What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

A skeptical look at medical practices
JJM
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Post by JJM » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:42 pm

rational doc, my condolences to you, as well.

However, I have already told you, many times, that "doctors screw up too" does not support chiroquacktic. Got it this time?

It is all about the standard of care. If you go to a chiro, no matter what your complaint is you can expect to be "manipulated." If you go to a doctor, you must expect a diagnosis, or at least a competent attempt at one.

Unlike medical training, which puts a doctor in a hospital treating sick people for at least two years,* chiropractors have no experience with serious illness. The chiropractic standard of treatment accomodates their ignorance. As long as they meet their licensed standards of "health care," what would be incompetence or malpractice for an MD is business as usual for the quack. That makes it difficult to hold chiros accountable for mistakes. Until you are convinced you don't have a serious problem, see a doctor.

Joe

* Most medical practice requires at least two more years of supervised training before licensing to act independently. Chiros go from the classroom to makeshift "clinics" and directly into independent practice. Chiropractic students have sued their schools over the paucity of "patients" in the clinics and the need to cajole friends and family to show up as sham patients. "On paper" chiro students receive clinical experience, in practice they do not.

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Articulett
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Post by Articulett » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:56 am

rational doc wrote:i lost my mom to colon cancer also at the age of 53, she was under medical care at the time and was diagnosed by her doctor with 40 yrs experience (and who was my mom's doctor for over 15 yrs) as having the "flu" - she went back multiple times over the next 4 weeks, until i found her at her house passed out, once at the hospital she was found to have lost so much blood that she was near cardiac arrest, she was then diagnosed as having colon cancer that traveled into the liver and destroyed her liver, her medical doctor misdiagnosed her case and prevented her from having the opportunity to possibly remove her colon cancer before her liver was destroyed - i lost my mom at 53 because of a medical screw up - cancer is routinely missed because it is many times asymptomatic until it is severe -

i'm sorry for your loss but this happens alot in all fields of healthcare


In a world where cells are ever dividing...mutations happen...sometimes bad ones...

My husband was diagnosed with colitis--and when his intesting completely closed he was rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery--they thought they had got it all. But it only takes one moment for one little cancer cell to get onboard a blood vessel...and migrate to a more suitable home...

Anyhow, life itself is fatal (and sexually transmitted)--

It does make me ever more determined to enjoy my time and find out as much as I can while I'm here.

And if someone has had cancer...and your back hurts--go get a bone scan before you let the chiropractor have at you--learn from other peoples' mistakes and you won't have to make so many of your own, eh?

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Post by MajorityofOne » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:57 pm

I too am sorry for your loss. I'm a hospital administrator and I routinely see people die. It is horrible every time, fortunately most of them are very elderly. I also think doctors make the mistake of thinking a young person is probably just "sick" with the flu or something. They're human afterall and not gods. I agree with X in that if they use the tools they have, and don't make assumptions, usually they do a great job and save a lot of people's lives.
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Post by Articulett » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:44 pm

I don't think I blame anyone. But if my son were to experience similar symptoms (blood in the stool) I'd be adamant about getting a colonoscopy. And the whole experience was a catalyst for my entry into genetics which I find fascinating.

There were a lot of little misunderstandings and problems along the way...
My husband was distrustful of doctors (we were sort-of into that "new agey" California thing), but he did go as soon as he got insurance--(He worked for Warner Brothers)...and they did a sigmoidoscopy...and didn't see anything...now they would do a full cononoscopy...his tumor was at the top of the sigmoid (descending part) of the colon--I don't know why they missed it...The doctor said he had colitis and gave him some sort of anti-inflammatory, and my husband decided to work with naturopaths and chiropractors rather than use these steroid suppositiories...and it seemed to work. But the M.D. doctor said he wouldn't see him anymore if my husband was going to mess around with alternative therapies so he "fired" my husband as his patient. So about a year later, we were out of town for a wedding and Mark's (my husband) colon shut down--nothing could get through--and at first we went to a chiropracter friend of ours who sent him to an osteopath for pain medicine...and then there were emergency room visits where they gave him laxatives, but things just got horrific, and they finally diagnosed cancer (he was a thin young guy and the x-ray technician asked him if he had AIDS...?!). So they did emergency surgery. I called our friend the chiropracter, but he just seemed to want to disassociate himself from the whole thing (it was beyond his scope, but I thought he might still want to visit my husband in the hospital or something.) A lot of doctors remove their friendship when they have nothing useful in the world of medicine to offer.

The emergency room doctors said they thought they removed all of the tumor (now they would do protective chemotherapy just in case a few cells had broken loose...but they didn't then)...and it came back in the lungs...and there was more surgery, chemo, radiation, a "hickman catheter", infusion pump, attempts at positive thinking, doctors, psychologists and even a stay in a psychiatric hospital (We had just had our first and only child 4 months prior to the diagnosis), but in the end, there was no miracle. (Despite lots of prayers, masses and even water from the Lourdes--which I later jokingly sprinkled on my beastly toddler to no affect.) Cancer needs to be caught, excised, and treated early. It was wierd, because we found out he was dying while waiting for the doctor one...I opened up his chart and almost fell over when it said, "Mark understands that he is terminal". I guess it was obvious to everyone, but not to us.

In the end he wanted to die, but there was no "legal" way to help...and there was conflict between his mother and I...and the doctor who misdiagnosed him originally turned out to be the hospice doctor--and Catholic...so he was opposed to euthanasia of any sort. He came to visit my husband (never realizing that he'd been his original doctor) on his deathbed--and he asked him "Is there anything I can do for you?" and my husband said "Yeah, rediagnose me"--which the doctor thought was humorous and an excuse for keeping him alive ...but I knew that it was irony and in its most gut wrenching form.

Sometimes I blamed myself...like I should have been more adamant...or I wondered if it could be stress related and I was the "stress"--but I can't cause cancer anymore than I can cure it. And, at least with cancer, there is a chance to say "goodbye". (My mother died in a car accident when I was young--I was in the car as well and in the hospital comatose during her funeral--so it was surreal to awaken to a new life without my mother--there was no goodbye of any kind, so my brain kept thinking she was alive--I'd dream she was alive...). I don't know which is better--with cancer you can say goodbye, but you watch your loved one suffer--being tortured really...but not getting to say any kind of goodbye is emotionally haunting-- A lot of feelings come up still...like Dana Reeves recent death--someone young and not in a risk category...the son left behind...all of it.

I don't blame anyone. In the randomness of life, sometimes you win and sometimes you get the short end of the stick. In many ways I've been very fortunate. Blame never does any good anyhow. And even painful experiences can be catalysts for understanding and growth.

My husband died in July of 1992. We had just gotten our first computer, and a friend of ours was actually hooked up to the internet (via phone), but it was too expensive for us. But I often think about what a kick he would have gotten out of this whole internet thing--the way people all over the world can communicate with eachother. And he really loved Carl Sagan and Richard Feynman (both of whom died of cancer) and I'd read them after he died thinking how cool he would have thought they were...he (my husband) made my physics class fun with his examples (I met him in college). So I think I appreciate and enjoy science more because of him...and because I feel lucky to be here to get to know this stuff as it unfolds.

It's hard for me to think of terms like blame or "good" and "bad" because it is so inter-related. I don't know who I would have been had he lived (or what that means...would he have beaten the cancer or never have gotten it?) I am very glad to have known him, and would agree to it even if I knew in advance we'd only have 9 years.

It's hard to think in "what ifs". For example, if the sperm just to the left of the one that made Hitler, fertilized the egg instead...it would be a whole different world wouldn't it? Different people would rise to power and do different things and different people would live and be born and die and create different inventions and name their children different names and so forth and someone other than the Nazi's would be history's bad guys...I may not exist.

My son was three when his dad died, and he says that in a way, he's glad his dad died (partially because he doesn't know what he lost I'm sure), because he likes his life and he likes his house and he likes his dogs and he likes his friends and he likes being an only child and he wouldn't want it to be different. Neither of us have any way of knowing what would or could have been. We can just guess. And I've always been more fond of reality than "imaginary" so I don't play around with "what ifs" very much.

I think chiropracters are probably helpful to many people--I don't think they can do all the stuff they purport (and some of the stuff they do is not really scientific)...But if people only have "small" problems then even a placebo effect can be helpful. Most nebulous ailments go away on their own. Fortunately, most people who go to chiropracters aren't suffering from cancer. Most young people don't get cancer. And most people can say all the bad things they want about medicine (or psychiatric drugs--e.g. tom cruise) until they actually NEED it. But when it comes to tangible results (fixing a broken arm; removing tumors; treating type I diabetes)--then naturopathic remedies aren't much help and can cause further harm.

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Post by Zenskeptic » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:24 pm

I'm sure a physical therapist could have done this too, but when my sciatic nerve got pinched in a car wreck, a local chiropractor named Bruce Mikota fixed it when my MD couldn't. I haven't been back since, but if the problem sprung up in the future I would. It's alot cheaper than PT. Plus Bruce is the best golfer in the area and he loves to give out swing tips, that's worth the 25 dollars on its own.

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Post by MajorityofOne » Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:10 pm

My ex-husband is an airline pilot who flies internationally. After sitting in the cockpit for hours on end, he would complain of all sorts of stiffness and back pain, etc. He began going to a chiropractor and he loves it.

I know there are things that chiropractors do well-or they wouldn't still be around. I just think people get too involved, or the chiro makes promises beyond his capability and the patient is misled. My bottom line opinion is that they can only do so much and they promise too much.
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Post by JJM » Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:14 pm

>Anecdote and testimonial amount to nothing. Consider:

"Back pain is by far the condition most frequently treated by chiropractors. The Cochrane review of spinal manipulation for back pain summarised 39 clinical trials.[1] The authors’ conclusions were very clear: ‘There is no evidence that spinal manipulative therapy is superior to other standard treatments for patients with acute or chronic low back pain.’"
http://journals.medicinescomplete.com/j ... a02t01.htm
[1] Assendelft WJJ, Morton SC, Yu EI et al. Spinal manipulative therapy for low back pain. Cochrane Database Syst Rev 2004; 1: CD00047.

>"I went to a chiro and I felt better" is the same as "I rested and I felt better" or "I went to a masseur/se and I felt better." A chiro is a masseur with delusions of grandeur. And that is a problem if you go to a chiro with a serious ailment. I also think it is a problem if a chiro invades your wallet for needless "treatments."

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Post by rational doc » Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:16 pm

this has got to be the lamest argument i have ever heard,

lets's see the artery can burst at any time from traumatic or non-traumatic forces - but the chiropractor did it and the profession is held to blame because of it

so by the same logic everytime someone has a heart attack in the hospital the medical doctors are at fault

and because someone dies in a nursing home - the care givers there are at fault

have fun with your witch hunt

the real facts are that there are millions of neck manipulations done a year by all sorts of professions with a very low rate of serious side effects - most of which can be avoided with a good case history and exam in my opinion

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Post by JJM » Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:05 pm

rational doc wrote:this has got to be the lamest argument i have ever heard,

lets's see the artery can burst at any time from traumatic or non-traumatic forces - but the chiropractor did it and the profession is held to blame because of it

...

have fun with your witch hunt

the real facts are that there are millions of neck manipulations done a year by all sorts of professions with a very low rate of serious side effects - most of which can be avoided with a good case history and exam in my opinion
Critical analysis of chiropractic
http://www.chirobase.org/
It is not enough to say this source (or quackwatch) is unreliable, you must show that specific claims are wrong.

Neck manipulation and stroke:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... troke.html

Neurologists warn against neck manipulation:
http://www.chirobase.org/15News/neurol.html

Neck manipulation killed a woman:
http://www.chirobase.org/15News/lewis.html

Complications of neck manipulation:
http://www.neck911usa.com/

PH Long, D.C. “Chiropractic manipulation is the number one reason for people suffering stroke under the age of 45”:
http://www.skepticreport.com/health/strokespinal.htm

"Medical Letter" May 27, 2002 p. 50:
“CONCLUSION — Spinal manipulation can cause life-threatening complications. Manipulation
of the cervical spine, which has been associated with dissection of the vertebral artery,
appears to be especially dangerous.”

"Manipulation" can mean a lot of things. The warnings above are for the chiro practice of vigorously snapping the neck. A gentle flexion of the neck, no greater than 50 degrees, can be beneficial (Samuel Homola, D.C. "Inside Chiropractic" (Prometheus, 1999)).

Witch Hunt? A major survey (cited previously) of chiros, by chiros, (WP McDonald et al "Seminars in Integrative Medicine" Vol. 2, No. 3, 2004, pp. 92-98) shows that most chiros hold irrational beliefs:
94% recommend regular spinal "adjustments" [of no proven value]
77% think "chiropractic, spinal subluxations" affect visceral disease [a laughable notion]

You don't have to hunt for delusional chiros. Ironically, chiros think this study is good for them because it shows uniformity in beliefs. Note that beliefs are all one can have in the absence of hard data. Meanwhile, people who have studied anatomy and physiology interpret the results of the study as demonstrating how poorly educated and irrational most chiropractors are.

Joe

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Articulett
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Post by Articulett » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:39 am

rational doc wrote:this has got to be the lamest argument i have ever heard,

lets's see the artery can burst at any time from traumatic or non-traumatic forces - but the chiropractor did it and the profession is held to blame because of it

so by the same logic everytime someone has a heart attack in the hospital the medical doctors are at fault

and because someone dies in a nursing home - the care givers there are at fault

have fun with your witch hunt

the real facts are that there are millions of neck manipulations done a year by all sorts of professions with a very low rate of serious side effects - most of which can be avoided with a good case history and exam in my opinion
I crack my own neck all the time. It seems to scare people, but so far, no bursted arteries.

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Post by JJM » Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:34 am

Articulett wrote: I crack my own neck all the time. It seems to scare people, but so far, no bursted arteries.
It is a question of how much force is involved. It is an uncommon event even with a chiro going for dramatic effect. However, and I have said this before and should have repeated this in my last post: A vigorous, chiropractic snap of the neck has no proven therapeutic value. Therefore, on the upside it does nothing and on the downside it causes serious harm (a stroke).

Now, our resident chiro is going to say that all medical procedures have risks. S/he will totally ignore the fact that snapping the neck is not a medical or therapeutic procedure. Read the references I provided, gentle flexing/manipulation of the neck can be beneficial. Our chiro also, always, says that sometimes strokes just happen. That is true; but, why take a chance when there is no benefit from the procedure? Also, note that the stroke can take several days to occur. The association between stroke and chiropractic was not well known till a few years ago when neurologists started asking patients if they had been treated by a chiropractor.

For people like Articulett and chiros who will say they have never caused a problem, I recommend watching the movie "Grizzly Man." It shows a guy who spent 17 summers living among grizzly bears and videotaping his close encounters. In one of his last videos, he says he is camped in a particularly dangerous place; but, the bears don't attack him. A couple hours later, he was killed and eaten by a bear.

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Post by Articulett » Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:45 am

JJM wrote:
Articulett wrote:
For people like Articulett and chiros who will say they have never caused a problem, I recommend watching the movie "Grizzly Man." It shows a guy who spent 17 summers living among grizzly bears and videotaping his close encounters. In one of his last videos, he says he is camped in a particularly dangerous place; but, the bears don't attack him. A couple hours later, he was killed and eaten by a bear.
I actually didn't disagree with what you wrote. I'm aware of chiropractic claims vs. chiropractic scientific studies. If you read my earlier posts you will see as much. I prefer cracking my own neck than going to a chiropractor because it's cheaper, and sometimes a nerve is compressed and my neck just feels like it needs to be cracked. I crack my back and knuckles too (which are small and free from arthritis conrary to the myth that knucklecracking causes large arthritic knuckles.) I guess they just don't seem as "quackish" as other quacks but I hardly endorse them.

I saw Grizzly Man (someone referred to it as the Spinal Tap of nature films)--actually I saw a documentary about Grizzly Man on the Discovery channel. The guy felt a kinship with the bears that they didn't feel for him. I'd say that from a genetics perspective, you can't expect a male grizzly bear to have "feelings" that get in the way of nourishment. Females might allow for his presence so long as doing so benefitted her cubs...and she might even extend a fondness for her cubs over to a similarish creature--but a male grizzly about to go into hibernation and in desparate need of food--isn't going to let fear, friendship, or clothing get in his way. But what pissed me off the most...is the fact that his girlfriend got killed. The grizzlys were his passion...he was making his documentary and fanning his ego...often pretending he was there alone, when he was not. She was afraid of the bears and decided that he had a death wish and that though she loved him, she had just decided not to go with him the next time he went to stay with the grizzlys. He had a temper tantrum at the airport over a ticket mishap, and he stormed out and set up his little hidden camp in the wilderness. She followed. And they both were killed. I've seen a photo of his carcass...the jeans are on the upper half of one leg, but everything except the bone is gnawed away below the knee--the guy is laying on his back and the knee is up as if he was going to do sit ups...it's pretty jarring.

People are very good at fooling themselves...often with dire consequences. I just don't know if I agree that chiropractors are more dangerous than good. They seem to offer, at least, a placebo effect--and though the bursted artery effect happens...bursted arteries happen in lots of people even without chiropractic manipulation. Although the adjustment could be a catalyst in a vulnerable individual--I don't think it is really the cause...I mean, I suspect that the person had some undiagnosed artery problems to begin with. That being said, if I stop posting here, it could be because I burst an artery while cracking my neck.

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Medical "phishing"

Post by skepticdoc » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:41 pm

Sorry to read about your details, Articulett.

My philosophy is to be a humble scientist, and doubt everything, sometimes oneself.

Please send me a PM if you are a skeptic physician and would like to discuss certain topics that may be specific and more of interest to a practicing physician than a general member of the Forum. Your pivacy is guaranteed!

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Post by JJM » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:56 pm

"Grizzly Man" = "Spinal Tap" I love it

"What a Rational Chiropractor Can Do for You"
Samuel Homola, D.C.
http://www.chirobase.org/07Strategy/goodchiro.html

If you cruise around chirobase.org there is a lot of quackery in chiropractic, and practitoners vary widely in their approach. Only a few reject all the quackery, they are often members of National Association for Chiropractic Medicine. So, yes, you can find a chiro who won't try to sign you up for useless, regular adjustments and who won't "treat" visceral disease.

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Any chance someone can explain this?

Post by BBRIAN2 » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:45 pm

I've been to several chiropractors over the years. Most of it started from my high school job lifting 50 pound bags of soil and salt for hours on end. I had some major back blowouts, and the chiropractors seemed to help some - Placebo effect to some degree, I'm sure, as I was quite young and naive. But the most beneficial parts were the traction (where they pull the vertebra of your spine apart gently, with a machine, and rotate your torso in small, slow circular rotations), as well as the massage after the big back popping session (tension-induced, forced synovial fluid expulsions). I can say that I've had back injuries since, and have received treatment with equivalent or better results than the chiropractors gave, simply by resting, massaging the muscle, using heat packs on the muscle, and the occasional conservative ingestion of prescribed muscle relaxers.

I'm well-aware of the pervasive quackiness found amongst most chiro circles, and that subluxation is a fictional process. I now steer completely clear of chiropractors (which is hard, because the nation's largest chiro school is 45 minutes away!), but I do self-adjust myself (pop my own back, neck, fingers, toes, knees, hips, foot arches, solar plexus, etc..) sparingly, and only when necessary (i.e., when my neck won't turn the full 90 degrees to the side, or I feel a minute blockage of my full range of motion in my 9th Thoracic vertabrae joint, and need to pop it).

Here's where things get weird...

On a couple of occasions in the past few years, I've cracked my back laterally by sitting upright and twisting my trunk sideways (with one hand pressing off of my lap, the other firmly pushing downward and inward across the length of my spine on my back as I twist), resulting in loud and much-needed synovial pops. On one occasion, my nose INSTANTLY dripped approximately 5 large drips of super thin mucous onto my chest upon my back popping. I found myself sniffling to prevent more dripping, and wiping my nose, confused. On another occasion my salivary glands in my mouth did a very similar thing, causing me to drool out my already-opened mouth. Both of these instances took me by surprise, and still cause me much wonder to this day. I'm sure there must be some physiological cause and effect that allowed these two events to occur by the same basic mechanism.

My question is, what the heck is the connection, and has anyone else had this (or something similar) happen to them upon popping a joint?

And yes, I'm a Skeptic subscriber -- I want a real answer, not hogwash! :roll:

Thanks... looking forward to an insightful, scientific response.

BBRIAN2

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A New Bed

Post by JasonKiddy » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:55 pm

(Hello all... my first post and all that)

My problems started a few years ago. I moved house and started having horrible lower back pain.
A couple of friends (new age-ers) sugegsted I turn my bed around to face the other direction (some sort of ley-line problem!) and another suggested going to see her chiropractor as well.
So I did... leading to him telling me I had all sorts of problems that would get much worse unless I signed-up for his bi-weekly sessions.
(I also had one leg longer that the other.. oh no!!!!!!)

To cut a long story short (whew) I bought a different mattress and haven't had any back problems in the last 4 years.

The thought that the mattress was causing problems didnt even creep into my mind. Even though I bought a new bed and mattress when moving house as the old one wouldn't fit through the door!

All I can say is watch out. Obviously there are scumbags in every field... but i'm sure I would still be forking out to that quack now if it weren't for my nice cuddly mattress. :-)

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Cracking time

Post by JasonKiddy » Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:08 pm

Oh yeah... while I'm here.

I get a lot of pleasure/release? from cracking various knuckles/neck/back etc.

My question is... is it safe to do so (carefully) or should I not do it?
Is there any scientific evidence it does damage - or is it just 'thought' to do damage.

(not interested in any chiropractors answering thanks) :-)

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Chiropractic

Post by Colin » Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:26 pm

I don't think it has been mentioned: In 2005 the Province of Ontario, Canada, delisted chiropractic treatment from its insured services under the government run health insurance plan.

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Re: Any chance someone can explain this?

Post by blueboy32 » Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:11 pm

BBRIAN2 wrote: On a couple of occasions in the past few years, I've cracked my back laterally by sitting upright and twisting my trunk sideways (with one hand pressing off of my lap, the other firmly pushing downward and inward across the length of my spine on my back as I twist), resulting in loud and much-needed synovial pops. On one occasion, my nose INSTANTLY dripped approximately 5 large drips of super thin mucous onto my chest upon my back popping. I found myself sniffling to prevent more dripping, and wiping my nose, confused. On another occasion my salivary glands in my mouth did a very similar thing, causing me to drool out my already-opened mouth. Both of these instances took me by surprise, and still cause me much wonder to this day. I'm sure there must be some physiological cause and effect that allowed these two events to occur by the same basic mechanism.

My question is, what the heck is the connection, and has anyone else had this (or something similar) happen to them upon popping a joint?

BBRIAN2
Obviously, since every one in this forum agrees that Chiropractic manipulation has no effect on they body, you are hallucinating.

I've seen a lot of reports of chiro horror stories on this post - many third hand or media reports and may some urban legend. Here are some stories that I personally know about. Anecdotal, I know, but they can be mixed with the others:

1. A boy (the son of my cousin) goes to Mayo (Rochester MN) and is told he needs back surgery with a 50% chance he will never walk again. He goes to a chiropractor and is treated - then sent back to Mayo (by the chiro). Mayo says the boy no longer needs surgery.

2. A banker (next door neighbor) goes to an MD for a year complaining of a cough and is given many prescriptions for cough medicine. He goes to chiro and is diagnosed as having cancer. He begins cancer treatment (with MD's) but soon dies (treatments delayed too long due to MD).

3. A dog hit by car can't walk for week. Taken to chiro and adjusted and instantly returns to normal.

If you think that MD's are the answer; do a little research and see how many patients are killed by prescribed medicines as opposed to those killed by chiropractors. I won't tell you the number since it is so incredibly high that you need to do the research by yourself.[/footnote]
"Question everything you learned as a child."

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Re: A New Bed

Post by JJM » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:46 pm

JasonKiddy wrote: (I also had one leg longer that the other.. oh no!!!!!!)
"Practitioners ... typically find a "short leg ..." Usually, such findings are nonexistent or not significant." [emphasis added]
Samuel Homola, D.C.
http://www.chirobase.org/17QA/shortleg.html

From your comment, I take it you already suspected as much.

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short-leg - long-leg

Post by JasonKiddy » Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:16 pm

Oops.
Sorry - I should have made it clearer I meant the 'oh no' as a joke.

My friend was told almost exactly the same as me, which kind of made it obvious to me.

thanks though anyway.

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Post by purveyor2 » Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:02 am

There are good and bad docs in all fields. I hear stories all the time of delayed diagnosis that make me think, why the hell didn't they look into "x"?! But comparing DCs with MDs is just apples and oranges. Unless the discussion is limited to musculoskeletal complaints...

Being surrounded by DCs since I was a teen and having shared office space with 2 different DCs over the years - I still actively refer to them on occasion. I have concluded the following.
1. They should not be allowed to call themselves "physicians". It is just misleading. Lacking the experience of extensive internships/residencies, they simply have very limited experience with serious disease. Their judgement (along with Naturopaths) reminds me of my med school days - using good logic and knowledge to consistantly come to the incorrect clinical conclusion. That's just medicine...
2. Manipulative therapy can be really useful for some patients (any kind - DC, DO, PT)
3. The honest, ethical DCs who stick to musculoskeletal medicine have a hard time making a decent living which pressures them into other things like selling supplements, or bleeding the work/comp and car insurance industries.
4. The financially lucrative DC practices are unethical on many levels - see #3.
5. The risks of manipulation seem to be vastly overstated.
6. Discrediting manual therapy because of lack of evidence is tricky business, because a huge part of conventional medicine lacks good evidence as well.

Even though I can defend the DCs on a certain level, I could write a sizeable book of case studies that DCs utterly {!#%@} up that wound up in my office. All because of #1.

If you find a good one that doesn't want to sign you up to a series of treatments or treat your non-musculoskeletal illness - and they help you out - hold on to them and tell a friend. There don't seem to be many of them and if they don't get busy, they'll be out of business. Leaving only the backquacks who tell my patients that they can control their diabetes with chromium.

Sorry about the rambling, but the Pinot is really good tonight :wink:

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Your back on crack

Post by Articulett » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:11 am

JasonKiddy wrote:Oh yeah... while I'm here.

I get a lot of pleasure/release? from cracking various knuckles/neck/back etc.

My question is... is it safe to do so (carefully) or should I not do it?
Is there any scientific evidence it does damage - or is it just 'thought' to do damage.

(not interested in any chiropractors answering thanks) :-)
I do that too...I feel like I "need" it and I know just where and how I need to crack. I employ BBrians2's method often. I tried to read up on this on the web (it's called "crepsis"), I saw one study where the forces were measured and it was theorized that it could lead to osteoarthritis...I have some arthritis in my knees I think--which I never crack...and none (so far) in my cracked joints--spine, neck, fingers. I hope I'm not doing damage...I've been doing it for over 20 years, and I'm not noticing anything--but when I exercise more I crack less.

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Post by Articulett » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:18 am

JJM wrote:"Grizzly Man" = "Spinal Tap" I love it

"What a Rational Chiropractor Can Do for You"
Samuel Homola, D.C.
http://www.chirobase.org/07Strategy/goodchiro.html

If you cruise around chirobase.org there is a lot of quackery in chiropractic, and practitoners vary widely in their approach. Only a few reject all the quackery, they are often members of National Association for Chiropractic Medicine. So, yes, you can find a chiro who won't try to sign you up for useless, regular adjustments and who won't "treat" visceral disease.
This is good--thanks. Yes, the last chiro I went to tried to sell me "insurance", vitamins, and tests--and he did some other stuff (thumping) that seemed a little woo--

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Re: Any chance someone can explain this?

Post by Articulett » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:32 am

blueboy32 wrote:
BBRIAN2 wrote:
If you think that MD's are the answer; do a little research and see how many patients are killed by prescribed medicines as opposed to those killed by chiropractors. I won't tell you the number since it is so incredibly high that you need to do the research by yourself.[/footnote]
This is really silly. People go to MDs for different reasons then they go to chiropractors. I'm sure Oncologists have very high death rates--especially if they specialize in certain cancers known to be more fatal than others. Podiatrists rarely kill anyone. I think it's symptomology that ought to guide you to a doctor vs. a chiropractor. Chiropractors treat soft tissue injures and "subluxations"--back problems. Unless the dog had a compressed spinal disc, I doubt the story. It implies that doggies on wheels could be cured in a snap--hip dysplasia certainly doesn't respond to chiropractic manipulation.

Chiropracters are out of their element when it comes to internal medicine and to pretending otherwise can cause a delay in proper care. Sometimes this, itself is fatal...

No one is claiming chiropracters are dangerous in general. Some over-represent their skills and knowledge base--actually, most do. I worked for a trial lawyer who had a little business with a chiropractor and doctor...and for some amazing reason, all of this lawyers personal injury clients (culled from a free public service class on knowing your rights) needed a chiropractor and doctor; moreover, treatment tended to depend on the amount of insurance available...

They aren't miracle workers.

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Post by rational doc » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:23 pm

you need the right type of doctor at the right time - incl. md, chiro, pt, etc

all doctors are guilty of not referring at the right time and for the right reasons and most doctors think that they are more effective than what they are in my personel experience

if a chiropractor doesn't refer on time - rarely is it fatal becuase most people come in for musculoskeletal complaints

if an md doesn't refer to chiro ( or pt) or the pt doesn't refer to chiro or vice versa - the patient can be out of work, disabled or in chronic pain unnecessarily

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doctors?

Post by JasonKiddy » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:31 pm

Not meaning to sound offensive or anything... but...
Chiropractors are NOT doctors. That's kind of the whole point.
While they 'may' be able to help you (that is obviously where you and I disagree), they most definitely cannot be classed as doctors.
regards
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
Seneca (4-85CE)

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Re: doctors?

Post by skepticdoc » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:42 pm

JasonKiddy wrote:Not meaning to sound offensive or anything... but...
Chiropractors are NOT doctors. That's kind of the whole point.
While they 'may' be able to help you (that is obviously where you and I disagree), they most definitely cannot be classed as doctors.
regards
They are Doctors of Chiropractic, like the "Doctor" of the National Institute of Truth Verification, that completed a 6 hour Bible course to earn his degree and is now a millionaire selling voice stress analyzers to law enforcement in the USA!

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symantics

Post by JasonKiddy » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:18 pm

hehehe - nice one :-)

If these chiropractors/flim-flam artists/creationists keep stealing words... or at least re-defining them for themselves... maybe we should make up new words for ourselves?!? Let them have the stinky old ones :-)

so... when a creationist uses the word theory completely out of it's scientific context what are we to use. any ideas?

what about chiropractic doctor - what word to use for a real doctor?


um... too late for me to think that clearly...
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
Seneca (4-85CE)

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Re: symantics

Post by Articulett » Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:35 am

JasonKiddy wrote:hehehe - nice one :-)

If these chiropractors/flim-flam artists/creationists keep stealing words... or at least re-defining them for themselves... maybe we should make up new words for ourselves?!? Let them have the stinky old ones :-)

so... when a creationist uses the word theory completely out of it's scientific context what are we to use. any ideas?

what about chiropractic doctor - what word to use for a real doctor?


um... too late for me to think that clearly...
Maybe "crockder" for the latter (chiropractor (crock-0-{!#%@})) doctor?

I was trying to think up a clever term for a group of trolls like the seaserpent guy and hungryfortruth--the troll equivalent of a herd, gaggle, etc.

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Post by rational doc » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:08 am

you wrote:

Not meaning to sound offensive or anything... but...
Chiropractors are NOT doctors. That's kind of the whole point.
While they 'may' be able to help you (that is obviously where you and I disagree), they most definitely cannot be classed as doctors.
regards



so then i can't call my dentist, or poiatrist a doctor either?

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Post by rational doc » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:10 am


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Post by rational doc » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:14 am


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Post by rational doc » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:15 am


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Post by rational doc » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:17 am

2001 QUESTIONNAIRE
Results: Based on the marking scale determined by the chief residents, the Chiropractic group (n = 51) showed statistically significant higher average grade than the orthopedic residents. Expressed in other terms, 70% of chiropractic students passed the knowledge questionnaire, compared to an 80% failure rate for the residents.

Conclusion: The results of this study suggest that chiropractic student neuromusculoskeletal knowledge is as good or better than medical residents.

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Post by rational doc » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:18 am

Physician and Sportsmedicine 2002; 30 (8) August
One of every 4 or 5 primary care visits is for a musculoskeletal problem. Yet undergraduate and graduate training for this burden of illness continues to constitute typically less than 5% of the medical curriculum. This is an area of clear concern, but also one in which sports medicine practitioners can assume leadership.

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Post by rational doc » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:19 am

Physician and Sportsmedicine 2004 (Nov); 32 (11)
According to some studies, up to 10% of wrist fractures are missed at the initial evaluation.1 While pediatric fractures are often difficult to detect, this example highlights a problem that continues to plague medical education: inadequate instruction in musculoskeletal medicine in both medical school and residency training.

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Post by rational doc » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:19 am

J Bone Joint Surg Am 2005 (Feb);87 (2): 310–314
In this study, 334 medical students, residents and staff physicians, specializing in various fields of medicine, were asked to take a basic cognitive examination consisting of 25 short-answer questions - the same type of test administered in the original JBJS 1998 study. The average score among medical doctors, students and residents who took the exam in 2005 was 2.7 points lower than those who took the exam in 1998. Just over half of the staff physicians (52%) scored a passing grade or higher on the 2005 exam. Only 21% of the residents registered a passing grade, and only 5% of the medical students passed the exam. Overall, Seventy-nine percent of the participants failed the basic musculoskeletal cognitive examination.

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Post by rational doc » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:20 am

Clin Orthop Relat Res 2005 (Aug); (437): 251–259
A modified version of an exam used to assess the competency of incoming interns at the University of Pennsylvania was used to assess the competency of medical students during various stages of their training at the University of Washington. Despite generally improved levels of competency with each year at medical school, less than 50% of fourth-year students showed competency. These results suggested that the curricular approach toward teaching musculoskeletal medicine at this medical school was insufficient and that competency increased when learning was reinforced during the clinical years.

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Post by rational doc » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:22 am

SO BASED ON THESE ARTICLES FROM MEDICAL JOURNALS,
I THINK IT IS FAIR TO SAY THAT YOUR PRIMARY CARE MEDICAL DOCTOR IS NOT THE PERSON YOU REALLY WANT TO HAVE EVALUATE YOUR MUSCLE / SKELETAL PROBLEM