Conscious mental activity during a deep hypothermic cardiocirculatory arrest? a skeptical look

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Shen1986
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Conscious mental activity during a deep hypothermic cardiocirculatory arrest? a skeptical look

Post by Shen1986 » Fri May 03, 2019 5:37 am

Here is a new OBE a friend send me and asked me to have a look at. It is a study similar to AWARE but like AWARE it failed to produce any kind of hard evidence to convince that NDEs are paranormal. The only thing they had was one OBE so lets have a look at it.

The whole study can be read here: https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/ar ... 2/fulltext

1. Problem: The study was done by Mario Beauregard who is a known believer:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Non-mater ... antum_mind

2. Problem: The cases were recorded thanks to interviews but there is nothing mentioned when they were recorded. If it happened during the stay in the hospital or after it that is never discussed and leaves us with the problem that these persons learned information from a outside source because the longer they are not interviewed the longer they can get information from other people or the Internet to fill in the blanks:
A total of 33 patients returned completed questionnaires (70 were sent). Three patients (9%) reported conscious mental activity. The three patients were interviewed following the receipt of the completed questionnaires.
Source: https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/ar ... 2/fulltext

3. Problem: The study happened in 2005 to 2010 a time when many of the information about operations and even the equipment is widely known thanks to TV dramas or magazines:
We recently conducted a retrospective study in patients who underwent deep hypothermic cardiocirculatory arrest (DHCA) at Hôpital Sacré-Coeur (a research hospital affiliated with the Université de Montréal) between 2005 and 2010.
Source: https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/ar ... 2/fulltext

4. Problem: The case in question happened in 2008 and there is no information when the case was recorded but according to the text it was not recorded very fast because the paragraph she was then 31 when it happened that means that the person could have learned additional information:
The case of one patient is particularly worth reporting. This patient, J.S., was 31 weeks pregnant when, on October 26, 2008, she woke up feeling short of breath and weak (J.S. was then 31-year-old).
Source: https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/ar ... 2/fulltext

5. Problem: J.S. underwent two surgeries which can be found recorded on tape on the Internet for example and like the procedure goes she must have been informed what she went through and every normal person I believe would look this up on the Internet or other sources because the person would like to know what really happened to him:
J.S. first underwent an emergency caesarean section. After having successfully delivered a baby boy, she was then transferred to a surgery room to undergo the replacement of the ascending aorta.
Source: https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/ar ... 2/fulltext

Example that this kind of operations will equipment can be found around the internet. Here is General Anaesthesia C-Section shown with everything what happened there:

Cardiothoracic Surgery where the whole room is even shown it was uploaded in :


5. Problem: The OBE in question claims that J.S. the woman who claimed who had a OBE could not see and did not talk to the operation staff she and that her eyes were taped shut. The problem here however is that she could have seen them after the operation or during her time when she was regenerating in the hospital. Another thing is that in many countries you are filled in what happened to you after the operation and who was even present. You are not clueless what has happened before or after. So therefore I am extremely doubtful she never met the staff in the first place.
She did not see or talk to the members of the surgical team, and it was not possible for her to see the machines behind the head section of the operating table, as she was wheeled into the operating room.
Source: https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/ar ... 2/fulltext

6. Problem: J.S. described only vague things. That means she described only how the nurse looked like and the anesthesia and echography machines which again is not a feet when we consider that these machines are shown in TV medical dramas or you can just google then on the Internet. Also there is nothing special mentioned about the nurse. The text says she only described her but nothing concrete:
She also perceived anesthesia and echography machines located behind her head. We were able to verify that the descriptions she provided of the nurse and the machines were accurate (this was confirmed by the cardiothoracic surgeon who operated upon her).
Source: https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/ar ... 2/fulltext

7. Problem: Even the authors admit a little doubt and a problem in this case:
Here it cannot be determined with certainty whether the subjective experience reported by J.S. occurred precisely during the cardiocirculatory arrest (which lasted for 15 min).
Source: https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/ar ... 2/fulltext

8. Problem: Mario Beauregard shows his bias in the end:
Nonetheless, the tantalizing case of J.S. raises a number of perplexing questions.
Source: https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/ar ... 2/fulltext


Conclusion: These problems I have pointed out that this study does not support the motion that NDEs are proof of a consciousness beyond the brain. Also it is striking like with AWARE that after 5 years of study they had just one OBE with no hits or something special because if you look at it from a normal perspective the study offers no evidence or proof. All the information the woman described are vague and she could have known from other sources. After reading more and more about NDE studies it seems they all follow the same modus operandi with interviews, some even long after the time in the hospital or without even checking if the person has not had contact with the staff after it or during its stay. The descriptions in this case are extremely vague - a nurse with no special marks is mentioned but nothing concrete and also after watching some videos the nurses are covered up completely in blue uniforms so there is nothing special to mention besides the hair or that she had glasses. The same applies for the machines which are featured in documentaries and around the Internet. So for me this is not evidence at all.
"Death Dies Hard." - Deathstars.

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scrmbldggs
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Re: Conscious mental activity during a deep hypothermic cardiocirculatory arrest? a skeptical look

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri May 03, 2019 12:02 pm

Shen1986 wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 5:37 am
...It is a study similar to AWARE but like AWARE it failed to produce any kind of hard evidence to convince that NDEs are paranormal...
hard evidence :oldman:
.
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Shen1986
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Re: Conscious mental activity during a deep hypothermic cardiocirculatory arrest? a skeptical look

Post by Shen1986 » Sun May 05, 2019 2:26 am

Lol great one. I also found about wood frogs fascinating stuff. These creatures actually have cardiac arrests in a sense all the time:

https://www.livescience.com/32175-can-f ... rozen.html

Their organs stop their function and are frozen solid. After they thaw they live a normal life.
The same happens to Tardigrades.

So when these animals are capable of this then NDEs are just in the heads because if not these animals would go to heaven every year or so.
"Death Dies Hard." - Deathstars.