Civil Rights has it worked?

Methods and means of supporting critical thinking in education
User avatar
rrichar911
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4853
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:03 pm
Location: Texas, God's country USA

Civil Rights has it worked?

Post by rrichar911 » Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:57 am

Civil rights the brain child of Dwight Eisenhower, first written in its infant stages by his AG, in 1957, has it worked?

I live in Dallas Tx, which has a public school system composed of 95% minorities. I fail to see how anyone can call that intigration.

Before civil rights DISD was segragated along racial lines, but the sad fact is that today it still is.

Before civil rights, we had forced segragation, while after civil rights we tried forced intigration. The one thing which has not been tried is, you may attend the school of your choice, i.e. the one thing that has not been tied is freedom of choice.

The American way as I was taught it as a youth, was to use the arena of public debate, where eveyone was free to voice their opinion, to win hearts and minds and thus create a cultural environment to live in.

Denying blacks the right to sit at the lunch counter just because they were black, in my opinion is small minded and wrong headed. As Martin Luther King said, people should be judged on the content of their character, rather on the color of their skin.

Removing the cafe owners right to deny service to customers he does not want to serve is also wrong. Thus civil right choose between two wrongs. It said that denying blacks service because they are balck is more wrong than removing the cafe owners rights. So they removed his rights.

I cannot celebrate law which removes one persons rights, to insure that another person has rights. There has to be a better way to get where you want to go. Winning hearts and minds, apealing to peoples good nature, would have been perhaps not as slow as many think.

The American people by in large are good people. Present the arguments and they will listen if the argument make sence.

Besides that, forced intigration has not worked. DISD is 95% minority, and that is in no way intigrated.

There is a middle ground between, you can't go to this school , and you must go to this school, which is, you can go to what ever school you wish. Freedom was never tried. We went from one extreem to another, and both represent segragation.

I don't think that anyone can argue that Dallas, Detroit, etc have not suffered from the effects of forced intigration. If for no other reason (but there are many) is the fact that Dallas, Detroit, LA, DC, etc, just about every large town that exists in America today, have high crime rates, high drop out rates, and are not intigrated by any streatch of the immagination.

Comments?
What really intrest me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the universe ~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
rrichar911
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4853
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:03 pm
Location: Texas, God's country USA

Post by rrichar911 » Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:20 pm

People sold their house and moved out of large towns in droves during the 60's and 70's primarily for 4 reasons one the other or a combination there of, thus creating a school district that are ~95% minority.

Reason 1: They didn't want to put be forced to put their kid on a bus and ship them across town to school. (safety and time and fatigue considerations)

Reason 2: They resented so much government interference in their lives, and the removal of their choice. (freedom issues)

Reason 3: They didn't want their kid going to school with a black kid. (some of them were racist)

Reason 4: They didn't want their kid going to an inferior school. (education concerns)

All of those reasons and perhaps more created a situation today in which our schools are segregated.

Remove the forced bussing, i.e. get the gov out of the bidness of force.

Reason 1 & 2 & possably 3 are gone. Thus mass exudus out of large towns, has 3 less reasons to occure, and thus DISD would stand a 75% chance of not be as segragated. as 75% of the reasons it is segragated are gone.

remove 3/4ths of the reasons people left Dallas, and created the segregated school dist we have a today, and it seems obvious to me that the degree of segregation would be less.

If we removed government consent, and in some cases law mandating segregation, would not more integration have been the result?

My point is, that freedom of choice, was never even tried. Before we had the law mandating segregation, after we had the law mandating integration. There is a third option there. That third option was never given a chance.

In some small areas it was given a change, such as where do you want to sit on the bus. Choice worked, integration is the result.

In other areas choice was not given a change, and segregation is still the result. (public schools)

As long as were doing experiments, how about letting people have a choice, as an experiment. It might just work. How do we know, if we never try?

If we never even try freedom as a valid option, how then is it that we call our self the land of the free?
What really intrest me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the universe ~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
Beleth
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:54 pm
Location: yo mammas puddin

Post by Beleth » Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:46 pm

Laws don't change people's preferences, no matter how irrational or self-destructive those preferences may be. Pride in one's own culture necessarily leads to demonization of the cultures of others, even when the other culture lives just on the other side of tracks.

As long as anyone is proud of a group they belong to, there can be no true equality. The best we can hope for is to replace a large injustice with a smaller injustice.
"Beleth thinks with beauty."
-- brainfart

User avatar
Flea
Regular Poster
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:17 pm

Post by Flea » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:16 pm

rrichar911 wrote:My point is, that freedom of choice, was never even tried. Before we had the law mandating segregation, after we had the law mandating integration. There is a third option there. That third option was never given a chance.

In some small areas it was given a change, such as where do you want to sit on the bus. Choice worked, integration is the result.


Your argument gets a little scattered here. You cite the success of bus desegregation, but consider lunch-counter desegregation a removal of business owners' rights?

In that light, why not call bus desegregation a failure, since the right of white passengers to choose not to sit in the same section with blacks was taken away?

The school choice issue is a complicated one, and I'm not sure I have enough information to discuss it. But your definition of freedom seems to be based on the notion of anyone doing anything they want, regardless of the harm or limitations imposed on others.
Gravity is a harsh mistress.

User avatar
rrichar911
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4853
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:03 pm
Location: Texas, God's country USA

Post by rrichar911 » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:50 pm

Flea


Success or failure is defined here as whether or not integration became a reality. On the bus, integration was achieved, in the cafe it was achieved, in schools it was not achieved.

On the bus, there was no force used. There was no law which said blacks and whites had to sit together. There was only a law which said, blacks no longer have to sit in the back. This left people free to sit anywhere they choose. Integration was achieved.

In the cafe, Force was used, the law stated that blacks can enter and must be served. That also worked. We have integration. But no one forced customers to go to a cafe that they did not want to enter. People thus still had a choice.

In the schools force was used, and we don't have integration. People had no choice if they remained in a city in which they would be forced to integrate, so a large % moved.

In all areas in which the government did not completely remove choice, integration was achieved. Where choice was removed, integration was not achieved.

My conclusion is force didn't work.
What really intrest me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the universe ~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
rrichar911
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4853
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:03 pm
Location: Texas, God's country USA

Post by rrichar911 » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:56 pm

Perhaps a better way to aproach the subject would be to ask the question , why are virtually all large city schools composed of a very large %age of minority students?

That is why did attempts to intigrate them fail?

There could be other theories to compete with my observations.
What really intrest me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the universe ~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
Pyrrho
Administrator
Posts: 9800
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:31 am

Post by Pyrrho » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:57 pm

Isn't this more of a History topic?
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

User avatar
rrichar911
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4853
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:03 pm
Location: Texas, God's country USA

Post by rrichar911 » Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:26 am

Jim Dominic wrote:Isn't this more of a History topic?


It seems to be evolving in that direction. But the origional reason I posted it, was because I noticed that most areas in our society have become intigrated, while the public school has not. That is not an absolute as examples to the contrary exist, but still in virtually all large cities in America, there is no intigration, as a 95 to 5 ratio does not constitute intigration.

There is a reason or multiple reasons why the above is true.

I presented my theory off the top of my head, and am waiting for people to pole holes in it or present alternate theory as to why schools have been particurally hard to intigrate, i.e. harder than other areas of society which have been intigrated.

There does not seem to be much intrest in the subject ?
What really intrest me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the universe ~ Albert Einstein