Wild fires trap carbon

Heated discussions on a hot topic.
User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Wild fires trap carbon

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:09 pm

https://www.zmescience.com/science/wild ... bs-155576/

Interesting twist. We tend to think of forest fires as pouring CO2 into the atmosphere. But this research group suggests that, in the long term, forest fires actually reduce greenhouse gases. They do this by manufacturing charcoal, which ends up as carbon trapped in the soil. Eventually the forests grow back and reabsorb the carbon emitted during the fire.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 12178
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by TJrandom » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:31 am

Our results show that, globally, the production of pyrogenic carbon is equivalent to 12 % of CO2 emissions from fires and can be considered a significant buffer for landscape fire emissions,” Dr. Jones said.
OK - more charcoal than I thought might be produced from a forest fire - but still just 12% vs the 88% that is released into the atmosphere.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:47 pm

Yes, but think long term. 8 fires means an amount of carbon in the soil equal to the carbon in the forest. If you follow biological time rather than the very limited human time scale, you can see the value.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11685
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by landrew » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:23 pm

The numbers don't add up, and the logic fails. Charcoal doesn't find its way into the soil, it lies around on the surface until it's broken down, releasing carbon back into the atmosphere. At any rate it's ludicrous to think that it has any impact on the global carbon cycle.

As someone who was worked as a soil scientist and an environmental scientist, I know the conclusion is easily refutable.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 12178
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by TJrandom » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:37 pm

My guess is the best that could be said for wildfires, is that they release the carbon a bit slower than previously thought. Keeping the carbon in a tree for another 50 or more years would seem preferable. Of course wildfires are not planned, and one would not want to use them for carbon sequestration.

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
Has No Life
Posts: 12007
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:40 pm

Even if - - - the release of carbon is over a few days, the reabsorption would be over decades.

If there were a significant impact on the carbon cycle it would be a negative one vis-à-vis global warming.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

MikeN
Regular Poster
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:41 am

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by MikeN » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:18 am

TJrandom wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:37 pm
Of course wildfires are not planned,
That's the problem. Not enough planned fires.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:18 am

landrew wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:23 pm
The numbers don't add up, and the logic fails. Charcoal doesn't find its way into the soil, it lies around on the surface until it's broken down, releasing carbon back into the atmosphere.
Not my logic or my conclusions. These are the conclusions of reputable and expert researchers. I will put their conclusions ahead of landrew any day, especially since I have seen landrew make some awful errors.

Certainly this is a long term process. Short term, it is much better to have growing trees, which will absorb carbon much more quickly. But it is still interesting that forest fires are not as big a global warming disaster as I had thought.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11685
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:21 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:18 am
landrew wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:23 pm
The numbers don't add up, and the logic fails. Charcoal doesn't find its way into the soil, it lies around on the surface until it's broken down, releasing carbon back into the atmosphere.
Not my logic or my conclusions. These are the conclusions of reputable and expert researchers. I will put their conclusions ahead of landrew any day, especially since I have seen landrew make some awful errors.

Certainly this is a long term process. Short term, it is much better to have growing trees, which will absorb carbon much more quickly. But it is still interesting that forest fires are not as big a global warming disaster as I had thought.
So,
"You're wrong, but I don't know why."
Some logic there.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

MikeN
Regular Poster
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:41 am

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by MikeN » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:55 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:18 am
Certainly this is a long term process. Short term, it is much better to have growing trees, which will absorb carbon much more quickly. But it is still
Release 88% of the carbon so you can absorb CO2 more quickly does not seem like a good plan.

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5331
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:43 am

Actually, anything that helps create and retain topsoil is a good thing; and although I'm as much of a pyromaniac as the next guy, I'm not sure wildfires are the most efficient way to get there.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11685
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:58 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:43 am
Actually, anything that helps create and retain topsoil is a good thing; and although I'm as much of a pyromaniac as the next guy, I'm not sure wildfires are the most efficient way to get there.
A lot of irreversible erosion occurs after wildfires. The topsoil-holding effect of roots is lost.

https://extension.colostate.edu/soil-er ... ire-6-308/
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:04 pm

Things lying on top of the soil tend to end up buried over sufficient time. Think of all the archaeological treasures we dig up. These items started out on top. But soil has a slow rate of turnover, caused by invertebrates like earthworms, and stuff gets buried.

In fact, one of the techniques that has been suggested as a way to both improve soil quality and slow global warming is terra preta, which involves plowing charcoal into soil.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11685
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:57 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:04 pm
Things lying on top of the soil tend to end up buried over sufficient time. Think of all the archaeological treasures we dig up. These items started out on top. But soil has a slow rate of turnover, caused by invertebrates like earthworms, and stuff gets buried.

In fact, one of the techniques that has been suggested as a way to both improve soil quality and slow global warming is terra preta, which involves plowing charcoal into soil.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta
Wildfires don't create tera preta. It's a technique developed in the rain forest by burning trees and working the ashes into the soil. Anything helps the fertility of the nutrient-poor soils of the rain forest, but it doesn't last more than a few years.

Your lack of education and experience shows, along with your inability to admit when you're wrong.

Take it from a professional in the field, with decades of experience, you have it wrong.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:01 am

Landrew

You do not come across as a professional of any variety. Instead, your image is that of a stubborn cuss, who adopts a false stance and sticks to it regardless of how much evidence is supplied.

Terra preta soils, for your information, have been carbon dated to thousands of years, and remain more fertile than the surrounding soils with no carbon.

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/garden ... ardens.htm

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11685
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by landrew » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:42 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:01 am
Landrew

You do not come across as a professional of any variety. Instead, your image is that of a stubborn cuss, who adopts a false stance and sticks to it regardless of how much evidence is supplied.

Terra preta soils, for your information, have been carbon dated to thousands of years, and remain more fertile than the surrounding soils with no carbon.

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/garden ... ardens.htm
You are combining a whole lot of ignorance with your arguments in hopes of prevailing in some way.

I have been a professional scientist for many years.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:11 am

Landrew

In my past working life, I interviewed working scientists with Ph.D. degrees who were seeking employment. Some of them were idiots.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11685
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by landrew » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:44 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:11 am
Landrew

In my past working life, I interviewed working scientists with Ph.D. degrees who were seeking employment. Some of them were idiots.
Now you're just being silly.
Just like Bobbo, sore about being wrong.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:34 am

If you are so clever, landrew, instead of making unsupported claims, how about posting some genuine evidence.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11685
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by landrew » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:47 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:34 am
If you are so clever, landrew, instead of making unsupported claims, how about posting some genuine evidence.
I did, but you ignore everything but your own.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:09 pm

How about posting evidence relevant to the topic.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11685
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by landrew » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:55 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:09 pm
How about posting evidence relevant to the topic.
If you can't see the relevance, you don't understand the subject.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:24 pm

You posted a reference to show that after a forest fire, erosion is frequent. Big deal ! I suspect we all knew that already. That does not demonstrate that charcoal does not enter the soil. In other words, it is irrelevant. The thesis is that forest fires result in some carbon being trapped in soil. Not all the carbon. 12% was mentioned, which may be about right. Erosion may be a reason why it is not more than 12%, but mention of erosion does not obviate the thesis.

psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1699
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am
Custom Title: eugenics never stopped

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:34 pm

Prior to European colonization of the Americas, indigenous peoples used controlled burns to modify the landscape.[1] These controlled fires were part of the environmental cycles and maintenance of wildlife habitats that sustained the people's cultures and economies.[2] What was initially perceived by colonists as "untouched, pristine" wilderness in North America, was actually the cumulative result of these occasional, managed fires creating an intentional mosaic of grasslands and forests across North America, sustained and managed by the original Peoples of the landbase.[3][4][5][6][7]

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:27 am

The same thing was true in Australia, where the aboriginal people engaged in what is called mosaic burning. It kept the forests from taking over, and encouraged grass growth which was food for the grazing animals which the aboriginals preyed upon.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11685
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by landrew » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:00 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:27 am
The same thing was true in Australia, where the aboriginal people engaged in what is called mosaic burning. It kept the forests from taking over, and encouraged grass growth which was food for the grazing animals which the aboriginals preyed upon.
You're contradicting your earlier assertion that trees trap more carbon than any other vegetation.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:37 am

Straw man.

Read what I said again.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11685
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by landrew » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:57 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:37 am
Straw man.

Read what I said again.
You're too easily taken in by studies that create clickbait.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 12178
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by TJrandom » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:41 am

Yup, 'clickbait-y academic study titles' - shared more widely...

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11685
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by landrew » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:40 pm

As a former science professional, I'll be the first to admit that the field is rife with political and commercial bias. For many scientists, the key to success is to deliver a study which supports the agenda of those who funded it. Without being overtly fraudulent, a study can be designed to bring out the part of the story that someone wants to have told. It's a bit like misusing statistics to tell a distorted story.

Besides that, scientists themselves aren't perfect human beings:
https://files.transtutors.com/cdn/uploa ... -badly.pdf
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Wild fires trap carbon

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:35 pm

landrew wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:00 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:27 am
The same thing was true in Australia, where the aboriginal people engaged in what is called mosaic burning. It kept the forests from taking over, and encouraged grass growth which was food for the grazing animals which the aboriginals preyed upon.
You're contradicting your earlier assertion that trees trap more carbon than any other vegetation.
The two subjects are UNRELATED to each other. Figures you would connect them.

You can't be 100% wrong on everything you post without that being done on purpose. So again: "What is it with you?" Heh, heh. Like most performance art: not worth the time.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?