NDE patients do see afterlife. Really? A skeptical look

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Shen1986
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NDE patients do see afterlife. Really? A skeptical look

Post by Shen1986 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:54 am

Near-death patients do see afterlife. Really? A skeptical look

I found this and decided to have a skeptical look on it. So here goes. Here is a short example:

Near-death patients do see afterlife

by JENNY HOPE, Daily Mail

Doctors claim to have found the first scientific evidence that patients have experiences of an afterlife when they are clinically dead.


One in ten heart attack patients experienced emotions, visions and lucid thoughts when they had been unconscious with no pulse and no breathing activity, say the researchers.


The study is believed to be the first to ensure that the patients who reported a near-death experience (NDE) were clinically dead before being resuscitated.


The findings also contradict the notion that lack of oxygen is responsible for NDEs. Those who had the most compelling experiences had the best reserves of oxygen. Debate has raged for more than a century


over whether the sense of entering another world, feelings of peace and a light at the end of a tunnel are evidence of an afterlife, or simply hallucinations.


The latest study, by Southampton University researchers, suggests the mind may continue to exist after the brain has ceased to function and the body is clinically dead.


Taken from: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... rlife.html

1. Problem: The source is extremely bad. It is Daily Mail:

Near-death patients do see afterlife

by JENNY HOPE, Daily Mail


Taken from: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... rlife.html

The same daily mail which claims that many stupid and bizarre things can cause cancer:

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=24239

2. Problem: The patients are clinically dead, not complete dead:

Doctors claim to have found the first scientific evidence that patients have experiences of an afterlife when they are clinically dead.


Taken from: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... rlife.html

Clinically dead is not complete death because the brain cells are not dead yet and can survive for hours:

When the heartbeat stops, a person is suffering clinical death - by definition. But consciousness is not lost until 15–20 seconds later. Up to this point, a person doesn't feel anything about the critical situation.

Most tissues and organs of the body can survive clinical death for considerable periods. Blood circulation can be stopped in the entire body below the heart for at least 30 minutes, with injury to the spinal cord being a limiting factor.[4] Detached limbs may be successfully reattached after 6 hours of no blood circulation at warm temperatures. Bone, tendon, and skin can survive as long as 8 to 12 hours.[5]

The brain, however, appears to accumulate ischemic injury faster than any other organ. Without special treatment after circulation is restarted, full recovery of the brain after more than 3 minutes of clinical death at normal body temperature is rare.[6][7] Usually brain damage or later brain death results after longer intervals of clinical death even if the heart is restarted and blood circulation is successfully restored. Brain injury is therefore the limiting factor for recovery from clinical death.

Although loss of function is almost immediate, there is no specific duration of clinical death at which the non-functioning brain clearly dies. The most vulnerable cells in the brain, CA1 neurons of the hippocampus, are fatally injured by as little as 10 minutes without oxygen. However, the injured cells do not actually die until hours after resuscitation.[8] This delayed death can be prevented in vitro by a simple drug treatment even after 20 minutes without oxygen.[9] In other areas of the brain, viable human neurons have been recovered and grown in culture hours after clinical death.[10]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death

3. Problem: If this is proof of afterlife why did not everyone experienced these visions, emotions etc but only 1 from ten heart patients:

One in ten heart attack patients experienced emotions, visions and lucid thoughts when they had been unconscious with no pulse and no breathing activity, say the researchers.


Taken from: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... rlife.html

4. Problem: This again shows that the brain was not dead. The study is contradicting itself because it has oxygen levels therefore the brain was not dead and was not even clinically dead. This shows that the brain was functioning. This is more rather a nail to the NDE spiritual hypothesis:

The findings also contradict the notion that lack of oxygen is responsible for NDEs. Those who had the most compelling experiences had the best reserves of oxygen.


Taken from: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... rlife.html

5. Problem: Here they claim it only suggests but the article headline is deceiving because it claims that Near-death patients do see afterlife:

The latest study, by Southampton University researchers, suggests the mind may continue to exist after the brain has ceased to function and the body is clinically dead.


Taken from: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... rlife.html

6. Problem: Again why did not everyone had the NDE experience if this is proof of a afterlife?:

But seven out of the 63 survivors recalled emotions and visions during their unconsciousness, says a report in the journal Resuscitation. Four patients (six per cent) met the strict criteria used to diagnose NDEs.


Taken from: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... rlife.html

7. Problem: Ah Dr. Sam Parnia why I am not surprised?:

Dr Sam Parnia, a university clinical research fellow and co-author of the study, said accounts of NDEs have been found in many different cultures but there is often a problem in confirming the people involved were actually near death.


Taken from: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... rlife.html

8. Problem: Again a problem. Those who had a NDE had a lot of oxygen which means their brain cells were functioning and were not suffering from less oxygen. This destroys that NDEs are a proof of afterlife because the brain was working even Dr. Parnia said it:

But Dr Parnia said there was no difference in oxygen levels or drug treatment between the heart attack survivors who had not had NDEs and those who had.

'In fact, the four patients who met the criteria for a true NDE actually had higher oxygen levels,' he added.


Taken from: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... rlife.html

Conclusion: The article is bad written, no wonder the source is bad. Also another problem is that the whole article contradicts that NDEs are spiritual. It shows that they are normal it does not go well with the headline. Those people had higher oxygen levels that means that their brain had enough oxygen to function. This is more a nail to the coffin for spiritual NDE hypothesis. I think Dr. Parnia with this one destroyed the NDE spiritual hypothesis.
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Re: NDE patients do see afterlife. Really? A skeptical look

Post by clarsct » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:04 am

Not to mention NDEs have been observed in pilots training to be astronauts under high 'G' circumstances, as they pass out. (G-LOC)
Went looking for a link, but got lost in the woo.


According to Penn and Teller, it's about 18% of the subjects that had hallucinations at low brain oxygen levels.

Hmmm. Might've found a link that has decent info:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers06.html

If it can be replicated in healthy individuals, then I would hazard to guess that it is a hallucination of a brain experiences tremendous and unexpected insult.
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Re: NDE patients do see afterlife. Really? A skeptical look

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:34 pm

I think it's interesting that they see what they expect to see. Do we have any NDEs from Hindus, Buddhists, cargo cultists?
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Re: NDE patients do see afterlife. Really? A skeptical look

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:37 pm

Or one from a store clerk that came out of it and brought new, valid, and useful insights into, lets say, cancer research. :-P
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Re: NDE patients do see afterlife. Really? A skeptical look

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:50 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Or one from a store clerk that came out of it and brought new, valid, and useful insights into, lets say, cancer research. :-P

Jay or Silent Bob?
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Re: NDE patients do see afterlife. Really? A skeptical look

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 pm

Both. In the new NDEs reality show. :jester:
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Re: NDE patients do see afterlife. Really? A skeptical look

Post by Shen1986 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:12 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:I think it's interesting that they see what they expect to see. Do we have any NDEs from Hindus, Buddhists, cargo cultists?


Yes they change according to your culture:

Karlis Osis and his colleague Erlendur Haraldsson argued that the content of near death experiences does not vary by culture, except for the identity of the figures seen during the experiences. For example, a Christian may see Jesus, while a Hindu may see Yamaraja, the Hindu king of death.[29][30] However, Yoshi Hata and his team reported NDEs with substantially different contents than those described above.[31]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death ... _variances

Some even met Elvis but only those who knew him:

People having near-death experiences are often greeted by someone - usually someone they deeply love or the so-called "Being of Light." When Elvis Presley died, it seemed like the whole world mourned. He was truly loved by many people the world over. Since then, many people have reported having Elvis sightings where the spirit of Elvis appears as an apparition to people much in the same way that Jesus appeared to people after his death. Not only that, many near-death experiencers find themselves greeted, not by a "Being of Light," but by Elvis Presley himself. According to Dr. Melvin Morse in his book on near-death experiences entitled Transformed by the Light, a 45-year old Mid-western teacher saw Elvis Presley in an intense light during her near-death experience. The woman had met Elvis when she was a child. The following is her near-death account:


Taken from: http://www.near-death.com/famous.html

Africans who did not ever seen Elvis never met him in a NDE. There was even a debate with Dr. Sam Parnia and others where a skeptic showed this errors and Dr. Fenwick agreed that Indians for example have NDEs where they are on a canoe going down a river but western NDEs are quite different with examples of Elvis or other people.
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