English multitopic

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:16 pm

Gord wrote:How do you pronounce "ye"? It's pronounced "the".
I didn't find that out until I was quite old. I thought is was simply a printer's convention to save sorting out type faces, I am obviously wrong again. I should have realised I was wrong because the "Ye old shoppe" is also painted and not only in printer's typeface. :frown:

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Poodle » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:24 pm

Yank you for yat.

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:34 pm

Ȝou're welcome.

(That's a yogh, by the way.)
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Poodle » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:41 pm

A yogh? I thought you were being serious.

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:01 am

I ȝam.
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"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:13 pm

It gets more confusing!

As you said, Y was often substituted in for the missing Þ character in printing presses, but did you know that there is another similar-sounding letter that we have dropped from English: Ð,ð (eth), which makes an unvoiced "th" sound while Þ makes a voiced th sound in modern Icelandic as well as a few other languages. However, because an unvoiced "th" sounds similar to a "d", Ð is often transliterated as either "dh" or simply as "d". The letter Þ comes from the elder Futhark/Fuþark rune ᚦ (thurisaz), and the other mentioned unused letter Ƿ (wynn) comes from the rune ᚹ of the same name. However, the letter Ð comes from Irish writing in the Latin alphabet as simply a D with a cross stroke. While it is commonly referred to in modern English as "eth" this is because we are using its modern Icelandic name, but in Old English its name was ðæt (pronounced like the Modern English word "that"). Both Þ and Ð are used frequently in Old English texts, with no distinction made between them in pronunciation. In fact, sometimes authors would switch their use in the same passage! For simplicity, I will be using exclusively Þ for the rest of this post.

To make matters of pronunciation even more confusing to Modern English speakers, the words "the" and "thee" are both written as Þe. Some publishers will add macrons over long vowels and dots over softened Gs (more on that later) to make pronunciation easier. This is also frequently done in introductory textbooks for Latin. In most Old English texts, the word for "the" is "se", but in late Old English this had sometimes morphed into "Þe" to follow the format of the word's other declensions (eg þone, þæs, etc.) See full table for details.

But what about the word "thee"? That word comes from the Old English "þē", the accusative form of "þū". Note the long "u" sound, making the word pronounced "thoo". The genitive form þīn gives us the [Modern] English "thine". Old English All of these þ words are for singular use (used with one person). Old English also had a dual form (used with two people) that we have completely dropped and a plural form (used with three or more people): ġē. Note the dot over the g meaning that the g is soft (pronounced like a modern y) and the macron over the e, making it long. So the word "ġē" is pronounced "yee". It also has corresponding accusative form ēow (you) and genitive form ēower (your).

As another side note, "Olde" has never been the way "old" was spelled. The Modern English "old" comes from Middle English "ald" which comes from the Old English "eald"). This is a cognate with the Scots word "auld" as seen in the song "Auld Lang Syne" (see more about that in my post here).

So when somebody writes "Ye Olde Shoppe" what they really meant was "Þe Eald Sceoppa", pronounced "Thee (Y)ald Shoppa".
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:43 am

Indeedy doodly! F'r instance, in old Norse poems, the same word was often spelt using Ð,ð (eth) in one writer's version and Þ, þ (thorn) in another writer's version. When reading about Odin, you would often find Oðin but sometimes Oþin. Some translators would call him Othin because of this.

Because of the individualized spelling, it's often necessary to compare two or more sources and come up with a "standardized" version, like this: http://www.germanicmythology.com/PoeticEdda/GRM01.html

Codex Regius
MS No. 2365 4to [R]


Heitr ertu, hripvþr....

Arnamagnæan Codex
AM 748 I 4to [A]


Heitr ertu, hripvðr....

1954 Guðni Jónsson
Normalized


Heitr ertu, hripuðr....

(Best example I could find on short notice; I've seen much more obvious diffences in other online sources, but it was a while ago and they seem to be gone now. :( )
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"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:23 pm

I wish I could remember the name of the book, but I have a collection of Old English poetry that sometimes has multiple versions side-by-side from different regions (Mercia, Sussex, Kent, etc.) and it's interesting to see how the spellings (and presumably pronunciations) vary.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by TJrandom » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:51 pm

Austin Harper wrote:I wish I could remember the name of the book, but I have a collection of Old English poetry that sometimes has multiple versions side-by-side from different regions (Mercia, Sussex, Kent, etc.) and it's interesting to see how the spellings (and presumably pronunciations) vary.
Englishmen who can`t spell? Whodathoughtit... :(

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Poodle » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:37 pm

As Geoffrey Chaucer so aptly put it ...

And for ther is so greet diversitee
In English and in wryting of our tonge,
So preye I god that noon miswryte thee,
Ne thee mismetre for defaute of tonge.
And red wher-so thou be, or elles songe,
That thou be understonde I god beseche!
But yet to purpos of my rather speche.

That's 14th century English. Well, at least it's the version of English spoken in London in the 14th century. It was virtually unintelligible if you happened to be from the north of England, which is the reason why the great majority of English writers of the time used French or Latin. Anyone could understand those - assuming they could read at all, which most couldn't.

Austin - if you remember what that book was, please tell me.

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:14 pm

"The exception proves the rule."

People often mistakenly think this means if you find a case where a rule doesn't apply, that just proves the rule actually is true. But that's wrong. For example, if you say "all birds can fly" and I say "penguins are birds but they can't fly", and you replied "that's the exception that proves the rule", I would be permitted to stab you*. What I have actually done is disprove your silly rule, you silly person.

The phrase can be traced back to the damn Romans (again with the damn Romans) who had a legal principle which stated, exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis ("the exception confirms the rule in cases not excepted"). This meant that a rule such as "you are given special permission to eat meat today" implies the existence of a rule that would otherwise have prohibited you from eating meat today. (It's a silly principle; in fact, the Ninth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution specifically counters it: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people" [or, put another (dumbed-down) way, "just 'cause we said you can do something in a specific way doesn't mean you're prohibited from doing it a different way; we have to actually say you can't do it that way before it's prohibited"].)

So my point is, if anyone inappropriately says "the exception proves the rule", you should end the phrase for them the way it was originally intended to be ended: "'...in cases not excepted', which your dumb rule forgot to do."
Gord wrote:Þorn (or þorn)
:facepalm: (or :facepalm: )

That was supposed to say "Þorn (or thorn)". Saying "Þorn (or þorn)" makes me feel stupider.




*okay fine, I would not be permitted to, even though I really should
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"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:15 pm

Verbing the noun.

Some people don't like it when nouns get verbed. I remember hearing someone complain about being "deplaned" when they got off a plane. They thought it was more proper to say "disembarked".

Guess what "disembarked" means? A barque was a boat; to "embarque" meant to "get on the boat". It's the modern version of saying "enplane", which is just verbing "plane" and emphasising it with an "en-" prefix that means "into". Like, what, we have to specify we're getting into it and not clinging tenaciously to the outer hull? Nah. Let's just plane, already.

Likewise, have you ever been poisoned? Poison was a noun until, around 1300 A.D., someone verbed it. "I got poisoned" refers to being affected by a poison in the same way "I got trucked" might refer to someone being affected by a truck. "Man, that lorrie just trucked that Pinto!" Yeah, I think that works! :good:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:43 pm

It woud be great if teacherz woud tell the new 1st day students the horrible truth; there iz no consistent lojik in English. Try to imajin how much time iz wasted on this planet by peepl digging thru ancient text hoping to gain clarity, wen all there really iz iz a big pile uv factoidz.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:30 am

Is there any language with consistent logic? And if so, don't its speakers find it difficult to communicate with it?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:38 am

Probably not 100%, but thats no excuse.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:50 am

I'm pretty sure it is. :heh:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Poodle » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:43 am

In a language with consistent logic there'd be no nuance ... no poetry, no great literature, hardly any jokes.

Give me the faulty version, every time.

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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:38 pm

Esperanto iz nearly perfect.

Wun uv the big ideaz iz that you can create new compoundz on the spot. Wen you do that with English, no matter how much sens it makes, therez alwayz a smartass telling you 'thats not a real word, moron!'
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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:42 pm

Gord wrote:I'm pretty sure it is. :heh:
Were you the kid in 2nd grade who sez "but Tommy did it first", expecting the teacher to say "OK then. Sorry I hassled you"?
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:42 pm

JO 753 wrote:
Gord wrote:I'm pretty sure it is. :heh:
Were you the kid in 2nd grade who sez "but Tommy did it first", expecting the teacher to say "OK then. Sorry I hassled you"?
No, I was the pedant who recognized a difference between "excuse" and "reason". :P
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"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:03 am

Poodle wrote:In a language with consistent logic there'd be no nuance ... no poetry, no great literature, hardly any jokes. Give me the faulty version, every time.
I think so too.

I have discovered that You tube has videos of Morcombe & Wise's "The Play what I wrote" with all the top English Shakespearean Thespians using English as a weapon to destroy the English language and its entire legacy culture.


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Re: English multitopic

Post by Monster » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:50 am

Poodle wrote:In a language with consistent logic there'd be no nuance ... no poetry, no great literature, hardly any jokes.

Give me the faulty version, every time.
Agreed.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:04 am

Soooo... top down dictatorial rule sumhow spurz creativity? Interesting hypothosis. Pleaze elusidate.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:24 am

JO 753 wrote:Soooo... top down dictatorial rule sumhow spurz creativity? Interesting hypothosis. Pleaze elusidate.
Great question. I'll have guess at the answer.

I don't think you can have a purely logical language because there is no one "thing" that that logic is trying to achieve. Yes, clear communication with the other person is one aim, however like "a peacock's display" humans also use language simultaneously to pick up partners, intimidate, ad tones that change meaning, pull faces that are simultaneously part of the message and so on.

English, because it is a complete mess created from other languages, allows the user "like a peacock's display" to make complex double meanings ("wit"), suggest two different things with the same words, ("poetry") and so on as part of of "our show" to let the other person know we are intelligent or a good sexual partner.


I think emoticons or smilies are interesting, because we all accept here, that we need them because we can't see each other's faces when talking and someone is cracking a joke. I imagine jokes would disappear if we had a purely logical clear communication language.

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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:09 am

You are mistaking the tool for the work. :D
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:30 am

JO 753 wrote:You are mistaking the tool for the work.
I'm talking about language not the written script.

Australian and some English still use rhyming slang to simply avoid using normal language and also, so as to display that they are from the same class background. As I said, language serves many different purposes simultaneously.


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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:36 pm

I got most uv that without the tranzlation.

I'm talking about both.

I dont know any other languajez, but I think its unlikely that English iz sumhow especialy suited for creativ slang or creativity in jeneral.

Considering languaj az a tool prezents the idea that the tool can be improved. If you compare English to Esperanto it seemz to me that there arent any perfromans parameterz in wich English winz. The only detail it haz iz in its favor iz not requiring everything to hav a jender. Not much uv a project to eliminate that from Esperanto.

But peepl obviously like English, so why not fix it up? Aside from the spelling, its got sum flawz that arent so hard to fix.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:49 am

JO 753 wrote:I dont know any other languajez, but I think its unlikely that English iz sumhow especialy suited for creativ slang or creativity in jeneral.
Actually it is. English is a mixture of two main languages, Latin and Germanic. (Thank you Roman and Anglo-Saxon invaders) and thus we end up with two words for most things and our bizarre syntax rules.

"She's lamb dressed as mutton" is the German derived word lamb and the Latin/Celtic word Mutton. It is the volume of double words in English that allows for such double meaning word play.

I love German but it has a tendency to make new compound words that just don't roll off the tongue like English.
English = Tank
German = Panzerkampfwagen.



Read a bit of Shakespeare and you can see how strong German syntax used to be in English.
Modern English = I am cold
Shakespearean English = It is cold to me.

JO 753 wrote:But peepl obviously like English, so why not fix it up? Aside from the spelling, its got sum flawz that arent so hard to fix.
It's the flaws that allow for English word play humour.

One interesting thing I am watching is movie subtitles. In Russia they simply voice over foreign movies and don't have sub titles. I had a friend arrive from Moscow recently. He claims "The Big Lebowski" is only funny in Russian. He say's the English version with Russian sub titles doesn't make any sense. I watched both versions and can't hear any big differences.

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Re: English multitopic

Post by TJrandom » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:22 am

Monster wrote:
Poodle wrote:In a language with consistent logic there'd be no nuance ... no poetry, no great literature, hardly any jokes.

Give me the faulty version, every time.
Agreed.
Well, I disagree... Back when I was programming - it would have been hard to finish the job if those programming languages included poetry, nuance, or jokes. So give me a perfect version, every time! 8-)

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Poodle » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:25 pm

That's why English isn't a programming language, TJ. You could use it, I suppose, but any algorithm would come out with a dozen different results. And have you heard a computerised joke-teller? No sense of timing at all.

But Matthew has it, I think, although he's a bit short on roots. English has grown out of whatever Celtic roots we had, Latin (more from the church than via the Romans), a set of Scandinavian languages, a set of other more Germanic languages, Norse again (via the Normans) together with Norman French, full-blown French as the price to pay for the post-Norman set of monarchs (Richard the Lionheart couldn't speak a word of English) and then, of course, we have a more recent American influence.

English can't help but be heavily nuanced. I think it's great.

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:33 pm

I think the language you're looking for is Lojban.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by TJrandom » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:54 pm

Austin Harper wrote:I think the language you're looking for is Lojban.
Even Lobonic poetry... :)

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Re: English multitopic

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:00 pm

Austin Harper wrote:I wish I could remember the name of the book, but I have a collection of Old English poetry that sometimes has multiple versions side-by-side from different regions (Mercia, Sussex, Kent, etc.) and it's interesting to see how the spellings (and presumably pronunciations) vary.
Poodle wrote:Austin - if you remember what that book was, please tell me.
I found it. It is The Cambridge Old English Reader, edited by Richard Marsden.
You can find a used copy of an old edition on Amazon for $3.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:28 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
JO 753 wrote:I dont know any other languajez, but I think its unlikely that English iz sumhow especialy suited for creativ slang or creativity in jeneral.
Actually it is. English is a mixture of two main languages, Latin and Germanic. (Thank you Roman and Anglo-Saxon invaders) and thus we end up with two words for most things and our bizarre syntax rules.
Sceptic vs Skeptic is one that always bugs me. I've not looked into why the difference in C or K, might not even be a Latin or Gemanic thing.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by ElectricMonk » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:57 am

Hey, if Britain didn't want to be invaded, it should not have dressed so provocatively - in my opinion, most invadees are asking for it.

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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:09 pm

And if it wuznt for the gorram relijus fundamentalist conservativz, she woud hav aborted this abomination.
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:52 pm



:neener:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Is Trump in jail yet?

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JO 753
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Re: English multitopic

Post by JO 753 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:25 am

Didnt sumwun post that alredy? I saw it a wile bak.

Its a moronic argument suitable for debate in a kindergarten class.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

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Gord
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Re: English multitopic

Post by Gord » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:07 pm

JO 753 wrote:Its a moronic argument suitable for debate in a kindergarten class.
Is not is not! :neener:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

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fromthehills
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Re: English multitopic

Post by fromthehills » Fri May 27, 2016 1:58 pm

Great thread.