A Peace Conspiracy

Who else knows what we know, Jerry?
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by OutOfBreath » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:30 pm

My interpretation is that trump has a tendency to pull {!#%@} out of his arse surprising all his employees continously. As the bureaucrats struggle to put said {!#%@} into a reasonable frame given alliances and internationally agreed treaties, they will have to shave off corners of trumps gaffes somewhat. If trump had had any experience at all with politics and diplomacy he would understand that he needs to inform and instruct his own people and have them figure out what can be said and done BEFORE he starts mouthing off. Then his administration wouldnt be quite the clown show that it is.

Ps: Boltons entry into the administration should put a definite end to "trump the man of peace" BS.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:27 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:30 pm
Ps: Boltons entry into the administration should put a definite end to "trump the man of peace" BS.
Peace
Dan

Escept for Elizabeth Warren, Jim Webb, and Trump, can you name any other US politicians who are actually trying to reduce US military activity and are not talking about accelerating antagonism toward Iran, Russia, China, North Korea, and increasing US intervention in Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Poland/Crimea, etc., and risk losing MIC campaign contributions?
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2019/0 ... /23633027/

Peace,
Tom
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by OutOfBreath » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:23 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:27 pm
OutOfBreath wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:30 pm
Ps: Boltons entry into the administration should put a definite end to "trump the man of peace" BS.
Peace
Dan

Escept for Elizabeth Warren, Jim Webb, and Trump, can you name any other US politicians who are actually trying to reduce US military activity and are not talking about accelerating antagonism toward Iran, Russia, China, North Korea, and increasing US intervention in Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Poland/Crimea, etc., and risk losing MIC campaign contributions?
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2019/0 ... /23633027/

Peace,
Tom
You know Trump is all for those as well, except conveniently where russia is involved... He is either completely incompetent àt diplomacy ( a real possibility I'll grant), or he is giving the russians all he can. Ignoring ukraine, retreating syria, weakening us alliances... Anyway, Trump is a bellicose mf both internationally and domestically, just not against russia. (Earning him top marks from russia's mouthpiece RT)

Plenty us politicians sound peacy before they are enrolled in the white house. Then realities happen to them and they quickly moderate themselves. Those antagonisms are always there in international relations and is a two/multiple way street.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:46 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:23 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:27 pm
OutOfBreath wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:30 pm
Ps: Boltons entry into the administration should put a definite end to "trump the man of peace" BS.
Peace
Dan

Escept for Elizabeth Warren, Jim Webb, and Trump, can you name any other US politicians who are actually trying to reduce US military activity and are not talking about accelerating antagonism toward Iran, Russia, China, North Korea, and increasing US intervention in Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Poland/Crimea, etc., and risk losing MIC campaign contributions?
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2019/0 ... /23633027/

Peace,
Tom
Plenty US politicians sound peacy before they are enrolled in the white house. Then realities happen to them and they quickly moderate themselves.

Peace
Dan
Obama seemed sincere in favoring the Arab Spring democratic movement, but the reality was that the US CENTCOM aided and abetted the overthrow of the handily-elected Egyptian parliamentary majority of the Peace and Justice Party headed by Dr. Mohammed Morsi, and then, as you said, the realities sank in that he was Commander-in-Chief in name only. The "realities" are sometimes called the deep state.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by OutOfBreath » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:04 am

No, the realities is international politics which isnt always pretty. The reality often is to choose between several bad outcomes where it often happens that use of the military will end up being least bad. (Or at least the best according to a country's interests) It's a game you can't stop playing since the others will continue regardless.

Can you like once acknowledge that the us isnt behind everything and that the other countries can be just as cynical pursuing their interests?

How about:
Russia annexing Crimea and waging proxy war in Ukraine?
Russia massively bombing Syrian cities to support Assad?
China laying claim to and use force in the south china sea?

I can go on.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:46 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:04 am


Can you like once acknowledge that the us isnt behind everything and that the other countries can be just as cynical pursuing their interests?

How about:
1. Russia annexing Crimea and waging proxy war in Ukraine?
2. Russia massively bombing Syrian cities to support Assad?
3. China laying claim to and use force in the south china sea?

I can go on.

Peace
Dan
Not with the examples you gave.

1. Russia has long had a naval base on the Crimean peninsula as it's Black Sea port, and the US encouraged Ukrainian fascists to rebel. See the last paragraph here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

2. The US demanded regime change in Syria to deny Russia of it's Mediterranean port. Assad is a dictator, but not as brutal a dictator as al-Sisi of Egypt or the brutal Saudi royal theocracy that the US supports.

3. It's called the South China Sea, not Chesapeake Bay or the Gulf of Mexico.

If you care to go on, please do.

Apparently, you still haven't read Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace by Gore Vidal, Swords into Plowshares by Ron Paul, or any of William Blum's books, yet.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:40 pm

TP: please explain: do you really think other countries don't have their own territorial hegemonic interests....or was it just the three examples given your refutation of which was not directly responsive.

What does labeling a portion of any map anything, including South China Seas got to do with the realities of anything?
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:15 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:40 pm
TP: please explain: do you really think other countries don't have their own territorial hegemonic interests....or was it just the three examples given your refutation of which was not directly responsive.

What does labeling a portion of any map anything, including South China Seas got to do with the realities of anything?

If you have read Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace by Gore Vidal, Swords into Plowshares by Ron Paul, or any of William Blum's books, I won't try to explain anything further, except to say that imho US foreign policy is a far cry from what one would expect of Ronald Reagan's "shining beacon on a hill," and from what most Americans seem to believe it is.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:04 pm

TP--thats totally nonresponsive to my questions.

Would you please read and try again? I've already complimented you for doing this previously.........keep it up.
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:10 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:04 pm
TP--thats totally nonresponsive to my questions.

Would you please read and try again? I've already complimented you for doing this previously.........keep it up.


If you have NOT read Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace by Gore Vidal, Swords into Plowshares by Ron Paul, or any of William Blum's books, I recommend that you do. Don't be afraid to learn what may at first seem painful. The truth will set you free.

I won't try to explain anything further, except to say that imho US foreign policy is a far cry from what one would expect of Ronald Reagan's "shining beacon on a hill," and a far from what Americans have been taught since childhood and seem to continue to believe it.

You really can't compare the size of the US military budget and the amount of US military intervention with any other country or the next six countries put together. It takes seven:
https://www.nationalpriorities.org/camp ... -vs-world/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:52 pm

TP--thats totally nonresponsive to my original questions....and remains quite awkward as an explanation as to why you wont.

Would you please read and try again? I've already complimented you for doing this previously.........recognize your own paraphrasing is good for YOU as well.

Your thinking/presentation is fuzzy:
You really can't compare the size of the US military budget
......and then that is exactly what you do. Its in the DEFINITION of the word: "compare."

It makes me think you "may" not understand what you read, so you shrink from the request. In the nature of what may at first seem painful. The truth will set you free.

What in the World do you think is "painful" to learn? The truth. VERY DUBIOUS AND TWISTED STATEMENTS. as if you take no pleasure in having your ideas/facts challenged? The very opposite from my experience.

Hmmmm.....is it the words you used, or the baseline ideas you actually have? Either is bad..............your can learn the words: buy a dictionary.
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:42 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:52 pm

Would you please read and try again?

What in the World do you think is "painful" to learn?

I would compare the pain to what Vladimir Pozner described in Parting With Illusions, the pain of finding out that all you were taught, all you firmly believed about the wonders of the Soviet Union, were an illusion.

Most US citizens still believe deeply in what they were taught in grade school, that the US is the end-all and be-all, the most benevolent and generous country in the history of the world, and they have not even begun to deal with the pain of accepting the facts and dealing with their illusions. They view such things as the Vietnam War and the atrocities at Abu Ghraib as minor aberrations, and ignore the killing of innocent men, women, and children by US drone-fired rockets every single day.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:05 pm

Well, TP: you did not write to most us citizens, you wrote to me. A slight but important difference...............to me.

OK..........you won't answer the reasonable question put to you. I'll leave you to Matts kind attention. He does the same thing so doesn't notice.
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:54 pm

Tom Palven wrote: 1. Russia has long had a naval base on the Crimean peninsula as it's Black Sea port, and the US encouraged Ukrainian fascists to rebel.
The Crimea was always Russian until 1954. Khrushchev assigned Crimea to Ukraine as compensation for the movement of all Ukrainian heavy industry during the Great Patriotic War. That's why there are no Ukrainian troops in the 1853 Crimean War. When Ukraine suggested it was going to join NATO the Russians took it back. There never were any Ukrainians in the Crimea.
Tom Palven wrote: The US demanded regime change in Syria to deny Russia of it's Mediterranean port.
Who gives a rats arse what the USA demanded. The USA simply funded rebels to create chaos and Russia came and killed off the rebels. Now the Kurds are aligned with Russia

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by OutOfBreath » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:25 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:46 am
Not with the examples you gave.

1. Russia has long had a naval base on the Crimean peninsula as it's Black Sea port, and the US encouraged Ukrainian fascists to rebel. See the last paragraph here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea
By the same token, would the us be entitled to chunks of the phillipines? (Used to rule, have naval bases, possibly sympathetic locals)

Fascists? Boy, you are far down the rabbit hole aren't you? Ukraine is divided between affinities towards europe and russia. Kiev is securely in the pro EU part, where pro EU activists staged protests. The fascist element was very marginal but trumped up by russian propaganda. Which makes it pretty clear which governments you listen to.
2. The US demanded regime change in Syria to deny Russia of it's Mediterranean port. Assad is a dictator, but not as brutal a dictator as al-Sisi of Egypt or the brutal Saudi royal theocracy that the US supports.
The us were never much involved in syria apart from half hearted support for the secular opposition forces. Us clearly didnt want to get much involved in another middle east war. (Didnt even grab their casus belli with the gas attacks) They did intervene to destroy IS, but thats really about it. I see you again avoid to acknowledge russian military actions, but instead start to tu quoque about other countries. You have a russian-shaped hole in your condemnations of use of force.
3. It's called the South China Sea, not Chesapeake Bay or the Gulf of Mexico.
By that token the Indian ocean belongs to India, no? China demands all of that sea, in complete disregard to all rules governing division of waters elsewhere in the world, and is in conflict with vietnam, malaysia, the phillipines, Taiwan about this.
Apparently, you still haven't read Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace by Gore Vidal, Swords into Plowshares by Ron Paul, or any of William Blum's books, yet.
I dont see why i have to read specific activist books to understand international politics. I read a lot of stuff about it and have my degree in social sciences. If tgose books is where you get your views, I doubt they are anything but onesided condemnations of the us from a time when the us was much more dominant.

Can i get an acknowledgment from you that russia is also using military might and nefarious plottings to get their own way? Your blindspot there discredits yoyr entire posture as a pacifist...

Peace
Dan
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"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by OutOfBreath » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:30 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:10 pm
I won't try to explain anything further, except to say that imho US foreign policy is a far cry from what one would expect of Ronald Reagan's "shining beacon on a hill," and a far from what Americans have been taught since childhood and seem to continue to believe it.
I can agree with that, and still disagree with a lot of what you say. Stop trusting RT man. Its no better than cnn or even fox news for truth.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:34 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:30 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:10 pm
I won't try to explain anything further, except to say that imho US foreign policy is a far cry from what one would expect of Ronald Reagan's "shining beacon on a hill," and a far from what Americans have been taught since childhood and seem to continue to believe it.
I can agree with that, and still disagree with a lot of what you say. Stop trusting RT man. Its no better than cnn or even fox news for truth.

Peace
Dan

Imvho, RT is less biased than the press releases from the Pentagon, State Dept., and Treasury Dept. that the Associated Press passes off as news, but I still cross reference anything from RT with what Reuters, Al Jazeera, and independent sources like Glenn Greenwald and Eric Margolis have to say.

I can't remember the last time I watched any news on TV.


(Are you saying that you don't trust Stacy Herbert!)
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:05 am

Tom Palven wrote: Imvho, RT is less biased than the press releases from the Pentagon, State Dept., and Treasury Dept.
The head of the the Foreign Intelligence Service, (SVR) Sergey Naryshkin, is also director of Russia 1 television and on the board of Russia Today,

The Russians are simply better at modern technology and communication propaganda, whilst the CIA is still broadcasting "Radio Free Europe" and "Radio Europe" on radio into Eastern Europe. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:11 am

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:21 am

Just to note: Comcast took RT channel off their service about one week ago. Thats just another push from Comcast for me to drop the most expensive cable provider in the USA. Satellite competitors have better equipment and software and almost the same lineups, tiering, and only slightly lower pricing. Just have to change providers every two years to get their introductory come on.

BUT...I assume the other providers will be dropping RT as well? Pluto TV...a free streaming service is available over the internet and carries RT. Almost forcing me to finally cut the cord. No more surfing to see what is on, have to actually choose?
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:55 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:11 am
Something the AP may not carry:
The story appeared in Stars and Stripes, as well as all major western newspapers. You should have also noticed the photo credit. Russia Today doesn't get to take photos of US submarine commanders in port.

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by OutOfBreath » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:55 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:34 pm
Imvho, RT is less biased than the press releases from the Pentagon, State Dept., and Treasury Dept. that the Associated Press passes off as news, but I still cross reference anything from RT with what Reuters, Al Jazeera, and independent sources like Glenn Greenwald and Eric Margolis have to say.

I can't remember the last time I watched any news on TV.


(Are you saying that you don't trust Stacy Herbert!)
Me, i watch no news basically. I only read alot. Could never abide breaking news cable stuff.

I'm saying you always dodge like hell instead of acknowledging any valid criticism of russia. Like now you ignored my lengthy post above and instead answered why you like rt.

I will try again:
me wrote: Can i get an acknowledgment from you that russia is also using military might and nefarious plottings to get their own way? Your blindspot there discredits yoyr entire posture as a pacifist...
Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:44 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:55 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:34 pm
Imvho, RT is less biased than the press releases from the Pentagon, State Dept., and Treasury Dept. that the Associated Press passes off as news, but I still cross reference anything from RT with what Reuters, Al Jazeera, and independent sources like Glenn Greenwald and Eric Margolis have to say.

I can't remember the last time I watched any news on TV.


(Are you saying that you don't trust Stacy Herbert!)
Me, i watch no news basically. I only read alot. Could never abide breaking news cable stuff.

I'm saying you always dodge like hell instead of acknowledging any valid criticism of russia. Like now you ignored my lengthy post above and instead answered why you like rt.

I will try again:
me wrote: Can i get an acknowledgment from you that russia is also using military might and nefarious plottings to get their own way? Your blindspot there discredits yoyr entire posture as a pacifist...
Peace
Dan

Yes, I'll acknowledge that Russia does that, and so does every country try to look out for its own interests, including Norway, Australia, Israel, etc., but they are all minor players compared to the military power and the aggression of the US.

I think that the Soviet Union was aggressive in Africa, South America, and elsewhere, but that Russia's actions right now are mainly defensive, trying to survive the US attempted strangulation of it oil and gas interests.
https://www.france24.com/en/20181117-us ... ne-germany

I know you disagree with that, but I would at least urge you to read the amazing list of US military operations since WW II in Gore Vidal's little book, Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace, and see if you still think that I am putting too negative a spin on US foreign policy, which is helping to bankrupt this country.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:56 pm

Tom Palven wrote:., but they are all minor players compared to the military power and the aggression of the US.
The USA has just lost all its allies in Europe, middle East and around the world. Meanwhile Russia has regained Syrian autonomy and reincorporated Crimea and eastern Ukraine. It seems pretty clear that Russia is simply winning using a minimal effort.

Frankly, I don't think anyone cares about the USA anymore apart from Americans.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:28 am

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:41 pm

Sorry that it takes me ages to respond. Work and family obligations run off with me, and if I forget to respond right away, I can forget it for a long time, here and elsewhere. Anywho:
Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:44 am
Yes, I'll acknowledge that Russia does that, and so does every country try to look out for its own interests, including Norway, Australia, Israel, etc., but they are all minor players compared to the military power and the aggression of the US.
Thank you. However, you should not underestimate every other country than the US in all settings just because the US have more fancy bombs. Politics is politics wherein the US is merely 300 million of 7 billion (4% of the world). There are relatively few places where weapons dominance really matter in international politics anyway. Also, as China is showing in their buildup, assymetrical technologies can make up for the massively funded military elephants of the US. (one well placed torpedo can sink an aircraft carrier) And it is also apparent that america is lagging in cyber warfare apart from surveillance.

So no, it is not sufficient to talk of the US when adressing problems of the world.
I think that the Soviet Union was aggressive in Africa, South America, and elsewhere, but that Russia's actions right now are mainly defensive, trying to survive the US attempted strangulation of it oil and gas interests.
https://www.france24.com/en/20181117-us ... ne-germany
I will say that Russia is trying to get back to being regarded a superpower despite it's low economic clout, and thus actively seeks to make a mark where it can. So it agressively pursues conflicts it can make a difference in (Syria, Ukraine, Caucasus), and deliberately threatens all neighbours with russian minorities that they will intervene to "protect" them if necessary. Added with showing off new weaponry, increasingly autocratic politics, statements that bemoan the fall of the soviet union AND using troll factories and direct financial support to right-wing authoritarian movements everywhere in the west to destabilize wherever it can... This is not at all "defensive" in any way.
I know you disagree with that, but I would at least urge you to read the amazing list of US military operations since WW II in Gore Vidal's little book, Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace, and see if you still think that I am putting too negative a spin on US foreign policy, which is helping to bankrupt this country.
The US has done and are doing a lot of {!#%@} around the world. I dont disagree. But dont put america on any pedestal either. Some interventions have been pure shite, like Vietnam and Bush's Iraq war, some have been somewhat justified like interventions in Yugoslavia, the Korean war arguably, and other times, US inaction has led to horrible situations like in DR Congo/Rwanda and the current Syria mess. But neither of these were only about the US, there are always numerous players of various alignments both on the side of the US and against.

Thaty's my point, to rid you of your bogeyman complex regarding the US. I can happily discuss times and places where US involvement has been criminal and atrocious. BUT you also have to get off your angelization of the authoritarian sham-democracy russian regime. Their intentions are no better, their example for erosion of democracy everywhere a terrible precedent, and their capabilities to interfere some places are much greater then the US, actually.

So if we can get to that point, I think we can have a real discussion. No more Russia=good, defending itself, the sorry victim BS, or the US=evil incarnate, and we can get real about real politics.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:01 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:41 pm
Sorry that it takes me ages to respond. Work and family obligations run off with me, and if I forget to respond right away, I can forget it for a long time, here and elsewhere. Anywho:
Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:44 am
Yes, I'll acknowledge that Russia does that, and so does every country try to look out for its own interests, including Norway, Australia, Israel, etc., but they are all minor players compared to the military power and the aggression of the US.
Thank you. However, you should not underestimate every other country than the US in all settings just because the US have more fancy bombs. Politics is politics wherein the US is merely 300 million of 7 billion (4% of the world). There are relatively few places where weapons dominance really matter in international politics anyway. Also, as China is showing in their buildup, assymetrical technologies can make up for the massively funded military elephants of the US. (one well placed torpedo can sink an aircraft carrier) And it is also apparent that america is lagging in cyber warfare apart from surveillance.

So no, it is not sufficient to talk of the US when adressing problems of the world.
I think that the Soviet Union was aggressive in Africa, South America, and elsewhere, but that Russia's actions right now are mainly defensive, trying to survive the US attempted strangulation of it oil and gas interests.
https://www.france24.com/en/20181117-us ... ne-germany
I will say that Russia is trying to get back to being regarded a superpower despite it's low economic clout, and thus actively seeks to make a mark where it can. So it agressively pursues conflicts it can make a difference in (Syria, Ukraine, Caucasus), and deliberately threatens all neighbours with russian minorities that they will intervene to "protect" them if necessary. Added with showing off new weaponry, increasingly autocratic politics, statements that bemoan the fall of the soviet union AND using troll factories and direct financial support to right-wing authoritarian movements everywhere in the west to destabilize wherever it can... This is not at all "defensive" in any way.
I know you disagree with that, but I would at least urge you to read the amazing list of US military operations since WW II in Gore Vidal's little book, Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace, and see if you still think that I am putting too negative a spin on US foreign policy, which is helping to bankrupt this country.
The US has done and are doing a lot of {!#%@} around the world. I dont disagree. But dont put america on any pedestal either. Some interventions have been pure shite, like Vietnam and Bush's Iraq war, some have been somewhat justified like interventions in Yugoslavia, the Korean war arguably, and other times, US inaction has led to horrible situations like in DR Congo/Rwanda and the current Syria mess. But neither of these were only about the US, there are always numerous players of various alignments both on the side of the US and against.

Thaty's my point, to rid you of your bogeyman complex regarding the US. I can happily discuss times and places where US involvement has been criminal and atrocious. BUT you also have to get off your angelization of the authoritarian sham-democracy russian regime. Their intentions are no better, their example for erosion of democracy everywhere a terrible precedent, and their capabilities to interfere some places are much greater then the US, actually.

So if we can get to that point, I think we can have a real discussion. No more Russia=good, defending itself, the sorry victim BS, or the US=evil incarnate, and we can get real about real politics.

Peace
Dan
You have provided a thoughtful argument in a courteous manner, and while I don't agree with all of it at this time, I will take it all into consideration.

I do, however, dispute my "angelization" of Russia, and am reminded of a scene in the Buffy, the Vampire Slayer TV series where Spike tells Buffy "Don't get shirty with me," and Buffy says " I'm not being shirty. And what does "shirty" mean, anyway? That's not a word!" :)

Peace,
Tom
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:05 am

An old article, but still relevant:
https://original.antiwar.com/justin/201 ... bout-us-2/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:16 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:05 am
An old article, but still relevant:
https://original.antiwar.com/justin/201 ... bout-us-2/
you realize that this is either completely ignorant of the facts or pure propaganda?

NK hasn't agreed to any of the things stated in the article, since what the UN/US think they mean and what NK/China/Russia think they mean differs dramatically.
Denuclearization for NK means that the US renounces its Nuclear Umbrella for South Korea - for the US it means NK giving up on making nukes and destroying the ones its got.

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:12 am

ElectricMonk wrote: you realize that this is either completely ignorant of the facts or pure propaganda?
Tom Palven always links to the "Anti-War" blog, which is an anti Hillary Clinton and pro-Trump, blog, by a person who also writes for a Russian propaganda website.

You will find that Tom Palven hasn't actually read the link himself and cannot answer your questions
. :D

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:32 am

Trump supports the neocon position regarding a Venezuelan coup, but not the neocon position on North Korea, so far:
https://news.antiwar.com/2019/01/29/us- ... -progress/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:53 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:32 am
Trump supports the neocon position regarding a Venezuelan coup, but not the neocon position on North Korea, so far:
https://news.antiwar.com/2019/01/29/us- ... -progress/
... because the number of refugees from North Korea is zero.
Trump would nuke both places if that would solve the problem for him.

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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:43 am

Tom Palven wrote: Trump supports the neocon position regarding a Venezuelan coup, but not the neocon position on North Korea, so far:
No. Trump needs Venezuelan oil to keep flowing and thus cheap petrol in the USA ,to keep his political base happy. Trump needs Korea as a distraction as his base, eventually including yourself, abandons him. :lol: :lol:

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"Ellard" iz an (@#$&)

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:49 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:43 am
Tom Palven wrote: Trump supports the neocon position regarding a Venezuelan coup, but not the neocon position on North Korea, so far:
No. Trump needs Venezuelan oil to keep flowing and thus cheap petrol in the USA ,to keep his political base happy. Trump needs Korea as a distraction as his base, eventually including yourself, abandons him. :lol: :lol:
Whether there's some kind of selfish logic to it or not, Trump supports your neocon views with regard overthrowing the governments of Venezuela and Iran, but is apparently not yet in lockstep with the deep state desire to also overthrow the governments of Syria and North Korea and to keep permanent military bases in Iraq and Afghanistan.
https://news.antiwar.com/2019/01/30/tru ... e-hearing/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:38 am

Tom Palven wrote:Trump supports your neocon views with regard overthrowing the governments of Venezuela and Iran,
You're retarded right? :lol: :lol:

1) I posted that Iran should be left alone and support the European protection of companies that trade with Iran.
2) As I post support for public health and public education and belong to a socialist political party in Australia, I can't really be a USA neocon, can I?
3) In contrast, as you post against public education and against public health and post holocaust denial propaganda on our forum, it is you who is the neo-nazi,,,,,,,,but we already know that. :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote: but is apparently not yet in lockstep with the deep state ....
There is no such thing as the "Deep State conspiracy". That is right wing FOX News propaganda that you spam on our forum.
hannity deep state 6.jpg
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Post by Tom Palven » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:58 am

From Glenn Greenwald's The Intercept: Elliot Abrams, who has spent a lifetime fighting against democracy, and was once convicted of lying to Congress about it, has been chosen to lead the fight against the democratically-elected government in Venezuela:
https://theintercept.com/2019/01/30/ell ... uela-coup/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
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I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by TJrandom » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:58 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:46 am
...

3. It's called the South China Asia Sea, not Chesapeake Bay or the Gulf of Mexico.
FIFY

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:10 pm

What? No, it's called the South China Sea, not the South Asia Sea.
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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by TJrandom » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:19 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:10 pm
What? No, it's called the South China Sea, not the South Asia Sea.
So wiki gets to arbitrate international disputes these days? I'm sticking with South Asia Sea. ;)

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Re: A Peace Conspiracy

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:36 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:19 pm
Austin Harper wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:10 pm
What? No, it's called the South China Sea, not the South Asia Sea.
So wiki gets to arbitrate international disputes these days? I'm sticking with South Asia Sea. ;)
My computer must be messed up.

When I Google South Asia Sea, I don't get any hits. :shock:
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot