shut the person down by dogpiling.
Our host, Michael Shermer once claimed he was a Libertarian, probably from the first glance view that it respects the free choice of others. However he was soon castigated for not seeing the more extremist aspects. ( No public education, no public social security, return to gold standard, no gun control etc) . I believe Mr Shermer retreated from his first claim..

The current USA Libertarian Party seems to have no politicians in federal or state office and threw out Ron Paul for going even more to the right. The international Libertarian coop in Switzerland does seem to distribute "theory" to country by country Libertarian parties. There are two Russian Libertarian party members in the Russian Duma. They were arrested and released in 2016. I believe that there are commonly supported talk topics promoted by the international Libertarian coop and Russian foreign policy propaganda, including USA isolationism. I am a little suspicious of Russian interference as a future meddling method in the 2020 USA elections to cause more chaos.

You may have read Tom Palven saying how he prefers "Russia Today" to general USA media sources. Tom Palven does post a lot of Russian foreign propaganda talk points. I really don't believe Tom Palven actually reads half the links he posts here.
:D

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:02 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:20 am
Our host, Michael Shermer once claimed he was a Libertarian, probably from the first glance view that it respects the free choice of others. However he was soon castigated for not seeing the more extremist aspects. I believe Mr Shermer retreated from his first claim..
The Wikipedia article on Dr. Michael Shermer, under Personal Life, paragraph 2, states that "Politically, Shermer has described himself as a life-long libertarian."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shermer

This does not necessarily mean that he is now, or has ever been, a member of the LP, but it doesn't mention his retreating from libertarian ideas after he "was soon castigated."

Do you have a link to this, or is this just another "Matthew Ellard fact?"
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:39 pm

There is a huge difference between labeling yourself as an adherent to any political/philosophical ideal and aligning/admiring any other person/group/movement that claims the same. I label myself chiefly a pragmatist but on other days I might have chosen any of the other admired labels in my signature along with 20 more not listed. Its the interplay of all the labels that makes group adherence problematic as any group/movement typically will pare itself down to slavish conformity to the one idea/label chosen. Intelligent people don't do that. Stupid people join groups.
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Austin Harper » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:26 am

I don't remember which episode this was, but recently on an episode of Science Salon he said something to the effect of "I used to consider myself a libertarian".
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:34 am

Austin Harper wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:59 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 pm
Austin Harper wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:06 pm
Tom, I really think you could clear this whole thing up by answering these three questions.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:46 am
1) Define the "Deep State Conspiracy"
2) Name who controls the Deep State Conspiracy
3) Show hos these people have "strangled" Russian oil and gas exports?
I'm not interested in any mudslinging between you and Matthew. Please just answer the questions. You can provide a link if you want, but please only do so as a citation for your answers and not as the answers themselves.
1. I'd call it a cabal or a junta rather than a conspiracy.
...
It works behind the scenes. We can't see it, but like the wind we can feel its presence, which can be very destructive. It's probably made up of top unelected career bureaucrats at the Pentagon and State Dept.
Thank you, that was a nice, succinct definition.
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 pm
2. All evidence points to the Central Intelligence Agency being at the head of this cabal or coordinating committee.
What evidence? And who at the CIA? Director Gina Haspel, who was nominated by President Trump? The previous director and current Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, who was nominated by President Trump? Deputy Director Vaughn Bishop, who was nominated by President Trump?
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 pm
3. a. The US deep state incited Ukrainian fascists to try to deprive Russia of it Crimean warm-water port on the Black Sea.
b. The US deep state provoked a Syrian rebellion to try to deprive Russia of its only Mediterranean port and military base.
c. The US deep state tried to overthrow the Turkish government because of its cooperation with Russia.
d. The US deep state is trying to overthrow the government of Venezuela, which sits on top of the world's largest oil reserves and cooperates with Russia
e, The US deep state has tried to block the building of Russian oil and gas pipelines in Europe and the Mid-East, and has placed sanctions on countries that cooperate with Russia.
f. The US deep state has blocked a South Korea to Moscow railway.
What evidence do you have that any of those actions were carried out by the Deep State? Also, Crimea legally belonged to Ukraine and has since 1954, until Russia annexed it illegally and the US isn't trying to overthrow the government of Venezuela. They recognize, along with most of the rest of the world that the Maduro rigged the election and they support Valenzuela actually following its laws on what to do in this situation.
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 pm
And, the US deep state sucks up to the world's most vicious elite despots:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=pi ... &FORM=IGRE

Don't ask me to document this. I'm satisfied that what I'm saying is true, and you can take it or any part of it, or leave it all.

Like Roger Cooke, I also have other things to do.
I absolutely will ask you to document this. You can't just assert claims like this and expect anybody to take them seriously without evidence.
Austin, the US has a President and his staff, and it has a Congress composed of Congressmen and Senators elected by "the people."

However, it was unelected bureaucrats at the Treasury Dept. (probably with acquiescence from the rest of the "steering committee" including top dogs at the CIA and Pentagon) that increased sanctions on North Korea, not the President or Congress.
https://news.antiwar.com/2019/03/22/tru ... sanctions/

I assert that it is THIS KIND OF THING, that goes on all the time, the overthrow of the elected parliament in Egypt, the attempted coups in Turkey and Venezuela, and on and on, that is evidence of this steering committee, or what one might call, for lack of a better term, a "deep state."
Last edited by Tom Palven on Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by OutOfBreath » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:43 am

Those unelected bureaucrats enforce the laws that congress has made regarding sanctions. The president have now vetoed that for some reason. Part of your royalesque presidential powers i guess.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:50 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:43 am
Those unelected bureaucrats enforce the laws that congress has made regarding sanctions. The president have now vetoed that for some reason. Part of your royalesque presidential powers i guess.

Peace
Dan
The royalesque deep state:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by OutOfBreath » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:55 am

No, the royalesque president you have that can veto congress pretty much at will.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:01 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:55 am
No, the royalesque president you have that can veto congress pretty much at will.

Peace
Dan
But can he veto the deep state when it does such things as overthrowing elected governments?

Do you recall that Trump wanted to release the thousands of Kennedy murder documents that have remained secret for 50 odd years, as he was supposedly required to do by law, but said that the CIA "wouldn't allow" him to do it?

And do you remember that Chuck Schumer said that Trump shouldn't mess with the CIA because "they have six ways from Sunday to get back at you?"

If you can connect some dots you can see who is actually running this country.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by OutOfBreath » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:29 am

The insanely rich money people. I know.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert