Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

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Nabarun Ghoshal
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:11 am

Pyrrho wrote:http://www.newsweek.com/id/232781

Not much I can say--haven't read the study.


Dear Pyrrho,
I would be happy if the other posters on this highly specialised topic could realise and express their ignorance about the subject as clearly as you. Most of the persons taking part in this discussion do not seem to have a basic idea about the transmission of impulses through the nerve endings. What can be expected from these futile chats using the platform of this scientific site?

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by fromthehills » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:32 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:http://www.newsweek.com/id/232781

Not much I can say--haven't read the study.


Dear Pyrrho,
I would be happy if the other posters on this highly specialised topic could realise and express their ignorance about the subject as clearly as you. Most of the persons taking part in this discussion do not seem to have a basic idea about the transmission of impulses through the nerve endings. What can be expected from these futile chats using the platform of this scientific site?


Go start your own {!#%@} forum then. You're the one bragging about lying to your patients to feed them anti-depressants. A doctor should have his license taken away for such duplicity. We are discussing our knowledge, and trying to learn more. You are of such arrogance that you would secretly feed these drugs to people, because why, you think you are better, or know better, or just in it for a laugh. I hope your opinion of our futile chats leads you to not waste our time further by sticking around.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by fromthehills » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:39 am

Edit: accidental repeat

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by brauneyz » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:49 am

fromthehills wrote:Edit: accidental repeat

Gee, I thought your "accidental repeat" was a point of emphasis. :D

I'd love to get more involved here, but the MIL is dying of cancer and we're pushing serious morphine, but in the meantime, I've discovered that rum and Coke helps take the edge off the {!#%@} up family dysfunction I've fallen into. What day IS today?

Thanks for the brief reads here guys, but I must admit, I'm not sure which side I'm rooting for. Small "L" libertarians, who value privacy and the freedom to make the hard choices, rejoice. I'm with you in spirit. (Cousin Tom, I raise a glass to you!) The rest of you moralizing A-holes can go f**k yourselves. Seriously skeptical ---- NOT!
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:32 am

fromthehills wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:http://www.newsweek.com/id/232781

Not much I can say--haven't read the study.


Dear Pyrrho,
I would be happy if the other posters on this highly specialised topic could realise and express their ignorance about the subject as clearly as you. Most of the persons taking part in this discussion do not seem to have a basic idea about the transmission of impulses through the nerve endings. What can be expected from these futile chats using the platform of this scientific site?


Go start your own {!#%@} forum then.


That was funny. Have you noticed that we always get one or two members of this forum who want to talk about pure science subjects on this SKEPTIC forum and complain when people take a "Skeptic" view. I'm a little bit suspicious that they come here so they can avoid scientific scrutiny on pure science forums.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by fromthehills » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:17 am

Thanks, Mathew. And Brauneyz, for lightening it up. I actually got angry, which is ridiculous. Maybe I need a traveling mountebank to fool me into taking a chill pill.

It does seem to me that a self-proclaimed expert would have a peer reviewed paper published, on this topic, instead of spending time reading what we have to say. Or at least add some insight that didn't include his little "happy lies" anecdotes. I could go on, but I'd probably cross the line.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by Pyrrho » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:50 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:http://www.newsweek.com/id/232781

Not much I can say--haven't read the study.


Dear Pyrrho,
I would be happy if the other posters on this highly specialised topic could realise and express their ignorance about the subject as clearly as you. Most of the persons taking part in this discussion do not seem to have a basic idea about the transmission of impulses through the nerve endings. What can be expected from these futile chats using the platform of this scientific site?

Communication. There is a chance that some people might begin to understand each other.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:19 pm

fromthehills wrote:Thanks, Mathew. And Brauneyz, for lightening it up. I actually got angry, which is ridiculous. Maybe I need a traveling mountebank to fool me into taking a chill pill.

It does seem to me that a self-proclaimed expert would have a peer reviewed paper published, on this topic, instead of spending time reading what we have to say. Or at least add some insight that didn't include his little "happy lies" anecdotes. I could go on, but I'd probably cross the line.

It's been a long journey for me, but I still occasionally lose my cool. What works for me is that while anyone can bait you on here any time they wish, but it's always within your control whether you choose to bite on it or not.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by rrichar911 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:30 am

landrew wrote:
fromthehills wrote:http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/8/3/91602.shtml

I have no argument with the fact that antidepressants reduce suicide risk in the short term, but that says nothing about the long term effects.


If you read the warning label , side effects, one of them is "increased" risk of suicide.


http://www.biopsychiatry.com/bigpharma/ ... cides.html
Last edited by rrichar911 on Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by fromthehills » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:37 am

rrichar911 wrote:
landrew wrote:
fromthehills wrote:http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/8/3/91602.shtml

I have no argument with the fact that antidepressants reduce suicide risk in the short term, but that says nothing about the long term effects.


If you read the warning label , side effects, one of them is "increased" risk of suicide.


If you read the rest of my posts, you'll find yourself out of an argument.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by rrichar911 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:48 am

I stand corrected.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by JJM » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:47 am

A-number wrote:
JJM wrote:
A-number wrote:... The only people that benefit from antidpressants are the ones who are making and selling them.
So, you are saying antidepressants are ineffective? Proof?
superficially "effective" if they ever are, for how long? ... why can't the problem that is causing depression be addressed instead? ...
What reliable research makes you think that a good therapist does not try to get to the root of the problem? Also, I am not sure it is fair to say that a drug that ameliorates monopolar depression is merely superficial.
JJM wrote:
A-number wrote:What causes depression?
Often, we don't know, ...
A-number wrote:We do know the general causes, we are just not willing to acknowledge them. ...
Who is not acknowledging the causes of depression?

In short, (like landrew) you are making broad generalities (with considerable certainty) about a very complex subject. While I have little interest in this topic, it is quite clear to me that you have been reading popular literature (magazines, etc.) rather than original, medical literature. Does it really make sense to you that health professionals would ignore the cause of a problem?

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by fromthehills » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:14 am

Don't worry A, gun responsibility is something I hold with utmost respect, and would never wield a fire arm, to kill someone unless it was the last resort to protect life.

As for your question, I understand that sarcasm is hard to detect in type. I should have used :roll: when making the statement of needing to be fooled. Idiomatic English is a tricky thing for non-native speakers to grasp, I was making reference to a doctor tricking people into taking anti-depressants, which I find wretched. My wife says I shouldn't judge other cultures by my standards, though

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by landrew » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:58 pm

fromthehills wrote:Don't worry A, gun responsibility is something I hold with utmost respect, and would never wield a fire arm, to kill someone unless it was the last resort to protect life.

I've always suspected that if each of us carried a sort of remote control that could wipe any human being out of existence at the touch of a button, we would be the most courteous, thoughtful and friendly species towards each other that ever existed. As ugly and fearful as it sounds, Mutual Assured Destruction does have it's merits, even though no sane person would wish it.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by fromthehills » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:46 pm

landrew wrote:
fromthehills wrote:Don't worry A, gun responsibility is something I hold with utmost respect, and would never wield a fire arm, to kill someone unless it was the last resort to protect life.

I've always suspected that if each of us carried a sort of remote control that could wipe any human being out of existence at the touch of a button, we would be the most courteous, thoughtful and friendly species towards each other that ever existed. As ugly and fearful as it sounds, Mutual Assured Destruction does have it's merits, even though no sane person would wish it.


I've never seen anyone being rude at the gun range. I think that any law abiding citizen, that wants to be armed and trained, should be. The training is more important than the armed part. I also think temperament is key. When I was 21, two guys tried to rob me up in Tacoma, so I pulled my pistol, and they changed their mind. Sounds like a happy ending, but I had no business threatening life as mine wasn't threatened, at the moment, anyway. Now, I'd easily give up my wallet or even my truck to avoid violence. The truth is, from a practical stand point, a guy would spend far more money in court than his truck's worth. Personally, I think if a guy needs something so badly he has to steal it, his life probably sucks enough, without me shooting him.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by landrew » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:52 pm

fromthehills wrote:
I've never seen anyone being rude at the gun range. I think that any law abiding citizen, that wants to be armed and trained, should be. The training is more important than the armed part. I also think temperament is key. When I was 21, two guys tried to rob me up in Tacoma, so I pulled my pistol, and they changed their mind. Sounds like a happy ending, but I had no business threatening life as mine wasn't threatened, at the moment, anyway. Now, I'd easily give up my wallet or even my truck to avoid violence. The truth is, from a practical stand point, a guy would spend far more money in court than his truck's worth. Personally, I think if a guy needs something so badly he has to steal it, his life probably sucks enough, without me shooting him.

Very sound and cogent comments, except I disagree with the last sentence. I think every crime or act of violence is fully justified in the mind of the perpetrator, but that doesn't justify the crime for the victim. We all have options in life, and if we've made bad choices, it shouldn't be up to someone else to suffer the consequences of those actions.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by fromthehills » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:04 pm

Of course I don't forgive a thief their actions. My point is I can't justify a life, no matter how low, for a possession. Maybe if that possession was my livelihood, and my family would starve if I lost it, I'd sing a different tune, but everybody's got their own line in the sand.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by landrew » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:52 pm

fromthehills wrote:Of course I don't forgive a thief their actions. My point is I can't justify a life, no matter how low, for a possession. Maybe if that possession was my livelihood, and my family would starve if I lost it, I'd sing a different tune, but everybody's got their own line in the sand.

I think the laws of most countries would agree with you, except perhaps Texas.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by Aztexan » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:07 pm

dern tootin, munkeyboy
we once executed a retard because he didn't shoot a burglar.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by Chachacha » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:31 pm

I honestly don't know what to make of the conclusion that anti-depressants are no better than placebo, but rather than viewing it as a failure of antidepressants, I see it more as another indicator of the power of our own bodies. The author of the article co-authored a book about the power of the brain to change itself, "Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain" http://www.amazon.com/Train-Your-Mind-C ... 1400063906 and a blog http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thehuman ... acebo.aspx points out conditions for which the placebo effect is effective and those for which it is not:

In addition to depression, many illnesses show a strong response to placebo treatments. These tend to be conditions for which the body’s own biochemicals, such as opiates and dopamine, act as natural medications. Because placebos trigger the production of these compounds, dummy pills can be almost as effective as real ones. Among the conditions that have been successfully treated with placebos:

Hypertension
Pain
Parkinson’s disease
Psoriasis
Rheumatoid arthritis
Ulcers

Illnesses that do not respond to the body’s natural opiates and other compounds show little to no placebo response either. These include:

Atherosclerosis
Cancer
Growth-hormone
Deficiency
High cholesterol
Infertility
Obsessive-compulsive disorder


Even this partial list raises many questions. Fascinating stuff.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by brauneyz » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:33 pm

ruben lopez wrote:dern tootin, munkeyboy
we once executed a retard because he didn't shoot a burglar.

Uh oh, love, you just made Sarah Palin's hit list. :lol:
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by JJM » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:12 am

A- Your experience and judgement do not serve you well. The first sentence of your last paragraph has no basis. And the final sentence of your last paragraph does not follow from the first sentences.

You need to study science- I cannot teach it to you, or to landrew, in this medium.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by brauneyz » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:06 am

Oh yippee, another one who substitutes Jesus Christ for science, providing a long overdue popcornfest. Thanks. I could use some new giggles. Good luck JJ. :pc:
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by JJM » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:58 am

brauneyz wrote:Oh yippee, another one who substitutes Jesus Christ for science, providing a long overdue popcornfest. Thanks. I could use some new giggles. Good luck JJ. :pc:
Laugh it up :beamup: .

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by fromthehills » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:44 am

landrew wrote:
fromthehills wrote:Of course I don't forgive a thief their actions. My point is I can't justify a life, no matter how low, for a possession. Maybe if that possession was my livelihood, and my family would starve if I lost it, I'd sing a different tune, but everybody's got their own line in the sand.

I think the laws of most countries would agree with you, except perhaps Texas.


You take me out of context here, Friend. I carry a pistol 90% of the time, loaded and ready. I have a pistol in arm's reach right now, but I also carry the responsibility of knowing that my possessions aren't worth taking a life. Having a cooler head is far more important, to me, than winning some silly fight. Though, if I have to, I plan to win.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by landrew » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:51 am

fromthehills wrote:
landrew wrote:
fromthehills wrote:Of course I don't forgive a thief their actions. My point is I can't justify a life, no matter how low, for a possession. Maybe if that possession was my livelihood, and my family would starve if I lost it, I'd sing a different tune, but everybody's got their own line in the sand.

I think the laws of most countries would agree with you, except perhaps Texas.


You take me out of context here, Friend. I carry a pistol 90% of the time, loaded and ready. I have a pistol in arm's reach right now, but I also carry the responsibility of knowing that my possessions aren't worth taking a life. Having a cooler head is far more important, to me, than winning some silly fight. Though, if I have to, I plan to win.

I'm not sure why you carry a gun, if taking a life an unacceptable cost. I can't imagine many situations where the gun would save your life. I'm sure there are a few, but they seem so rare to me that I couldn't justify carrying a gun. In fact, carrying one would probably increase my risk of getting killed.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by fromthehills » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:46 am

landrew wrote:
fromthehills wrote:
landrew wrote:
fromthehills wrote:Of course I don't forgive a thief their actions. My point is I can't justify a life, no matter how low, for a possession. Maybe if that possession was my livelihood, and my family would starve if I lost it, I'd sing a different tune, but everybody's got their own line in the sand.

I think the laws of most countries would agree with you, except perhaps Texas.


You take me out of context here, Friend. I carry a pistol 90% of the time, loaded and ready. I have a pistol in arm's reach right now, but I also carry the responsibility of knowing that my possessions aren't worth taking a life. Having a cooler head is far more important, to me, than winning some silly fight. Though, if I have to, I plan to win.

I'm not sure why you carry a gun, if taking a life an unacceptable cost. I can't imagine many situations where the gun would save your life. I'm sure there are a few, but they seem so rare to me that I couldn't justify carrying a gun. In fact, carrying one would probably increase my risk of getting killed.


Then you are probably wise not to carry. Myself, truthfully, I'm not comfortable not being armed. My wife says she'd rather not have a gun available, because she fears it would only be a detriment. I don't think I'm paranoid, but I don't ever want to be in a situation where I regret not being armed. I live in a very safe place, seemingly. A friend used to say "the odds are low, but the stakes are high". So I have the habit of carrying a gun. I also live in the sticks, and folks leave their dogs to run. I have horses to protect. Around here dogs are a problem, but so are bears, coyotes, and mountain lions. A 911 call here will produce a deputy in about an hour. I truly like it this way, but I carry a pistol, and have a shotgun and rifle handy.

Oh, and taking a life is an acceptable cost if it saves the life of me or mine.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:51 pm

A-number wrote:
JJM wrote:
What reliable research makes you think that a good therapist does not try to get to the root of the problem?

I understand that psychiatrists are the ones who are able to prescribe antidepressants, therapists just chat. And I have nothing against them, though often times they'd sit there and have one talk for next 30 years and still not come up with anything. Not all of them are any effective either.

Qualified clinical psychologists do much, much more than just chat.

As this article illustrates, depression can be a complicated disorder.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/981200ap/cadieux.html


Also, I am not sure it is fair to say that a drug that ameliorates monopolar depression is merely superficial.
I have nothing against that. Can I ask you if you are on any antidepressants currently? I have the feeling if not the certitude that the answer is NO. To which I would further ask why or even why not? I let you answer that first, I don't want to go ahead of myself.

Although I strongly recommend that people not divulge personal information on these forums, I will state that I've had to take antidepressant medication in the past. I no longer need to do so. I will not tell you or anyone else on these forums any more than that. My personal experience, while possibly relevant, is also unverifiable anecdotal information. Also, it's my private business.
JJM wrote:
A-number wrote:What causes depression?
Often, we don't know, ...
A-number wrote:We do know the general causes, we are just not willing to acknowledge them. ...
Who is not acknowledging the causes of depression?
we generally know what they can be on an indirect basis. If you answer to the above question is NO, then that should address a part of the inquiry for you.

In short, (like landrew) you are making broad generalities (with considerable certainty) about a very complex subject.
why is is so complex? I personally don't see it as such.

There are biological factors, which are undeniably complex. Social factors, which can be complex. There may be multiple stressors acting on any given depressed person--life-changing events, physical illness, drug addiction or alcoholism in the depressed person or in their family, fear, anxiety, and other things I can't think of right now.
While I have little interest in this topic, it is quite clear to me that you have been reading popular literature (magazines, etc.)

I do very little reading, I rely on my own experience and trust my judgment.

I suggest that a person's judgment may be more reliable if that person take the time to become more informed about things.
rather than original, medical literature. Does it really make sense to you that health professionals would ignore the cause of a problem?

If they are not, then why are so many on antidepressants in the US without any light at the end of the tunnel?

Many people have been successfully treated for depression. For some others, it is a chronic condition that requires ongoing treatment.
I mean if we know so much, we are supposed to reduce the # of depressed people not increase it. Last I checked close to 90 commit a suicide in the US alone every day. Out of them one teen every 90 minutes. Clearly antidepressants are not having much effect.

Any expectation that medication is an absolute cure is unrealistic.

This article claims that fewer than 33 percent of teenagers suffering depression get treatment, and that of those who do get treatment, 80 percent get better.

http://www.teendepression.org/articles5.html
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by landrew » Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:48 pm

Pyrrho wrote:
In short, (like landrew) you are making broad generalities (with considerable certainty) about a very complex subject.


Any expectation that medication is an absolute cure is unrealistic.

This article claims that fewer than 33 percent of teenagers suffering depression get treatment, and that of those who do get treatment, 80 percent get better.

http://www.teendepression.org/articles5.html

Oh excuse me for being skeptical of what one study declares as truth. If I remember the scientific method correctly, one study is only supporting evidence as long as it is consistently repeatable. We have seen scores of people sent to prison based on flaky psycho-babble and questionable practices such as hypnotic regression, which have since been shown to induce false memories.

Forgive me for lacking respect for a "science" that doesn't always follow the rules of science.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:55 pm

Adolescent depression:

http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/health4.asp

In 2007, 8 percent of the population ages 12–17 had a Major Depressive Episode (MDE) during the past year, a lower rate than that reported in 2004 (9 percent).
From 2004 to 2007, the prevalence of MDE among youth was more than twice as high among females (12 percent to 13 percent) as among males (4 percent to 5 percent).
The past-year prevalence of MDE in 2007 was lowest in youth ages 12–13 (4 percent), compared to youth ages 14–15 (8 percent) and youth ages 16–17 (12 percent).
In 2007, 67 percent of youth with MDE (5.5 percent of the population ages 12–17) reported that the MDE caused severe problems in at least one major role domain (home, school/work, family relationships, social life).
The percentage of youth with MDE receiving treatment for depression, defined as seeing or talking to a medical doctor or other professional about the depressive episode and/or using prescription medication for depression in the past year, remained stable from 2004 to 2007 (40 percent in 2004 and 39 percent in 2007).



CDC depression and anxiety statistics

http://www.cdc.gov/Features/dsBRFSSDepressionAnxiety/

http://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2009/jan/07_0227.htm
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:26 am

landrew wrote:Forgive me for lacking respect for a "science" that doesn't always follow the rules of science.

Like dowsing, for instance.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by rrichar911 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:36 am

landrew

When I was about 6 or 7, a Doctor said that I was genetically depressed, and prescribed pills. What I heard was, your a genetic freek, which of coarse made me even more depressed.

Turns out that the source of the depression was the death of my little brother some 3 years earlier. I had taken blame upon myself. In short I was believing things that were not true.

Once I replaced those beliefs with ones that were true, I was no longer depressed. Thus my life experiences stand in contrast to "take this pill".

I think to a greater degree than when I grew up, we are becoming a society that accepts problems , tries to sweep them under the rug, block them out, what ever is required to avoid solving them.

The pill would have made me feel better, but it would not have fixed the problem. It would not have changed what I believed.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by rrichar911 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:40 am

Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:Forgive me for lacking respect for a "science" that doesn't always follow the rules of science.

Like dowsing, for instance.


There is no reason that dowsing cannot follow the rules of science.

Do the experiment and observe the results.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by fromthehills » Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:54 am

rrichar911 wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:Forgive me for lacking respect for a "science" that doesn't always follow the rules of science.

Like dowsing, for instance.


There is no reason that dowsing cannot follow the rules of science.

Do the experiment and observe the results.


It's been done, and failed.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by landrew » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:38 am

rrichar911 wrote:landrew

When I was about 6 or 7, a Doctor said that I was genetically depressed, and prescribed pills. What I heard was, your a genetic freek, which of coarse made me even more depressed.

Turns out that the source of the depression was the death of my little brother some 3 years earlier. I had taken blame upon myself. In short I was believing things that were not true.

Once I replaced those beliefs with ones that were true, I was no longer depressed. Thus my life experiences stand in contrast to "take this pill".

I think to a greater degree than when I grew up, we are becoming a society that accepts problems , tries to sweep them under the rug, block them out, what ever is required to avoid solving them.

The pill would have made me feel better, but it would not have fixed the problem. It would not have changed what I believed.

I agree that a person can't solve life's problems with chemicals.

I had a bout of depression when I was a teen, and I count myself fortunate I wasn't prescribed medication (or prescribed myself some sort of "medicine"). I credit that experience with the way I learned to deal with life's problems. Since then, I've believed that the way to solving those problems is to either: (A) accept what can't be changed, or (B) change what can't be accepted. To do neither is to be depressed.

Getting over depression for me is simply a matter of getting off the fence. I haven't suffered depression ever since. I'm prepared for whatever life has in store for me with that simple formula.

I'm sure this sounds outrageous to someone trained in the use of psychotropic chemicals, but I don't care. Drugs should be reserved for genetic defects. Since specific genetic defects are rare, so should putting chemicals in our brains. But it's not rare, hence my rant against the over-use of psychotropic chemicals.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:20 pm

Clinical depression:

http://uhs.berkeley.edu/lookforthesigns ... sion.shtml

Clinical depression is not a sign of personal weakness, or a condition that can be willed away. Clinically depressed people cannot "pull themselves together" and get better. In fact, clinical depression often interferes with a person's ability or wish to get help. Clinical depression is a serious illness that lasts for weeks, months and sometimes years. It may even influence someone to contemplate or attempt suicide.


http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/clinic ... on/AN01057

For most forms of depression, symptoms improve with psychological counseling, antidepressant medications or a combination of the two. Antidepressants can relieve symptoms of depression, while counseling may help you cope with ongoing problems that may trigger or contribute to depression.


http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/depression.html
Depression is a serious medical illness that involves the brain. It's more than just a feeling of being "down in the dumps" or "blue" for a few days. If you are one of the more than 20 million people in the United States who have depression, the feelings do not go away. They persist and interfere with your everyday life.


That last page has numerous links to much more information, including several treatment options in addition to drug therapies.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/depression.html#cat3

Major depression:

http://www.nami.org/Content/NavigationM ... ession.htm

Unlike normal emotional experiences of sadness, loss or passing mood states, major depression is persistent and can significantly interfere with an individual's thoughts, behavior, mood, activity and physical health. Among all medical illnesses, major depression is the leading cause of disability in the United States and many other developed countries.


http://www.nami.org/Content/NavigationM ... atment.htm

There are three well-established types of treatment for depression: medications, psychotherapy and electroconvulsive therapy (ECT). For some people who have a seasonal component to their depression, light therapy may be useful. These treatments may be used alone or in combination. Additionally, peer education and support can promote recovery. Attention to lifestyle, including diet, exercise and smoking cessation, can result in better health, including mental health.


Survey:

http://www.nami.org/Content/NavigationM ... Survey.htm

http://www.nami.org/Content/NavigationM ... ndings.htm

http://www.nami.org/Content/NavigationM ... ings_2.htm

Medication guide for Wellbutrin:

http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_we ... df#page=25

GSK wrote:Antidepressants are medicines used to treat depression and other illnesses. It is important to discuss all the risks of treating depression and also the risks of not treating it. Patients and their families or other caregivers should discuss all treatment choices with the healthcare provider, not just the use of antidepressants.
...
WELLBUTRIN has not been studied in children under the age of 18 and is not approved for use in children and teenagers.


Medication guide for ZOLOFT

http://media.pfizer.com/files/products/ ... pdf#page=1

Antidepressants increased the risk compared to placebo of suicidal thinking and behavior
(suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults in short-term studies of major depressive
disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders. Anyone considering the use of Zoloft or any
other antidepressant in a child, adolescent, or young adult must balance this risk with the
clinical need.


http://media.pfizer.com/files/products/ ... df#page=43

Pfizer wrote:Read the Medication Guide that comes with you or your family member’s antidepressant
medicine. This Medication Guide is only about the risk of suicidal thoughts and actions with
antidepressant medicines. Talk to your, or your family member’s healthcare provider about:
- all risks and benefits of treatment with antidepressant medicines
- all treatment choices for depression or other serious mental illness


Results of clinical trials:
http://media.pfizer.com/files/products/ ... pdf#page=5

Obviously, these medications are not for everyone, and nobody says that they are.

As I have stated more than once, expectations that a given drug therapy will "cure" depression are unrealistic. Nobody here, and certainly not the manufacturers, recommends that medication be used exclusively to treat depression. Antidepressants should be considered only a part of a treatment regimen. Antidepressants, as explained in the articles linked above, are intended to relieve symptoms, not cure depression. The rest of the work must be done by the patient and, if they have sought treatment, their qualified clinical psychologist.

Shouting at depressed people, belittling their very real illness, or telling them to "snap out it" are treatments that have never been effective. Telling someone who literally cannot get out of bed because their depression has affected them that badly to "snap out of it" or otherwise pull themselves out of the depression, or to tell them that they should not consider medication is to place a burden on an ill person that they do not deserve.

If you are suffering from depression, talk to your doctor. Arrange for counseling from a qualified clinical psychologist. Consider all of your treatment options and work with your doctors to develop and maintain a treatment that works for you.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by fromthehills » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:32 pm

You can also try what I did, after a bad divorce I had 15 years ago. Irish coffee, Ben and Jerry's, and reruns of Northern Exposure.

This is true for me, but seriously if you have depression take Pyrro's advice.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by landrew » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:47 pm

By all means, talk to your doctor and help him earn a trip to Vegas by prescribing enough brain chemicals to qualify. Don't open your mouth about overcoming depression on your own, because he'll give you a stern warning against it, and how dangerous it can be. After all, he knows your mind better than you do. He has plenty of studies to prove it, all paid for by the companies who stand to profit financially by it.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:23 pm

Nobody here is saying we shouldn't be skeptical of claims of efficacy and safety for antidepressants, or of medical advice. It is wise for anyone to look up relevant information regarding any proposed treatment, and to make decisions for themselves. Unfortunately, conditions such as major depression, bipolar disorder, and other illnesses often rob a person of the ability to act appropriately.

Ad hominem arguments, straw man arguments, genetic fallacies, and other rhetorical failures really aren't helpful.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by rrichar911 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:23 pm

fromthehills wrote:
rrichar911 wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:Forgive me for lacking respect for a "science" that doesn't always follow the rules of science.

Like dowsing, for instance.


There is no reason that dowsing cannot follow the rules of science.

Do the experiment and observe the results.


It's been done, and failed.


I tired it and it worked. No one was more suprized than me.
What really intrest me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the universe ~ Albert Einstein