Understanding Freedom

Fun with supply and demand.
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landrew
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by landrew » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:57 pm

:roll: Left-wingers want to spend other peoples' money.
:roll: Right-wingers want to keep it.
:roll: Totalitarians want to micromanage everything.
:roll: Libertarians think that things manage themselves.
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Goody67 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:44 am

Wordbird wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:48 pm
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:26 pm
I’ll remind you of what Margaret Thatcher famously said, “Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.”
Libertarians cry freedom and raise the clenched fist. We all know what they really mean - power over people, power to private businesses.

I'm not going to have an unmoderated debate with someone who I gave the references to and who immediately shat on and ignored them. Pick any other poster. I will give him the reference (again) if he asks for it. You accused me of lying and making {!#%@} up when I said libertarians believe "give me a bj or you're fired" should be legal. I gave you references. I will provide them again with an unbiased referee. I won't keep providing them to someone who isn't debating honestly.
Stop posting like a charlatan. You claim to have studied libertarianism extensively yet you’re continuing to repeat a false claim about the ideology. And, what kind of idiot would say that libertarians are worse than the Nazis? Jeez.

Serious question: do you have reading comprehension problems?

The reason I have asked you that question is because your own sources don’t provide any evidence to support your claim and on the contrary actually contradict your claim.

You have a problem with an ideology you know very little about and have continued to dodge the question of declaring your own political beliefs - although it’s quite easy to guess which way you identify, I just want to know how extreme that is all.

So far you have provided no quote from the sources you have used to support your claim which you appear to have an unhealthy obsession with because you keep mentioning it explicitly when people can read what is being discussed.

You claiming you’re unwilling to have an “unmoderated debate” with me is a cop-out. All you have done is posted is false attribution and don’t like the fact I have exposed your lie.

Has it never occurred to you why people on this forum who also don’t like libertarianism have not jumped to your defence? Because they know what you’re claiming is a lie. So do yourself a favour and either admit you are wrong or actually provide evidence. The burden of proof is on you.

You’re still not comprehending the difference between jobs with agreements or contracts which do include sexual favours as part of the jobs and jobs with or without agreements or contracts which do include sexual favours as part of the jobs. Why are you finding that very basic distinction so difficult to understand? That is why no one who dislikes libertarianism is trying to defend your statement because you’re trying to apply to all jobs when in fact that is simply not the case and the sources you referenced make that distinction too (see above - I directly quoted from the sources you provided).

You should start being more honest instead of relying on fallacies, so far you have used the following fallacies: wishful thinking, false attribution and non-sequitur.
Last edited by Goody67 on Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Wordbird » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:58 am

I have provided evidence. I will provide it again if anyone but you asks.

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Goody67 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:11 am

Wordbird wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:58 am
I have provided evidence. I will provide it again if anyone but you asks.
The evidence you provided does not support your claim.

Why you can’t see that is beyond me.

Do you even read the sources you use???

From your own source:
Similarly, it’s obviously wrong in most cases to tell an employee that she must preform sexual favors in order to keep her job, but maybe not for an employee whose job already includes other kinds of sex work. The point is that where contracts are incomplete, there is usually an implicit or explicit understanding about the nature of a job, which either does or does not include sex or overtime.
https://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2 ... er-rights/

How many times do you need to read that paragraph before you finally start to understand the distinction? :roll:

Now quote from the same source (the source you used to support your false claim) the relevant text which you think supports your argument.

The reason you’re now refusing to do that very basic thing (the burden of proof is on you) is because I’ve exposed your false claim and you don’t have the balls to admit you are in the wrong because you loathe the ideology you know nothing about so you make up a lie about it.

Pathetic.
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.” - Robert Pirsig

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Goody67 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:20 am

A few days ago when I exposed your lie, you responded:
Did you? You found the word wrong and glossed over the rest. I'm not fooled by your libertarian BS. Yes, "give me a blowjob or get fired" is wrong, libertarians will say, but it shouldn't be illegal. Here's from the part you quoted.
Absent any contracts or agreements, if an employee is surprised to find that her job requires things she did not anticipate, then of course she should be free to leave the job.
https://skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 68#p722490

You deliberately took the one paragraph out of context to try and support your argument, but failed. One can quite easily read it in full context:
Similarly, it’s obviously wrong in most cases to tell an employee that she must preform sexual favors in order to keep her job, but maybe not for an employee whose job already includes other kinds of sex work. The point is that where contracts are incomplete, there is usually an implicit or explicit understanding about the nature of a job, which either does or does not include sex or overtime.

As I argued before, violating these implicit understandings is wrong because it is deceptive to lead someone to believe that a job requires one thing and then to demand another. This deception can be particularly harmful when an employee wouldn’t have taken the job if she knew what she’d be asked to do. This is why the nature of the work should be specified in contracts as much as possible. Absent any contracts or agreements, if an employee is surprised to find that her job requires things she did not anticipate, then of course she should be free to leave the job.

So far, we all agree then that sexual harassment is wrong. Does the wrongness of this behavior mean that we should abandon at-will employment? Here is where we part ways. Bertram says that this issue is ‘emblematic’ of what’s wrong with BHL. I think it’s emblematic of what’s wrong with non-BHL liberals. Why is their immediate impulse to limit an employer’s options? Why is it so important that employees have the freedom to exit an employment relationship, but liberals like Bertram and Corey Robin don’t seem to worry at all about the employer’s freedom? Why not spend some time thinking of solutions that are compatible with liberty, instead of assuming that employers’ rights don’t matter?
Absolutely nothing in any of that text supports your claim that libertarians believe that if someone doesn’t want to do sexual favours then he or she will lose their job. You’re either not comprehending the very obvious distinction between jobs which include sexual favours and jobs which do not include sexual favours as well jobs with agreements or contracts and jobs without agreements or contracts or you are just deliberately lying to try and reason why you hate the ideology, which one is it?

The fact you have described me as a libertarian (which I am not) and “defending libertarian BS” because I have exposed you lying about the ideology and you dodging my question t state your political beliefs tells me everything I need to know about you and how you ‘debate’ with people.

Quite frankly, you are embarrassing yourself.
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.” - Robert Pirsig

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Tommy Palven » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:46 am

Are you actually Bob Dylan, Goody?

So far, the only celebrity I know of who posts here is Ron Jeremy.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Goody67 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:03 am

Tommy Palven wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:46 am
Are you actually Bob Dylan, Goody?

So far, the only celebrity I know of who posts here is Ron Jeremy.
What do you think? :lol: I once had two fish called Bob and Dylan. :lol:

For what it’s worth, Bob Dylan is one of my favourite singer-songwriters.
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.” - Robert Pirsig

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Wordbird » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:11 pm

Again, I already provided all the evidence. The quote you provided supports my position, not yours. I will provide it all again if anyone wishes to step in and play referee. I won't have an unmoderated debate with someone dishonest.

There are plenty of rational people on this forum who will be honest.

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Goody67 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:49 am

Wordbird wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:11 pm
Again, I already provided all the evidence. The quote you provided supports my position, not yours. I will provide it all again if anyone wishes to step in and play referee. I won't have an unmoderated debate with someone dishonest.

There are plenty of rational people on this forum who will be honest.
You have provided no evidence to support your claim! You either have reading comprehension problems or you have not even bothered to read the sources you cited fully - if you had then you would know that they contradict your claim and you wouldn’t keep believing in such an absurd lie.

Your last sentence makes no sense. Is someone dishonest because he or she doesn’t believe your lie? If it were true, why has not a single person on this forum who dislikes libertarianism came to your defence? Because they all know you’re posting claptrap.

So, instead of just posting the same claptrap post after post either admit you made a false claim or just continue to embarrass yourself even further. Which choice is it going to be?

You’ve already shown that you’re impossible to debate with because anyone who points out your errors is labelled as a libertarian and someone who defends “libertarianism BS”.

EDIT: I had a quick look through Woodbird’s post history and found that he has admitted to having mental disorders, especially Narcissistic personality disorder.

https://skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 90#p713990

A narcissist telling me that I am dishonest? One couldn’t make this BS up.

I do wonder what other mental disorders you have because one thing that is for certain is that you’re not the full shilling.

Do not waste my time anymore with your BS. Enjoy living in your fantasy land.
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.” - Robert Pirsig

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Tommy Palven » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:48 am

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:03 am
For what it’s worth, Bob Dylan is one of my favourite singer-songwriters.
Mine, too.

A couple of my favorites are Positively Fourth Street and The Times, They are A-Changing.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Goody67 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:19 am

Tommy Palven wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:48 am
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:03 am
For what it’s worth, Bob Dylan is one of my favourite singer-songwriters.
Mine, too.

A couple of my favorites are Positively Fourth Street and The Times, They are A-Changing.
I don’t think he’s got a great voice, although his voice is very unique. But, he has written some excellent songs and I think his voice goes well with his songs, if that makes sense.

A few songs that I like:

Lay Lady Lay
Every Grain of Sand
Make You Feel My Love
All I Really Want to Do
Just Like A Woman
It Ain’t Me Babe
I Want You
Rainy Day Women ♯12 & 35
It's All Over Now, Baby Blue
Last edited by Goody67 on Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.” - Robert Pirsig

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landrew
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by landrew » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:13 am

That avatar reminds me more of Jean Ralphio for some reason.
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Wordbird » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:52 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:49 am
A narcissist telling me that I am dishonest? One couldn’t make this BS up.
A dishonest narcissist won't tell you they're a narcissist.

But see how you make it about me instead of the argument? A typical libertarian tactic. Jeer constantly. Push everyone to the defensive. It's like you go to school to be politicians.

You're worse than Nazis and you know it. If you looked through my post history, and the worst thing you could find is me admitting I'm a narcissist, that shows you something.

I don't need to look through your post history to discredit an ideology that believes "give me a bj or be fired" should be legal.

I called you dishonest because you asked for specific things to back up that assertion, I gave them to you, and you pretended I didn't.

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:22 pm

I was going to give the current kerfuffle a review, but .............its about "labels." I'll pass.

Go to discrete issues. Even you two might find some progress. eg: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers? /// I assume the Libertards would say "no" while the charlatans view is totally unknown to me. HEY: heres a thought BASED ON there are Pros and Cons to every position? So Goody: what is the Pro you would admit to if the Feds did provide all babies with free diapers?

Go=========================>
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:59 am

Personally, I am a great believer in balance. When you accept this, you realise that all extreme views are wrong. Do I believe in free speech ? Sure. I love the fact that I can freely insult politicians. Do I believe that free speech permits someone to deliver hate speech of such vindictiveness that it drives a victim to suicide ? Absolutely not.

The difficulty is always in finding a suitable balance point, where actions on one side are OK, and actions on the other are not. Everyone has a different view.

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Tommy Palven » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:17 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:59 am
Personally, I am a great believer in balance. When you accept this, you realise that all extreme views are wrong. Do I believe in free speech ? Sure. I love the fact that I can freely insult politicians. Do I believe that free speech permits someone to deliver hate speech of such vindictiveness that it drives a victim to suicide ? Absolutely not.

The difficulty is always in finding a suitable balance point, where actions on one side are OK, and actions on the other are not. Everyone has a different view.
Who should be the final arbiter as to what constitutes hate speech?

Is "Screw Birdturd" hate speech?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Goody67 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:30 pm

Wordbird wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:52 pm
Goody67 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:49 am
A narcissist telling me that I am dishonest? One couldn’t make this BS up.
A dishonest narcissist won't tell you they're a narcissist.

But see how you make it about me instead of the argument? A typical libertarian tactic. Jeer constantly. Push everyone to the defensive. It's like you go to school to be politicians.

You're worse than Nazis and you know it. If you looked through my post history, and the worst thing you could find is me admitting I'm a narcissist, that shows you something.
LOL! You cherry-picked a single sentence out of my rebuttal of your nonsense.

viewtopic.php?p=723610#p723382

Lying is one of the traits strongly associated with narcissists so don't try and fool me with your reverse psychology nonsense. It wasn't the "worst thing" I could find out about you, but it makes it clear why you're not admitting to beingin the wrong and continue to just repeat the same nonsense.

Maybe you should actually check back at the posts on this thread and see who started personally attacking whom first:

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=31668#p722490

Initially, it was I who responded to your arguments about the ideology and you quickly got on the defensive and started accusing me of being a libertarian and defending "libertarian BS".

You didn't like the fact I pointed out your lies so you resorted to, "I'm not fooled by your libertarian BS". :?

People can quite easily view my first post on this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=31668#p722204

I'm worse than the Nazis because I have exposed you lying about an ideology? :lol: :lol: :lol: When you post {!#%@} like that, it is obvious to anyone that you're just trolling or an incompetent moron who can't debate without personal attacks.

Who the hell do you think you are accusing me of being the Nazis because I've shown your argument to be flawed and a lie? :shock:
I don't need to look through your post history to discredit an ideology that believes "give me a bj or be fired" should be legal.
Except libertarianism doesn't think that should be legal. What is causing your incredulity? Your socialist, communist or Marxist views which you won't even admit to believing in or what?

I've noticed you're still ignoring/refusing the fact that libertarians make a distinction between jobs which do not include sexual favours with agreements/contracts and jobs which do include sexual favours and have no agreements/contracts. Why are you deliberately ignoring that? We all know why: because it shows the flaw in your argument about what libertarians believe.
I called you dishonest because you asked for specific things to back up that assertion, I gave them to you, and you pretended I didn't.
You didn't provide any sources which back up that claim and have now resorted to proof by assertion.

Anyway, I have sent a few private messages to people asking about you and the clear consensus is not to take anything you post seriously so on my ignore list you go. :D
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.” - Robert Pirsig

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Goody67 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:45 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:59 am
Personally, I am a great believer in balance. When you accept this, you realise that all extreme views are wrong. Do I believe in free speech ? Sure. I love the fact that I can freely insult politicians. Do I believe that free speech permits someone to deliver hate speech of such vindictiveness that it drives a victim to suicide ? Absolutely not.

The difficulty is always in finding a suitable balance point, where actions on one side are OK, and actions on the other are not. Everyone has a different view.
The debate over whether freedom of speech should be absolute has been an ongoing debate for a long time.

I'm interested if you can tell me what you think about the following quotes regarding freedom of speech and balance:
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
George Orwell, Animal Farm
If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

However, what Mill did argue was:
…the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.
The desire for "freedom of will" in the superlative, metaphysical sense, such as still holds sway, unfortunately, in the minds of the half-educated, the desire to bear the entire and ultimate responsibility for one's actions oneself, and to absolve God, the world, ancestors, chance, and society therefrom, involves nothing less than to be precisely this causa sui, and, with more than Munchausen daring, to pull oneself up into existence by the hair, out of the slough of nothingness.
Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
The communists and the Nazis are merely two variants of the same evil notion: collectivism. But both should be free to speak—evil ideas are dangerous only by default of men advocating better ideas.
Ayn Rand, The Objective Calendar
My own opinion is enough for me, and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time. And anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line, and kiss my ass.
Christopher Hitchens
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.” - Robert Pirsig

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Goody67 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:47 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:19 am
Tommy Palven wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:48 am
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:03 am
For what it’s worth, Bob Dylan is one of my favourite singer-songwriters.
Mine, too.

A couple of my favorites are Positively Fourth Street and The Times, They are A-Changing.
I don’t think he’s got a great voice, although his voice is very unique. But, he has written some excellent songs and I think his voice goes well with his songs, if that makes sense.

A few songs that I like:

Lay Lady Lay
Every Grain of Sand
Make You Feel My Love
All I Really Want to Do
Just Like A Woman
It Ain’t Me Babe
I Want You
Rainy Day Women ♯12 & 35
It's All Over Now, Baby Blue
You got me listening to Bob Dylan last night, I can't believe that I forgot to mention:

I Threw It All Away
Like a Rolling Stone
This Wheel's On Fire

:) :) :)
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.” - Robert Pirsig

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:30 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:45 pm
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:59 am
Personally, I am a great believer in balance. When you accept this, you realise that all extreme views are wrong. Do I believe in free speech ? Sure. I love the fact that I can freely insult politicians. Do I believe that free speech permits someone to deliver hate speech of such vindictiveness that it drives a victim to suicide ? Absolutely not.

The difficulty is always in finding a suitable balance point, where actions on one side are OK, and actions on the other are not. Everyone has a different view.
The debate over whether freedom of speech should be absolute has been an ongoing debate for a long time.
Heh, heh: all depends on what is meant by "a debate." THERE IS NO DEBATE: that there is not a single example of absolute free speech anywhere at any time. Three Waldo's in a basement game room? Sure. Any larger actual society of laws? NO. THERE IS NO DEBATE. This is not to be confused with what most libtards and other advocates of irresponsible interest raise which is a "debate point."

The hinge as Lance so correctly pointed out is when speech moves from IDEAS to advocacy of ACTION. In fact, USA courts call such calls to action as not being protected speech, speech that is subject to protection because in essence it is not "speech" but rather "a call to illegal activity."

The distinction is lost to anyone who argues for absolute rights to have air move over your vocal cords.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:45 pm
I'm interested if you can tell me what you think about the following quotes regarding freedom of speech and balance:
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
George Orwell, Animal Farm (/quote)
I agree with the distinction always in mind that its telling people IDEAS they don't want to hear.

Goody67 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:45 pm
(quote) If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty [/quote]Obviously
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:45 pm
However, what Mill did argue was:
…the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.
Yes, thats what Lance said on which I also agree.........and so does the US Supreme Court.....and so do all societies larger than a basement.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:45 pm
The desire for "freedom of will" in the superlative, metaphysical sense, such as still holds sway, unfortunately, in the minds of the half-educated, the desire to bear the entire and ultimate responsibility for one's actions oneself, and to absolve God, the world, ancestors, chance, and society therefrom, involves nothing less than to be precisely this causa sui, and, with more than Munchausen daring, to pull oneself up into existence by the hair, out of the slough of nothingness.
Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
[/quote] Ha, ha.........betcha you got lost in all those words. "As an existentialist"....I'm familiar with the concepts invoked. NOT free speech. Try again.

Goody67 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:45 pm
The communists and the Nazis are merely two variants of the same evil notion: collectivism. But both should be free to speak—evil ideas are dangerous only by default of men advocating better ideas.
Ayn Rand, The Objective Calendar
[/quote] Support the discussion of the IDEAS regarding various forms/justification/results of collectivism. Against the speech on how to force collectivism on those who don't want to leave their basement abodes.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:45 pm
My own opinion is enough for me, and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time. And anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line, and kiss my ass.
Christopher Hitchens
[/quote] A bit puerile in formulation totally appropriate for any free speech pimp, but firmly grounded and protected by Free Speech.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
So..............what about the diapers? ((Apologies for not getting the quote system working. I tried long enough.))
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Tommy Palven » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:44 pm

“I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to make an ass of yourself.”
― Oscar Wilde
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:01 pm

Who's more gay? Oscar Wilde or the guy who changed his quote for that particular emphassis?
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:07 pm

Bobbo is on the ball.
The key to limiting freedom of speech is limiting harm to people. Take the hate speech on social media that drives teenagers to suicide. There is enough in the way of examples by now to judge very accurately what can cause severe harm. A restriction on the most harmful hate speech is entirely appropriate. I know that in the USA, people are so hung up on freedom of speech that such regulations are not made lightly. Here in NZ we already have laws against hate speech, and personally, I like it that way. Freedom of speech is a privilege not to be abused.

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Tommy Palven » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:16 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:01 pm
Who's more gay? Oscar Wilde or the guy who changed his quote for that particular emphassis?
Nobody changed Wilde's quote, and what does gay have to do with free speech?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:00 am

Don't bother me Tommy.............I'm on the Ball, and there is only room for one. Denial of Free Speech "used to" censor people even admitting they were gay. You know: evil truth that would lead people asstray.
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Tommy Palven » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:35 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:00 am
Don't bother me Tommy.............I'm on the Ball, and there is only room for one. Denial of Free Speech "used to" censor people even admitting they were gay. You know: evil truth that would lead people asstray.
I don't understand your point.

Are you blaming me for the fact that you were wrong about the Oscar Wilde quote?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:29 am

Gee Tommy. I won't look it up but did Oscar really say "..... your right to make an ass of yourself?" ///// I don't think so.............but.............lets do the google: Well.......shut my mouth. THANK YOU. Turns out.......I think I have always heard some abridged version of his quote. Very Instructive.

The "gay" part was my own addition as I do think gay whenever I see/hear the word ass.........and Oscar was associated with that life style. Ass Play: not for me, but Word Play: yes. Hmmmm....circles too close together? Taint going there.

Again....thanks for challenging me. I do know it takes time and patience.
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Goody67 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:14 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:07 pm
Bobbo is on the ball.
The key to limiting freedom of speech is limiting harm to people. Take the hate speech on social media that drives teenagers to suicide. There is enough in the way of examples by now to judge very accurately what can cause severe harm. A restriction on the most harmful hate speech is entirely appropriate. I know that in the USA, people are so hung up on freedom of speech that such regulations are not made lightly. Here in NZ we already have laws against hate speech, and personally, I like it that way. Freedom of speech is a privilege not to be abused.
The problem is that what "drives" teenagers (or anyone for that matter) to suicide is subjective. Where does one draw the line exactly? How can we be entirely sure it was the speech that drove the person to suicide?

Who defines "hate speech"? Again, it is entirely subjective.

A quote often attributed to Voltaire himself, but was written by Evelyn Beatrice Hall in "The Friends of Voltairte" as a way to illustrate Voltiare's views:
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
One can't be an advocate of freedom of speech if he or she at the same time is claiming that "hate speech" should be forbidden.
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.” - Robert Pirsig

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:18 pm

Basement dweller.
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Tommy Palven » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:04 pm

It seems pretty clear that one either believes in free speech or controlled speech.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by fromthehills » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:34 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:52 pm
ElectricMonk wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:13 pm
Libertarians just have no sense of complexity.
They're egocentric.
As a once self proclaimed libertarian, we do have a sense of complexity, but yes it’s egocentric. I do believe the term shifted over time, but I understand that the ideological fantasy of libertarianism, the notion that people will just do the right thing because it’s the right thing won’t come to fruition. I built my {!#%@} because I have good circumstances. Stupid of me to think everyone else can do it too.

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by fromthehills » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:39 pm

fromthehills wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:34 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:52 pm
ElectricMonk wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:13 pm
Libertarians just have no sense of complexity.
They're egocentric.
As a once self proclaimed libertarian, we do have a sense of complexity, but yes it’s egocentric. I do believe the term shifted over time, but I understand that the ideological fantasy of libertarianism, the notion that people will just do the right thing because it’s the right thing won’t come to fruition. I built my {!#%@} because I have good circumstances. Stupid of me to think everyone else can do it too.

Not just stupid, that’s not the right term. Entitled? Privileged? Oh, egocentric.

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Cadmusteeth » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:52 pm

The fact that laws had to be passed to help keep streets cleaned is a good example that not everyone will do what's best for everyone else. Sometimes you have to put restrictions on what you can and can't do so that many others can be better off.
(Just putting that out there.)

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by landrew » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:03 pm

It's like religions in a way; they each have their good points, but you have to take a lot of garbage along with it.
Some say the middle of the road is where you get run over, but I think the best balance is near the middle.
We tend to polarize ourselves into tribal battles rather than working together in a non-partisan way.
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by landrew » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:18 pm

The agrarian society that the founding fathers fondly spoke of was in a sense, a libertarian ideal. Farm folk tend to form strong inter-relationships of trust and shared resources when times were tough. They looked after each other and didn't tolerate dishonesty and cheating. They had their own ways of dealing with bad behavior.

But as the cities grew, the new model of dog-eat-dog displaced those folk. They either moved away or adapted to the new competitive mode of living. Each has its advantages, but neither is ideal in its extreme manifestation. Once again, the moderate mix of all philosophies seems to yield the highest quotient of benefit.
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:09 pm

Tommy Palven wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:04 pm
It seems pretty clear that one either believes in free speech or controlled speech.
No. The simple fact is NO ONE BELIEVES IN (absolute) FREE SPEECH: outside of 3 person basement dwellers. As proven by: it doesn't exist anywhere BECAUSE: IT DOESN'T WORK.

Now.........you can "argue for" something that doesn't exist and doesn't work. ie: be a complete idiot..............OR.......... you can deal with the complexities and nuances of the idea and how it interacts and should be dealt with across ALL OUR RIGHTS.

Contra: you can get too sophisticated and come up with crap like "Money is Speech." There are a few idiots in basements that think that too.

And note: every psyche has a basement. We should all know where ours is and what it looks like. Fully measured and appreciated: its still a basement.
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Tommy Palven » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:47 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:09 pm
Tommy Palven wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:04 pm
It seems pretty clear that one either believes in free speech or controlled speech.
No. The simple fact is NO ONE BELIEVES IN (absolute) FREE SPEECH: outside of 3 person basement dwellers. As proven by: it doesn't exist anywhere BECAUSE: IT DOESN'T WORK.

Now.........you can "argue for" something that doesn't exist and doesn't work. ie: be a complete idiot..............OR.......... you can deal with the complexities and nuances of the idea and how it interacts and should be dealt with across ALL OUR RIGHTS.

Contra: you can get too sophisticated and come up with crap like "Money is Speech." There are a few idiots in basements that think that too.

And note: every psyche has a basement. We should all know where ours is and what it looks like. Fully measured and appreciated: its still a basement.
So, you think that the content of speech in the public arena, (Not private homes , movie theatres, churches, or on other private property.) should be controlled by higher authorities?

Do you also believe, as do those neocons incarcerating Julian Assange, that the press should be controlled?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:08 pm

No Tommy: deal with reality.......because reality has much to teach us............you know: about reality.

All you and Goody are doing is repeating your belief statement. You make no analysis, no argument. Because there "is none" as REALITY demonstrates.

Lets try to form a dialectic progression to a conclusion rather than dog whistle repetition. Are you up to it?????

Q-1: Do you agree or disagree that there has NEVER BEEN a "society" where absolute free speech has been experienced/allowed/suffered/put up with?

q-2: Why do you THINK that is?

Q-3: Why don't you accept what REALITY teaches us?
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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by Tommy Palven » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:59 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:08 pm
No Tommy: deal with reality.......because reality has much to teach us............you know: about reality.

All you and Goody are doing is repeating your belief statement. You make no analysis, no argument. Because there "is none" as REALITY demonstrates.

Lets try to form a dialectic progression to a conclusion rather than dog whistle repetition. Are you up to it?????

Q-1: Do you agree or disagree that there has NEVER BEEN a "society" where absolute free speech has been experienced/allowed/suffered/put up with?

q-2: Why do you THINK that is?

Q-3: Why don't you accept what REALITY teaches us?
Okay.

How about freedom of the press.?

Are you in favor of that?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Understanding Freedom

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:08 pm

Answer the questions. aka: deal with the reality KNOCKING ON YOUR NOGGIN. Never answering direct questions is a reality denying mechanism.

Very consistent: but go for change and growth.
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