Controlling Women's Bodies

A skeptical look at medical practices
Tom Palven
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Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:19 am

Conservative Christians won't quit, except for Laurence Vance:
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2019/03/lau ... ent-do-it/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:37 pm

All religious people tend to be irrational. You can expect nothing different.

This bill, even if it passes, will make no difference. It is really easy to drive across a state border.

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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:34 pm

If one has the money and time, maybe...
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:41 pm

One of the reasons some women choose abortion is that money and time are in short supply.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:47 pm

This one will never end, because no one can agree at which point life begins. The spectrum spans all the way from the point of conception to the point of birth. For one side abortion is murder and for the other side it's a human right. Asserting your own definition as universal, or the word of god fails to make a mark on the other side. Calling it a barbaric practice of forcing women to carry an unwanted pregnancy also falls on deaf ears on the other side. Society has been fighting this battle for over half a century, and there's nothing like an end in sight. I think most people just got tired of it and tune it out.

The simple fact is that there no single point where a mass of cells suddenly becomes a human being. It's a gradual process. Gridlocked attitudes offer no IQ to societal development. Eventually society will move on one way or another, as it has with all social issues so far.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:04 pm

Everyone agrees life begins at conception.

The relevant issue is: at what different stages of development do various rights attach. The Supremes set for very reasonable quidelines in Roe v Wade. Sad and usually hypocritical people want to fight reasonable compromises.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:22 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:04 pm
Everyone agrees life begins at conception.

The relevant issue is: at what different stages of development do various rights attach. The Supremes set for very reasonable quidelines in Roe v Wade. Sad and usually hypocritical people want to fight reasonable compromises.
No it doesn't. Egg and sperm are alive before conception, the only change is that they combine. By "life" I could have said "human life," but it shouldn't have been necessary.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:24 pm

I think we should say that the question is when does a fetus become human.

Having a heartbeat is not it, because even an earthworm has a heartbeat. It has to be related to brain development.

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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:33 pm

The question is a legal one, not a scientific one.
The law can't define when life begins, that is a science question (and the current best answer is about 3.8 billion years ago).

The law can only define when legal rights begin.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:36 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:24 pm
I think we should say that the question is when does a fetus become human.

Having a heartbeat is not it, because even an earthworm has a heartbeat. It has to be related to brain development.
A "human being" doesn't pop into existence like the great gazoo. The human body sloughs off thousands of cells every day which are no different from the gametes that form the embryo in their DNA content. If we some day learn to reproduce by cloning the DNA in discarded skin cells, will there be pro-life radicals running around shouting "murder" every time we take a shower?

It's truly an unresolvable issue. The only solution is to live with the other side's beliefs. Isn't that the foundation of a free society?
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:09 pm

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme- ... 0/113.html

Roe v Wade. Good review of history, science, law, morality. A bit long, Worth a read.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:56 am

Such data as we have suggests a fetus can feel pain at 27 weeks. If it is aborted after that, it will feel the pain of the abortion.

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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by Wordbird » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:41 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:36 pm
It's truly an unresolvable issue. The only solution is to live with the other side's beliefs. Isn't that the foundation of a free society?
No. Not if the other side's beliefs are that murder is okay.

(Note: I am pro-choice. But to the other side, it's murder, and that should never be okay.)

If peoples' conceptions of basic rights conflict, they can't live together.

I wouldn't ask a Klingon, who thinks he has the right to kill if he's insulted, to live with a Human, who thinks he has the right to insult the Klingon without being killed.

The more polarised society becomes (which is a direct result of free society) the more likely these sorts of irreconcilable conflicts will arise.

And the more densely populated a society, the more antagonistic people become toward one another. In my example, the Human is actually the problem. Why do you need to insult that guy? Well, he doesn't. He's trying to use his established concepts of basic rights to get away with antagonising someone without the possibility of reprisal. The more people in a society, the more people are going to want to do this. As space runs out, competitive instincts rise.

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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:52 pm

Wordbird wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:41 pm
landrew wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:36 pm
It's truly an unresolvable issue. The only solution is to live with the other side's beliefs. Isn't that the foundation of a free society?
No. Not if the other side's beliefs are that murder is okay.

(Note: I am pro-choice. But to the other side, it's murder, and that should never be okay.)

If peoples' conceptions of basic rights conflict, they can't live together.

I wouldn't ask a Klingon, who thinks he has the right to kill if he's insulted, to live with a Human, who thinks he has the right to insult the Klingon without being killed.

The more polarised society becomes (which is a direct result of free society) the more likely these sorts of irreconcilable conflicts will arise.

And the more densely populated a society, the more antagonistic people become toward one another. In my example, the Human is actually the problem. Why do you need to insult that guy? Well, he doesn't. He's trying to use his established concepts of basic rights to get away with antagonising someone without the possibility of reprisal. The more people in a society, the more people are going to want to do this. As space runs out, competitive instincts rise.
Perfect example of intolerance. It's essentially a religious belief. "They are wrong because they are wrong."
How do you think Catholics and Protestants learned to get along? They simply stopped pushing their beliefs into each others faces. They don't kill each other anymore, thinking they were avenging god by striking down the disbelievers.
We are learning to do the same with the abortion issue. It's how an evolved society behaves.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by Wordbird » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:23 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:52 pm
Perfect example of intolerance. It's essentially a religious belief. "They are wrong because they are wrong."
How do you think Catholics and Protestants learned to get along? They simply stopped pushing their beliefs into each others faces. They don't kill each other anymore, thinking they were avenging god by striking down the disbelievers.
We are learning to do the same with the abortion issue. It's how an evolved society behaves.
They don't kill each other anymore.

This is what you said.

Killing is the thing that's absolutely off-limits. This belief needs to be shared. Then we can live together.

One side thinks abortion is killing!

I can't say what I'd do if I was asked to live in a house next to a woman who kept having babies and then frying them up for dinner.

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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:24 pm

Wordbird wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:23 pm
landrew wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:52 pm
Perfect example of intolerance. It's essentially a religious belief. "They are wrong because they are wrong."
How do you think Catholics and Protestants learned to get along? They simply stopped pushing their beliefs into each others faces. They don't kill each other anymore, thinking they were avenging god by striking down the disbelievers.
We are learning to do the same with the abortion issue. It's how an evolved society behaves.
They don't kill each other anymore.

This is what you said.

Killing is the thing that's absolutely off-limits. This belief needs to be shared. Then we can live together.

One side thinks abortion is killing!

I can't say what I'd do if I was asked to live in a house next to a woman who kept having babies and then frying them up for dinner.
Oh I give up.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:30 pm

Usually: killing a mass of cells is murder.............but sending 21 yo fully grown people who would rather be at home off to war is perfectly OK.

YOU go figure.................
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:03 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:30 pm
Usually: killing a mass of cells is murder.............but sending 21 yo fully grown people who would rather be at home off to war is perfectly OK.

YOU go figure.................
Well, I confess I killed 30,000 skin cells today when I took a shower.
Actually, double that, because I skipped a day.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:17 pm

Wordbird wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:41 pm
Not if the other side's beliefs are that murder is okay.

(Note: I am pro-choice. But to the other side, it's murder, and that should never be okay.)
This is exactly the problem. I think both sides agree that murder is wrong, but there is a sharp divide between sides on whether or not the fetus is "alive" in such a way that ending the pregnancy is tantamount to murder. The pro-life side maintains that life begins at conception and if they were correct then abortion would be murder, so it completely makes sense that they would oppose it so strongly. I can also understand their outrage that everybody isn't on their side, because [some of] them can't believe that we don't all agree that life begins at conception. The pro-choice side maintains that life begins when the fetus would be viable outside the womb (if it was born very prematurely). It's hard to know exactly when that is for any given baby, so a specific number of weeks (which varies by states) is adopted to err on the side of being slightly earlier than that point to avoid accidentally terminating a pregnancy that is viable. In their minds, the abortion is only a medical procedure being carried out on the mother for something that has the potential to become alive, but which is not yet.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:22 pm

All of which really highlight what Roe v Wade was all about: OK........its alive. Now: what rights should attach at what stage of development? I don't think any reasonable person argues a fertilized egg is a "human being" (its only a potential human being and arguments elsewise are just BS) and killing a human being is what you need to do to commit murder.

Seems rather simple.................that plus 80% (sic) of Right to Lifers choose to abort when its their own ass on the line..........
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:34 pm

This debate would go on for a millennium, and no one would ever convince everyone else they had the definitive point where a human comes into being as a "human being." Intolerance is a dead end. Civilized people know how to deal with an impasse. It's simply being tolerant to other points of view.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:26 pm

Yes...........and therefore?
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:14 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:26 pm
Yes...........and therefore?
And therefore we have to stop trying to force other people to change their opinions. It's called tolerance.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by Wordbird » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:42 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:14 pm
And therefore we have to stop trying to force other people to change their opinions. It's called tolerance.
Okay but there are some thing people can't be expected to tolerate.

I argue necessary and sufficient of that is basic rights.

What would you do if someone said this to you?: "I may kill you. My culture gives me that right. Now hold still while I insert this sacrificial knife into your aorta..."

Would you tolerate his killing of you?

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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by landrew » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:35 am

Wordbird wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:42 pm
landrew wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:14 pm
And therefore we have to stop trying to force other people to change their opinions. It's called tolerance.
Okay but there are some thing people can't be expected to tolerate.

I argue necessary and sufficient of that is basic rights.

What would you do if someone said this to you?: "I may kill you. My culture gives me that right. Now hold still while I insert this sacrificial knife into your aorta..."

Would you tolerate his killing of you?
You'll never change win any arguments in the abortion debate. It's been raging for decades, and we're no closer to any resolution.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:16 am

landrew wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:22 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:04 pm
Everyone agrees life begins at conception.

The relevant issue is: at what different stages of development do various rights attach. The Supremes set for very reasonable quidelines in Roe v Wade. Sad and usually hypocritical people want to fight reasonable compromises.
No it doesn't. Egg and sperm are alive before conception, the only change is that they combine. By "life" I could have said "human life," but it shouldn't have been necessary.

Every Sperm is Sacred

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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:09 pm

landrew probably agrees that every sperm is half a human being.......................
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by landrew » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:20 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:09 pm
landrew probably agrees that every sperm is half a human being.......................
You must really try to be dumb sometimes.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:16 pm

How would you phrase it lame one?
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by Cadmusteeth » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:38 pm

In very simple terms, bobbo is right.

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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:42 pm

Well thanks Cadmusteeth. I know you had to read more than two up to get the context for that. landrew has no sense of humor at all. Ha, ha...... and thats not all he lacks not to reference a stick that is too long or too thick.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by Wordbird » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:49 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:42 pm
landrew has no sense of humor at all.
I don't know what you're talking about. I was cracking up through the whole episode he got his name from.

"You are not of the body!"

Wordbird: AHAHAHAHAHA *spews soda out his nose*

Anyone who'd name himself Landrew has got a supreme sense of humour.

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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:18 am

I did not witness that routine.

Still haven't.
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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by landrew » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:53 pm

The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Controlling Women's Bodies

Post by Wordbird » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:19 am

landrew wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:53 pm
http://www.trekkieguy.ca/1/21/landru.wav
Upvoted 'cause it's funny. Cracked up again. Thank you.

My cat was near me. She jumped about four feet in the air and landed dangerously close to my head with her claws sprawling out.

I could have lost an eye.

Woulda been worth it.