Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by brauneyz » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:42 am

fromthehills wrote:Well, this has sure turned out to be an exciting night. It's like being in a big house with lots of room mates, and various doors are slamming, and some of us are still sitting in the livingroom.

Well said. I'm exhausted, but think I've caught Ruben's insomnia. I probably stopped making sense a while ago, too. Apologies to all, and off to bed I go.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by Pyrrho » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:54 am

It is apparent that A-number posted something that qualifies as a defamatory, dehumanizing attack. That is not acceptable. I am locking A-number out of this section of the forum and I am considering further administrative action.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by rrichar911 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:12 am

Cultures differ and I'm not here to judge another culture.

So I will instead judge American culture, which from what I can tell has taken a nose dive into the gutter.

I believe in solving problems, rather than being a victim of them. There is no free lunch, even fruit that grows on trees has to be picked. America has moved from a country that "can do" to a country that props up any and every dysfunction one can think of. Dysfunction by definition is illogical. Illogical by definition doesn't work.

There is no better teacher than life, and when people are bailed out of life by covering up their mistakes at the expense of other people who did not apply illogical beliefs, the end of that road is more dysfunction.

Propping up dysfunction leads to dis-function. As in, diss me and I'll cap your ass. Illogical brain patterns re-enforced with reward, means that dysfunctional thinking becomes normal.

Judging results by the smile on peoples faces, ignores the fact that a thief can smile over all the loot he has just robbed from the local bank. Emotions are the result of thoughts. Cheerful emotions by them self do not indicate that healing has taken place.

Solving problems requires changing the thoughts that produced the problems. There is no short cut.

All short cuts that I am aware of simply reward victim hood. i.e. illogical thinking.

Taking a pain pill, to remove the pain caused by a cancer, does not cure cancer. It only allows the patient to live with the cancer, to be a victim of it, and still smile. Nothing wrong with that as long as were also treating the cancer. But in today's America, the pill is all you get, in far to many cases if the cancer is psychological. i.e. the result of stinkin' thinkin' .

Are we looking to solve problems or just looking for smiles, which if problems are not solved, will be temporary.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by vanderpoel » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:14 am

rrichar911 wrote: Dysfunction by definition is illogical. Illogical by definition doesn't work.

No, it is not. Dysfunction is merely an abnormality or impairment in the function of a specified bodily organ or system or a deviation from the norms of social behavior in a way regarded as bad. Logic has nothing to do with it.
Solving problems requires changing the thoughts that produced the problems. There is no short cut.

That's conveniently simplistic. Not all problems are the result of thoughts.
Diabetes causes blindness, no matter what you think.
Multiple sclerosis causes damage to nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord.
No matter what you think.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by rrichar911 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:48 pm

Were not talking about blindness or diabetes, but emotions which are the product of thoughts.

Example: Sam a contract killer is very good at his job, proud of it, and thus a happy person at least on the surface. But Sam also has a sub-conscious which has been blocked off with drugs, and thus does not feel the twinge of despondence over his actions.

The drugs allow him to live an illogical belief system and be happy about it.

Bad feelings exist for a reason. They don't come from nothing. Simply blocking them off with drugs, does not fix the problem.

However, I am not convinced that illogical thinking will not also produce physical disease. Thus a drug that allows one to function as is per normal while harboring a sub-conscious full of lies that they simply block off from consciousness may produce cancer or diabetes. We don't know what causes a cell to do what cells do some trillions of times per day. How much of what they decide to do is guided by brain function and how much is not?

If I had to choose, I would err on the side of having a brain not filled with lies, just in case.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by brauneyz » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:09 pm

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ, rrichar, we're talking about organic brain dysfunction, not little white lies people tell themselves to get out of doing unpleasant daily chores! Enough already with the "Just buck up and be responsible" admonishments. :twisted:
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:29 am

vanderpoel wrote:
However, you can't just dump a heap on our porch and expect us to appreciate that effort. You're required to clean up after your mess and not just run from it. We expect that from a debate.


In between my professional liabilities during the last three days, I searched for my own fault in the whole affair. I found that I had done a wrong thing. In our profession, we are forbidden ethically (not legally) to publish any case record in a non-medical media. It was my mistake to mention the case here (although I followed the ethics to some extent by evading the whereabouts of the patient). This led to the whole set of confusion for which I hold myself principally responsible. At the same time, I think every cloud has a silver lining. The matter exposed the racist attitude of some persons hiding behind the mask of progressiveness and skepticism.

A skeptic person should remember that his or her opinion is against the conventional thoughts held by a large numbers people of the society. By allowing its members to express their free opinion, this site provides them the opportunity to take the role of leaders who might one day show a new way of thought to the society. Hence, a skeptic should be above some conventional meanness, as I feel. At the same time, they should fully utilize this platform in finding out true scientific ways instead of spending bytes after bytes of this valuable platform in idle gossips or childish skirmishes.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by brauneyz » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:13 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:The matter exposed the racist attitude of some persons hiding behind the mask of progressiveness and skepticism.


I do not understand your use of the term 'racist' here.

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:At the same time, they should fully utilize this platform in finding out true scientific ways instead of spending bytes after bytes of this valuable platform in idle gossips or childish skirmishes.

Should? Says who? While I may or may not agree, I think you will find no such guidelines when registering here. I believe Pyrrho is pretty clear in spelling that out. If that is your objective, by all means, implement it. However, I think you'll be in for disappointment if you attempt to police distasteful, but acceptable (non-actionable) behavior. That is what the ignore function is for. Good luck.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:13 am

brauneyz wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:The matter exposed the racist attitude of some persons hiding behind the mask of progressiveness and skepticism.


I do not understand your use of the term 'racist' here.

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:At the same time, they should fully utilize this platform in finding out true scientific ways instead of spending bytes after bytes of this valuable platform in idle gossips or childish skirmishes.

Should? Says who? While I may or may not agree, I think you will find no such guidelines when registering here. I believe Pyrrho is pretty clear in spelling that out. If that is your objective, by all means, implement it. However, I think you'll be in for disappointment if you attempt to police distasteful, but acceptable (non-actionable) behavior. That is what the ignore function is for. Good luck.


When a person uses the term "monkeys" for the people of a nation, I think it is a racist behaviour and very unbecoming of a scientific mind.

Regarding your second question, I can say that I expressed only what I feel. It may not be the declared guideline of the forum but the purpose of the site is clearly written above that reads "Promoting SCIENCE and CRITICAL THINKING". Hence, I think that it should be the objective of all persons joining this site to honestly act for that purpose. Again, that is my thought. If you think otherwise, how can I hold you back? Will it be too much to expect from the persons using this site to refrain from pulling each other's legs (which can be done at many other sites) and concentrate on the topic of discussion with a bit seriousness?

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by brauneyz » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:30 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:When a person uses the term "monkeys" for the people of a nation, I think it is a racist behaviour and very unbecoming of a scientific mind.

Regarding your second question, I can say that I expressed only what I feel. It may not be the declared guideline of the forum but the purpose of the site is clearly written above that reads "Promoting SCIENCE and CRITICAL THINKING". Hence, I think that it should be the objective of all persons joining this site to honestly act for that purpose. Again, that is my thought. If you think otherwise, how can I hold you back? Will it be too much to expect from the persons using this site to refrain from pulling each other's legs (which can be done at many other sites) and concentrate on the topic of discussion with a bit seriousness?

A# has called me a monkey in the past. I do not believe it is a racial thing, as she is of Arab descent, I think. It appears to be a generalized derogatory comment devoid of racial underpinnings. (Unless she was aware of my German/Irish/Croatian background and took to slamming that.) :D

Also, we do lots of leg-pulling here. We engage in at least as much hi-jinx as we do serious scientific discussion. Perhaps if you remain a bit longer, you will see the diversity. There is definitely an ebb and flow to this board. Hope you can find your groove here, but admittedly, it is at times difficult.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by Pyrrho » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:46 am

A-number has been warned and has been locked out of this section of the forum. I cannot take back what was posted without committing censorship.

Despite the slogan and august nature of the organization which has been gracious enough to allow us to run this forum under their banner, we cannot control what people are going to post unless we change to a full moderation model, meaning that all posts would have to be approved before they appear. That might be effective in sanitizing the content that appears here, and would make a mockery of any pretense to "freedom of speech", although I would be the last to call this a "free speech forum."
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by rrichar911 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:50 am

brauneyz wrote:Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ, rrichar, we're talking about organic brain dysfunction, not little white lies people tell themselves to get out of doing unpleasant daily chores! Enough already with the "Just buck up and be responsible" admonishments. :twisted:


Well, that is exactly what I'm talking about.

Everyone who feels bad has organic brain dysfunction. That could not be more illogical, and it means that we are all victims because all of us at one time or another feel bad.

Snort up your nose some Seratonin uptake inhibitor, that will fix your problems.

Pitiful poor us.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by rrichar911 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:01 am

I am wondering what medical test is given to diagnose organic brain dysfunction?

Can you determine this by drawing blood, or is it found by sampling urine?
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by vanderpoel » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:39 am

rrichar911 wrote:Bad feelings exist for a reason.

Rrichar, bad feelings are only for Christians, you guys are all sinners. :twisted:
1 Timothy 1:15, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.
rrichar911 wrote:They don't come from nothing.

That's right, they came from your overlord Christ who only came back for you Christians because you're sinners, a bunch of killers in a feeble attempt to be forgiven by killing some more, because:
“… without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin”. :mrgreen:
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by rrichar911 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:48 am

vanderpoel

Your obviously in pain, take a pill
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by vanderpoel » Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:00 am

rrichar911 wrote:vanderpoel

Your obviously in pain, take a pill

Well thank you rrichar. Actually I feel great doing the devil's work.
All in good fun, don't bring me down. :P
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to study

Post by rrichar911 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:21 am

vanderpoel

Why do some thoughts virtually universally equate to bad feelings, while other thoughts equate to good feelings?

or as I learned in phycology 101, how we feel is determined by what we tell ourselves.

Why is that true?

I have read Freud, and Jung, as well as many other books, such as I'm ok , your ok. What I observe is that up until a couple of decades ago, virtually all such thinkers concentrated on correct thinking. The belief that I'm ok, your ok, creates good feelings, which was the whole point of the book.

But starting a couple of decades ago, much more attention is been paid to chemestry, than what people believe.

For thousands of years people knew the importance of what we thought as it relates to psychological development. We seem to have virtually completely discarded that as being of any importance.

Did it all of a sudden become untrue?


Seratonin leaves one brain cell, having been coded with a specific combination of chemicals. That cell for the lay person is called the thinker cell. The bundle of chemicals enters the "emotion cell" and produces a specific emotion.

What determins how the bundle is coded? Why does thought x code with one set of chemicals , while thought y produces a different chemical balance producing a different emotion?

Exactly why does thought x produce code x' , while thought y produces chemical code combination y'?

If my memory is right and it has been several years since I studied this stuff, there are something like 256 known combinations with the certainty that there are many more possible.

There are two good theories I know of, I'm wondering which one you will pick?
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by landrew » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:37 pm

The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by numan » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:52 am

landrew wrote:By all means, talk to your doctor and help him earn a trip to Vegas by prescribing enough brain chemicals to qualify. Don't open your mouth about overcoming depression on your own, because he'll give you a stern warning against it, and how dangerous it can be. After all, he knows your mind better than you do. He has plenty of studies to prove it, all paid for by the companies who stand to profit financially by it.


Bravo, Landrew, you have a brain that works --- at least some of the time!

You are so right. One should be very suspicious of the whole medical establishment. The medical schools are corrupt, because moneyed interests want to brainwash the doctors for their own profit. The drug companies and medical suppliers are corrupt because they want big profits. The doctors are corrupt because they are very poorly trained about many aspects of medicine (the aspects that don't require the spending of large amounts of money). They think far too well of themselves, and very many are money-crazed (why do you think they got into medicine in the first place? To help people?). As you suggest with the trips to Vegas (and that's only the tip of the iceberg), the doctors are constantly being seduced by bribes and perquisites into prescribing treatments that make big bucks for the medical suppliers, and which have very debatable medical benefits --- to say the least.

Consider just one drug, alprazolam (trade name: xanax). It is a real horror story:

Psychiatric Drugs: Xanax


Xanax (alprazolam), one of the most intensively marketed and yet dangerous drugs in psychiatry....

Xanax is short-acting and more tightly bound to its receptors, and therefore, as already discussed, more likely to cause severe withdrawal symptoms and addiction....

Xanax, one of the most commonly prescribed medications in the country, has been associated with confusion, paranoia, depression, hostility and forgetfulness while a person is taking it. Sudden withdrawal from such antianxiety agents can be living hell for some people. We have received letters from readers reporting nerves "jumping," muscle twitching, feelings of disorientation, fear, insomnia, anxiety, agitation and even seizure.

Death from Xanax in combination with alcohol or other sedatives has been a special problem....

...they point out that any hoped-for benefit must be balanced against known and unknown dangers of long-term use, including the possibility of brain shrinkage from chronic benzodiazepine use....

People who are sedated often do not appreciate that they are thinking more slowly, getting muddled, forgetting things, slurring their words, or losing their coordination....

In another study, after only six days' use, Xanax was found to cause sufficient memory problems to potentially impair educational learning. The investigators warned against taking Xanax before school examinations.




Governmental and medical authorities set stringent guidelines for how long many of these drugs may be taken. Guess what! These guidelines are routinely ignored, and the doctors keep prescribing them for incredibly long periods of time.

One of the most disturbing aspects of many of these drugs is the evidence that they may permanently alter the functioning of the brain --- even after only a short course of prescription!

.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by landrew » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:32 am

numan wrote:
landrew wrote:By all means, talk to your doctor and help him earn a trip to Vegas by prescribing enough brain chemicals to qualify. Don't open your mouth about overcoming depression on your own, because he'll give you a stern warning against it, and how dangerous it can be. After all, he knows your mind better than you do. He has plenty of studies to prove it, all paid for by the companies who stand to profit financially by it.


Bravo, Landrew, you have a brain that works --- at least some of the time!

I'm willing to bet you say that only because we happen to agree.

There are at least as many, and probably more in this forum who think I am completely wrong and spreading potentially dangerous ideas with regards to this issue.

I happen to think the best cure for depression is to set right the affairs in your life that are making you depressed. If you can't manage to do that, then taking drugs is the last resort, if it helps keep you from killing yourself. Whether it can do that for you sustainably for the rest of your life, or help you along until you can get over your depression is a matter of debate.

There, I said it, and I don't care.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by numan » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:54 pm

landrew wrote:There are at least as many, and probably more in this forum who think I am completely wrong and spreading potentially dangerous ideas with regards to this issue.



That is because they are brainwashed and too lazy to look at the evidence.

In this matter, I don't see a great difference between them and the religious types.

.
Last edited by numan on Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by Pyrrho » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:44 pm

numan wrote:
landrew wrote:There are at least as many, and probably more in this forum who think I am completely wrong and spreading potentially dangerous ideas with regards to this issue.



That is because they are brainwashed and to lazy to look at the evidence.

In this matter, I don't see a great difference between them and the religious types.

.

Oh, BS. Evidence has been cited and referred to throughout this topic. Assertions from opposing points of view have even been agreed upon. Where we differ is whether or not to agree to the various strawman arguments and other fallacies, of which there are many.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:16 am

Pyrrho wrote:
numan wrote:
landrew wrote:There are at least as many, and probably more in this forum who think I am completely wrong and spreading potentially dangerous ideas with regards to this issue.



That is because they are brainwashed and to lazy to look at the evidence.

In this matter, I don't see a great difference between them and the religious types.

.

Oh, BS. Evidence has been cited and referred to throughout this topic. Assertions from opposing points of view have even been agreed upon. Where we differ is whether or not to agree to the various strawman arguments and other fallacies, of which there are many.

I'm not sure whether you were addressing both of us together, but numan doesn't speak for me, nor I for him. I don't know if you consider my argument a straw man, but where I consider psychotropic drugs to be oversubscribed, I would advocate other methods first, and the drugs as a second or last resort, based on my own experience.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:05 am

landrew wrote:I'm not sure whether you were addressing both of us together, but numan doesn't speak for me, nor I for him. I don't know if you consider my argument a straw man, but where I consider psychotropic drugs to be oversubscribed, I would advocate other methods first, and the drugs as a second or last resort, based on my own experience.


Your experience is one example. How do you know that will be anyone else's experience?
To put it on a more scientific basis, how do you justify extrapolation from just one data point?
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:27 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
landrew wrote:I'm not sure whether you were addressing both of us together, but numan doesn't speak for me, nor I for him. I don't know if you consider my argument a straw man, but where I consider psychotropic drugs to be oversubscribed, I would advocate other methods first, and the drugs as a second or last resort, based on my own experience.


Your experience is one example. How do you know that will be anyone else's experience?
To put it on a more scientific basis, how do you justify extrapolation from just one data point?

It's one thing to express an opinion, and another to assert something as a fact. If I assert a fact, I'm prepared to cite my supporting evidence. My best evidence is my current state of mental health, but since you probably don't take that as empirical evidence, you'll just have to take it as my opinion.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by Pyrrho » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:58 pm

landrew wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:
numan wrote:
landrew wrote:There are at least as many, and probably more in this forum who think I am completely wrong and spreading potentially dangerous ideas with regards to this issue.



That is because they are brainwashed and to lazy to look at the evidence.

In this matter, I don't see a great difference between them and the religious types.

.

Oh, BS. Evidence has been cited and referred to throughout this topic. Assertions from opposing points of view have even been agreed upon. Where we differ is whether or not to agree to the various strawman arguments and other fallacies, of which there are many.

I'm not sure whether you were addressing both of us together, but numan doesn't speak for me, nor I for him. I don't know if you consider my argument a straw man, but where I consider psychotropic drugs to be oversubscribed, I would advocate other methods first, and the drugs as a second or last resort, based on my own experience.

I wasn't addressing you, but now that you mention it, yes, I think what you wrote there is BS. Simplistic ideas, yes. Repetitive, yes. Potentially dangerous? No. Generally insulting to people suffering severe depression? Yes. If only it was as simple as "getting one's affairs in order" for people suffering severe depression. Unfortunately, it isn't, and such statements are misinformed and insulting that blames the sick person, even if they are derived from the personal experience of the person making the statement. Anyone who has been able to climb out of severe depression themselves is to be congratulated, it's great, I'm glad it happened that way. That doesn't mean that everyone will experience the same results, nor does it make the person making that statement into an informed source for depression treatment.

I would agree that drugs are often prescribed unnecessarily. I would agree that there are drugs on the market that shouldn't be on the market. I would agree that some of those drugs have cost lives, although I would agree that some of those drugs have saved lives. I would agree that drug-free methods would be preferable. However, I also would agree that people often need drug therapy in addition to psychological counseling for the treatment of severe depression, even though I would agree that there are risks inherent in drug therapy. Anyone considering drug therapy should make sure that their doctors are monitoring their blood chemistry on a regular basis and should report any physical or emotional side effects to their doctors.

What I cannot agree with are the ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, and outright uninformed ignorance I've seen displayed in this topic and elsewhere.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by Chachacha » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:15 pm

Many people suffering from depression do an excellent job of getting their affairs in order ... just before they kill themselves.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:01 pm

Pyrrho wrote:I would agree that drugs are often prescribed unnecessarily. I would agree that there are drugs on the market that shouldn't be on the market. I would agree that some of those drugs have cost lives, although I would agree that some of those drugs have saved lives. I would agree that drug-free methods would be preferable. However, I also would agree that people often need drug therapy in addition to psychological counseling for the treatment of severe depression, even though I would agree that there are risks inherent in drug therapy. Anyone considering drug therapy should make sure that their doctors are monitoring their blood chemistry on a regular basis and should report any physical or emotional side effects to their doctors.

What I cannot agree with are the ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, and outright uninformed ignorance I've seen displayed in this topic and elsewhere.

You seem to be saying almost the same thing I have said, but I think our disagreements are mostly by degree, therefore I think your characterizations of my of my arguments are a bit overstated.

  • We both agree that medications are sometimes overprescribed.
  • We both agree that these medications are sometimes needed.
  • We seem to disagree on where that line should be drawn.
Lets just agree to disagree, by degree, shall we?
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by Pyrrho » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:59 pm

landrew wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:I would agree that drugs are often prescribed unnecessarily. I would agree that there are drugs on the market that shouldn't be on the market. I would agree that some of those drugs have cost lives, although I would agree that some of those drugs have saved lives. I would agree that drug-free methods would be preferable. However, I also would agree that people often need drug therapy in addition to psychological counseling for the treatment of severe depression, even though I would agree that there are risks inherent in drug therapy. Anyone considering drug therapy should make sure that their doctors are monitoring their blood chemistry on a regular basis and should report any physical or emotional side effects to their doctors.

What I cannot agree with are the ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, and outright uninformed ignorance I've seen displayed in this topic and elsewhere.

You seem to be saying almost the same thing I have said, but I think our disagreements are mostly by degree, therefore I think your characterizations of my of my arguments are a bit overstated.

The difference is, I don't rely on logical fallacies and/or simplistic examples from my personal experience to make my points, nor am I judgmental of the unfortunate people who feel they need medical therapy for their depression, nor am I judgmental of the fortunate people who have overcome their depression without assistance. I am judgmental of people who are dismissive of the very real plight of people who just can't do it on their own.
  • We both agree that medications are sometimes overprescribed.
  • We both agree that these medications are sometimes needed.
  • We seem to disagree on where that line should be drawn.
Lets just agree to disagree, by degree, shall we?

The line should be drawn by the patient and their doctor.

Drug therapies--including "alternative therapies"--should be subject to stringent testing and review before being put on the market, and they should be subject to stringent postmarketing surveillance for adverse effects, and they should be removed from the market when the risk demonstrably outweighs the benefit, or when the benefit is no different from no drug therapy at all.

By all means, drug manufacturers should have their feet held to the fire in regard to their pharmaceuticals, not because they are "big pharma," but because they have been known to lie. This also applies to purveyors of "alternative therapies." It's a practice that should be applied to the industry in general.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by JJM » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:48 pm

Pyrrho wrote:I wasn't addressing you, but now that you mention it, yes, I think what you wrote there is BS. Simplistic ideas, yes. Repetitive, yes. Potentially dangerous? No. ...
I agree with everything you wrote, except the last part. Landrew has been saying, based on anecdote, that drugs should not be the first-line treatment for disorders. Health professionals can debate this on a case-by-case basis, depending on the known risks and benefits. So, I think the advice is potentially dangerous.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:50 pm

Pyrrho wrote:
landrew wrote:
  • We both agree that medications are sometimes overprescribed.
  • We both agree that these medications are sometimes needed.
  • We seem to disagree on where that line should be drawn.
Lets just agree to disagree, by degree, shall we?

The line should be drawn by the patient and their doctor.

Drug therapies--including "alternative therapies"--should be subject to stringent testing and review before being put on the market, and they should be subject to stringent postmarketing surveillance for adverse effects, and they should be removed from the market when the risk demonstrably outweighs the benefit, or when the benefit is no different from no drug therapy at all.

By all means, drug manufacturers should have their feet held to the fire in regard to their pharmaceuticals, not because they are "big pharma," but because they have been known to lie. This also applies to purveyors of "alternative therapies." It's a practice that should be applied to the industry in general.


Again, that's what I am saying too; a patient has veto rights over nearly everything a doctor advises, especially when it comes to putting chemicals into our own bodies. My own experience has firmly formed my opinion that we are generally better off with less, not more chemicals, outside of a clear medical need for certain medications, such as insulin.

There's nothing inherently dangerous about my point of view, and it is shared by many doctors and psychiatrists, who I think have correctly identified a financial bias. We are individuals after all, with individual rights, and we have the right to make decisions that affect only ourselves, regardless of how they may be judged by others and in hindsight.

I have an elderly relative in a care facility, who was given a daily dose of numerous drugs, and since he began to refuse them all, his condition seems better than before, if anything. This is not proof of anything, but it is the type of evidence that has led many people besides myself to this point of view.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by JJM » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:05 pm

landrew wrote:... There's nothing inherently dangerous about my point of view, ...
http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf The article is titled: "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments."

It is sad to see someone who considers him/herself a True ScientistTM succumbing to anecdotes.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:07 pm

JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:... There's nothing inherently dangerous about my point of view, ...
http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf The article is titled: "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments."

It is sad to see someone who considers him/herself a True ScientistTM succumbing to anecdotes.

In your case, I'd make an exception.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by brauneyz » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:20 pm

landrew wrote:I have an elderly relative in a care facility, who was given a daily dose of numerous drugs, and since he began to refuse them all, his condition seems better than before, if anything. This is not proof of anything, but it is the type of evidence that has led many people besides myself to this point of view.

Oh swell! As dangerous as it is to self-medicate, now we are advised to self-unmedicate. :roll:
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:22 pm

brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:I have an elderly relative in a care facility, who was given a daily dose of numerous drugs, and since he began to refuse them all, his condition seems better than before, if anything. This is not proof of anything, but it is the type of evidence that has led many people besides myself to this point of view.

Oh swell! As dangerous as it is to self-medicate, now we are advised to self-unmedicate. :roll:

Are you medically qualified to disqualify my evidence?
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by brauneyz » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:29 pm

landrew wrote:
brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:I have an elderly relative in a care facility, who was given a daily dose of numerous drugs, and since he began to refuse them all, his condition seems better than before, if anything. This is not proof of anything, but it is the type of evidence that has led many people besides myself to this point of view.

Oh swell! As dangerous as it is to self-medicate, now we are advised to self-unmedicate. :roll:

Are you medically qualified to disqualify my evidence?

Why don't you present some evidence and I'll get back to you? "He seems better ...." :roll:
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:37 pm

brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:
brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:I have an elderly relative in a care facility, who was given a daily dose of numerous drugs, and since he began to refuse them all, his condition seems better than before, if anything. This is not proof of anything, but it is the type of evidence that has led many people besides myself to this point of view.

Oh swell! As dangerous as it is to self-medicate, now we are advised to self-unmedicate. :roll:

Are you medically qualified to disqualify my evidence?

Why don't you present some evidence and I'll get back to you? "He seems better ...." :roll:

I think as long as it's not legally binding to swallow everything a physician prescribes, I'll exercise my right not to do so, whenever I see fit.

I'll bet your cuz would even agree.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:40 pm

brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:
brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:I have an elderly relative in a care facility, who was given a daily dose of numerous drugs, and since he began to refuse them all, his condition seems better than before, if anything. This is not proof of anything, but it is the type of evidence that has led many people besides myself to this point of view.

Oh swell! As dangerous as it is to self-medicate, now we are advised to self-unmedicate. :roll:

Are you medically qualified to disqualify my evidence?

Why don't you present some evidence and I'll get back to you? "He seems better ...." :roll:

Actually, at the meeting yesterday, that was the supervising physician's own statement, not mine, "He seems better without the medication." I happened to concur.
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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by JJM » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:47 pm

landrew wrote:
JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:... There's nothing inherently dangerous about my point of view, ...
http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf The article is titled: "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments."

It is sad to see someone who considers him/herself a True ScientistTM succumbing to anecdotes.

In your case, I'd make an exception.
You don't address the fact that your views are based in anecdote and ignorance (as described in the article which I linked; but you did not read)- leading to advice that is ill-founded and can cause more harm than good. Sure, you can find some health professionals that may agree with you in some instances; but avoiding medicine as the front line is for individual cases. Those who adopt it as a general rule may be on the fringe- but you will never know.

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Re: Antidepressant no better than placebo, according to stud

Post by JJM » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:50 pm

landrew wrote:
brauneyz wrote:Oh swell! As dangerous as it is to self-medicate, now we are advised to self-unmedicate. :roll:

Are you medically qualified to disqualify my evidence?
Suddenly- you want medical qualifications. Do you know what "irony" means. Maybe someone will look it up for you.