Unschooling

Methods and means of supporting critical thinking in education
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RubyHypatia
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Unschooling

Post by RubyHypatia » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:49 pm

Anyone ever hear of unschooling? It's homeschooling your child with very little structure. I did that with my daughter, who is 19 years old, and now I'm not sure if that was the right thing to do. She would have learned more at school, but at the same time if she had gone, she would have been a target for bullies. She has ADD, talks a bit slow, and is nothing like the teenage girl stereotype. Plus, she really hates crowds.

She loves cartoons and anime, and is writing anime stories. She also likes to create animation on her computer. Hopefully someday she'll be able to make a living in this field.

I just wish there were better school options than what we have now. There probably would be if the government didn't have a monopoly.

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Re: Unschooling

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:44 pm

The government doesn't have a monopoly.
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Re: Unschooling

Post by Pyrrho » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:19 pm

I taught my kids that the sun is a thousand miles away and that the earth is the center of the universe.
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Re: Unschooling

Post by RubyHypatia » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:48 pm

Pyrrho wrote:I taught my kids that the sun is a thousand miles away and that the earth is the center of the universe.


I take it you have an issue with homeschooling with Christian parents teaching only their religious views? I can understand that, but at the same time, these kids will be indoctrinated into their parents' religion anyway. BTW, my daughter is an agnostic who accepts Common Descent. She doesn't know much about science, but she knows we evolved. I had to undo some damage because I was still a Christian up until several years ago. I had taught her that God exists, that Jesus loved her. I'm just glad that we weren't church goers as that would have made it harder to undo the brainwashing.

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Re: Unschooling

Post by Monster » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:06 pm

RubyHypatia wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:I taught my kids that the sun is a thousand miles away and that the earth is the center of the universe.


I take it you have an issue with homeschooling with Christian parents teaching only their religious views? I can understand that, but at the same time, these kids will be indoctrinated into their parents' religion anyway. BTW, my daughter is an agnostic who accepts Common Descent. She doesn't know much about science, but she knows we evolved. I had to undo some damage because I was still a Christian up until several years ago. I had taught her that God exists, that Jesus loved her. I'm just glad that we weren't church goers as that would have made it harder to undo the brainwashing.

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Re: Unschooling

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:09 pm

Pyrrho wrote:I taught my kids that the sun is a thousand miles away and that the earth is the center of the universe.

I taught my kids that I am the center of the universe, and the nearest help is 1000 miles away. :mrgreen:
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Re: Unschooling

Post by brauneyz » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:17 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:I taught my kids that the sun is a thousand miles away and that the earth is the center of the universe.

I taught my kids that I am the center of the universe, and the nearest help is 1000 miles away. :mrgreen:


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Re: Unschooling

Post by bigtim » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:45 pm

No offense, please don’t any, but the unschooling method just hurts a child. It does not teach them how the real world works. Nobody, anywhere, let’s them do what they want when they want. Keeping a kid protected on fear of bullying makes them less capable of handling strong and stressful personalities in the workplace.

The public school education is far more than just scholastic education. The reality is only kids that are driven succeed – and that plays a large part on how the parents interact with the child and their education. The lessons on how to deal with strong personalities, even bullies, is a hard one. Bullying in the workplace can be as prevalent as school – it doesn’t go away.

But, as what was said before, government does not have a monopoly on education. Public education is something taxes pay for. But private education exists all over the place.
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Re: Unschooling

Post by RubyHypatia » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:20 pm

Bigtim, students committing suicide because of bullying means there's a big problem with our education system. I'm not sure people out in the workforce are killing themselves because of bullying.

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Re: Unschooling

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:23 pm

I googled "Adult Bullying." This is the first result, and it is relevant.
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Re: Unschooling

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:20 pm

Austin Harper wrote:I googled "Adult Bullying." This is the first result, and it is relevant.

Which raises the question: Does exposure to bullying in school actually protect adults from adult bullying?
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Re: Unschooling

Post by Pyrrho » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:27 pm

RubyHypatia wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:I taught my kids that the sun is a thousand miles away and that the earth is the center of the universe.


I take it you have an issue with homeschooling with Christian parents teaching only their religious views?

I actually don't. I respect the right of the parent to teach their children outside of the formal system, even it that means they will teach their child the rough equivalent of what I posted.
I can understand that, but at the same time, these kids will be indoctrinated into their parents' religion anyway. BTW, my daughter is an agnostic who accepts Common Descent. She doesn't know much about science, but she knows we evolved. I had to undo some damage because I was still a Christian up until several years ago. I had taught her that God exists, that Jesus loved her. I'm just glad that we weren't church goers as that would have made it harder to undo the brainwashing.

The key is to teach people how to evaluate arguments and evidence.
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Re: Unschooling

Post by RubyHypatia » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:24 am

At least you can quit your job and find another one. You can't quit school until you're 16. I've talked to younger people at work who said they often feared for their physical well being when they were still in school. I'm not saying all schools are bad, but too many are.

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Re: Unschooling

Post by The Sea is Mine » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:30 am

I respect the right of parents to teach kids on their own also. However, it should be considered a supplement, not a substitute for teaching kids the necessary skills of living and working with others in a public setting, which is part of what formal schooling is about. I agree with Bigtim on this.

In a way I see private schools and charter schools as a way i which parents try to better their kids by isolating them from certain segments of society. (by the way, many studies suggest charter schools are not all that better than regular schools, especially given the fact that they are selective of students, thereby unable to fairly portray themselves as being able to raise test scores).

She has ADD, talks a bit slow, and is nothing like the teenage girl stereotype.
Thats actually good. I hate the way teenagers act these days.

As for school bullying, that's another discipline problem related with society in general, which has happened since the 1960s. Teachers are afraid of disciplining schools and of helicopter parents. No other country has a problem on the scale that we have when it comes to this. Example, saw a group of Azerbaijiani school kids in a classroom. Headmaster called on them, and they would always stand up military style to answer him.

Let's reform kids sense of discipline and responsibility before running away to private homes and caves
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Re: Unschooling

Post by Monster » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:50 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:I googled "Adult Bullying." This is the first result, and it is relevant.

Which raises the question: Does exposure to bullying in school actually protect adults from adult bullying?

It doesn't. I was bullied a lot in school. It prepared me for nothing, as far as I can tell, and the experience protected me from nothing now. We do have bullies at my office now, but they are few and far between.
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Re: Unschooling

Post by bigtim » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:50 am

Monster wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:I googled "Adult Bullying." This is the first result, and it is relevant.

Which raises the question: Does exposure to bullying in school actually protect adults from adult bullying?

It doesn't. I was bullied a lot in school. It prepared me for nothing, as far as I can tell, and the experience protected me from nothing now. We do have bullies at my office now, but they are few and far between.


Well, I’m not talking about being bullied is necessary to learning how to exist in the adult world. Conflict is. Not all conflict is bullying (though some may see that it is). All bullying is conflict.

If there is any fear of violence in a school my recommendation is to pull your kid out of the school. Tell the school administration the violence in the school is unacceptable and that’s the reason you want to move your kid to a different school. Many states allow this move (with reasons). We’re actually doing that with my 13 year old now. It's a new school for him (thanks to redistricting) and he doesn't like it. Kids talk about drugs all the time and they vandalize the walls with graffiti and doesn't seem the staff doesn't anything. We told this to the district as our reason for moving him back to his old school in the end of the semester. They seemed quite interested in that feedback.

As my wife is fond of telling me “no one is like you”. I moved a lot as a kid... we were basically nomads. I was always the new kid and always bullied. I was also really big -- but still picked on. Did not help I had a mother whose mantra was “don’t hit, don’t fight back, violence is evil”. I learned that the best way to deal with bullies was to return harder than you got. Only when you did that (either verbally or physically) you were left alone.
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Re: Unschooling

Post by The Sea is Mine » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:11 am

bigtim. do i get credit, for at least once agreeing with you?
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Re: Unschooling

Post by bigtim » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:37 am

The Sea is Mine wrote:bigtim. do i get credit, for at least once agreeing with you?


I'm more than happy to give credit... not sure where the agreement was though (caveat on 2 bourbons at this stage). Can you quote our statements?
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Re: Unschooling

Post by Monster » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:11 pm

bigtim wrote:I learned that the best way to deal with bullies was to return harder than you got. Only when you did that (either verbally or physically) you were left alone.

A spectacular reason why pacifism is wrong.
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Re: Unschooling

Post by RubyHypatia » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:49 pm

This kid got exactly what he deserved:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJMr_t8W ... 6E9522662E

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Unschooling

Post by fromthehills » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:28 am

Being an Army brat, I was always the new kid in school, as well. And I don't share the luxury of being big. Nobody picked on me for long.

We home school, my stepson, I mostly don't approve, but I'm no authority. I do approve of his critical thinking skills, and his disrespect of authority. His unleashing to the world is a bit scary, however. Only 6 years 4 months and 11 days to go. God willing!

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Re: Unschooling

Post by bigtim » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:34 am

RubyHypatia wrote:This kid got exactly what he deserved:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJMr_t8W ... 6E9522662E


Yep! Snapshot of my childhood.

fromthehills wrote:Being an Army brat, I was always the new kid in school, as well. And I don't share the luxury of being big. Nobody picked on me for long.

We home school, my stepson, I mostly don't approve, but I'm no authority. I do approve of his critical thinking skills, and his disrespect of authority. His unleashing to the world is a bit scary, however. Only 6 years 4 months and 11 days to go. God willing!


how many hours?
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Unschooling

Post by fromthehills » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:16 am

I'll let him finish his cake before I actually start moving his bags to the front door. He's not that bad.

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Re: Unschooling

Post by JO 753 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:03 pm

After watching Waiting for Superman, if I were foolish enuf to hav kidz, I woudnt put them in skool. Bullying iz not the biggest problem.

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Re: Unschooling

Post by RubyHypatia » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:53 pm

I've not seen that, JO, but I have watched John Stossel's Stupid in America. Damn teachers' unions! They make it almost impossible to get rid of shitty teachers. But hey, their jobs are more important than the kids' education.
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Re: Unschooling

Post by JO 753 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:07 pm

They go into that in the movie. Wun uv a number uv fundamental problemz.

I don't think its ever going to get much better. At the root uv all the trouble iz our goofy spelling nonsystem, and educatorz are usually the worst kind uv Gate Keepers.

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Re: Unschooling

Post by bigtim » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:23 pm

HAHAHAHA -- sorry Jo, the way our language spells and works is not any problem, much less the root.

We do have a problem with public schools. And bullying is not the major one. The archaic methods of teaching, the lack of funds, the warehousing of kids.... the list can go on. Teachers are paid crap so it has to be a calling for them. I have folks that work in my HR department that were teachers and they now make 3x more than what they did teaching.

That's why parents HAVE to be involved. You can't excpect the school to do it all. And, unfortunately, that's what a lot of parents do. I've actually heard parents say "during the day they're not my problem" (referring to their kids). And "that's their job" (referring to the school).
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Re: Unschooling

Post by RubyHypatia » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:18 pm

Bigtim, you should watch Stossel's Stupid in America:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyswCDwe3uo

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Re: Unschooling

Post by bigtim » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:04 pm

watched it -- and it sounds like repub party line to be honest (Fox isn't really the harbinger of truth).

I think the problem is far more complicated that "the unions are killing it". I also have contention with the 8% success rate claimed. What do they consider success? High School graduation? Then it's far higher than 8%. The tenure is a red herring arugment. It doesn't prevent getting rid of underperforming teachers.

http://www.education.com/debate/teacher-tenure/

Also, I have always had issue with the concept of "underperforming teachers". What the hell does that mean anyway? Kids do poorly on tests so the teacher sucks? How do you measure a teacher's performance?
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Re: Unschooling

Post by JO 753 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:54 pm

Az usual, boldly jumping in with an opinion without first gathering info. :roll:

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Re: Unschooling

Post by JO 753 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:59 pm

PS did you see Kick Ass ?

That woud be you doing home skooling!

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Re: Unschooling

Post by RubyHypatia » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:32 pm

John Stossel is a Libertarian, not a Republican. And was he and others lying when they described the bureaucratic nightmare it is getting rid of bad teachers? Was he lying when he said that education spending has gone up while results have remained flat? The problem isn't that we're not spending enough money, it's that the money isn't used efficiently. This is why schools should be privatized, with a voucher program.

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Re: Unschooling

Post by JO 753 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:08 am

Libertarian, Republican, Conservative.... Its all the same blob uv nonsense theze dayz. ( maybe youre confuzing Liberal and Libertarian? similar name , polar oppozits)

But in this case, he iz rite. It iz next to impossible to fire bad teacherz and the difference in rezults between great teacherz and bad teacherz iz extreem. The unionz are ded set against merit pay and tenure iz automatic insted uv earned.

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Re: Unschooling

Post by bigtim » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:05 am

Lying or just showing a single slice of it? Seriously, those few minute blurbs cannot do anything more than encite. Not every system is the same, not all problems are the same. I think my questions posed above are highly valid. What performance metrics do you [general you, not you personally] use to identify teachers performance levels?
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Re: Unschooling

Post by JO 753 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:33 am

Generally, its by how well their students do. Like any proffession, sum people have a talent for it, otherz do not.

I went to Chicago public skoolz. (can you imajin a CPS teacher sitting at her computer reading this with my spelling? :lol: :lol: :lol: ) I had a few teacherz who really stood out. To put a single word to it : Enthuziazm. They had the ability to make the kidz want to learn. The rest were just OK.

But dont rely on just 3rd hand opinionating, watch that movie, or google up sum reports.

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Re: Unschooling

Post by bigtim » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:46 am

HAHAHAHA -- I bet your teachers would flip!

I'm living the public education system. 3 kids, 2 to come into the system... and my wife and I are and have alwasy been fully involved. In grade school my wife volunteered in the classrooms.

My question is not about what some documentary said (I find all of them one sided and they all, even ones I may agree with, have an agenda).

The thing is -- how do you tell how successful the students are? Teaching is not like any other profession. You can't just measure output. Even testing doesn't tell you if the student knows it or not. Just tells you how good the kid was, at that moment, at taking a test. Did they learn it? Hell no. They took a test.
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Re: Unschooling

Post by RubyHypatia » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:24 am

I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to tell the great teachers from the sucky ones. Heck, ask the students. Though it's been a while since I was in school, I recall the teachers who were more engaged with the students, got us excited about learning, and my grades reflected their enthusiasm. And I remember the teachers who were there only to collect a paycheck. They could take a perfectly interesting subject and make it as dull as dirt. I flunked 2nd. grade because I had a shitty teacher. Some teachers just shouldn't be in the classroom. But of course the teachers' union don't give a rat's ass about these teachers' students.

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Re: Unschooling

Post by The Sea is Mine » Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:52 am

RubyHypatia wrote:I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to tell the great teachers from the sucky ones. Heck, ask the students. Though it's been a while since I was in school, I recall the teachers who were more engaged with the students, got us excited about learning, and my grades reflected their enthusiasm. And I remember the teachers who were there only to collect a paycheck. They could take a perfectly interesting subject and make it as dull as dirt. I flunked 2nd. grade because I had a shitty teacher. Some teachers just shouldn't be in the classroom. But of course the teachers' union don't give a rat's ass about these teachers' students.


no. you flunked 2nd grade because you were too lazy to learn and were a child who thought everything should be "fun". Most teachers are teachers because they like the profession. Don't blame your problems on others. I suggest you do some research into why we have teachers unions and protections in the first place.
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Re: Unschooling

Post by Major Malfunction » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:25 am

Just because you enjoy something, doesn't mean you're not {!#%@} at it.

I failed one class because the teacher was {!#%@}. She had an ancient textbook from her school years, and over the year she wrote it all out, word for word, on the blackboard while we tried to scribble it into our notebooks (because the book was no longer in print and she wasn't allowed to photocopy it due to copyright). When the blackboard was full, she rubbed it off and started at the top. Too bad if you couldn't write as fast as her. Two hours a week of this.

Is that good teaching?
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Re: Unschooling

Post by JO 753 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:35 am

Shheeeesh! nun uv my teacherz were that bad, Major. I did hav a few that wer 'dull az dirt'.

Sea. Wut do you call sumwun who blamez the victim? Seriously, youre propozing that there are no bad teacherz, only bad students.