Going to Hell in a handbasket

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:07 am

Well, I feel your Pain TP, and your reaction seems reasonable to me.

Ha, ha.........heres what I see from your excellent response: "I label myself................"/////doesn't matter what comes next. Hitler used to label peoples and what not...ie: Labels ALWAYS lead to bad thinking===>especially when you do it yourself to yourself. Not that a particular label can't be accurate and helpful....but almost never those of popular conceit or political posturing. I label myself as per my nom de flame, but a few others as well that I use from time to time. I would describe myself as many do as a social liberal and an economic conservative: neither DESCRIPTION to be a LABEL.

Hitler was a war monger, was he a neo conservative? Might be that physics thing cropping up again. Godwins Law has an exception and that is when you are discussing Hitler?.......and all things Nazi. Debateable but "Going to Hell in a Handbasket" seems close enough.

Matt does seem to cling to certain neo conservative pro Gubment positions.........but not to the Hitler level from what I have seen. Hard to tell though as with the exception of the last few days, he tends not to answer direct questions to bring such foibles out.
Do you follow me? My point was not to tar socialists by lumping them with warmonger Hitler, but to lump warmonger "Ellard" with Hitler.
I do follow you. do you recognize that if that is the point you want to make, then you should make THAT point and not get sidetracked into issues of whether or not Hitlers Party was socialist or not? Matt is expert at this sideshow. I don't know why he does it, but then, why am I so uniformily contrarian???

to each our own.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:51 am

FREEEEEEEEDOM and stifling ones self. Its rankling me, so I will address it. It is too error prone to try and LABEL Matt as "neo conservative" or "pro Gubment" except as a quick reference or throw away line. MUCH BETTER: and the goal to always hit: the specifics of any issue WITHOUT the labels. The issue of the moment: should Assange stand trial for espionage or whatever variation you please. I say NO because I value Truth and INFORMATION over fanciful and PRETEXTUAL claims of National Security.

Course, that could all change when the sealed documents are revealed.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:53 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote:Well, this looks like damning evidence against Tom Palven........except.....given Matts track record I would have to see the cut and paste quotes for Matts own accuracy rather than manipulation.
I'm not that interested in your opinion. It's the people on the anti-holocaust denial forum that know me and the quality of my work that already know about Tom Palven and his propaganda.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=27757&p=657287&hilit=labor#p657287

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:54 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote:Matt does seem to cling to certain neo conservative pro Gubment positions.
List them. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:05 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:54 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote:Matt does seem to cling to certain neo conservative pro Gubment positions.
List them. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thats a fair challenge. If our positions were reversed, I'd be posting something like: "You are so stupid you haven't read what I posted on this forum in a different thread."....hmmm, not as stinging as I'd like. I'm just not good at posturing.

so......I was mostly agreeing with Palven who first made that comment. I still think its true...so why?

and the answer is Assange. You think he should stand trial, I don't. My position is liberal, yours is conservative. My position values truth and transparency especially of government actions, yours advocates secrecy and the public being kept in the dark. I have more, but I don't want to confuse you.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:49 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:List them. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote: a fair challenge.

...and the answer is Assange. You think he should stand trial, I don't. My position is liberal, yours is conservative.
No. I am a lawyer and believe in due process, you don't. That I am a socialist and liberal does not mean I ignore the law, That's what Trump does.

Secondly, Assange has not stated or evidenced what he actually did. If Assange wittingly conspired with the Russian government against the USA and Australia for financial gain, then that's for the court to review, not people on the internet. That's what Trump does, using Twitter.

What are my other conservative characteristics?

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:23 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:49 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:List them. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote: a fair challenge.

...and the answer is Assange. You think he should stand trial, I don't. My position is liberal, yours is conservative.
No. I am a lawyer and believe in due process, you don't. That I am a socialist and liberal does not mean I ignore the law, That's what Trump does.

Secondly, Assange has not stated or evidenced what he actually did. If Assange wittingly conspired with the Russian government against the USA and Australia for financial gain, then that's for the court to review, not people on the internet. That's what Trump does, using Twitter.

What are my other conservative characteristics?

1. Assange is not an American citizen and cannot be accused of being a traitor to the US.

2. Why should be accused of criminal activity for exposing THE TRUTH about US actions?

3. Why don't you consider him a whistleblower?

4. Liberals support him while neoconservatives and conservative hate his guts, which puts you squarely on the side of conservatives and neoconservatives, despite trying to label yourself a socialist.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:31 am

Matt: everyone believes in apple pie, cold beer, and due process. That does not justify withholding common sense evaluations BASED ON what evidence is on view. Nor does it deny anyone with values to express and apply them. Anyone doing that is using due process as PRETEXT to EMPOWER THE GUBMENT to harass journalist and truth tellers in order to restrict FREEEEEEEEDOM and access to information by the citizens of their country.

My definition of socialist does not go to the Assange vs The State issues. I consider myself a social liberal, libertarian in spots, and as near an absolute advocate of Freedom of Speech as you can fashion ((actually about the same position as currently supported by the USA Supreme Court as opposed to other lesser standards found elsewhere in the World that do not have a First Amendment)). To restrict speech/punish speech the governmental need/interest in keeping whatever was secret secret, the evidence must be overwhelming. So far, I haven't heard or read anything that arises to even a 50/50 push on Assange......so due process includes the gubment NOT BRINGING groundless lawsuits that even when lost still infringe on Free Speech. PULEEEESE don't bark out that due process is provided only by appearance in court. We are talking what "should be" the gubments position. Mine is liberal......yours is to the right and very typical of neocons whatever your position is on other social issues.

I apply the legal concepts involved and find Assange should not even be charged. That position is more "liberal" than yours. Compared to my position, yours is neo conservative and pro gubment. The label stands as long as i am to the left of you........and I am on this issue.

No one is ignoring the law: I say you aren't even trying to apply it.....turning over your Darwin Given Common Sense to some unknown operative of Government secrecy interests. Thats how fascism starts, I say apply stare decisis (thats prior court rulings on point such as the Pentagon Papers case which dismissed the charges against Ellsberg. Due Process says that case should be followed by the prosecutors if they are purely applying the law and not some other extra legal interests.

Assange has TOTALLY EVIDENCED WHAT HE DID: HE PUBLISHED THE Manning papers and the Hillary/DNC hacked documents. As stated, I DON'T CARE what his motives were beyond getting "the truth out there." Of course he conspired, thats what every reporter does. Of course he got paid, or I assume so.......like all of us, he still has to live. What standard of living do you demand reporters experience to be free of whatever issue you think being paid to report the truth is?

The law is the law. Peoples opinions are peoples opinions. You mix and match according to your argument. Ha, ha........I suppose one could say the Government Attorneys are just "inviting" Assange into the Courthouse? Is that your consistent position Matt?? "We're the gubment, we're here to help you."

Silly rabbit.
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:47 am

Tom Palven wrote: Assange is not an American citizen and cannot be accused of being a traitor to the US.
The word "traitor" does not appear in the US Espionage act you complete idiot. . No Russian illegal spying in the USA is a USA citizen. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:Why should be accused of criminal activity for exposing THE TRUTH about US actions?
The criminal activity is defined by the legislation of the Espionage Act (1917). Julian Assange did not read the 1,5 million documents and had no idea if those documents were true of not. We know know he consciously published USA, UK and Australian secrets supplied to him by the GRU of the Russian Federation knowing their intention was to cause harm to the USA. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote: Why don't you consider him a whistleblower?
For the tenth time, Assange did not read the 1,5 million documents supplied to him by the GRU of the Russian Federation and had no knowledge if he was whistleblowing or passing on stolen USA, UK and Australian secrets . :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote: Liberals support him while neoconservatives and conservative hate his guts,
Total crap, you complete idiot. Assange is despised by educated liberals as he allowed the GRU of the Russian Federation to make your right wing hero, Donald Trump president. You are an extremist right winger who loves Assange, you complete idiot. :lol: :lol: :lol:

"How did WikiLeaks go from darling of the liberal left and scourge of American imperialism to apparent tool of Donald Trump’s divisive, incendiary presidential campaign?"
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/ ... s-happened

"Julian Assange is no hero of the left"
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ju ... 65911.html

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:50 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: The law is the law.
The common law states all people will be treated equally. Hitler gave "special dispensations" without consulting the independent judiciary. Tom Palven is OK with Hitler doing that. What about you? :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:16 am

Disgusting.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:47 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:50 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: The law is the law.
The common law states all people will be treated equally. Hitler gave "special dispensations" without consulting the independent judiciary. Tom Palven is OK with Hitler doing that. What about you? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Stop digging Matt....your stupid hole is deep enough. Hitler has nothing to do with Assange much less any dispensations special or otherwise.

Yes.....I support all people similarly situated being treated the same. Justice is blind to the social status of those charged with crimes. More relevantly to this kerfuffle and your obfuscation the legal authority should be blind and treat all journalists the same when they report information they would rather have been kept secret. IOW: Apply the Pentagon Papers analysis to all potential violaters and make the independent judgement you rail against but will not offer your own.

Its real simple. Its not about labels and not about dead dictators and whether or not they were whatever label you have. Its about: do you want a society where the government can claim a war being fought 6000 miles away is on the up and up with all safety against collateral damage being taken with missions being called off if there is any danger to the public WHILE THE TRUTH IS: routinely civilians are targets as if for sport.

Snowden often gets the same fascists threat of due process for the same reasons/arguments/and non response you have with Assange and I say also treat him the same as any other journalist reporting the truth. Its even worse with Snowden because in his release of secret information the gubment admitted they had been lying and "supposedly" changed the way they surveil the American and World public. But they still want to put Snowden on trial. The ONLY reason this makes sense is to put a freezing chill on the Free Press so that the gubment can do whatever they want to.

I dont' support prosecuting journalists for reporting the truth. citing due process is just a dodge as its definitional as to when DP kick in.

Why don't you support the release of truth Matt?
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:43 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:16 am
Disgusting.
I hope that you aren't referring to me, landrew, because like most of "Ellard's" comments, his comment about me being okay with Hitler's actions is totally absurd.

He insisted in post after post that I never went to college. Then he insisted that I never graduated from Cornell, and he still insists that I never took any economics courses while at Cornell, that I had a career as a park ranger, and that I am a conservative, getting my political views from Sean Hannity and Stormfront, whatever that is, all of which is totally fabricated.

Meanwhile, he has constantly defended lying neoconservatives James Clapper and John Brennan and attacked liberal whistleblowers Assange, Snowden, and Manning.

Imho his political positions are those of a neoconservative warmonger, and yet in his Sunday Oct. 7, 4:46 AM post in the History Repeats Itself in Afghanistan thread he said:

"You are the worst form of right wing scum and it is you faking news to support Trump.
You are a disgusting conservative hypocrite. Please leave the forum immediately."

For reasons I can only guess, he continues to troll my every anti-war comment with baseless ad hominems.

I hope that you don't take his ridiculous comment above about me seriously.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:52 pm

Here's a Pro Tip: when a post is completely ambiguous, don't think it applies to you, unless it is favorable and you happen to like cheap compliments.

Ha, ha.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:19 pm

I'll just say unambiguously that certain basic and reasonable standards are not being upheld in this thread.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:40 pm

Well, thats good to know. so what was disgusting? I honestly don't have a clue.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:00 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:40 pm
Well, thats good to know. so what was disgusting? I honestly don't have a clue.
Ask yourself why this thread was locked for a few days.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:29 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:00 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:40 pm
Well, thats good to know. so what was disgusting? I honestly don't have a clue.
Ask yourself why this thread was locked for a few days.
If you're jsut going to make a vague statement and then not provide a simple direct answer to a simple question you are useless to this discussion, and I would ask you, with all due respect, to go away.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:20 pm

The problem, Tom, is that the thread was closed due to delivered insults. To answer what was so disgusting requires specific statements which, in their own right, will be insults and therefore repeating the first offences.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:54 am

landrew wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:00 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:40 pm
Well, thats good to know. so what was disgusting? I honestly don't have a clue.
Ask yourself why this thread was locked for a few days.
I never have a clue to why Pyrrho takes action. That he doesn't like something?....sure....but what?? You know.....specifically. I doubt you know either, so: what did you find disgusting?

I found NOTHING disgusting. some people have thick skin, others have armor, I have no interest at all. That which may in fact be disgusting is simply ignored, always looking for the Beef of the response. As I posted...I found the discussion actually taking a turn to the illuminating when it got frozen. Here is something that is disgusting: anything that is going to hell in a handbasket. Hell is disgusting. Seems hard not touch on disgusting when such issues are explored. it goes to a comment Pyyrho has made on several occasions: its not that important....this forum...or perhaps more narrowly those issues and people contesting. And that ironically is why disgusting without explanation is rather disgusting itself. The hightest and best use of this forum is an exchange of ideas and supporting arguments. Not one word conclusions floating on their own.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:56 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:20 pm
The problem, Tom, is that the thread was closed due to delivered insults. To answer what was so disgusting requires specific statements which, in their own right, will be insults and therefore repeating the first offences.
Thats not what Pyyrho posted. Lance...you make and respond to disgusting points all the time without giving insult yourself. A role model for us all...........why do you think with training the rest of us could not come up to your mark?
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:06 am

landrew wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:19 pm
I'll just say unambiguously that certain basic and reasonable standards are not being upheld in this thread.
Would it be too disgusting to note that your answer is totally ambiguous. Not worthy of being responded to except for its demonstrated inconsistency. Things worthy of being ignored.

But I note landrew that you are much like Lance. Both of you do post without resort to name calling. Matt loves to use "stupid" "idiot" and "liar" a lot. I find myself eventually responding in kind but I also note the overlap in calling a person stupid/idiot/liar vs calling the ideas/posts stupid/idiot/inaccurate. Easy to call something in that mix "over heated" and freeze it for a chill out......if you want to.......especially if someone actually complained? Ha, ha. complainers. "Lets have a heartfelt discussion on issues of great import....but not upset anyone." Yeah....thats the ticket.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:12 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:29 pm
landrew wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:00 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:40 pm
Well, thats good to know. so what was disgusting? I honestly don't have a clue.
Ask yourself why this thread was locked for a few days.
If you're jsut going to make a vague statement and then not provide a simple direct answer to a simple question you are useless to this discussion, and I would ask you, with all due respect, to go away.
It won't go away, so I'll throw my two cents in: IMO/value system IN A TALK FORUM: its bad form to suggest anyone should leave. Talk better: yes. Thats what I mean when I post STFU....although as almost pure invective, I haven't used it in years. it does have a catchy ring....but its use is disfavored........I assume, because it is disgusting.

Encourage all people to stay....and just talk better.......as I am doing to you. Just as Pyyrho does, with different standards and obligations.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:17 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:The common law states all people will be treated equally. Hitler gave "special dispensations" without consulting the independent judiciary. Tom Palven is OK with Hitler doing that. What about you?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Stop digging Matt....
I'm not digging. I'm informing you.

You and Tom Palven don't think the Attorney General, despite Assange meeting the legal requirement for indictment, should indict Assange because "you two think he told the truth", although Assange has not been interviewed to see he told the truth at all. You both want to ignore due process.

Adolf Hitler let the SA and murderers of Jews off, for Crystal Night, with no judicial review, because Hitler thought the Jews were bad and the SA was doing a good thing.

You two don't think the independent judiciary is required anymore. Neither did Hitler.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:25 am

Tom Palven wrote:I hope that you aren't referring to me, landrew, because like most of "Ellard's" comments, his comment about me being okay with Hitler's actions is totally absurd.
You are OK with Hitler's non-legal logic and dictatorial powers. See the post above.

You then fake Hitler quotes and fake the name of his party, to try distance your extreme right wing beliefs, from Hitler's, by pretending Hitler was a socialist :lol: :lol:

Do you deny faking and claiming Hitlers party was called "National Socialist Labor Party" as you were arguing with members of the Australian and UK Labor parties?

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:06 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:17 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:The common law states all people will be treated equally. Hitler gave "special dispensations" without consulting the independent judiciary. Tom Palven is OK with Hitler doing that. What about you?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Stop digging Matt....
I'm not digging. I'm informing you.
[/color]
If you were informing, I'd be digging it .... EVEN IF I disagreed with what you were saying. but you are just spreading nonsense and nonsequiters with your (increasing) references to Hitler. JUST STOP IT. Try to get closer to relevance.

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:17 am
You and Tom Palven don't think the Attorney General, despite Assange meeting the legal requirement for indictment, should indict Assange because "you two think he told the truth", although Assange has not been interviewed to see he told the truth at all.
Thats partially correct BECAUSE as the saying goes "You can indict a ham sandwich..." ie: its not a high burden to find POSSIBLE violations of law. Such findings though in a system clear of gubment interference will also take into account the obvious LAWS THAT PROTECT THE CONDUCT AT ISSUE. THAT is what the AG is not doing in this case. In fact, I don't think Assange would have been charged if the AG was acting totally on his own with only the LAW in mind. No....its someone in the Gubment wanting to squealch free speech that is INSTRUCTING the AG to file charges. THAT is not due process but rather is politiczation and punishment of the Free Press....part of our Constitutional FREEEEEEEEDOMS to offset the power of an oppressive gubment.

Assange does not need to be NOR SHOULD HE BE interviewed. What he "told" is in print for all to see. Thats what you are objecting to.....what more is needed??? Plainly....its just harassment. YOU are ok with this because its not happening to you. Thats how creeping fascism works.


Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:17 am
You both want to ignore due process.
Quite the opposite as already posted. I want ALL of due process to apply....right from the start....not AFTER Assange is arrested.



Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:17 am
Adolf Hitler let the SA and murderers of Jews off, for Crystal Night, with no judicial review, because Hitler thought the Jews were bad and the SA was doing a good thing.

You two don't think the independent judiciary is required anymore. Neither did Hitler. [/color]
And what would Hitler have done to any person/reporter publishing THE TRUTH of the matter. Fact is: its YOU who have buddied up to Hitler. Those type of arguments are inane...and easily reversed. Why don't you stop it.......and get relevant?
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:42 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: you are just spreading nonsense and nonsequiters Try to get closer to relevance.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:BECAUSE as the saying goes "You can indict a ham sandwich..."
The Espionage Act (1917) clearly states the threshold requiring indictment. It does not say you can indict a "ham sandwich."

Perhaps you and Tom Palven should bother to actually read the legislation before posting again.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:57 am

Tom Palven wrote:He insisted in post after post that I never went to college.
Tom Palven wrote:Although it was not required reading in my economics courses at Cornell, (The Wealth of Nations (Adam Smith) was)
http://www.discussionworldforum.com/sho ... php?t=4854

Nope. You lied and said you studying economics at Cornell. In fact you studied Wildlife Management. You then came to this forum and insisted that Adam Smith was not an economist. Adam Smith / Father of economics
Adam Smith.jpg
You simply tell lies to promote your extreme right wing and anti-socialist propaganda. When I asked you what Adam Smith's "invisible hand" was you ran away as you didn't have a clue what Adam Smith wrote. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:59 am

No it doesn't. If anything it sets the predicate or the requirements BEFORE an indictment "should" stand, not a requirement to file, THAT is just silly and OBVIOUSLY not the case. Lots of crooks go unindicted. They are even called that and given Code Names and Numbers. AND you are avoiding THE WHOLE POINT: which is prosecutorial discretion....which is absent when the AG is DIRECTED to prosecute for political reasons.

Why don't you address the CONTROLLING LAW on point: the Pentagon Papers Case? Due Process requires the indictment to be DISMISSED immediately on presentation to the Court even on its own motion. The whole case against Assange is a ruse..........................A PRETEXT.

Why are you a shill for overreaching gubment action? Keeping the TRUTH from the public. What is your interest in THAT?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:02 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote: No it doesn't.
Yes it does Bobbo. You haven't actually read the Espionage Act (1917). remember? :lol: :lol:

Try read the Act before posting again.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote: Lots of crooks go unindicted. They are even called that and given Code Names and Numbers.
Give me some examples. Are you talking about negotiated plea bargains, which requires full disclosure?
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:09 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:02 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote: No it doesn't.
Yes it does Bobbo. You haven't actually read the Espionage Act (1917). remember? :lol: :lol:

Try read the Act before posting again.
Why would you just make up stuff you can't possibly know/ why do you constantly do that Matt? Said act is quite short, easy to read. CONTRA: is the Pentagon Papers Case. Why don't you respond to the relevant authority given that the PP greatly limits the otherwise clear and mandatory language of the act..............you do love to cherry pick, mischaracterize, and make up your facts.

You should be a journalist too.......(sic)
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:11 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatis wrote:Said act is quite short, easy to read.
No it isn't. Have you read it? :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:18 am

Its one page long........9 sections. What are you smoking?

Also re Palven.......he comes across quite studied in the link you gave. He took some course work in economics and did some reading on his own. Why do you mischaracterize everything and make up your own supposition in the shortfall........AND HARDLY EVER ANSWER DIRECT QUESTIONS YOURSELF.

Pentagon Papers Matt. Deal with them. Deal with reality.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:54 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Its one page long........9 sections. What are you smoking?

1) You still have not read it have you?
2) How many Supreme Court Cases have I already posted that are required to interpret the legislation? Did you forget again.
:lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Also re Palven.......he comes across quite studied in the link you gave. He took some course work in economics
You really are an idiot. Tom Palven never studied any economic courses. He claimed he was required to read Adam Smiths "Wealth of Nations" where Adam Smith defines the "invisible hand" in economics yet Tom Palven hasn't got a clue what the invisible hand is and claims Adam Smith was not an economist. Tom Palven was studying to be a forest ranger at a college in Cornell. He posted his CV on a Libertarian website.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:07 am

Sorry Matt: your stupid hole has gotten so deep, it has collapsed on you. Your continuing non responsive repetition is BORING. ..............but........ as it does have a comical aspect to it, I'll give it one last go:

1. I read the Espionage Act some 45 years ago as part of the Pentagon Papers release of information and the lawsuit that followed trying to put Ellsberg in Jail for violating it. I had no direct memory of it....just filed away as a typical Federal State protecting/anti-Freedom legislation. I did look it up when this discussion started about a week ago.

Let me spoon feed you pablum: http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_t ... &psid=3904 I would copy and paste the ONE PAGE document in full but that is against forum guidelines so the link should suffice. How can YOU claim knowledge of the ACT and challenge anyone who posts it is one page long and 9 sections?? You really do just keep digging....for no benefit at all. People don't confuse your empty boastful activity with being responsive..........nor in this case truthful. //// As one is forced to when dealing with you, being nonresponsive to a point made must be taken as from you as an admission. In fact, the best evidence so far is that YOU have not read the legislation and more importantly as so often stated in this thread: the Pentagon Papers case that severely limited its application. In the fascists way you present the issue, Ellsberg was more a traitor than Assange and the PPC dismissed the charges against him in favor of: FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE SPEECH, and the right of the Press to Publish. Theres your due process laid bare: it restricts the gubments free use of in terrorum application of the discretionary aspects of the law.

2. I haven't forgotten anything....IIRC. Ha, ha. Your memory also appears quite solid as well: NOT TO ANSWER ANY DIRECT QUESTIONS and not to read the PPC case, more narrowly and relevant: New York Times Co. v. United States found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_ ... ted_States which in controlling part holds: "The ruling made it possible for The New York Times and The Washington Post newspapers to publish the then-classified Pentagon Papers without risk of government censorship or punishment."

3. What info do you have on Palven other than the link you provided? I take his post at face value true absent evidence to the contrary. Your ravings don't amount to evidence at all........just Matt being Matt. More importantly, it doesn't matter what Palven did or didn't study, take course work in, read or not read, what school he went to or did not go to. What matters is what he posted: the words and ideas of what he posted. Your ab hominen distractions only show you have no argument agains what he posted, but you want to argue anyway. Weird actually. Why not enjoy what Palven posted and quibble, blather, and dither as that mood may strike you?

As the Father of Modern Economics, I would agree he was not an economist. the Profession/designation had not been recognized/coined when Adam Smith wrote his books. Even if you disagree Matt........the characterization is totally reasonable. You, are not.

Do you have anything of substance Matt?..........or are you baseless mischaracterization all the way down???
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:51 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Sorry Matt: your stupid hole has gotten so deep, it has collapsed on you.
No. I'm laughing at you.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: . I read the Espionage Act some 45 years ago
So tell me then how you claim Assange is not indictable under the act? Set out your claim in legal terms. You can't can you?
You are as stupid as Tom Palven.
:lol: :lol:

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: What info do you have on Palven other than the link you provided?
Tom Palven stood as a candidate for the Libertarian party in the 1980's. The only Libertarian party members in government, at the moment, in any country are two blokes in Russia. I have his Libertarian pages and newspaper interviews. Tom Palven was a gardening horticulturist fore Monmouth County. He also served two year in the USA Navy reserves ( as he loves peace and is anti-war) . Apparently, as he claims, I am three "ASIS or Mossad officers paid to troll him, " that was easy for me to find. :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: As the Father of Modern Economics, I would agree he was not an economist.
That's because you are also an idiot like Tom Palven. Do you know what Adam Smith's "invisible hand" means ( Hint : It is an equilibrium equation concerning competing firms) By some magic Tom Palven claims to have studied Adam Smith at his economics courses, yet doesn't know what the "invisible hand" is. :lol: :lol:

Are you and Tom Palven having a competition to see who is more stupid?

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:00 am

Do you have anything of substance Matt?..........or are you baseless mischaracterization all the way down???
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:06 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Do you have anything of substance Matt?..........or are you baseless mischaracterization all the way down???
So you can't answer any of my questions. I didn't think so........ :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:13 am

Do you have anything of substance Matt?..........or are you baseless mischaracterization all the way down???

I answered all your questions immediately proceeding and provided links that formed the basis for questions posed to you. You ignore all that and post new/repeated questions as if asked none of you. You don't hold a discussion....just a one way hebephrenic ab hominem snipe hunt.

We all see it Matt. Why don't you wise up and present your better self??
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:40 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I answered all your questions immediately proceeding and provided links that formed the basis for questions posed to you.
No. I asked you if you had read the Espionage act and you said you did years ago. Yet you were unable to say why you claim Assange cannot be indicted under the Act. That's because you never read the Espionage Act (1917)

Try again Bobbo. Tell me why you claim Assange cannot be indicted under the act?
:lol: :lol: :lol: