English multitopic

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Re: English multitopic

Post by TJrandom » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:44 am

Lot, alot, a lot, came a lot, Camelot? Very confusing....

I may have been taught the `never end a setntence wih a preposition` rule, but What for? :)

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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:55 am

I gess you hav a point there. We dont usually leave and gap between wordz. Its more about understanding the meaning uv the sentens and individual wordz that allowz us to know where 1 word endz and the next beginz.

But therez still the meaning. alot meanz a larj amount. a lot meanz a patch uv land or a collection uv thingz.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by TJrandom » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:35 pm

JO 753 wrote: ... But therez still the meaning. alot meanz a larj amount. a lot meanz a patch uv land or a collection uv thingz.
Or one of Lot`s children, wife, other family members....

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Poodle » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:43 pm

TJrandom wrote:Lot, alot, a lot, came a lot, Camelot? Very confusing....

I may have been taught the `never end a setntence wih a preposition` rule, but What for? :)
I've never been able to find or work out why the rule should exist other than to create tortuous sentence constructions. But it's typical of the 'Rules of Good English' which, of course, cease to be rules almost as soon as they're formulated. Living languages are like that. As JO proves, you don't even have to spell words correctly to write perfectly understandable English. On a practical level, anything is fine so long as what is said or written transmits the information intended.

On the other hand, I like my language - even with its stupid rules. Except for prepositions - that rule I can happily live without.

EDIT: As happens so often, the moment you say you can't find the answer, it pops up out of nowhere ...

The preposition rule in English was expounded by the Poet John Dryden merely from personal preference because Dryden was a pompous dick and thought that anything to be found in Latin must also apply to English. And it's in Latin where the preposition rule is an absolute must - the very word, preposition, is rooted in Latin word order.

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:39 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Gord: it was never named.

If you think it was, please copy and paste.
ROBERT! I named it ROBERT!
Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:OK Poodle--this might be worth one circle? You say: 'No one mentioned it, other than Gord's later comment on time being a direction in itself. Gord's correct - or perhaps you have a unique concept of time?" ///

Name the direction.
Robert.

How does that help? :befuddled:
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Re: English multitopic

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:39 pm

Caps now for "asked and answered?" I have already said to give your comment meaning.

But, since you persist, let me go back and review and see if I can rephrase it for our mutual benefit?

.................................From Page 2, here is the heart of the development:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:

Gord wrote:

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
There is no "direction" in language development.


There is a "time" direction in the development of anything.


Time has no direction with regard to language.


Time has a direction with regard to the development of anything.

In what I have to guess you mean, languages grow and shrink according to circumstances other than the passage of time.


No, I mean that change occurs over time. Anything that changes does so over time. Time goes in one direction, forward, and development requires change, which occurs over time, which occurs in one direction.
Everyone agrees that change occurs over time. That does not give the development of language "a direction" which still remains a meaningless concept. Give your comment meaning by giving it a definition or examples other than language changing over time. Time goes in one direction (as an analogy) but change does not.

I could say the Sun coming up every day which affects language because the sun comes up every day.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:33 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Caps now for "asked and answered?"
Er, no. Caps for ROBERT. Because you didn't seem to notice it the first time.
I have already said to give your comment meaning.
My comment already had meaning. I'll ask again: How does naming the direction of time help?
But, since you persist, let me go back and review and see if I can rephrase it for our mutual benefit?

.................................From Page 2, here is the heart of the development:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:

Gord wrote:

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
There is no "direction" in language development.


There is a "time" direction in the development of anything.


Time has no direction with regard to language.


Time has a direction with regard to the development of anything.

In what I have to guess you mean, languages grow and shrink according to circumstances other than the passage of time.


No, I mean that change occurs over time. Anything that changes does so over time. Time goes in one direction, forward, and development requires change, which occurs over time, which occurs in one direction.
Yeah. I know. I was there, remember?
Everyone agrees that change occurs over time. That does not give the development of language "a direction" which still remains a meaningless concept.
Yes it does. Language changes over time, and time has a direction. It's not a meaningless concept, except to you, but that's because you either don't understand it or refuse to understand it (I'm not sure which, it's a pretty simple concept).
Give your comment meaning by giving it a definition or examples other than language changing over time.
Ummm...what? My comment already has meaning. You want me to give it a different meaning? No!
Time goes in one direction (as an analogy) but change does not.
Change occurs over time, which has a direction. Change occurs in that direction. It has to, because change occurs "over time".
I could say the Sun coming up every day which affects language because the sun comes up every day.
Yes. That's why we have words like "sunrise", "daytime", etc.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Monster » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:05 pm

Newest English oddity that I would like to smear on this forum: exclusive and inclusive or.

One of my computer science teachers, when explaining exclusive or and inclusive or to us, said that the English "or" is the exclusive or and that the inclusive or doesn't exist in English.

Years later, I had an internet argument with people about this very subject. I maintained my teacher's stance. A guy responded saying that the inclusive or is used. For example, "Do you want milk or sugar with your coffee?" I thought that was a reasonable response, so I changed my mind about the inclusive or.

However, in recent weeks, I thought about it again, and my comp sci teacher was right.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, I'll explain it from a comp sci perspective. Look at this expression.
operand1 operator operand2 = result
If inclusive or is the operator, the result is true if either operand1 or operand2 are true. If both are false, then result is false. If just one is true, then result is true.

If exclusive or is the operator, the result is true only if exactly one of the operands are true. If both are true or if both are false, then the result is false.

If and is the operator, the result is true if both of the operands are true. False otherwise.

So, let's look at some examples.

Do you want milk and sugar with your coffee?

A reasonable answer is "yes". That means you want both.

Do you want milk or sugar with your coffee?

Now, if that was inclusive or, you should be able to say "yes" as an answer. But you can't. You must specify which of the two items you want.

I'll probably think of other arguments in favor of my opinion later.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:40 pm

I hav been riting 'andor' wen appropriate for decadez. Youv probably seen 'and/or', so I think its well established that 'or' iz not inclusiv.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Poodle » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:23 pm

"2. Used to indicate a synonymous or equivalent expression: acrophobia, or fear of great heights" (from some internet dictionary) at first sight appears to be the use of inclusive or. But it's not. It's simply an alternative expression - you can't say "acrophobia" and "fear of great heights" at the same time.

You're correct, Gord - 'or' is never inclusive in the English language (until some bright spark finds it).

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Monster » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:40 pm

Poodle wrote:"2. Used to indicate a synonymous or equivalent expression: acrophobia, or fear of great heights" (from some internet dictionary) at first sight appears to be the use of inclusive or. But it's not. It's simply an alternative expression - you can't say "acrophobia" and "fear of great heights" at the same time.

You're correct, Gord - 'or' is never inclusive in the English language (until some bright spark finds it).
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:41 am

Monster wrote:
Poodle wrote:"2. Used to indicate a synonymous or equivalent expression: acrophobia, or fear of great heights" (from some internet dictionary) at first sight appears to be the use of inclusive or. But it's not. It's simply an alternative expression - you can't say "acrophobia" and "fear of great heights" at the same time.

You're correct, Gord - 'or' is never inclusive in the English language (until some bright spark finds it).
Gord?
:befuddled:



...anywhooooo.... I use the inclusive or all the time when I speak, or when I answer silly questions like "would you like cream or sugar in your coffee". If I want either cream or sugar or both, I'll answer "yes". If I want neither cream nor sugar, I'll answer "no". If I answer "yes", people invariably ask me "which?" At that point, I'll either explain myself more accurately, or I'll purposefully remain vague by answering "cream or sugar".

Usually people laugh at me, then leave me alone so I can put my own damn cream and sugar in my damn coffee -- y'know, the way Gord intended.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Austin Harper » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:03 am

When I was in South Africa and I ordered coffee with no milk or sugar I got just a little milk and sugar.
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:04 pm

Is that the "exclusive no" or the "inclusive no"?
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Re: English multitopic

Post by TJrandom » Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:35 pm

From my assembler programming days, I remember using exclusive or three times in a row - so that the contents would be swapped without using additional storage... A EXO B, B EXO A, A EXO B...

As for coffee, sugar, and milk - when diving in the Southern Seas - the question never came up - since all three were pre-mixed. If you didn`t want one of the three, you faced a hard task of separation with a tiny object.

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Austin Harper » Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:55 pm

Gord wrote:Is that the "exclusive no" or the "inclusive no"?
Yes.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Monster » Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:17 pm

What is the word for the person who sews? I looked in dictionary.com and they had the word "sewer", but that has a new pronunciation and usage from the long ago. Could I say sewor? That doesn't look right. I feel like the words "tailor" and "seamstress" aren't right because those words mean more than just a person who sews.

And while I'm at it, what about the word for the person who prays? I've used prayor in the past, and that looks ok to me. Pronounced the same as prayer though.

I suppose what looks good and what doesn't is a matter of personal taste. At least to some extent.

Perhaps there aren't individual words for these people in English.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:56 pm

sewing: seamster or seamstress (very rarely in the male form)

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Re: English multitopic

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:51 pm

Or just seamer - per dictionary.com....

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:14 pm

Ask Threads Magazine: http://www.threadsmagazine.com/item/275 ... -vs-sewist
According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary and others, the first known use of the word "sewer" to mean "one that sews" occurred in the 14th century. Over time, a variety of terms have evolved to describe those who sew garments. Sewer remains the dominant term, but sewist (combining "sew" with "artist") appears to be gaining popularity, especially among sewing bloggers.
But do sewers smell bad? :heh:
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Re: English multitopic

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:12 pm

Monster wrote:
And while I'm at it, what about the word for the person who prays? I've used prayor in the past, and that looks ok to me. Pronounced the same as prayer though.
I guess in the case of Catholic priests that would be a "praydator".

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Re: English multitopic

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:23 pm

.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:32 pm

Woudnt it be nise if we coud uze all suffixez & prefixez in all appropriate casez?

I know such teknolojy haz been condemd by the authorityz, but its fun to dream.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:50 pm

I like the Australian insulting term "wanker" and its complex grammatical rules.

A bloke can call another bloke a "wanker"
A woman can call a bloke a "wanker"
A bloke or a woman, can call a collective mixed group of men and women, "a bunch of wankers"

However no one can call a solitary female a "wanker" that would show poor use of the English language.
:D
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:23 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:However no one can call a solitary female a "wanker" that would show poor use of the English language. :D
Actually, you can. But it would imply at least one additional thing.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:41 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:However no one can call a solitary female a "wanker" that would show poor use of the English language. :D
Gord wrote:Actually, you can. But it would imply at least one additional thing.
That's right Gord. Females simply don't collect Wankel rotary engines. Were you talking about something else? What was that? :D
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:58 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:However no one can call a solitary female a "wanker" that would show poor use of the English language. :D
Gord wrote:Actually, you can. But it would imply at least one additional thing.
That's right Gord. Females simply don't collect Wankel rotary engines. Were you talking about something else? What was that? :D
wankel-engine.jpg
There are at least three possibilities. :P
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:17 am

"Until."

The word until is a compound of two words, un and till, which both meant until. We still use till to mean until, but we also shorten until to 'til, in which case it means both until and till.

I {!#%@} you not.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:49 pm

Gord wrote:"Until."

The word until is a compound of two words, un and till, which both meant until. We still use till to mean until, but we also shorten until to 'til, in which case it means both until and till.

I {!#%@} you not.
Predicated upon a non-existent common English language at the time. See also 'unto'. At the time of the formation of these words, Northumbrian English was not the same as Mercian (midland) English which was not the same as Saxon (southern) English. Mercian was heavily influenced by both of the others, leading to mongrel words such as the ones we're looking at. However, it's Mercian English (which sounded more like modern-day lowland Scottish pronunciation) which eventually had the biggest effect upon modern English.

Eventually, that led to local differences between Oxford and Cambridge spellings which, in turn, formed the basis of such things as -ised and -ized endings. English is a language with one hell of a complicated history.

EDIT: I should explain that - the -ised ending was pronounced quite literally as ee-sed (and similarly for -ized) in Middle English. That helps when dealing with Shakespeare (even though he was Early Modern English).

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:27 am

Such mongrel words also ended up in place names. There are hills in England called Torpenhow, Bredon Hill, and Pendle Hill, which are all composed of multiple words meaning "hill". Not only that, but near Pendle Hill is a town called Pendleton, and the "-ton" ending could mean "town" (from the Old English tun), but it might also mean "hill" (from the Old English dun); and in Connecticut is Pendleton Hill, which therefore means either "hill hill town hill" or "hill hill hill hill".

Montcuq in France means "mount mount".

"Gibraltar" is from the Arabic Jebel-Al-Tariq, which means "The Rock of Tariq", so "The Rock of Gibraltar" means "The Rock of The Rock of Tariq".
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:20 am

Ever heard of John Duns?

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/duns-scotus/
John Duns Scotus (1265/66–1308) was one of the most important and influential philosopher-theologians of the High Middle Ages. His brilliantly complex and nuanced thought, which earned him the nickname “the Subtle Doctor,” left a mark on discussions of such disparate topics as the semantics of religious language, the problem of universals, divine illumination, and the nature of human freedom.
His proponents were called "Dunses".

This is believed to be the source for the word "dunce"; in the 16th century, the Protestants opposed the new King James Bible, and turned the name into an insult: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=dunce

Kinda like "Liberal"! :heh:
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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:16 am

A few resent developments to proov that idiots are in control uv English.

'Dont leave anything on the table' - advise for making dealz.

But!

'Leave it all on the staje' - advise for performerz.

'Easter egg' meant a hidden feature on a DVD. Now its dejenerating into any referens to other moviez, showz, books, etc.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:24 am

Where is the idiocy?
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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:46 am

If you haf to ask....
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Re: English multitopic

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:47 am

Ok...................there is no idiocy.

Prove me wrong.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:03 am

Leave nothing on the table meanz that you dont get less for wut youre selling than you possibly can.

Sumwun who knowz this fraze woud then think 'she left it all on the stage' meant she performed terribly.

Conversely, A performer whoz ajent tellz her 'I left nothing on the table' at the record company negotiation woud think the deal fell thru.

You see, they shoud mean approximately the same thing, but sins its all perspectiv, you cant know wut they mean without further context or direct explanation.

Easter egg meaning 'reference' completely wastes the orijinal idea that easter eggz are part uv a game in wich they are hidden.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:28 am

So.....all you are dealing with is that words gain meaning from their context. You know that....but post as if you don't.

THAT is ...............not idiocy.............some other aberration.

A table is not a stage...two different contexts. So...what the two phrases approximately share in common is talking about various levels of effort for different activities.

Your point is much better made with different examples. Still aberrant, so I'll leave you with that.

Easter Egg: something not readily apparent unless you look for it or you know something. A nice growth in the initial concept...........just how ALL LANGUAGE FORMS and grows. Silly to think otherwise. And you know it.

Just saying.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:38 am

Will it be OK by you wen dictionary definitionz are worthless kuz context iz the only way to know wut anything meanz? Its alwayz been about haf way there, but I think therez sum point wen the kaos gets out uv hand.

I made up a saying in 1984: "I'm the baddest dude that ever wuz bad ever sins it wuz good to be bad". Just having a little fun with the new slang twist, thinking it woud soon fade away. It didnt, so now wen you say 'he'z bad', it can entail a tiresum conversation to clarify wether its the good bad or the bad bad.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Austin Harper » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:21 pm

JO 753 wrote:A few resent developments to proov that idiots are in control uv English.

'Dont leave anything on the table' - advise for making dealz.

But!

'Leave it all on the staje' - advise for performerz.
What is the problem with these idioms? The table is the proverbial negotiating table, leaving something on it would mean not taking advantage of your negotiating ability. The stage is the performing stage, taking something with you off of the stage would mean you didn't perform to you fullest ability, disappointing your audience. They're different situations and you want different outcomes from them so you would either want to take everything or leave everything.
JO 753 wrote:'Easter egg' meant a hidden feature on a DVD. Now its dejenerating into any referens to other moviez, showz, books, etc.
As far as I know, the term "Easter egg" comes from programming in the 70s meaning an undocumented feature of a program; maybe a command not listed in the user manual. They are called that because they are hidden like you hide an Easter egg. The term has expanded since then to mean something hidden in almost any context, but I disagree that it means any reference to other things especially if that reference is the focus of the scene. So an Easter Egg would be the R2-D2 hieroglyphs in Indiana Jones because they aren't part of the story and they aren't referenced, their just hidden in the frame. If Indiana Jones had said "Boy, I sure do love that Han Solo guy in Star Wars" that would not be an Easter egg since it wouldn't be hidden.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:23 am

Jo--you reveal you don't use the dictionary much. Pick it up, give it a read. Like a history book or a social studies: interesting if you have that interest.

ie: idioms as Austin points out, or context as I characterized it, are almost always given.

Again: language cannot be any other way. Silly to post otherwise. Rejoice that it is alive.
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