1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

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2himalayans
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1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

Post by 2himalayans » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:17 pm

A friend sent me an e-mail with an attachment on the flu from the Hahnemann Center for Heilkunst that claims that the 1918 flu pandemic was not actually caused by the flu, but by the side effects from vaccinations. That instead of 500,000 deaths from the flu, only 10,000 deaths could be attributed to the flu.

I do not at all believe in homeopathy, but I have to say to the uninitiated the Hahnemann Center's article on the flu looks very convincing. My friend said that after she read the article it made her feel better because she is not getting annual flu shots and she was glad there were alternatives available. Can anyone point me to information that refutes the hypothesis that the 1918 epidemic was actually due to vaccination and not the flu.

Thanks!

Excerpts from The Whole Story: Influenza and You:

Myth: The influenza virus killed some 500,000 in 1918-1919.

FACT: The cause of the so-called Spanish Flu remains unknown. Based
on an analysis of the current figures, even if the flu virus were involved
in 1918-19, only about 2%, or 10,000 deaths could be reasonably
attributed to the flu virus. It is questionable whether the flu was the
actual cause of death or other factors.

Spanish Flu Due to Vaccinations?
The pattern is reminiscent of more recent reports of illness and
death due to vaccinations and drugs (Gulf War Syndrome). According to
one contemporary account by a naturopathic doctor, US troops, sent
over in 1917, were heavily vaccinated in a very short period of time and
very sickened as a result. The local population on their return in 1918
(after the Armistice of 11 November) was also induced to be vaccinated.
The same doctor recalled that only those vaccinated became really sick.
It may be that there was a flu virus circulating, as this is an annual
affair, but the sudden deaths in the usually healthy young adult
population is more likely due to weakening of the immune system from
over-vaccination.

QE
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Beleth
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Post by Beleth » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:22 am

Vaccines work by introducing a very weak case of the disease into the body, thereby triggering the body's immune system and increasing the likelihood that a full-blown case of the disease from another source will be defeated before it is able to overpower the immune system.

In people with extremely weakened immune systems, it is possible to get the disease from the vaccine, but it is very rare, and the prevention rate of vaccines has been proven tiem and time again to be very, very high.

Compare this to the proven prevention rate of homeopathic cures, which is zero. People from the Hahnemann Center are trying to sell your friend something that has never actually been shown to work, even though they will claim that it has.


I thought Hahnemann was the chiropractic guy anyway, not the homeopathic guy. I could be wrong about that. I probably am. It's late.
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Pedantica
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Post by Pedantica » Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:33 am

I can see two big factual problems with this story:

1) The numbers are completely wrong

The 1918 pandemic killed at least 20 million people. The upper estimates vary between about 40 million and 100 million; there were no reliable figures for the deaths in many countries.

Around 20% of the world population was infected.

2) The science is completely wrong

There were no mass vaccinations. And there were no vaccinations at all which actually used the influenze virus. It was not known at the time that the influenze pandemic was carried by a virus. And most of the medical resources during the epidemic went towards trying to isolate the infectious agent involved.

Because there was no vaccine available most of the public health response in western nations like the United States and Great Britain went towards trying to quarantine and isolate those infected, for example through banning public meetings. This failed and the virus spread around the world along known trade and shipping routes.

There were some vaccinations they were for other infectious agents. For example the British Forces received a vaccination against pneumococcus and streptococcus bacteria.

However it seems to me that if these had been responsible for deaths from the pandemic then you would have expected deaths mostly among the relatively small and identifiable groups of people who actually did receive vaccinations. But the deaths in the pandemic spread worldwide with high death rates around the whole world.

Sources:

I am not a medical expert. I want to make that very clear because it seems to me to be highly irresponsible to spread false medical information or to claim something as fact without substantive sources or to pass oneself off as a medical expert.

Accordingly I would encourage you to do some research of your own from medical or other authoritative sources. The information I used to write my summary above comes from two sources: some brief information on the Wikipedia site and some rather more detailed, and in my view more authoritative, information on the Stanford University site.

Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

Stanford
http://www.stanford.edu/group/virus/uda/
http://www.stanford.edu/group/virus/uda/fluscimed.html
http://www.stanford.edu/group/virus/uda ... ml#vaccine

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Post by 2himalayans » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:16 pm

Thanks for your responses.

I agree with the observation that since the flu spread globally (and I am sure in other parts of the world such as Africa there were no mass immunizations at the for other diseases such as typhoid and yellow fever) you can't explain the incidence and severity of the disease as being due to vaccinations which were more localized.

I think the whole setup of the article is interesting. (I wanted to include a link to the entire article, but it was e-mailed to me and I could not find it the article or a link at the web site http://www.heilkunst.com) The format of the article is MYTH:(where a common myth is presented) and then FACT:(where the "truth" is presented), as if there is no question that the information presented in the article is true. It seems to me that this article is more of an anti-vaccination propaganda piece than an attempt at objective truth.

I used to be very much into new age/alternative health stuff, and I wanted to believe this stuff worked. But in my experience, most of it doesn't (and believe me, I have tried a lot of different alternative/new age healing modalities). It would be nice if homeopathy really worked and you could cure any illness with a substance that is totally harmless and has no side effects - but IMO this is just wishful thinking. As I have become more skeptical over the past few years, I now feel angry that people can promote this stuff to vulnerable people.

When I was at my holistic dentist's office recently (not sure how much longer I will be using this dentist; the last time I was there they wanted to cure my allergies with electrodermal testing and there is no way I will do that) the hygienist told me a story about her purchase of two siamese kittens. She begged the breeder not to vaccinate them. But, apparently the breeder went ahead and vaccinated them anyway. Two days after the hygienist picked up the cats from the breeder, they both became ill and one eventually died. Based on her statements, I believe she treated them with only homeopathic remedies - perhaps both would have survived if she had taken them to the vet. I was surprised that she was so sure it was the vaccines that made them sick without any kind of tests to show what actually caused them to become ill. To me it seems as likely that they could have become sick from something else as from the vaccination - especially since both became ill.

It's hard to understand how homeopathy could have become so entrenched in our society.

QE
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Post by flyer1 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:42 am

2himalayans wrote:
It's hard to understand how homeopathy could have become so entrenched in our society.

QE


Mainly because of the "natural good, synthetic bad" mentality that seems to obtain throughout much of society. The idea seems to be that if science created it, (whatever "it" happens to be) that it must be bad for you, or at least suspect, whereas if it's "natural", or derived from a biological source, then it must be good. Homeopathy sounds so good, because it has a solid pseudoscientifical explanation--water "remembers" the poison put in it and realigns its molecules to naturally stimulate the body's immune system--and because it's actually quite old. Homeopathy has been around since at least the mid-1800's, when being injected with distilled water probably saved more lives than being injected with chloroform, which was another popular remedy.
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Post by JJM » Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:01 pm

I think Pedantica did a fair job in this matter.

Flyer1 is correct that 200 years ago homeopathy was better than the alternatives (bleeding and amputation). There is another factor that explains its persistence: in the 1930s, when the Feds began to regulate drugs and medicine, the most powerful senator (Royal Copeland) was a homeopath. He had homeopathy included as medicine.

That points out a problem. Legislatures are often in a position to legitimize quackery. Since they are not scientifically sophisticated, they give licenses to such people as chiropractors and naturopaths.

Note that the "doctor" cited in 2himalayans initial post was a naturopath. Quackery doesn't get any quackier than naturopathy, and his/her opinions are suspect. Generally, they oppose vaccination.
See http://www.quackwatch.org
You can read about homeopathy, chiropractic and vaccines there, too.

Anyone who wonders about the safety and efficacy of vaccines can look at the Institute of Medicine site:
http://www.iom.edu
IOM is the medical branch of the National Academy of Sciences, the most prestigious scientific body. They have specific reports on vaccination concerns, and ca. 2001 they published a blanket report saying the benefits far outweigh any imagined risks.

(Beleth, no big deal; but FYI chiropractic came from DD Palmer and his son, BJ.)

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Re: 1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

Post by rpaul » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:02 am

From my personal experience observing friends and colleagues who get their annual flu shot - they all seem to get numerous colds and flu. I know 11 people who got flu vaccines last year and the media push for vaccinations is now quite evident compared to 10 - 15 years ago. I've never had a flu shot and have not had flu for ~12 years but this is only my experience.

Re: historical facts: People, whether they like it or not are subjective. Depictions derived from historical facts are always questionable with regard to accuracy. Just looking at a section on history in a local library if it is well stocked will illustrate contentious views of history so who should we believe?

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

vaccines in general
http://www.naturalnews.com/025032.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... oland.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: 1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:14 am

rpaul wrote:Re: historical facts: People, whether they like it or not are subjective. Depictions derived from historical facts are always questionable with regard to accuracy. Just looking at a section on history in a local library if it is well stocked will illustrate contentious views of history so who should we believe?
:lol:
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Re: 1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

Post by rpaul » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:28 am

"Great is the power of steady misrepresentation; but the history of science shows that fortunately this power does not long endure." Charles Darwin.

What of the use of mercury in health care for the past 150 years - from calomel to thimerosal to amalgams :?:

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Re: 1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

rpaul wrote:"Great is the power of steady misrepresentation; but the history of science shows that fortunately this power does not long endure." Charles Darwin.

What of the use of mercury in health care for the past 150 years - from calomel to thimerosal to amalgams :?:
You're a CAM person, aren't you?
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Re: 1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

Post by rpaul » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:31 am

What is a cam person ?

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Re: 1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:40 am

rpaul wrote:What is a cam person ?
"Complementary/Alternative Medicine."
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Re: 1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

Post by brauneyz » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:42 am

rpaul wrote:What is a cam person ?
Certainty About Magic?
Crazy About Myths?
Crap, Another Moron? :wink:

rpaul, this is not addressed to you newbie. Welcome. And if you are Ron Paul, I wish you would have campaigned harder. I think we are still ripe for a do over. :D
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Re: 1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:49 am

brauneyz wrote:
rpaul wrote:What is a cam person ?
Certainty About Magic?
Crazy About Myths?
Crap, Another Moron? :wink:

rpaul, this is not addressed to you newbie. Welcome. And if you are Ron Paul, I wish you would have campaigned harder. I think we are still ripe for a do over. :D
And if you're Ru Paul, LOVE your outfit. ;)
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Re: 1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

Post by rpaul » Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:05 am

lol

cam - yes and no
Ive not had a lot of good experience with conventional medicine - I think my doctor is a drug dealer!! anyway that's the word on the street.
But I dont drink my own urine -----yet!!

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Re: 1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:18 pm

rpaul wrote:lol

cam - yes and no
Ive not had a lot of good experience with conventional medicine - I think my doctor is a drug dealer!! anyway that's the word on the street.
But I dont drink my own urine -----yet!!
CAM is a term that covers a vast collection of woo, including medical conspiracy theories.
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Re: 1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

Post by JJM » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:56 pm

rpaul wrote:{snip} http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

vaccines in general [references to more idiotic web sites]
Scopie's Law states “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately ...and gets you laughed out of the room.” http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Scopie%27s_Law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The nuttiness that is Whale.to: Save Scopie's Law! http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/ ... haleto.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Gawdzilla Sama
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Re: 1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:04 pm

JJM wrote:
rpaul wrote:{snip} http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

vaccines in general [references to more idiotic web sites]
Scopie's Law states “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately ...and gets you laughed out of the room.” http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Scopie%27s_Law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The nuttiness that is Whale.to: Save Scopie's Law! http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/ ... haleto.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nothing like having all your nuts in one basket.
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Re: 1918 Flu Epidemic Due to Vaccine???

Post by brauneyz » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:05 pm

JJ, thanks for the link to whale.to, which I have never seen before. At first glance, the number of participating MD's is shocking. I'll no doubt lose myself in amazement for hours over there. Where do you find these gems? :shock:
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel