Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? // Now in Finland

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Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? // Now in Finland

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:46 pm

Nice transcript with links to related subjects.

The biggest complaint I hear re UBI is that "It can't work because people won't work." This article says its not true. but true or not...what are we, what is SOCIETY, going to do with HUGE structural unemployment given the oncoming disruption of computers and robots?

Yes....I think it all comes back to the Puritan Notion of work being necessary to a moral life. Ha, ha.........RELIGION. With all its various forms and impacts.......its going to get us all.

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/mincome/
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:11 pm

People have been predicting for decades that computers and robots will put everyone out of work, and they haven't even put out of work the people predicting that computers and robots will put everyone out of work.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:19 pm

"Putting everyone out of work...." //// Of course, that will never happen.

that much lack of flexibility?

For shame.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:12 pm

Yes, it would work because we are more or less doing it already, just with way too much bureaucracy.
The problem is how to do it without just raising inflation.

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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by Paul Anthony » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:58 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Yes, it would work because we are more or less doing it already, just with way too much bureaucracy.
The problem is how to do it without just raising inflation.
I'm no fan of bureaucracies or taxes, but food stamps make more sense to me than just giving people cash.

I'm also a fan of the right to make personal decisions, but there is a concern for the well-being of children with irresponsible parents. Food stamps ensure there is some food in the house (although no guarantee the kiddies get any of it) while cash might go for drugs and booze.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:47 am

Paul: you didn't read the link.

.........but you are right to save yourself time as why let a new idea that challenges what you have thought your whole life?

Your logic is: people who take cash rather than food stamps are irresponsible. Anything after that you have to assume. Assume in the face of expert opinion from the link. but as you've said before: they're experts, what do they know????

BWHAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Talk about knee jerk stoopidity.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by Fab Yolis » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:44 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Yes, it would work because we are more or less doing it already, just with way too much bureaucracy.
You must have an interesting definition of "work".
The problem is how to do it without just raising inflation.
Hmm, perhaps you could fund it by increasing taxes on people who actually earn an income, thereby destroying their buying power relative to all the free-riding layabouts. That should "work", at least in the short term...
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:39 pm

woo==how much work as you define it is necessary to provide all the physical good needed by society, then all the pesonal services. Why do you assume there will always be such work available? What do you suggest when there isn't?

Note: UBI does not require anyone to stop working and it does not interfere with anyone who wants to so engage.

Really---its the very FREEDOM that anarchists argue for but don't know how to structure.

..............or do you think its not fair for society to benefit generally from the work of robots and computers?
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:43 pm

More money => more consumerism => world going to hell in a handbasket just that much faster. We should be conducting genocides on a global scale just to reduce the population.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:52 pm

Genocide is a good example. Another work that will be taken over by robots. Seems like it is foreordained the future will be bleak. Can we all blame Darwin?
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:15 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Genocide is a good example. Another work that will be taken over by robots. Seems like it is foreordained the future will be bleak. Can we all blame Darwin?
We can't blame Darwin for anything.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:09 pm

I do all the time. He removed God from the equation who was the ready stooge for 2000 years. I mean...we can't take personal responsibility....not when there is a ready scapegoat.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:11 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: We can't blame Darwin for anything.

Don't oppress me

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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:37 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I do all the time. He removed God from the equation who was the ready stooge for 2000 years. I mean...we can't take personal responsibility....not when there is a ready scapegoat.
Okay, so we'll start blaming you instead.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:44 pm

Well.... THAT won't work. Unlike God and Darwin...I exist and am Alive. See the Glitch?
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:47 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well.... THAT won't work. Unlike God and Darwin...I exist and am Alive. See the Glitch?
Unlike God, who doesn't exist, and Darwin, who no longer exists, you're accessible.

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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by Paul Anthony » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:50 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:

Note: UBI does not require anyone to stop working and it does not interfere with anyone who wants to so engage.
Well, that's a relief. Responsible people will still be able to better themselves. Of course, those who don't will complain about income inequality (just like they do now) and demand that the minimum wage...er...I mean UBI...be raised.

Since someone raised the issue of minimum wages (OK, it was me), how will UBI be calculated? Will it be per person or per household or ??? Because right now, people demand a "living wage" without considering how much that would have to be for a single person, or a couple, or a single Mom with 2 kids, or a family of 5...
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:24 pm

Gee Paul..... once again: read the link.

After that....examine your own "values." Why are they so tied to Puritanical RELIGIOUS tenets regarding the so called work ethic?

It really is something to think about. Do we all become "worthless" when robots provide all the labor, and computers 99% of the thinking, required by society? And if so, how does that define worth?
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by Martin Brock » Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:19 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:After that....examine your own "values." Why are they so tied to Puritanical RELIGIOUS tenets regarding the so called work ethic?
I associate consumption with production. Ethics have nothing to do with it. Machines make people more productive, but we're very far from a utopian (or dystopian) future in which machines can do anything men can do better and replace men in every productive process.

As long as some people must work to produce what I consume, I expect also to produce in exchange for their products; otherwise, I'm entitled to consume their produce without an agreeable exchange, like the master of a slave. I don't want to be enslaved to able people. If you're unable to produce in exchange for your consumption, entitling you to support is defensible, but few people are so disabled in reality.

I defend an employment guarantee instead.

A basic employment guarantee, with a decentralized duty to employ, is far superior to an income guarantee. Unemployment (for the able) is entirely a matter of social disintegration. The only possible solution to unemployment is social reintegration, and an income guarantee has the opposite effect. An employment guarantee could exist in the U.S. as follows.

Every adult has an individual BEA (Basic Employment Assurance) account through which s/he monthly reports all income up to a threshold. All reported income is exempt from income taxes. This exemption replaces personal exemptions and standard deductions in the existing income tax.

Above the threshold, persons contribute a portion of income to a common BEA fund. Contributors receive an income tax credit.

A person with income below the threshold in a given month may receive income from the fund in one of two ways. First, s/he may receive a payment directly from another person with income above the threshold. A person contributing to the fund may withdraw any part of the contribution to make these payments. Second, if a person receives insufficient income in first way way, s/he may borrow from the fund to reach the threshold. No one must borrow from the fund.

A contributor reports the recipient of a direct payment from the fund and also reports other payments to this recipient in a given year. After paying an individual the threshold income from the fund, a contributor must return a dollar to the fund for each additional dollar paid to the individual in a given year.

A person receiving more than the threshold income in a BEA account in a given month repays any loans from the common fund before contributing to the fund. Everyone's balance with the common fund is a matter of public record. While a person owes the fund, the income floor is effectively an income ceiling as well, but every few years, loans from the fund are forgiven. Periodically, funds remaining in the common fund are returned to the contributors in proportion to their contributions (contributions before direct payments).

All income received in a person's BEA account from the common fund is identified as such in the recipient's public record. Anyone may see this record at any time. The recipient knows the source of direct payments, and the source may comment on a payment, like "I paid Martin to mow my lawn, and I was very happy with the outcome," or "I asked Martin to mow my lawn, but though he seems able, he never showed up." A comment might explain a payment otherwise, like "Martin is my son," or "Martin is blind and attends my church." A comment may identify the source or not.

A person taking a loan from the fund also comments on the use of the loan, like "I'm buying a lawn mower" or "I have no other offers this month and need to pay my rent", and anyone contributing to the common fund may comment on the recipient's use of a loan as well, like "Martin volunteers many hours at our hospice each week" or "I'm Martin's brother, and he's always on the sofa with a beer in his hand watching ESPN."

The recipient of a loan must read (or listen to or watch) these comments, insofar as this requirement can be enforced automatically (without human monitoring). The common fund is administered through a web site or something similar.

Of course, in this system, the only penalty for continually taking loans and never repaying them, while drinking beer and watching ESPN all day, is public shaming, and some people would happily endure this shaming, but this problem has no obvious solution short of jailing the debtors, and jailing debtors is absurdly costly as well as inhumane.

The effect of this system on the affluent and fully employed is as important as its effect on the poor and under employed. Unemployment is entirely a matter of disintegration between these groups. By simply transferring money from one group to another, a basic income guarantee increases this disintegration rather than reintegrating the groups.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:30 pm

Nice in theory, but there are plenty of people incapable of making a product that a machine couldn't do better, faster and cheaper.
I don't want to have to buy something inferior because someone had to have a job.
It might sound weird, but in a market economy being a consumer is actually a kind of job: it's up to them to decide what products succeed and which fail.
For me, the reason for a UBI is not moral, it's entirely pragmatic:
We are wasting so much productivity administrating welfare, it would just be easier to just pay an above-poverty stipend to everyone.

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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:30 pm

M Brock: you are avoiding every stipulation already made in a discussion founded on what happens when there are not enough jobs. In many respects, that IS already the case for many people.

Way to demonstrate the persistence of old and irrelevant value systems.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:57 am

Computers and robots will put everyone out of work. Skynet and the Terminators are coming, and will kill us all. Then we will have 100% unemployment and no need for the UBI.

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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:41 pm

You are right to the degree that the more layered and intricate and removed from subsistence hunting and gathering hooman society gets...the more it is subject to catastrophic failure and collapse.

I still see NOTHING that doesn't say its Global Warming some 100 years from now that isn't going to do society in, if not the entire large animal fauna.

If I could have one wish fulfilled about knowing the future, I think that would be it: did we, if so how, avoid the consequences of co2 contamination?
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:49 pm

Bobbo the pessimist.

I am more optimistic. We can already see the first moves to curtail CO2 pollution. We now have new technologies to cope. Ownership of battery electric cars, for example is growing at 60% per year. Solar cells and wind farms are growing very quickly also. Biofuel research is big time.

But above and beyond all that, humans are resiliant enough to survive a warmer world. If you look ahead 100 years, I think it would be reasonable to predict much better and more efficient cooling systems for homes and offices and cars. Heat waves will not mean much. Sea level rise of 0.5 to 1 meter will force big cities to spend billions on sea walls and giant pumps, but that is do-able. There may even be benefits. For example, in a time some thousands of years ago when temperatures were quite high, rainfall on the Sahara was a lot higher, and it actually had forests.

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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:14 pm

Lance!!! You fail to grapple with the lag time of co2 concentrations and their effects. Its NOT the average sea level rise but the Perfect Storms of confluence that tops all barriers. Its not the temps alone but everything that comes with it. Elkhorn Coral for instance now on the endangered species list due to ocean temps...gone with another degree rise.

You simply miss the impact of global warming on the "SOCIETAL STRUCTURES/REQUIREMENTS" of mankind. Yes...all the solutions are on the shelf...but the lag time to effective implementation is decades behind.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:15 pm

Bobbo

I Am well aware of that. Which is why my recipe calls for both mitigation and adaptation.

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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:59 pm

Lance!!! You fail to grapple with the lag time of co2 concentrations and their effects. Its NOT the average sea level rise but the Perfect Storms of confluence that tops all barriers. Its not the temps alone but everything that comes with it. Elkhorn Coral for instance now on the endangered species list due to ocean temps...gone with another degree rise.

You simply miss the impact of global warming on the "SOCIETAL STRUCTURES/REQUIREMENTS" of mankind. Yes...all the solutions are on the shelf...but the lag time to effective implementation is decades behind.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? // Now in Finland

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:16 pm

Thousands to Receive Basic Income in Finland (and Elsewhere)

Just the start...but so many reasons "for" it.... with eventually not much of any other option. Biggest obstacle...as seen above...is the culture of thinking one (in a society) has to "work" to be of worth. Amusing, all around.

WHAT YOU GONNA DO: when there are NO traditional jobs?

http://futurism.com/thousands-to-receiv ... n-finland/
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? // Now in Finland

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:41 pm

My brother-in-law could return to being a very poor artist.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? // Now in Finland

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:46 pm

Exactly.... and others will follow their own true course. ...... and hopefully, many if not most if not all of those predisposed to drug it out in front of TV or the refer will not have direct motivation to do petty crime? That would be my hope. All sorts of ways it could go.... one main benefit.... removing the block of having poor but intact families...serial or otherwise. Yes, lots of benefits..... and in the end.... no real functional alternative.

The future is so subsidized....I can then do what I do now.... with more $. I pity the Third World.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? // Now in Finland

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:53 pm

I'll go Morlock, Eloi sounds boring.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? // Now in Finland

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:56 pm

Other than the culling, surely the above ground life of the Eloi, with Yvette Mimieux to play with, is more superior??

Don't forget your ear plugs. first movie still stands up...so does the Second...and the third too, depending on what you include.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? // Now in Finland

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:12 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Other than the culling, surely the above ground life of the Eloi, with Yvette Mimieux to play with, is more superior??
Never, it's lotus land, and I could never do that.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? // Now in Finland

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:48 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Never, it's lotus land, and I could never do that.
What happened to you............. exactly?
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? // Now in Finland

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:45 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Never, it's lotus land, and I could never do that.
What happened to you............. exactly?
Option 1: The universe pissed in my Post Toasties.

Option 2: I could never vegetate, and will never.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

Post by Fab Yolis » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:41 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:woo==how much work as you define it is necessary to provide all the physical good needed by society, then all the pesonal services. Why do you assume there will always be such work available? What do you suggest when there isn't?
Even if these questions were at all answerable, they are beside the point. The point is that rewarding the unproductive by punishing the productive is a recipe for economic ruin, irrespective of the state of technology. Reducing the production costs of goods and services to a negligible level is not the same as giving people something for nothing.
Note: UBI does not require anyone to stop working and it does not interfere with anyone who wants to so engage.
I never claimed it required people to stop working, I'm saying that it creates a disincentive to work.
Really---its the very FREEDOM that anarchists argue for but don't know how to structure.
Getting paid to do squat by Big Daddy Government is most definitely NOT the "freedom" that anarchists seek!
..............or do you think its not fair for society to benefit generally from the work of robots and computers?
This blatantly leading question has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? // Now in Finland

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:11 am

Silly Hooman.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? // Now in Finland

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:21 am

Kwan

It is not a case of punishing the productive or rewarding the unproductive. The situation appears to be coming where most people will not work, simply because there will not be work available for them. Look at accountants. They have had their basic 'bean counter' work eliminated, able to be done by clerks with computers and a suitable program. They are now running around like headless chickens trying to repromote themselves as business advisors or something similar, whether people need such services or not. And that is today. Give it another couple decades and the clerks will not be needed either, since the computers will do all the work.

THe tired old, obsolete boolshit from right wing groups about people being given money when they should be working is rapidly becoming even more like total crap. Within decades, the percentage of people able to work will drop. What will you say when robots and computers do almost everything, and only 1% of people with special skills will have jobs?

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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? // Now in Finland

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:29 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Kwan

It is not a case of punishing the productive or rewarding the unproductive. The situation appears to be coming where most people will not work, simply because there will not be work available for them. Look at accountants. They have had their basic 'bean counter' work eliminated, able to be done by clerks with computers and a suitable program. They are now running around like headless chickens trying to repromote themselves as business advisors or something similar, whether people need such services or not. And that is today. Give it another couple decades and the clerks will not be needed either, since the computers will do all the work.

THe tired old, obsolete boolshit from right wing groups about people being given money when they should be working is rapidly becoming even more like total crap. Within decades, the percentage of people able to work will drop. What will you say when robots and computers do almost everything, and only 1% of people with special skills will have jobs?
Are you familiar with the Luddites?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

This is similar to what Oleg said in the second post in this thread.
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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? // Now in Finland

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:10 am

Tom

We are entering a new phase here. In the past, new technology has replaced human muscles. This time, it is both muscles and brain being replaced. See the difference?

Luddites thought that mechanical machines would put themall out of work (they were partly right). This time, we have computers and computer programs capable of replacing even professionals. It is not going to happen overnight. I suggest 30 years. But it will happen. There is very little that cannot be replaced by a sufficiently sophisticated robot/computer program. Twenty years ago, no one would have thought an accountant could be replaced by a computer program, but it has happened. Soon, it will be lawyers. Even music composers have seen computers doing their work.

I do not know what human work activities will survive. Some will, no doubt, but it will not be the majority.
Last edited by Lance Kennedy on Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.