Earliest recorded UFO sightings

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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by TJrandom » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:17 pm

Until yesterday I had evidence of snakes that walk upright. I took pictures, printed them off for distribution, and even wrote a report about them - suggesting that they had mastered the art of vertical levitation. Unfortunately, somebody stole my camera and the packet of printed materials was accidentally burned up in the wood stove.

Surely you now believe there is a possibility that snakes walk upright?

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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by landrew » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:56 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:17 pm
Until yesterday I had evidence of snakes that walk upright. I took pictures, printed them off for distribution, and even wrote a report about them - suggesting that they had mastered the art of vertical levitation. Unfortunately, somebody stole my camera and the packet of printed materials was accidentally burned up in the wood stove.

Surely you now believe there is a possibility that snakes walk upright?
You're trying to refute with ridicule.
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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:07 pm

no landrew. all TJ has done is apply your EXACT "reasoning" to a different subject. Your job: spot why the ridicule is inaccurate. The ONLY difference is that you, based on personal experience/knowledge, reject the idea of walking snakes. For some reason, you are open to exactly the same evidence to make considering UFO's an open subject.

Recognizing the application of your position to different subjects is RIDICULE is an excellent realization. Build from there........................
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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by Gord » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:53 pm

landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:51 pm
Gord wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:59 am
landrew wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:08 pm
Gord wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:46 pm
landrew wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:58 pm
Gord wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:01 pm
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:57 am
landrew wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:59 pm
Take it into consideration or dismiss it wholesale, but someone has tried to look into ancient sightings of strange things in sky:
https://www.ancient-origins.net/unexpla ... ory-021327
"The above quote comes from the so-called Tulli Papyrus (now lost), after Alberto Tulli, the director of the Vatican Museum who found the document while in Cairo searching for antiquities. A great deal of controversy surrounds it, not the least because all that remains are copies,
Hmmmm...... this Egyptian account must be with the UFO that landed at Roswell that has also been lost. :D
Yeah, I mean, good grief. Seriously? The Tulli Papyrus?

http://www.catchpenny.org/tulli.html

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
In which universe does the fact that a document went missing, proves it was fake? Sometimes the "logic" being presented here makes me shake my head.
In what universe does a document that nobody has seen proves it was not only real, but was recreated accurately by third parties? Sometimes the things people cling to in order to maintain their weird beliefs makes me shake my head.
How about this? "We don't know."
Ever heard of that?
That's right, we don't know! And yet there are people out there who point to this thing we don't have and say, "look at our evidence"!

The Tulli papyrus, pfft. Same level of evidence as the yeti skull cap from the monastery in Pangboche. It also cannot be found. Therefore, it's whatever anyone needs it to be in order to tell the story they want to tell!
The day you stop conflating a position of examining evidence with being a "believer," I'll buy you a beer.
For Gord's sake, learn to read. :P

I'm saying "there is no evidence". And I'm complaining about people who believe anyway, and who rely on stories of evidence that they claim used to exist but cannot be examined anymore. You're the one who has been responding to that, but with your own take on it that apparently has nothing to do with what I've been talking about.

So, yeah -- the day you stop conflating my position with whatever preconceived notions you're stuck on, I'll stop trying to correct you.
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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:05 am

Gord wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:53 pm
landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:51 pm
Gord wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:59 am
landrew wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:08 pm
Gord wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:46 pm
landrew wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:58 pm
Gord wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:01 pm
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:57 am
landrew wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:59 pm
Take it into consideration or dismiss it wholesale, but someone has tried to look into ancient sightings of strange things in sky:
https://www.ancient-origins.net/unexpla ... ory-021327
"The above quote comes from the so-called Tulli Papyrus (now lost), after Alberto Tulli, the director of the Vatican Museum who found the document while in Cairo searching for antiquities. A great deal of controversy surrounds it, not the least because all that remains are copies,
Hmmmm...... this Egyptian account must be with the UFO that landed at Roswell that has also been lost. :D
Yeah, I mean, good grief. Seriously? The Tulli Papyrus?

http://www.catchpenny.org/tulli.html

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

In which universe does the fact that a document went missing, proves it was fake? Sometimes the "logic" being presented here makes me shake my head.
In what universe does a document that nobody has seen proves it was not only real, but was recreated accurately by third parties? Sometimes the things people cling to in order to maintain their weird beliefs makes me shake my head.
How about this? "We don't know."
Ever heard of that?
That's right, we don't know! And yet there are people out there who point to this thing we don't have and say, "look at our evidence"!

The Tulli papyrus, pfft. Same level of evidence as the yeti skull cap from the monastery in Pangboche. It also cannot be found. Therefore, it's whatever anyone needs it to be in order to tell the story they want to tell!
The day you stop conflating a position of examining evidence with being a "believer," I'll buy you a beer.
For Gord's sake, learn to read. :P

I'm saying "there is no evidence". And I'm complaining about people who believe anyway, and who rely on stories of evidence that they claim used to exist but cannot be examined anymore. You're the one who has been responding to that, but with your own take on it that apparently has nothing to do with what I've been talking about.

So, yeah -- the day you stop conflating my position with whatever preconceived notions you're stuck on, I'll stop trying to correct you.
No Gord, you take that shortcut quite often, declaring that "there's nothing to look at because it's nothing." It makes for shoddy opinions in my opinion, I'd rather be able to say I've examined the evidence. Almost invariably, I am called a "believer" for doing that.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:13 am

landrew wrote:That's the purpose of examining it. You seem to be suggesting that it should be dismissed without knowing anything about it.
....but I did examine it. The Tulli papyrus does not exist. Tulli didn't copy the papyrus but noted what he thought it said in "Egyptian shorthand" . That means the reproductions in hieroglyphs are bogus.
Tulli papyrus.jpg
Note how there are no cartouches?

I'm trying to find the death date of Alberto Tulli. If he died before the Rosetta Stone was translated, then we can 100% confirm the story is bogus.
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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:16 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:13 am
landrew wrote:That's the purpose of examining it. You seem to be suggesting that it should be dismissed without knowing anything about it.
....but I did examine it. The Tulli papyrus does not exist. Tulli didn't copy the papyrus but noted what he thought it said in "Egyptian shorthand" . That means the reproductions in hieroglyphs are bogus.

Tulli papyrus.jpg
Note how there are no cartouches?

I'm trying to find the death date of Alberto Tulli. If he died before the Rosetta Stone was translated, then we can 100% confirm the story is bogus.
You're free to conclude that the original never existed. That doesn't convince me however, and neither does a purported copy prove that an original ever existed.
We simply can't know.
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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:23 am

landrew wrote: You're free to conclude that the original never existed. That doesn't convince me however, and neither does a purported copy prove that an original ever existed.

We simply can't know.
No. Try harder. If the original hieroglyphs were not photographed but the narrative taken down in "Egyptian short hand" then we know the reproductions using hieroglyphs are totally bogus. They are not evidence of anything.

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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:28 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:23 am
landrew wrote: You're free to conclude that the original never existed. That doesn't convince me however, and neither does a purported copy prove that an original ever existed.

We simply can't know.
No. Try harder. If the original hieroglyphs were not photographed but the narrative taken down in "Egyptian short hand" then we know the reproductions using hieroglyphs are totally bogus. They are not evidence of anything.
Face it, I won't measure up to your ideal of True Skeptic®,
and visa-versa.
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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:52 am

landrew wrote: Face it, I won't measure up to your ideal of True Skeptic®, and visa-versa.
Is that because I actually bother to do research? :lol: :lol:

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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:55 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:52 am
landrew wrote: Face it, I won't measure up to your ideal of True Skeptic®, and visa-versa.
Is that because I actually bother to do research? :lol: :lol:
No, it's because I don't have the fear of admitting when we don't have an answer.
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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:59 am

landrew wrote: No, it's because I don't have the fear of admitting when we don't have an answer.
But we do have an answer. All the current reproductions of the Tulli papyrus are bogus.

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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:03 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:59 am
landrew wrote: No, it's because I don't have the fear of admitting when we don't have an answer.
But we do have an answer. All the current reproductions of the Tulli papyrus are bogus.
And therein lies the divide; certainty without evidence, vs. uncertainty without evidence.

Absence of evidence does not provide evidence of absence.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:06 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:03 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:59 am
landrew wrote: No, it's because I don't have the fear of admitting when we don't have an answer.
But we do have an answer. All the current reproductions of the Tulli papyrus are bogus.
And therein lies the divide; certainty without evidence, vs. uncertainty without evidence.

Absence of evidence does not provide evidence of absence.
Soooooo.....what does evidence of bogus reproductions of a papyrus that doesn't exist, give evidence for?

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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:14 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:06 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:03 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:59 am
landrew wrote: No, it's because I don't have the fear of admitting when we don't have an answer.
But we do have an answer. All the current reproductions of the Tulli papyrus are bogus.
And therein lies the divide; certainty without evidence, vs. uncertainty without evidence.

Absence of evidence does not provide evidence of absence.
Soooooo.....what does evidence of bogus reproductions of a papyrus that doesn't exist, give evidence for?
It's simple. You choose to rule out something that I find insufficient evidence to rule out.
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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:19 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Soooooo.....what does evidence of bogus reproductions of a papyrus that doesn't exist, give evidence for?
landrew wrote:It's simple. You choose to rule out something that I find insufficient evidence to rule out.
What evidence am I ruling out? That someone forged some hieroglyphics? :lol:

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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:22 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:19 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:Soooooo.....what does evidence of bogus reproductions of a papyrus that doesn't exist, give evidence for?
landrew wrote:It's simple. You choose to rule out something that I find insufficient evidence to rule out.
What evidence am I ruling out? That someone forged some hieroglyphics? :lol:
You're conveniently ruling out that an original document may have existed.
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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:25 am

landrew wrote:You're conveniently ruling out that an original document may have existed.
Which said what? We don't know what it said.

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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:29 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:25 am
landrew wrote:You're conveniently ruling out that an original document may have existed.
Which said what? We don't know what it said.
Research it. But then again you are sure it's bogus.
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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by Gord » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:04 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:05 am
Gord wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:53 pm
landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:51 pm
Gord wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:59 am
landrew wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:08 pm
Gord wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:46 pm
landrew wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:58 pm
Gord wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:01 pm
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:57 am
landrew wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:59 pm
Take it into consideration or dismiss it wholesale, but someone has tried to look into ancient sightings of strange things in sky:
https://www.ancient-origins.net/unexpla ... ory-021327
"The above quote comes from the so-called Tulli Papyrus (now lost), after Alberto Tulli, the director of the Vatican Museum who found the document while in Cairo searching for antiquities. A great deal of controversy surrounds it, not the least because all that remains are copies,
Hmmmm...... this Egyptian account must be with the UFO that landed at Roswell that has also been lost. :D
Yeah, I mean, good grief. Seriously? The Tulli Papyrus?

http://www.catchpenny.org/tulli.html

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

In which universe does the fact that a document went missing, proves it was fake? Sometimes the "logic" being presented here makes me shake my head.
In what universe does a document that nobody has seen proves it was not only real, but was recreated accurately by third parties? Sometimes the things people cling to in order to maintain their weird beliefs makes me shake my head.
How about this? "We don't know."
Ever heard of that?
That's right, we don't know! And yet there are people out there who point to this thing we don't have and say, "look at our evidence"!

The Tulli papyrus, pfft. Same level of evidence as the yeti skull cap from the monastery in Pangboche. It also cannot be found. Therefore, it's whatever anyone needs it to be in order to tell the story they want to tell!
The day you stop conflating a position of examining evidence with being a "believer," I'll buy you a beer.
For Gord's sake, learn to read. :P

I'm saying "there is no evidence". And I'm complaining about people who believe anyway, and who rely on stories of evidence that they claim used to exist but cannot be examined anymore. You're the one who has been responding to that, but with your own take on it that apparently has nothing to do with what I've been talking about.

So, yeah -- the day you stop conflating my position with whatever preconceived notions you're stuck on, I'll stop trying to correct you.
No Gord, you take that shortcut quite often, declaring that "there's nothing to look at because it's nothing." It makes for shoddy opinions in my opinion, I'd rather be able to say I've examined the evidence. Almost invariably, I am called a "believer" for doing that.
No landrew, it is NOT a "shortcut" to point out when the evidence is not available for anyone to use to draw a conclusion. It's my very point that when such evidence is not available, it is bad to draw any conclusions from it. I do not bother to call you anything, since it has nothing to do with my point; rather, I argue against your error of trying, for whatever reason, to defend people who draw conclusions without evidence.
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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by Gord » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:09 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:03 am
Absence of evidence does not provide evidence of absence.
Yes, it does. Of course it does. The only possible evidence of absence is absence of evidence.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:13 am

Reminds me of an exchange I had with my CEO regarding a "study" that reported results he wanted to use. I pointed out that the study itself reports the results are not "statistically significant." He said: "But its still interesting." and I said: "Not if they aren't statistically significant."

Thats when landrew fired me.
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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by TJrandom » Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:21 am

landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:56 pm
TJrandom wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:17 pm
Until yesterday I had evidence of snakes that walk upright. I took pictures, printed them off for distribution, and even wrote a report about them - suggesting that they had mastered the art of vertical levitation. Unfortunately, somebody stole my camera and the packet of printed materials was accidentally burned up in the wood stove.

Surely you now believe there is a possibility that snakes walk upright?
You're trying to refute with ridicule.
I certainly think that it would be ridiculous for anyone to believe in the possibility of vertical levitating snakes based upon my now missing evidence. But do you now believe in the possibility of their existence? And just a nit… I have refuted nothing, nor have I ridiculed anything either. ;)

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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:13 pm

Yeah, that's my job!

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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:53 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:21 am
landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:56 pm
TJrandom wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:17 pm
Until yesterday I had evidence of snakes that walk upright. I took pictures, printed them off for distribution, and even wrote a report about them - suggesting that they had mastered the art of vertical levitation. Unfortunately, somebody stole my camera and the packet of printed materials was accidentally burned up in the wood stove.

Surely you now believe there is a possibility that snakes walk upright?
You're trying to refute with ridicule.
I certainly think that it would be ridiculous for anyone to believe in the possibility of vertical levitating snakes based upon my now missing evidence. But do you now believe in the possibility of their existence? And just a nit… I have refuted nothing, nor have I ridiculed anything either. ;)
Ridiculous rationale that proves nothing at all.
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Re: Earliest recorded UFO sightings

Post by Cadmusteeth » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:46 pm

Not to prove. It's to illustrate.