Public School versus Private Education

Methods and means of supporting critical thinking in education
User avatar
Anchor of Life
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1020
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 5:59 am

Public School versus Private Education

Post by Anchor of Life » Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:49 am

In the past, knowledge has been the foremost goal of education, many times without regard to truth. It is vital to the reformation of our culture to have not only knowledge, but get all the way to truth. The Bible says “My people are destroyed for the lack of knowledge”, but knowledge is only the beginning of education.
The reason that public education in this country is virtually bankrupt is because they center in on nothing but knowledge. Knowledge is nothing more than the accumulation of fact. Without the next step, which is understanding, knowledge cannot even be put to use. And after understanding, you must get wisdom, which is the ability to use knowledge. And when you have wisdom and understanding in conjunction with knowledge, now you truly have learning. Then and only then can truth be assimilated into the context of everyday life. What we are after is truth. John 17:17 states “Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth”. Therefore, truth must be the basis of all education! Not knowledge, not fact! You can teach a parrot to regurgitate fact. This nation is full of intellectual illiterates; they’ve got a whole lot of accumulated knowledge but they have no wisdom. If public education is only going to provide students with knowledge, they have failed to educate our children. The school system should not be concerned with giving them facts, but teaching them to think.
The #1 profession in America that has the most children enrolled in private Christian education are public school teachers and public school administrators. That should tell you something. If public school is not where their children ought to be, is it where your children ought to be?
The American public school system is the most extensive and most expensive school system in the world. Education has become the second largest industry in America with more than 1/4 trillion dollars spent every year. However, public education in this country is a dismal failure at best. Teacher competency is down, administrative effectiveness is down, student achievement is down, test scores are down. Everything to do with our public school system is down, except for spending, crime, drug abuse, illicit sex, and cost to the taxpayer. If we live in the information age, why is so little information getting through to the students? If we are so intent on imparting knowledge, why do students know so little? Why do we see increased spending with deteriorating results? Because education is more than the transfer of knowledge. True education involves something much more including understanding and wisdom, which leads to truth in a world of conflicting facts and contradictory evidence.
The answer is, we need to restore and recover the kind of education our founding fathers enjoyed, the kind of education that made this nation the envy of the entire world, the kind of education that gave us the statesman and geniuses and heroes of the past. This kind of education can be our greatest gift to the next generation, but only if we have the will and confidence that truth will indeed bear its cherished fruit. The truth will set us free. This truth is available through a Christian education with a Biblical world view.
"This hope is a strong and trustworthy anchor for our souls." (Hebrews 6:19)

User avatar
izittrue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1952
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:09 pm
Custom Title: former poster
Location: the desert southwest of Az

Post by izittrue » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:42 am

yes the christian way is the only way to truth...
I am going to live forever because I believe in Santa Claus and God-
My sons 6 year old friend.

Kiless
Regular Poster
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:28 pm

Re: Public School versus Private Education

Post by Kiless » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:56 am

Anchor of Life wrote:The school system should not be concerned with giving them facts, but teaching them to think.


One part I'm intrigued by... what's wrong with both?

The #1 profession in America that has the most children enrolled in private Christian education are public school teachers and public school administrators.


Source, please.

Teacher competency is down, administrative effectiveness is down, student achievement is down, test scores are down. Everything to do with our public school system is down, except for spending, crime, drug abuse, illicit sex, and cost to the taxpayer.


Source, please. I could in fact use some of this for some research I'm doing, so it's rather useful for something beyond a forum board...

If we live in the information age, why is so little information getting through to the students? If we are so intent on imparting knowledge, why do students know so little? Why do we see increased spending with deteriorating results?


Source, please.

The answer is, we need to restore and recover the kind of education our founding fathers enjoyed, the kind of education that made this nation the envy of the entire world, the kind of education that gave us the statesman and geniuses and heroes of the past.


Heh. Heh heh heh.... you noticed that times have changed beyond those 'founding father' days and that even the 'good ol' days' weren't actually all they were cracked up to be?

Envy of the world? When? I'm a little lost there.

No, I'm a lot lost. I'm seeing many assertions but not much proof. By the way, as an international person, what do you consider to be a 'founding father'? I'd Google, but I'm interested in seeing which ones actually got the sort of education you are claiming and are counted by you.

Also, the 'geniuses' and the 'statesmen' and the 'heroes'.

(Wot, no women?)

This truth is available through a Christian education with a Biblical world view.


What do you think about creationism?
Copyright © 2004 - 2006 by Kiless, all rights reserved. Permission to quote open posts is granted for users on this forum only. All other use is prohibited except by express written permission of the author. Permission to quote PMs is absolutely denied.

Kiless
Regular Poster
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:28 pm

Post by Kiless » Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:01 pm

Eh, I shouldn't bother, huh? :roll:
Copyright © 2004 - 2006 by Kiless, all rights reserved. Permission to quote open posts is granted for users on this forum only. All other use is prohibited except by express written permission of the author. Permission to quote PMs is absolutely denied.

Athon
New Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:57 am

Post by Athon » Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:43 pm

Ah, I fondly emember my days of religious education in a private school. I lost count of how many times I was sent to the office because I dared argue with the establishment. Good times, good times.

'Education' and 'indoctrination' just sound so similar now don't they?

Athon

User avatar
Pedantica
Regular Poster
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:35 pm
Location: Precinct Fabulous

Post by Pedantica » Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:54 pm

I think we had this debate before. The evidence does not show that standards of education in the United States are falling. The evidence is that they are rising, just not as fast as a number of the country's international competitors.

If we looked at an international comparison of countries with the highest standards of education. Would those countries appearing above the United States in the list typically be ones with higher rates of Christian belief or lower? Would those countries appearing above the United States in the list typically be ones with better funded public education systems than the United States or worse?

Here are the top 10 countries from the 2000 study:

Literacy: Finland, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Ireland, Korea, United Kingdom, Japan, Sweden, Austria.
Mathematics: Japan, Korea, New Zealand, Finland, Australia, Canada, Switzerland, United Kingdom, Belgium, France.
Science: Korea, Japan, Finland, United Kingdom, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Austria, Ireland, Sweden.

http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/PISAHig ... e=3&quest=
http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/PISAHig ... e=5&quest=

[Zeke]
New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:23 am

Post by [Zeke] » Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:12 am

There's a large body that believes that private schools - because you pay for them - are better than public schools. I have no evidence to back up either, but I'd just like to point out that in private schools, they are much more lax about teacher credentials; in most of them, you don't even need a license. I'm aware of a nearby school whose coach was arrested for smuggling cocaine across the mexican border (or so the story goes) whose license was promptly revoked. He's now teaching at the local private school for boys.

Kiless
Regular Poster
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:28 pm

Post by Kiless » Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:02 am

[Zeke] wrote:There's a large body that believes that private schools - because you pay for them - are better than public schools. I have no evidence to back up either, but I'd just like to point out that in private schools, they are much more lax about teacher credentials; in most of them, you don't even need a license. I'm aware of a nearby school whose coach was arrested for smuggling cocaine across the mexican border (or so the story goes) whose license was promptly revoked. He's now teaching at the local private school for boys.


I think you'd have to check out the education department of your state - here in Australia everyone who is employed by any school, even in a non-teaching job, must have police clearance and be registered with the Australian College of Education.
Copyright © 2004 - 2006 by Kiless, all rights reserved. Permission to quote open posts is granted for users on this forum only. All other use is prohibited except by express written permission of the author. Permission to quote PMs is absolutely denied.

Athon
New Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:57 am

Post by Athon » Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:39 am

Just to correct that slightly, Kiless. In Queensland at least, it's a state body of registration, not the ACE.

Athon

Kiless
Regular Poster
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:28 pm

Post by Kiless » Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:22 am

Athon wrote:Just to correct that slightly, Kiless. In Queensland at least, it's a state body of registration, not the ACE.

Athon

Ah! I stand corrected. Don't we all have a federal legislation influencing all states for everyone to be police checked?
Copyright © 2004 - 2006 by Kiless, all rights reserved. Permission to quote open posts is granted for users on this forum only. All other use is prohibited except by express written permission of the author. Permission to quote PMs is absolutely denied.

Silly Green Monkey
Poster
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:04 am
Location: Tennessee

Post by Silly Green Monkey » Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:50 pm

The teachers at my private school were all church members. I doubt any of them had a teaching license or teaching education.
Normal is just a stereotype.

Kiless
Regular Poster
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:28 pm

Post by Kiless » Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:24 am

Silly Green Monkey wrote:The teachers at my private school were all church members. I doubt any of them had a teaching license or teaching education.


I recall a (fictional, mind) TV series called 'The Brides of Christ' where the nuns had no teaching degree when they taught. I'm wondering if now it's an international requirement or if a religious school can 'overlook' this. I should ask my Theology lecturer about it tonight.
Copyright © 2004 - 2006 by Kiless, all rights reserved. Permission to quote open posts is granted for users on this forum only. All other use is prohibited except by express written permission of the author. Permission to quote PMs is absolutely denied.

User avatar
Deft One
Poster
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:01 pm
Location: Nowhere in particular at the moment

Post by Deft One » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:55 am

Private schools aren't better than public schools, and private schools run by conservative Christian organizations are the worst. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0715-01.htm

[snip]

The federal Education Department reported that, in reading and math, children attending public schools generally do as well as or better than comparable children in private schools. The exception was in eighth-grade reading, where the private-school children did better.

The report, which compared fourth- and eighth-grade reading and math scores from nearly 7,000 public schools and more than 530 private schools in 2003, also found that conservative Christian schools lagged significantly behind public schools when it came to eighth-grade math.

The report separated private schools by type, and found that among private-school students, those in Lutheran schools did best, while those in conservative Christian schools did worst. For example, in eighth-grade reading, children in conservative Christian schools did no better than comparable children in public schools.

In eighth-grade math, children in Lutheran schools did significantly better than children in public schools, but those in conservative Christian schools fared worse.

[snip]

I wouldn't take this as an uncritical endorsement of the public school system, though—this report could also be interpreted as saying both public and private schools are doing just as poorly at educating kids, and all could use substantial improvement.

I am surprised a bit by the fact that more private schools weren't getting better test scores for one specific reason: selective admission. Private schools do have one sneaky edge over public schools in that they have more power to reject problematic children, while the public schools are obligated to make an effort to educate everyone. Maybe what this shows is that if you try to use economic advantage as a filter, rich kids aren't necessarily smarter than poor kids, and if you use ideology as your filter, Jesus-freaks aren't smarter (and maybe dumber) than kids with a ho-hum attitude towards religion. It may also mean that private schools have a whole different set of problems than do the public schools.

Anyway, the key thing is that these data show that there is no gain to be had from privatizing education, or worse, moving to 'faith-based' education. We can be aware of problems in the public schools, but we have to realize that switching to vouchers or otherwise ripping more money from the schools to support private efforts won't fix them.
"I haven't failed, I've found 10,000 ways that don't work." -- Thomas Edison

"Only dull people are brilliant at breakfast." --Oscar Wilde

User avatar
snooziums
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1660
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:16 pm
Location: Olympia, WA

Post by snooziums » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:47 am

Where is the evidence that a faith-based education system is better? I have not found any hard proof anywhere.

And what about all of the gay kids, how to they fair in faith-based schools? (Sorry, I had to ask that one).

Maybe a school that teaches the values of reincarnation? Just teach moral lesions through the idea behind karma. I should start one, many would fel safer sending their kids here than to a Christian-based school. (Note: I am being scaristic here, and just making a comparison, even though I really do believe in reincarnation).
Reviewing the massive amount of unsubstantiated or anecdotal claims, testimony, non-validated observational data, and philosophical studies, they actually suggest the existence of such an entity as the "soul." Although it cannot be determined what it is or if it is factual or not, it is my personal belief that there may very well be something there, and that it is worth looking into.

User avatar
BonnieMer
New Member
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:44 pm
Location: The Dark Side

Post by BonnieMer » Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:06 am

Let's just dissect these two first sentences, to see if it's even necessary to read the rest of this post.

In the past, knowledge has been the foremost goal of education
Knowledge is the familiarity, awareness, or understanding gained through experience or study. So, I would hope that the goal of education was and still IS gaining understanding through study.

many times without regard to truth.
Truth is conformity to an actuality or a statement accepted as true. Well, well, it seems that truth changes as societal norms change what is "accepted to be the truth". Truth changes, grows and evolves as the human races grows, changes and evolves.

It is vital to the reformation of our culture to have not only knowledge, but get all the way to truth.
It's telling that you use the word reformation here as it was a 16th century movement to change church doctrine.


So, it seems that the only way to truth is through knowledge, not the other way around! Knowledge SHOULD be the foremost goal of education, not truth. Wow, so much wrong and logically unsound in just the first 2 sentences. Nope, I don't even need to read the rest of it. Have a nice day!
Last edited by BonnieMer on Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick! - Ash, AoD

User avatar
Mordread
Regular Poster
Posts: 596
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:28 am

Post by Mordread » Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:08 am

If we looked at an international comparison of countries with the highest standards of education. Would those countries appearing above the United States in the list typically be ones with higher rates of Christian belief or lower? Would those countries appearing above the United States in the list typically be ones with better funded public education systems than the United States or worse?

Here are the top 10 countries from the 2000 study:

Literacy: Finland, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Ireland, Korea, United Kingdom, Japan, Sweden, Austria.
Mathematics: Japan, Korea, New Zealand, Finland, Australia, Canada, Switzerland, United Kingdom, Belgium, France.
Science: Korea, Japan, Finland, United Kingdom, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Austria, Ireland, Sweden.

http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/PISAHig ... gure=3&que st=
http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/PISAHig ... gure=5&que st=


Another note of interest - Of the countries listed above, from the 2000 study, all of them have much smaller populations than the United States.

Based on 2005 estimates:geography.about.com/cs/worldpopulation/a/mostpopulous.htm

The United States is the third largest country in terms of population. The country with the highest population from the above list is Japan (10th) and then the United Kingdom (22nd). The difference in population between Japan and the U.S. is about 115 million.

Countries participating in the study selected a sample of 15 year olds from both public and private schools - The sample for the U.S. was 4000 the first year the study was conducted. These samples were supposed to be nationally representative of each country.

Given the size difference in population, and that the results are given in percentages (i.e. 12% of 4000 students vs. 12% of 400), the U.S. will likely always score lower than these other countries, regardless of the state of the education system.

It doesn't help that we have a lot of Fundamentalist Christians that insist on dumbing down their kids because what they might be taught may threaten the world view with which they've tried to indoctrinate them.

User avatar
DeusEx_Humana
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1194
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 3:55 am
Location: Houston

Post by DeusEx_Humana » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:55 am

Time for my irrelevant anecdote of the day. I attended a xtian private school in the 7th and 8th grades...the two worst years of my life without a doubt.

SCITEACH
New Member
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:04 am
Location: Texas

Post by SCITEACH » Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:41 am

Of the countries listed above, from the 2000 study, all of them have much smaller populations than the United States.

We take all students and attempt to give all levels of competency and intelligence the same minimum level of education. Many foreign educational systems track the students at an early age into a curriculum that best fits their intelligence (be it academic, technological, art, or career path). One size fits all education rarely fits any.

However, public school is in many ways superior than private- the social skills that are learned can be valuable in life- after all public school has a lot of people who are not like you and isn't that what the world is made up of??

Finally, as a public school teacher, I will go up against any private school teacher in a one-to-one pedagogy and content to the death cage match- not all public school teachers are sub par as a couple of posts here seem to imply.
Evolution has been very very good to us

User avatar
Betelnut
Poster
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:05 am
Location: Maryland

Post by Betelnut » Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:37 am

I went to a typical 2000 student public school. I think I came out okay.

The advantage of public schools is that, at least the larger ones, there are also a large variety of classes and availability to training.

While in public high school, I: played in the orchestra, was on the annual staff, took a class exclusively devoted to Shakespeare, took drafting, took wood shop, took art, (my sister took jewelry making, printmaking and sculpture while in high school), took French, was in the choir, took physics, advanced placement English, a class devoted exclusively to mystery/adventure literature (Poe, Dickens, Doyle, etc.), took bowling. Hmm what else?

Anyway, the point is we were exposed to a lot because it was a large, reasonably well-funded high school.

That said, I think the fact that my parents read, had lots of books in our house, took classes themselves at the local community college, watched a lot of PBS on TV (Nature, Nova, etc.) and talked about politics, science, words and literature during family meals which we all sat down together to eat was also a key factor in my education.
St. Minutia using a sword to split a hair.
(St. Minutia is the patron saint of catalogers.)

“Non pilus tam tenuis ut secari non posit.”

SCITEACH
New Member
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:04 am
Location: Texas

Post by SCITEACH » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:09 am

Betelnut wrote:
That said, I think the fact that my parents read, had lots of books in our house, took classes themselves at the local community college, watched a lot of PBS on TV (Nature, Nova, etc.) and talked about politics, science, words and literature during family meals which we all sat down together to eat was also a key factor in my education.


Studies have shown a correlation between the academic success of a student and the educational level of the student's primary care giver. This ties in with the amount of parental involvment in the student's education.
Source- American Journal of Community Psychology- Volume 18, Number 4 / August, 1990

Linking Parent Involvement with Student Achievement: Do Race and Income Matter Journal article by Laura Desimone; The Journal of Educational Research, Vol. 93, 1999

Sorry for the sloppy citations- in a bit of a hurry
Evolution has been very very good to us

Kiless
Regular Poster
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:28 pm

Post by Kiless » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:34 am

SCITEACH wrote:
Betelnut wrote:
That said, I think the fact that my parents read, had lots of books in our house, took classes themselves at the local community college, watched a lot of PBS on TV (Nature, Nova, etc.) and talked about politics, science, words and literature during family meals which we all sat down together to eat was also a key factor in my education.


Studies have shown a correlation between the academic success of a student and the educational level of the student's primary care giver. This ties in with the amount of parental involvment in the student's education.
Source- American Journal of Community Psychology- Volume 18, Number 4 / August, 1990

Linking Parent Involvement with Student Achievement: Do Race and Income Matter Journal article by Laura Desimone; The Journal of Educational Research, Vol. 93, 1999

Sorry for the sloppy citations- in a bit of a hurry


I've read (and should dig out the citations, mind) that the correlation is significantly linked to the mother's level of education?

I'll do some digging too...
Copyright © 2004 - 2006 by Kiless, all rights reserved. Permission to quote open posts is granted for users on this forum only. All other use is prohibited except by express written permission of the author. Permission to quote PMs is absolutely denied.

SCITEACH
New Member
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:04 am
Location: Texas

Post by SCITEACH » Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:36 pm

You are right most of the studies state mother's level of education. Traditionally the mother has been the primary care giver, but in today's world grandparent, fathers, and others take on the role of primacy in day to day care of children. This is not meant to be PC, but merely reflect the realities of today’s world. I read a study last year (sorry don’t have the citation on this machine that brought this point home.
Evolution has been very very good to us

Kiless
Regular Poster
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:28 pm

Post by Kiless » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:59 pm

SCITEACH wrote:You are right most of the studies state mother's level of education. Traditionally the mother has been the primary care giver, but in today's world grandparent, fathers, and others take on the role of primacy in day to day care of children. This is not meant to be PC, but merely reflect the realities of today’s world. I read a study last year (sorry don’t have the citation on this machine that brought this point home.

Actually, SCITEACH, I thought it was the opposite?

With the loss of the extended family and the rise of the nuclear family... and then the rise of the single parent family, isn't it more likely that in 'today's world' that primacy care of the child won't fall on the absent grandparent or father - but the part-time working mother, the single mother or the creche? The mother still influences academic success but circumstances have changed from when we kept in close proximity to our grandparents or (even now)! have a father who was able to work around career expectations to care for a child.

We've had massive debates in this country about the rise of creches and childcare facilities, with one apocryphal tale about a mother who dropped of their one week old baby at the creche on the way back from giving birth at the hospital...

So I was wondering about 'grandparents and father's' getting the brunt of it. Certainly mother's groups are popular over here for helping with the care of children too... I'll have to do more poking about to find evidence for my assertations! :)
Copyright © 2004 - 2006 by Kiless, all rights reserved. Permission to quote open posts is granted for users on this forum only. All other use is prohibited except by express written permission of the author. Permission to quote PMs is absolutely denied.

User avatar
snooziums
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1660
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:16 pm
Location: Olympia, WA

Post by snooziums » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:08 am

SCITEACH wrote:However, public school is in many ways superior than private- the social skills that are learned can be valuable in life- after all public school has a lot of people who are not like you and isn't that what the world is made up of??


Actually, that is part of why I was taken out of public school when I was very young.

Public school does not allow for any student that has any special needs, sadly.
Reviewing the massive amount of unsubstantiated or anecdotal claims, testimony, non-validated observational data, and philosophical studies, they actually suggest the existence of such an entity as the "soul." Although it cannot be determined what it is or if it is factual or not, it is my personal belief that there may very well be something there, and that it is worth looking into.

Kiless
Regular Poster
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:28 pm

Post by Kiless » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:16 am

snooziums wrote:
SCITEACH wrote:However, public school is in many ways superior than private- the social skills that are learned can be valuable in life- after all public school has a lot of people who are not like you and isn't that what the world is made up of??


Actually, that is part of why I was taken out of public school when I was very young.

Public school does not allow for any student that has any special needs, sadly.


In this country, if you have a student with special needs and your school can legitimately cater for them, you must. All students have the right to attend a school. We are required by law to install ramps, cater to have classes on the ground floor, have toilet and canteen facilities, have government funding for assistants, et al. I think only if a school was really really oddly built (and that wouldn't happen these days what with renovations et al) it should suit a special needs student. Should be made to. Do you mind if I ask what was your experience exactly?
Copyright © 2004 - 2006 by Kiless, all rights reserved. Permission to quote open posts is granted for users on this forum only. All other use is prohibited except by express written permission of the author. Permission to quote PMs is absolutely denied.

User avatar
snooziums
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1660
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:16 pm
Location: Olympia, WA

Post by snooziums » Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:48 am

Kiless wrote:Do you mind if I ask what was your experience exactly?


It is kind of personal, however...

In second grade, I attempted suicide while in school, and the school did not want to deal with that. They made my life rather hard in school because of that, like not calling for help and placing me in a closet to "reflect on my actions."
Reviewing the massive amount of unsubstantiated or anecdotal claims, testimony, non-validated observational data, and philosophical studies, they actually suggest the existence of such an entity as the "soul." Although it cannot be determined what it is or if it is factual or not, it is my personal belief that there may very well be something there, and that it is worth looking into.

SCITEACH
New Member
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:04 am
Location: Texas

Post by SCITEACH » Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:57 am

Kliess, no discussion that a solid family influences student achievment. I was refering to the education level of the person most responsible for raising the child (be it mother, father, grandparent, etc). I don't have numbers to back it up, but there does seem to have been a major rise of single mothers raising children over the last 25 years. Between that fact and the number of stay-at-home mothers- yes the woman is most often the person raising the child. However, there has also been a rise over the last 25 years or grandparents, single fathers, and stay-at-home dads being the people most responsible for raising the child. No matter what the educational level of the parents- if they hand off the child to be raised in day-care the point is often mute.

Another major factor is the socio-economic level of the household- in my humble experience this seems to be the number one indicator of academic success and of the student reaching her maximum potential. A hard hurdle to overcome. Students from low socio-economic background often do not bring to school the experiences and expectations that are often required to succeed- in school or society. A vicious cycle at best.


Race, Cultural Capital, and Educational Resources: Persistent Inequalities and Achievement Returns Vincent J. Roscigno, James W. Ainsworth-Darnell
Sociology of Education, Vol. 72, No. 3 (Jul., 1999), pp. 158-178

Family Background, Educational Resources, and Educational Attainment
Jay D. Teachman American Sociological Review, Vol. 52, No. 4 (Aug., 1987), pp. 548-557
Evolution has been very very good to us

Kiless
Regular Poster
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:28 pm

Post by Kiless » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:08 pm

snooziums wrote:
Kiless wrote:Do you mind if I ask what was your experience exactly?


It is kind of personal, however...

In second grade, I attempted suicide while in school, and the school did not want to deal with that. They made my life rather hard in school because of that, like not calling for help and placing me in a closet to "reflect on my actions."


Sorry if it seemed like I'm prying. :( I had two friends who self-harmed during their school years, one openly in the science class I was in. I think with the growing awareness (and the likely law case they'd be under) that such a circumstance would be challenged these days... but I have been called Pollyanna Optimistic before... :( It is, overall, disgusting that your school choose to act that way.

Thanks SCITECH for the information; it'd never came up in my studies before about childraising being the grandparents/single fathers or stay-at-home dads... perhaps it's different in my country? I might see what I can find.

My more recent assigmnent studies popped up with a few articles along the lines of what you're saying, although most of my proper research references were from journals - these seem to be more relevant to what you say:

In Peter Smolowitz’s article ‘Best in School? In 2006, Girls Rule’, he discusses how people are starting to notice a trend in girls graduating as the high school valedictorians and the shift in college applications towards more women applying, with a statement from the Washington-based American Association of Collegiate Registrars on how ‘more of the most qualified applicants are girls.’(1) Other articles I have found criticise researchers and writers who tend towards viewing school issues as a whole through ‘gender-lenses’, as they tend to encourage a ‘one-size fits all attitude’; Ann Hulbert sums up in the online article ‘Will Boys Be Boys?’ the arguments from Whitmire in The New Republic and Christina Hoff Sommer’s The War Against Boys and concludes that she finds the idea of a ‘crisis’ in boys’ education is more about socioeconomic inequality.(2)“The marked contrasts in educational performance and college attendance,” she argues, “show up between races and social classes; minority and poor males lag furthest behind, especially in college attendance.”(3)

References:
1. ‘Best in School? In 2006, Girls Rule – Valedictorian Disparity Mirrors National Trend’ by Peter Smolowitz, http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/ ... 873687.htm, accessed 25/6/2006, 22nd June, 2006.
2. “Will Boys Be Boys? – Why the Gender Lens May Not Shed Light on the Latest Educational Crisis” by Ann Hulbert, http://www.slate.com/toolbar.aspx?actio ... id=2135243, accessed 25/6/2006, 1st February, 2006.
3. “Will Boys Be Boys? – Why the Gender Lens May Not Shed Light on the Latest Educational Crisis” by Ann Hulbert, http://www.slate.com/toolbar.aspx?actio ... id=2135243, accessed 25/6/2006, 1st February, 2006.
Copyright © 2004 - 2006 by Kiless, all rights reserved. Permission to quote open posts is granted for users on this forum only. All other use is prohibited except by express written permission of the author. Permission to quote PMs is absolutely denied.

SCITEACH
New Member
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:04 am
Location: Texas

Post by SCITEACH » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:52 pm

[ Ann Hulbert sums up in the online article ‘Will Boys Be Boys?’ the arguments from Whitmire in The New Republic and Christina Hoff Sommer’s The War Against Boys and concludes that she finds the idea of a ‘crisis’ in boys’ education is more about socioeconomic inequality.(2)“The marked contrasts in educational performance and college attendance,” she argues, “show up between races and social classes; minority and poor males lag furthest behind, especially in college attendance.”(3)[/i]


Good stuff.

Thanks
Evolution has been very very good to us

Kiless
Regular Poster
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:28 pm

Post by Kiless » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:37 pm

At the moment, there's been media attention paid to the fact that there's a growing number of low-fee paying private schools being built. In fact, there's one two blocks from me that are advertising for opening next year. It is, interestingly enough, 'Christian' but not a denomination or group that I'm familiar with.

Considering the growing number of 'community' churches in the area which also don't seem to be from a particular tradition, perhaps they're affiliated with them... I should check. I was wondering if this is also happening or has been happening overseas? New private schools that have low fees and are 'religious' but not mainstream Catholic / Anglican / Uniting Church / et al?
Copyright © 2004 - 2006 by Kiless, all rights reserved. Permission to quote open posts is granted for users on this forum only. All other use is prohibited except by express written permission of the author. Permission to quote PMs is absolutely denied.

User avatar
skepticality
New Member
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:08 am
Location: Roswell, GA

Post by skepticality » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:43 pm

Reminds me, I have to ask my boss if we can get his wife on our show. His wife is a teacher at a school attached to a MEGA Church down the road from me. I wonder if there is any cool things she could 'enlighten' us about!

Kiless wrote:At the moment, there's been media attention paid to the fact that there's a growing number of low-fee paying private schools being built. In fact, there's one two blocks from me that are advertising for opening next year. It is, interestingly enough, 'Christian' but not a denomination or group that I'm familiar with.

Considering the growing number of 'community' churches in the area which also don't seem to be from a particular tradition, perhaps they're affiliated with them... I should check. I was wondering if this is also happening or has been happening overseas? New private schools that have low fees and are 'religious' but not mainstream Catholic / Anglican / Uniting Church / et al?
Derek Colanduno
Host - skepticality
The Official Podcast of Skeptic Magazine!
http://www.skepticality.com/

Kiless
Regular Poster
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:28 pm

Post by Kiless » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:48 pm

skepticality wrote:Reminds me, I have to ask my boss if we can get his wife on our show. His wife is a teacher at a school attached to a MEGA Church down the road from me. I wonder if there is any cool things she could 'enlighten' us about!


Try being a teacher who has:

Graduated from a Catholic university
Worked for an Islamic College
Worked for an Anglican College
Was nearly headhunted by a Jewish College (got engaged, was moving house, had to withdraw application)
Works for the Uniting Church
Currently studying compulsory Theology unit for degree (it's not that bad, mind, learning a lot of things about what really goes on with chaplains)

... and is an atheist.

But yes, talking to teachers on campuses of religious schools, you'll find quite a few 'non-religious' sorts who just wear the hijab for 'school uniform' and get down to the business of educating.
Copyright © 2004 - 2006 by Kiless, all rights reserved. Permission to quote open posts is granted for users on this forum only. All other use is prohibited except by express written permission of the author. Permission to quote PMs is absolutely denied.

Foozball
New Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:28 am

Post by Foozball » Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:54 pm

Public is bossed around by the public, Private is bossed around by money, Teach yourself or be home schooled and You are the master of all you convey ;)
Marge: Homer! There's someone here who can help you...
Homer: Is it Batman?
Marge: No, he's a scientist.
Homer: Batman's a scientist?!
Marge: It's not Batman!