Ancient bread

A skeptical look at medical practices
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Re: Ancient bread

Post by TJrandom » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:37 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
TJrandom wrote:.

People who eat white rice also eat other starch products and a wide variety of vegetables. Rice remains a staple - much as potatoes are a staple in some western countries. Is your suggestion that people would be healthier (live longer, have fewer diseases, etc.) if they substituted wholegrain bread as a staple?
Actually, a lot of people do eat almost nothing apart from white rice. One result is widespread vitamin A deficiency. About 500,000 children each year go blind because of this. Of course, this is a consequence of poverty.

Eating that much rice is not good. Wholegrain bread would be better, but still insufficient. They need to add greens.
Wait for it... people stranded on stricken ships afloat at sea should not consume the cargo of rice but instead wait for landfall where they can finally eat some grass, even if that means starvation in the process. Finding an extreme case of poverty to suggest that they should eat something else - which of course would be at least equally out of their reach, is quite precious.

Lance – in the various rice consuming countries I have visited – in addition to rice, the typical diet includes a far wider variety of tubers, vegetables, beans, berries, fruits, and fish/meats than I have ever seen served up at the `food trough - all you can eat` restaurants of the west.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:49 pm

TJ

The very poor in numerous countries do not eat adequate amounts of nutrient rich foods. I saw this in the Philippines, but it is also (according to my reading) true in many other rice growing countries also. In fact, in addition to 500,000 children going blind due to a diet too rich in rice and too poormkn anything with vitamin A, there are an estimated 2 million people each year who die of various ills, made worse by lack of vitamin A.

Of course those who can afford it eat richer foods. Duh !

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by landrew » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:01 am

TJrandom wrote:
Wait for it... people stranded on stricken ships afloat at sea should not consume the cargo of rice but instead wait for landfall where they can finally eat some grass, even if that means starvation in the process. Finding an extreme case of poverty to suggest that they should eat something else - which of course would be at least equally out of their reach, is quite precious.
That only happens in the movies nowadays.
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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:07 am

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_A_deficiency

This reference tells of vitamin A deficiency.
TO learn about how action on rice can help, Google any of the many references to golden rice.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by TJrandom » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:43 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ

The very poor in numerous countries do not eat adequate amounts of nutrient rich foods. I saw this in the Philippines, but it is also (according to my reading) true in many other rice growing countries also. In fact, in addition to 500,000 children going blind due to a diet too rich in rice and too poormkn anything with vitamin A, there are an estimated 2 million people each year who die of various ills, made worse by lack of vitamin A.

Of course those who can afford it eat richer foods. Duh !
Yes Lance - but better yet - the very poor just starve to death. So for them, rice would be a wonderful - maybe even a miracle survival food. Rice isn`t the problem. A poor diet is. Saying that those who are starving would fare better on grains misses the point.

You started with rice is unhealthy. It isn`t. But as you say, those who can afford it, eat richer foods. Indeed they do, even where rice continues to be a staple for them.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Poodle » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:27 am

Someone correct me if I'm wrong ...
The problem with rice used to be (in the western world) that it was polished, thus removing the interesting parts as far as nutrition is concerned. Nowadays, westerners (if they have any sense at all) buy unpolished rice. This has a couple of advantages ...
a) ... the complete nutritional value of rice is realised.
b) ... boiled rice is no longer the gloopy, gelatinous mess it used to be in the west.
Nowadays, I don't have to struggle to prevent rice grains sticking together - I can easily produce boiled rice where every grain is separate. I can remember when this was difficult. Long live rice treated in the modern western way (which, I believe, is actually the eastern way).
Actually, I'm looking at this from an Indian point of view, which may be very different from Japanese/Chinese - I hope to be informed within a couple of posts. Get your skates on, TJ.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by TJrandom » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:33 pm

The traditional (over 100 years ago) rice diet in Japan was `brown` (unpolished rice), with only the upper class enjoying the smoother but somewhat bland polished rice that would compliment any other food - much as do mashed potatoes vs whole boiled potatoes in some western diets.

Cooked properly, polished rice is not particularly sticky (except for certain varieties which are grown for that attribute – think glutinous rice which is grown to make rice-cake), which permits easy single grain consumption with chopsticks if that is your pleasure. There are thousands of varieties of rice, and certain ones best matched, for example - with raw fish to create sushi, but which would be wasted on fried rice. Conversely, brown rice would detract from the flavour of the fish in sushi, making it rather unpalatable.

I like bland food - and distinctions within bland, so for example, I would rarely use a salad dressing as instead I enjoy the differences in flavour of the various salad ingredients. Same for rice - polished, or brown – selected for flavour and intended use.

True enough that the removal of the rice germ makes it less nutritious, but then there is a cost to that removal which increases the cost of polished rice. So those who cannot afford the luxury, consume more nutritious brown rice. When stored, all rice is unpolished, so food aid donations to impoverished nations is actually the more nutritious type. Polished rice dries out sooner and becomes almost impossible to re-hydrate for cooking after a few months.

BTW - the rice germ waste (nuka), is free to take from the polishing stations, and people use it to make pickled veggies and miso (adding it to soybeans), which is added to soup or used as a dip for veggie sticks, or simply mix it with veggie shredding’s - so it isn`t all wasted. I gather the nuka and add it to my compost pile to facilitate fermentation and a faster breakdown of grass clippings, leaves, etc. so that I can improve my garden soil.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:51 pm

Polished rice has the big advantage of keeping better, with less insect attack. After all, insects prefer the more nutritious variety. This is the main reason polished rice is the one most eaten, and most exported.

White rice is like white bread, which we call white death. Seriously lacking nutrients. It is OK in small amounts if consumed alongside more nutrient rich foods, but many millions eat it almost alone due to poverty. Vitamin A deficiency is common among rice eaters in the Philippines, Papua New Guinea, Laos, India, and much of Africa. Of course, those poor bastards also suffer other deficiency diseases.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by TJrandom » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:08 pm

I see a difference between our understandings of shelf life and export. Of course I could be wrong on the predominate world-wide practice, having based my understandings upon direct observation and personal experience. Here `excess` rice - that not being targeted for same-year market, is sold to a government agency and stored as brown rice until exported as food aid, or later disposed of as animal feed. I believe we have several years-worth in storage at any one time. Local farmers have large walk-in refrigerators for brown rice storage, and only polish immediately prior to sale. Consumers only purchase a couple of months supply at a time, and most would refrigerate that.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Gord » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:46 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_A_deficiency

This reference tells of vitamin A deficiency.
TO learn about how action on rice can help, Google any of the many references to golden rice.
Yes, it's a real shame about the efforts of some groups to prevent golden rice from coming to market.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/colin-tod ... 71208.html
Last edited by Gord on Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:02 pm, edited 33 times in total.
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Re: Ancient bread

Post by landrew » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:37 pm

Gord wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_A_deficiency

This reference tells of vitamin A deficiency.
TO learn about how action on rice can help, Google any of the many references to golden rice.
Yes, it's a realy shame about the efforts of some groups to prevent golden rice from coming to market.\

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/colin-tod ... 71208.html
Everyone knows that vitamin supplements are bad,
for the bottom-line of Big Pharma.
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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:56 pm

Most of those trace elements are not in short supply. Selenium is in many places. In relation to rice eating, the biggest trace element lack is iodine. Lots of rice eaters, as well as vitamin A deficiency, also suffer iodine shortage (which can cause goitre).

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by TJrandom » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:12 pm

Gord wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_A_deficiency

This reference tells of vitamin A deficiency.
TO learn about how action on rice can help, Google any of the many references to golden rice.
Yes, it's a real shame about the efforts of some groups to prevent golden rice from coming to market.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/colin-tod ... 71208.html
Yes - farmers don`t like larger yields, or crops that sell at higher prices. After all - they would need to work harder to process that additional volume and then find a place to store the additional income. Better to stick with traditional low volume, low nutrition, and low profit crops. [/snark]

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:50 pm

That Huff post article is a classic of stupidity. The writer ignores Nobel prize winners, replacing their expertise with personal opinion.

Golden rice has been accused (mostly by Greenpeace) of being insufficient to solve the problem it is designed to solve. Well, Greenpeace, like most journalists, does not like quantifying anything. You add numbers and you run the risk of being proven wrong, and that would never do !

So let me add the numbers.
The problem is vitamin A deficiency in rice eaters.
The W.H.O. gives a recommended dose of 700 micrograms per day of vitamin A.
Golden rice mark I (blocked by Greenpeace) gives a dose of 350 micrograms per day. Hence their evil logic.
BUT ....
The amount of vitamin A required to prevent blindness and death is only 200 micrograms per day. This is the dirty secret Greenpeace is covering up. Golden rice, even in its first form, is quite adequate to solve the problem it was designed to solve.

Nothing strange here. The optimal dose of anything is quite different to the minimum dose required to prevent seriously bad deficiency disease. Vitamin C is an interesting case. We all know that vitamin C prevents scurvy, but how much is needed ? Captain Cook was a pioneer in this, giving his crew daily lemon juice to prevent scurvy. His dose we now know provided roughly 15 micrograms. But the optimal dose for the average person is 50 micrograms per day. Yet Cook very successfully prevented scurvy.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by landrew » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:47 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Most of those trace elements are not in short supply. Selenium is in many places. In relation to rice eating, the biggest trace element lack is iodine. Lots of rice eaters, as well as vitamin A deficiency, also suffer iodine shortage (which can cause goitre).
Read up: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... tion-loss/
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Re: Ancient bread

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:54 am

I found this site to be quite informaive - fairly listing both sides to the debate,

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:09 am

Landrew

While Scientific American is a good publication, and while what they say in your reference has truth to it, it does not matter two hoots.

The reason is that if a person is eating a good balanced diet, that person will get more than enough of every vital nutrient. For example, vitamin C is needed at 50 micrograms per day for the average adult. Eating two different fruits, even with "depleted" vitamin C levels will give that 50 micrograms. If they consume more, the excess is just excreted.

Of course, if a person is not eating a good balanced diet, they are in trouble regardless of what crops are available.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by landrew » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:27 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Landrew

While Scientific American is a good publication, and while what they say in your reference has truth to it, it does not matter two hoots.

The reason is that if a person is eating a good balanced diet, that person will get more than enough of every vital nutrient. For example, vitamin C is needed at 50 micrograms per day for the average adult. Eating two different fruits, even with "depleted" vitamin C levels will give that 50 micrograms. If they consume more, the excess is just excreted.

Of course, if a person is not eating a good balanced diet, they are in trouble regardless of what crops are available.
I disagree. We haven't begun to determine which elements need to be at optimum levels for good health. We don't know which of the 60 elements we need that are are missing from the soils where our foods are grown.
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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:49 am

Landrew

Nutritionists have been studying this for several centuries. Their detailed work trumps your prejudiced opinions.

Sure, it is a work in progress, but it still beats out your ill educated views. My source, btw, is a review written by Britain's National Health Service.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by landrew » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:27 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Landrew

Nutritionists have been studying this for several centuries. Their detailed work trumps your prejudiced opinions.

Sure, it is a work in progress, but it still beats out your ill educated views. My source, btw, is a review written by Britain's National Health Service.
Most of that work was done centuries ago, was fairly rudimentary, and conducted before factory farms. Nutrients were still being recycled back on the land. Prisoners were fed special diets lacking in 1 item, and if they died, they declared the item a "vitamin."

It's not about me banging on a drum. Just something to think about. Plenty of people are nowadays.
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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:30 pm

The problem, landrew, with "plenty of people thinking about it" is that thinking about it tells you nothing. It is only real world studies that reveal what is true and what is not. The whole business of nutrition is riddled with lots and lots of different crackpots presenting lots and lots of different bull-{!#%@} ideas.

The idea that we all suffer assorted deficiency problems due to trace elements is a frequently expressed crackpot idea. The problem with the idea is the lack of empirical data to support it.

The safest approach to nutrition is to ignore all the new popular books on the subject and refer only to reputable organisations, such as government health departments. Those guys are conservative, and report only that which is supported by good data.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:50 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:... The safest approach to nutrition is to ignore all the new popular books on the subject and refer only to reputable organisations, such as government health departments. Those guys are conservative, and report only that which is supported by good data.
But they do get it wrong… now and again… and in the US at least – from my last visit there, the results are staggering.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by landrew » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:39 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:The problem, landrew, with "plenty of people thinking about it" is that thinking about it tells you nothing. It is only real world studies that reveal what is true and what is not. The whole business of nutrition is riddled with lots and lots of different crackpots presenting lots and lots of different bull-{!#%@} ideas.

The idea that we all suffer assorted deficiency problems due to trace elements is a frequently expressed crackpot idea. The problem with the idea is the lack of empirical data to support it.

The safest approach to nutrition is to ignore all the new popular books on the subject and refer only to reputable organisations, such as government health departments. Those guys are conservative, and report only that which is supported by good data.
So I enjoy the challenge of sifting through the chaff in hopes of finding something of value. I respect that you'd like to handle it en bloc, rejecting the whole subject wholesale. No criticism here, but it's not my approach.
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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:29 am

TO TJ

Of course the authorities get it wrong. One estimate I read recently is that the conclusions in 30% of all scientific papers in reputable peer reviewed journals are wrong. So it is impossible to be right all the time.

But they are still a damn sight better guides than assorted books taken from the health section of your local book store. My own opinion is that, at your local book store, the bull-{!#%@} level is highest in the "New Age " section, but is nearly as bad in the health section. So called health books are rather too often pure crap.

The good thing about the health authorities is that they change their advice according to the best science available. Eventually.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by landrew » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:34 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:TO TJ
Of course the authorities get it wrong. One estimate I read recently is that the conclusions in 30% of all scientific papers in reputable peer reviewed journals are wrong. So it is impossible to be right all the time.
Interesting. I wonder which superior entity made that determination?
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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Poodle » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:47 pm

Patient: Doctor, when I eat bread, it comes out the other end as bread. When I eat steak, it comes out steak. When I eat cabbage, it comes out cabbage. I'm so worried. What can I do?
Doctor: Eat {!#%@}.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by TJrandom » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:25 am

I have it on good authority that for everybody and everything that ever lived and is not still alive today, life resulted in death - no matter what they consumed or the lifestyle they led. Life is obviously not conducive to everlasting good health. Please, just don`t ask me to prove this.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Gord » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:10 pm

TJrandom wrote:I found this site to be quite informaive - fairly listing both sides to the debate,
Golden Rice may seem like a realistic solution for VAD (VAD), but those opposed say the project is deeply flawed.
"VAD (VAD)"?

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by landrew » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:32 pm

Gord wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I found this site to be quite informaive - fairly listing both sides to the debate,
Golden Rice may seem like a realistic solution for VAD (VAD), but those opposed say the project is deeply flawed.
"VAD (VAD)"?

:jaded:
It won't solve VAD (vitamin A deficiency) it only helps, so it's "no good."
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Re: Ancient bread

Post by TJrandom » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:41 am

I am waiting for someone to develop green potatoes, having crossed potatoes with kelp - especially to be used for green mashed potatoes, having included essential fatty acids so that the devastating effects of dry skin are partly solved. Those Idaho potatoes will be toast as everybody asks for green potatoes. Next – baby-{!#%@}-yellow milk, um um good, and good for you too as orange essential oil is added making your face truly shine. Surely a big hit!

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:46 am

TJrandom wrote:I am waiting for someone to develop green potatoes, having crossed potatoes with kelp - especially to be used for green mashed potatoes, having included essential fatty acids so that the devastating effects of dry skin are partly solved. Those Idaho potatoes will be toast as everybody asks for green potatoes. Next – baby-{!#%@}-yellow milk, um um good, and good for you too as orange essential oil is added making your face truly shine. Surely a big hit!
Green potatoes are poisonous. They contain solanine which is a nerve toxin.
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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Poodle » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:11 am

Indeed. It's worth remembering that potatoes belong to the Solanaceae family - the same as Deadly Nightshade.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by TJrandom » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:19 am

landrew wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I am waiting for someone to develop green potatoes, having crossed potatoes with kelp - especially to be used for green mashed potatoes, having included essential fatty acids so that the devastating effects of dry skin are partly solved. Those Idaho potatoes will be toast as everybody asks for green potatoes. Next – baby-{!#%@}-yellow milk, um um good, and good for you too as orange essential oil is added making your face truly shine. Surely a big hit!
Green potatoes are poisonous. They contain solanine which is a nerve toxin.
No no no... no solanine in kelp. But my suggestion was simply to point out the sheer ridiculousness of golden rice, so maybe those potatoes need to be black – gifted from squid ink?

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:56 pm

TJrandom wrote:
landrew wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I am waiting for someone to develop green potatoes, having crossed potatoes with kelp - especially to be used for green mashed potatoes, having included essential fatty acids so that the devastating effects of dry skin are partly solved. Those Idaho potatoes will be toast as everybody asks for green potatoes. Next – baby-{!#%@}-yellow milk, um um good, and good for you too as orange essential oil is added making your face truly shine. Surely a big hit!
Green potatoes are poisonous. They contain solanine which is a nerve toxin.
No no no... no solanine in kelp. But my suggestion was simply to point out the sheer ridiculousness of golden rice, so maybe those potatoes need to be black – gifted from squid ink?
Nobody would eat a potato that is green.
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Re: Ancient bread

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:59 pm

McDonalds uses a particular variety of potato called Russet Burbank. They don't want anything else, even though there are many varieties that are superior in yield, disease resistance, nutrition, etc. But they like the white color. All the others have a yellowish hue.
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Re: Ancient bread

Post by TJrandom » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:45 pm

landrew wrote:... Nobody would eat a potato that is green.
Not by choice of course - but if they were starving... Same for yellow rice when they know rice to be white.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:03 am

TJ

The gold colour in golden rice is not designed in. It is simply a side effect of the new genes. The majot effect of golden rice is that a cup full provides 350 micrograms of vitamin A, and only 200 micrograms is enough to prevent blindness. Sure, it is not the optimal dose, but it has the potential, if Greenpeace and the other crackpots stop opposing it, to save 500,000 children each year from going blind.

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by Gord » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:34 am

landrew wrote:
Gord wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I found this site to be quite informaive - fairly listing both sides to the debate,
Golden Rice may seem like a realistic solution for VAD (VAD), but those opposed say the project is deeply flawed.
"VAD (VAD)"?

:jaded:
It won't solve VAD (vitamin A deficiency) it only helps, so it's "no good."
You realize I'm pointing out that they changed "vitaminin A definiciency" into "VAD" after explaining it by putting it in brackets, right?
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TJrandom
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Re: Ancient bread

Post by TJrandom » Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:55 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ

The gold colour in golden rice is not designed in. It is simply a side effect of the new genes. The majot effect of golden rice is that a cup full provides 350 micrograms of vitamin A, and only 200 micrograms is enough to prevent blindness. Sure, it is not the optimal dose, but it has the potential, if Greenpeace and the other crackpots stop opposing it, to save 500,000 children each year from going blind.
As would be the case for green or black potatoes - the green from the kelp, or black from the octopussies added for the nutrient value. You would choose it, right? I know I would - since I always choose food for the nutrient value, and never for the taste, color, cultural consistency or expectation. But of course it would be Greenpeace at fault, and no other cause that the whole world hasn`t switched already. :roll:  

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Re: Ancient bread

Post by landrew » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:24 pm

Gord wrote:
landrew wrote:
Gord wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I found this site to be quite informaive - fairly listing both sides to the debate,
Golden Rice may seem like a realistic solution for VAD (VAD), but those opposed say the project is deeply flawed.
"VAD (VAD)"?

:jaded:
It won't solve VAD (vitamin A deficiency) it only helps, so it's "no good."
You realize I'm pointing out that they changed "vitaminin A definiciency" into "VAD" after explaining it by putting it in brackets, right?
No.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.