Are we sure global warming is bad?

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Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by MikeN » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:18 am


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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:25 am

It might be advantageous for some (like Russia).
It's devastating for others.
The Syrian conflict is directly linked to global warming.

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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:44 am

Ah, you must have heard about this...
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by MikeN » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:02 am

No wars during the Little Ice Age then?
The Syrian war can be linked to a balance of power instead of one side getting crushed.

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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:34 am

MikeN wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:18 am
We've had two degrees already.
https://4k4oijnpiu3l4c3h-zippykid.netdn ... 20x271.jpg
Any associated link with that cartoon? Its always informative to see how Denial is discussed...........
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:43 am

too little too late - need external help ; something bigger than what wiped out the dinosaurs .

um wait ; you mean global warming good for the infestation . oops my bad , nevermind

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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by TJrandom » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:53 am

Death and destruction is good? Who knew.... :roll:

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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:14 am

MikeN wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:02 am
No wars during the Little Ice Age then?
The Syrian war can be linked to a balance of power instead of one side getting crushed.
nope.
It's due to a flight to the cities, because all the farms died because of drought. And tons of unemployed men in cities makes them easy targets for radicals.

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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:40 am

Tons of unemployed men ARE radical.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by Gord » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:43 pm

Yes, we're sure.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by MikeN » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:27 pm


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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:02 pm

MikeN wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:27 pm
The basis for the cartoon:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/03/17/ ... periments/
Thanks Mike.............and the actual link WAS/IS very informing. I'll have to go find just what "2C" warming was supposed to mean. I casually just thought it was a "market" along the way to all the horribles as the effect of 2C with no change in the pollution pattern will ABSOLUTELY AND UNAVOIDABLY lead to even higher temps. I also don't think we are at 2C rise "from pre industrial levels" just yet.......closer all the time, but not just yet although I could be wrong...........and.........yes there have been many and various disasters because of it........if you admit to it.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:45 pm

There is no doubt that global warming is bad. It is probably the most serious problem faced by humanity at this time, as long as we can avoid nuclear war.

My arguments with Bobbo and Lausten on global warming amount to telling them not to exaggerate. Global warming is bad, but is not going to cause human extinction or collapse of civilisation.

I suspect that, if the world had been 4 Celsius warmer for the past couple thousand years, and we were facing global cooling, that would be seen as an even worse problem. But a big reason these things are problems is due to the change. Humans can adapt to change, but it is often a very expensive process.

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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:48 pm

If we can adapt to AGW................what on earth makes it bad?.....................WHAT IS THAT, lance?

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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:56 pm

As I said, Bobbo, the problem is change. For example, if your house is built on the coast and the sea level rises, your house gets inundated, and you have to move. Expensive ! Moving is one of the ways we adapt, but the process is painful.

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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:36 am

You mean rate of change. but again: I'm tired of telling you.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:49 am

Actually, I am talking of the changes humans have to make. Not how quickly the temperature or the sea level rise.

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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:05 pm

With regard to climate change, which is the bigger threat, the "climate" or the "change?" As humans, we fear and resist change, but we do adapt.
But that's not to say that all change is good, but all changes tend to be a blend of pros and cons, including climate change. Coastlines will inevitably move inland, and in areas of low coastal plains, large areas will be inundated fairly rapidly. People in the Arctic regions are already being visibly impacted by the climate which is warming more rapidly there. Productive agricultural regions will lose productivity or be abandoned altogether due to climate change, but on the plus side, new areas will open up due to warmer growing seasons.

It's a heresy to some, but climate change is not all bad. There will be a few benefits. The medieval warm period accompanied a time of elevated prosperity for northern Europe. That's not to say it was good for people elsewhere. But the changes will nonetheless be devastating. Our economies are based on a status quo climate, and small changes will be destructive. We can not expect to escape the high costs of climate change.

Doomsayers will continue to try to induce panic, and deniers will continue to deny, but the majority of the public take it all with a grain of salt, because its human nature to face adversity with a stoic "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it" attitude.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by MikeN » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:10 pm

As seas rise, there are options of dredging the ocean floor to raise up the coast. Risk of New Orleans-Katrina type situation. Boston was mostly underwater in the past.

There was a drop in sea levels about ten years ago, which was attributed by some to water going into aquifers and reservoirs.
With warmer oceans, you should get more evaporation and more precipitation. Building more reservoirs would help both the problem of sea level rise and supply of drinking water.

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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:35 pm

MikeN wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:10 pm
As seas rise, there are options of dredging the ocean floor to raise up the coast. Risk of New Orleans-Katrina type situation. Boston was mostly underwater in the past.

There was a drop in sea levels about ten years ago, which was attributed by some to water going into aquifers and reservoirs.
With warmer oceans, you should get more evaporation and more precipitation. Building more reservoirs would help both the problem of sea level rise and supply of drinking water.
Building sea walls around highly populated coastal cities has been going on for centuries, but there will come a point where the costs will become too great. Ultimately, it's unsustainable as sea levels continue to rise. The Dutch are perhaps the least fearful of rising sea levels, as they have been fighting it for centuries.

Many aquifers are truly vast reservoirs of fresh water, but pumping them for human consumption and irrigation is an unsustainable practice. Allowing them to refill and building more reservoirs to contain runoff water are not solutions to sea level rise.

It's a fallacy to argue that "everything helps;" the Titanic still would have sank, even if all the passengers were bailing water over the side.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:52 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:05 pm

It's a heresy to some, but climate change is not all bad. There will be a few benefits. ............. But the changes will nonetheless be devastating. Our economies are based on a status quo climate, and small changes will be destructive.
typical landrew. Says "A" then "Not A." Boy can't sum up.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by landrew » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:08 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:52 pm
landrew wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:05 pm

It's a heresy to some, but climate change is not all bad. There will be a few benefits. ............. But the changes will nonetheless be devastating. Our economies are based on a status quo climate, and small changes will be destructive.
typical landrew. Says "A" then "Not A." Boy can't sum up.
Your filter just can't seem to detect anything that isn't black or white.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:16 am

There is black and white and gray and red and blue and yellow and brown and infra-red and radio waves and gravitational waves and parallel universes and thing known and unknown.

You can post correctly that bailing water on the Titanic doesn't make a difference and then post that climate change is not all bad.

Yes, dying in the water off the Titanic is not all bad because you didn't have to wait in line at immigration. Silly concept to cherry pick and contradict yourself the way you do. "Boy can't sum up."

Do the math.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by MikeN » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:44 am

> not solutions to sea level rise.

But they did lower sea level before, fulfilling Obama's promise in Berlin that 'this is the moment when the oceans stopped their rise'.

I'm not talking about reservoirs to contain runoff, but rather to collect rain which is expected to increase with global warming.

With 3mm/ year sea level rise and oceans accounting for 80% of area, you would need 12 mm/year of land increase. If you build a reservoir 12m deep, you would need .1% of land set aside every year as reservoirs to counteract sea level rise(or go for a deeper reservoir). Digging the ocean floor deeper and putting it at the coasts can only get you tenths of a millimeter and would not help.

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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by landrew » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:01 am

MikeN wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:44 am
> not solutions to sea level rise.

But they did lower sea level before, fulfilling Obama's promise in Berlin that 'this is the moment when the oceans stopped their rise'.

I'm not talking about reservoirs to contain runoff, but rather to collect rain which is expected to increase with global warming.

With 3mm/ year sea level rise and oceans accounting for 80% of area, you would need 12 mm/year of land increase. If you build a reservoir 12m deep, you would need .1% of land set aside every year as reservoirs to counteract sea level rise(or go for a deeper reservoir). Digging the ocean floor deeper and putting it at the coasts can only get you tenths of a millimeter and would not help.
We can't micromanage nature. We need to disabuse ourselves of that notion. We can only manage our own activities so that they don't impact our environment unsustainably.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:16 am

Massive fresh water reservoirs are not a way of stopping sea level rise. They should be built, though, as a means of solving fresh water shortage. It is a traditional method used in north India where rainfall is heavy but infrequent. Collect the water and dole it out for irrigation.

Global warming and sea level rise are not disasters because of the heat and sea level. After all, the world has seen all that before, and life has thrived. The problem is the change. Humans do better under more stable conditions. Having to build new homes, new cities, acclimate to greater warmth, irrigate where that becomes needed, or drain flood waters if that is the problem, grow different crops etc. is the problem. We can and will do it, but it is better to maintain more stable conditions.

The reverse situation would be worse. Imagine a world in which average global temperatures are 6 degrees warmer on average, and sea levels are higher. Imagine it has been like that for a thousand years or more. Now imagine that people are facing global cooling, with temperatures due to drop
6 degrees in a couple hundred years. That would be a major disaster. Suddenly less rain, no crops from the wheat belt (Siberia and north Canada), large areas of stinking mud exposed along the coasts, harbours left high and dry, having to move people from the warm Arctic regions south to avoid cold, the lucrative north west passage closing, and all kinds of other horrible changes.

The problem is coping with change. Not being unable to handle more warmth.

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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by landrew » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:41 pm

Science would be remiss if it did not consider all possibilities. By my understanding, the Milankovitch Cycle has us nearly due for another descent into another ice age. Conventional science knows this, but the consensus is that the cooling trend is being off-set by the temperature rise caused by the buildup of CO2 in the atmosphere. I don't disagree with this consensus, but science also acknowledges that a portion of portion of CO2 release lags behind temperature rise, as a result of increased metabolic processes in the biosphere, particularly the soils and oceans.

Among other things, this suggests that the road to climate perdition is somewhat less than certain. The global warming hiatus is a well-documented pause in global temperature rise, but there's no way to be certain that it won't return, and after all, it appears to have been almost totally unforeseen. In fact, we can never be sure that the warming trend won't reverse from one year to the next. It would be unfortunate if we were to invest heavily into reversing temperature rise, but find ourselves in a deepening global cooling trend. It would be remiss to ignore this possibility.

I fully understand the "Pascal's Wager"-type approach, where the risks are deemed greater than uncertainty, therefore it's better to play it "better safe than sorry" so to speak, and proceed as though the risks are a certainty. But that doesn't make it a rational approach; we are better served by evaluating the true risks as we know them, than to choose the slightly more hysterical route of assuming the worst, and regarding it as a certainty. Better to have hedged our bets and lost a little, than to have bet it all on the wrong horse.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:54 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:41 pm
In fact, we can never be sure that the warming trend won't reverse from one year to the next.
..............because..............? Is your confusion over what "sure" means or what a trend is?........Or the basic science involved as if the Milankovitch Cycle might kick in by surprise or we move farther away from the Sun?

Did you mean to post in the Sci-Fi nedds more Sci in it so as to avoid the fiction you wish to contribute?
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by landrew » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:28 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:54 pm
landrew wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:41 pm
In fact, we can never be sure that the warming trend won't reverse from one year to the next.
..............because..............? Is your confusion over what "sure" means or what a trend is?........Or the basic science involved as if the Milankovitch Cycle might kick in by surprise or we move farther away from the Sun?

Did you mean to post in the Sci-Fi nedds more Sci in it so as to avoid the fiction you wish to contribute?
The Milankovitch cycle doesn't suddenly "kick in," is you care to do a little research.

It's abundantly clear that the warming hiatus occurred unforeseen, therefore you can't rule out that a cooling trend could also appear at any time.
You don't like that? Well, unfortunately you or anyone else can't rule it out.
Simple.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:33 pm

There was no warming hiatus "overall." Just a change where the heat was going .......or where/how it was measured.

so, by implication, you think it could get suddenly colder by the earth moving away from the sun?........Or should I look that up too: "Science and Magical Thinking."
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by landrew » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:44 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:33 pm
There was no warming hiatus "overall." Just a change where the heat was going .......or where/how it was measured.

so, by implication, you think it could get suddenly colder by the earth moving away from the sun?........Or should I look that up too: "Science and Magical Thinking."
Apparently, you enjoy your own version of the facts. Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do to change the real ones.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:49 pm

Was that a negative claim? That there was a hiatus in the warming trend? Or is the negative that you didn't provide any link or support at all?

There was no hiatus.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by landrew » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:56 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:49 pm
Was that a negative claim? That there was a hiatus in the warming trend? Or is the negative that you didn't provide any link or support at all?

There was no hiatus.
Give your petulance a rest and stop building straw men.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:58 pm

There were lots of articles on the supposed hiatus..........................FOLLOWED BY................articles that explained there wasn't.

Stop being so lazy and egotistical. Do the least amount of work possible. POST A LINK.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by landrew » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:05 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:58 pm
There were lots of articles on the supposed hiatus..........................FOLLOWED BY................articles that explained there wasn't.

Stop being so lazy and egotistical. Do the least amount of work possible. POST A LINK.
Any moron can see that the earth's temperatures have undergone peaks and valleys throughout history. Give up your idiotic claim that it only goes one direction.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:37 pm

TREND.

stoopid.

No link?==>No respect.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by landrew » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:51 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:37 pm
TREND.

stoopid.

No link?==>No respect.
Go back and read my post about the infantile debating tactic of shoving all the burden of proof on the other side.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:22 am

Providing a link is not burden of proof, it only one step above mindless lip flapping.

Buy that dictionary.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by landrew » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:32 pm

Religion, politics, propaganda, activism, marketing and all other forms of persuasion are based on faith and belief. Science is not.

Science is based on evaluating probabilities and weighing ideas like theories and hypotheses. Science doesn't have blind faith, agendas or causes; people do, even scientists. But it's not science at all if it relies on unfounded conclusions, preconceived conclusions or consensus opinion; it becomes pseudoscience.

There's nothing wrong with having an activist agenda, or sharing a consensus opinion, but don't conflate it with science as Bobbo and Lausten seem to do. Science it can never be. It's not science to rake up some rationale to "disprove" an inconvenient scientific fact that seems to betray the "cause" of fighting climate change. None of us are the enemy just for speaking what we deem to be the truth.

There's only one way through all this, and that's dealing honestly with ALL the data, whether we like it or not.
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Re: Are we sure global warming is bad?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:58 pm

lausten.......you sure like to offer baseless, objectively wrong opinions.

Copy and paste what i've said that you "think" supports your claim.

You really are on a downhill slide. "Pull up Luke..........."
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