Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

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robinson
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Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by robinson » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:31 pm

Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:When this subject first came up for debate, it was called global warming. After a couple of years, or whatever, it became climate change. Well, suddenly, the world wasn't really warming anymore. Yes the climate was still changing. That is the only constant in this argument. And in my very amateur opinion, that will never change.
These are things I've heard from global warming deniers before, and they're all false.

The original term was "climate change". Later "global warming" became a subject of concern because it would lead to climate change. There was no point along the way where the world had stopped warming, despite the claims of the deniers.
None of the above is true. None of it. If you actually care about the issues, a good start is available for free online.

https://history.aip.org/climate/summary.htm

https://history.aip.org/climate/timeline.htm

A quick way to learn about phrases is the Ngram viewer.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?c ... ge%3B%2Cc0

Spreading made up or just false crap on the internet is easy, but stupid. Educating yourself about an important subject is a lot harder.
"If you tell people the truth, make them laugh. Otherwise they will kill you"
-- Oscar Wilde

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by robinson » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:35 pm

Ngram isn't some magic solution, but it does allow for some fact based thinking.

Like seeing when and how much a phrase was used in books over time.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?c ... ng%3B%2Cc0

It is easy and fast and sometimes you learn things.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?c ... ge%3B%2Cc0

Like the term "climate change

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?c ... ge%3B%2Cc0"
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by robinson » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:41 pm

"If you tell people the truth, make them laugh. Otherwise they will kill you"
-- Oscar Wilde

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:05 pm

No empirical evidence there, Robinson. Just a lot of claims and unsupported graphs.

https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/

My reference above is from NASA, which I consider a reputable source, and shows that 97% of climate scientists agree that the world is warming and it is because of human activity.

Please do not post unsupported claims and conclusions drawn from crackpot reasoning and "logic". It has been said, and correctly, that reasoning and logic are the perfect way to make horrendous mistakes with confidence.

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Gord » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:24 pm

robinson wrote:
Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:When this subject first came up for debate, it was called global warming. After a couple of years, or whatever, it became climate change. Well, suddenly, the world wasn't really warming anymore. Yes the climate was still changing. That is the only constant in this argument. And in my very amateur opinion, that will never change.
These are things I've heard from global warming deniers before, and they're all false.

The original term was "climate change". Later "global warming" became a subject of concern because it would lead to climate change. There was no point along the way where the world had stopped warming, despite the claims of the deniers.
None of the above is true. None of it.
I think you're really taking this "global warming denier" thing too far.

https://www.skepticalscience.com/climat ... arming.htm
And a Google Scholar search reveals that the term 'climate change' was in use before the term 'global warming', and has always been the more commonly-used term in scientific literature
Both of the terms in question are used frequently in the scientific literature, because they refer to two different physical phenomena. As the name suggests, 'global warming' refers to the long-term trend of a rising average global temperature....

...'Climate change', again as the name suggests, refers to the changes in the global climate which result from the increasing average global temperature....
As for "the world has stopped warming," see this video for a nice quick explanation:

"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by robinson » Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:31 pm

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OK that is sort of true, but not complete, hence Not true. Climate always changes, but that is not a constant in the argument.
And in my very amateur opinion, that will never change.
Not true, but since it is opinion it can't really be true or not
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by robinson » Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:42 pm

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Not true. The origin of the Greenhouse theory (basic global warming theory) was to explain ice ages, and the vast global climate change that has occurred over and over. It was never called global warming back then.
http://www.rsc.org/images/Arrhenius1896 ... 173546.pdf
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Not true. The essential truth gleaned from reading the actual scientific papers (link above), including both Plass and Callendar, among others, is that they were trying to come up with a scientific explanation for the ice ages. The big problem (http://www.rsc.org/images/Arrhenius1896 ... 173546.pdf) is mentioned in all papers, and it is the primary dispute in the theory over CO2 being the control knob for global climate.

It's painfully obvious neither side in this eternal slap fight actually knows anything about it. Don't take this personally, I'm including everybody from Watts to Mann in my sweeping condemnation.
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by landrew » Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:52 pm

robinson wrote:
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Not true. The origin of the Greenhouse theory (basic global warming theory) was to explain ice ages, and the vast global climate change that has occurred over and over. It was never called global warming back then.
http://www.rsc.org/images/Arrhenius1896 ... 173546.pdf
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Not true. The essential truth gleaned from reading the actual scientific papers (link above), including both Plass and Callendar, among others, is that they were trying to come up with a scientific explanation for the ice ages. The big problem (http://www.rsc.org/images/Arrhenius1896 ... 173546.pdf) is mentioned in all papers, and it is the primary dispute in the theory over CO2 being the control knob for global climate.

It's painfully obvious neither side in this eternal slap fight actually knows anything about it. Don't take this personally, I'm including everybody from Watts to Mann in my sweeping condemnation.
Oh please. Why can't this go back to a science debate, instead of a socio-ideological, partisan political, tribal battlefield?
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by robinson » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:01 pm

landrew wrote:Why can't this go back to a science debate,
If it starts out as a scientific debate, it stays one.
"If you tell people the truth, make them laugh. Otherwise they will kill you"
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by landrew » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:54 pm

robinson wrote:
landrew wrote:Why can't this go back to a science debate,
If it starts out as a scientific debate, it stays one.
Where?
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:03 pm

Who cares if it was originally called climate change,or global warming. Right now the world is experiencing the global warming version of climate change. We (meaning humanity) need to carry out the actions required to mitigate the warming, and at the same time, adapt to the warming that is inevitable.

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by robinson » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:30 pm

The following sums up the non-scientific nature of the Internets.
robinson wrote:If you actually care about the issues, a good start is available for free online.

https://history.aip.org/climate/summary.htm

https://history.aip.org/climate/timeline.htm

A quick way to learn about phrases is the Ngram viewer.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?c ... ge%3B%2Cc0
Lance Kennedy wrote:No empirical evidence there, Robinson. Just a lot of claims and unsupported graphs.
The American Institute of Physics, which I linked to, is just hand waved away. Ngram viewer is viewed as "claims and unsupported graphs", and if my experience has shown me anything, it is the idiots who are the most prolific and sure of themselves just don't read anything. They certainly haven't read the history I linked to.

The man who wrote it, is an expert on the history of this matter, it's what he do, he co-edited a series of history of science and technology books for Harvard University Press, served the History of Science Society in a variety of offices including Member of Council and Treasurer, and taught undergraduate and graduate courses on history of science at The Johns Hopkins University, the Eugene Lang College of the New School in New York City, and Princeton University.

But some uneducated pustular nobody can type out "hurr durr" and dismiss it because reasons. And the other morons will either applaud, or fling poo, depending on their level of ignorance.
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Gord » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:20 pm

robinson wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:When this subject first came up for debate, it was called global warming.
Not true
After a couple of years, or whatever, it became climate change.

Not true
Well, suddenly, the world wasn't really warming anymore.
Not true
Yes the climate was still changing. That is the only constant in this argument.
OK that is sort of true, but not complete, hence Not true. Climate always changes, but that is not a constant in the argument.
And in my very amateur opinion, that will never change.
Not true, but since it is opinion it can't really be true or not
Great, so we agree!

I honestly wasn't expecting that.
Gord wrote:These are things I've heard from global warming deniers before, and they're all false.
Not true
Um, you just agreed with me that they weren't true.
The original term was "climate change".
Not true
Is too is too! People were aware of climate change before they became concerned that global warming could drive it.
Later "global warming" became a subject of concern because it would lead to climate change.
Not true
Is too is too!
There was no point along the way where the world had stopped warming, despite the claims of the deniers.
Not true
Is too is too! However, I'm talking about global warming here in its well-understood sense: That the Earth has been warming since around the beginning of the industrial revolution due to the increase in human contributions of greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, otherwise known as anthropogenic warming. It's about the continual upward trend in global temperatures. This doesn't mean there haven't been times when measurements have shown a short-period drop in overall global temperatures. Fluctuations like that can happen, but do not mean global warming has stopped.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:23 am

On "the world is not warming ", there are always periods where climate change causes temperatures to go up and down. It is called variation. But if we look at global average temperatures over a period of decades, then since the industrial revolution, it has trended up.

Some time back, Jim Steele posted a shockingly dishonest graph of global temperature from 1998 and for roughly another ten years. Since 1998 was a strong El Nino year, it saw a big increase in temperature, which made this cherry picked graph look like global temperatures were falling. But all that was needed to reveal the lie was to add global average temperatures for the next few years, which were all up.

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by robinson » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:04 pm

landrew wrote:
robinson wrote:
landrew wrote:Why can't this go back to a science debate,
If it starts out as a scientific debate, it stays one.
Where?
Anywhere the debate is being done about the science.
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by landrew » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:16 pm

robinson wrote:
landrew wrote:
robinson wrote:
landrew wrote:Why can't this go back to a science debate,
If it starts out as a scientific debate, it stays one.
Where?
Anywhere the debate is being done about the science.
Such is the claim being made by both sides. So why do they never agree?
That's the giveaway that it's actually a political debate.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by robinson » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:01 pm

landrew wrote:
robinson wrote:
landrew wrote:
robinson wrote:
landrew wrote:Why can't this go back to a science debate,
If it starts out as a scientific debate, it stays one.
Where?
Anywhere the debate is being done about the science.
Such is the claim being made by both sides. So why do they never agree?
That's the giveaway that it's actually a political debate.
I used Ngram viewer to make it easy to look at some facts about words. Like when they first appeared, and how often they show up in books. Because some idiots were arguing over words. Of course one might agree with the following in this regard.

"once you put facts about the world up for debate, you’ve already lost"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/ho ... e-science/

If it actually was a debate about facts, the Ngram viewer would end the debate. In fact, if facts were the basis of an argument, there might not even be an argument. Except then the argument becomes one over the facts.

Or even more common, the ultimate avoidance of it all.
Lance Kennedy wrote:Who cares if it was originally called climate change,or global warming.
Yes, "who cares" is the ultimate result of using facts in a debate.
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by landrew » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:11 pm

Sorry, but it still sounds a lot like, "It's all about science but your side has all the science wrong."

Not so different from, "You can't be saved because you worship god the wrong way."

But that's just me.
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Phoenix76 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:54 am

Wheeeeee, what a great debate. Even on a skeptics forum, it is almost impossible to get some sort of relevant debate.

I know that I push the boundaries, a lot of times, but mostly I'm just trying to generate debate. Isn't that what we are about.

My dictionary defines skeptic as - a person who habitually doubts generally accepted beliefs. A person who mistrusts people or ideas in general. From the Greek, skeptikos, one who reflects upon.

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:13 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Wheeeeee, what a great debate. Even on a skeptics forum, it is almost impossible to get some sort of relevant debate.

I know that I push the boundaries, a lot of times, but mostly I'm just trying to generate debate. Isn't that what we are about.

My dictionary defines skeptic as - a person who habitually doubts generally accepted beliefs. A person who mistrusts people or ideas in general. From the Greek, skeptikos, one who reflects upon.
Black is white, white is black, everybody refutes with denial, and it goes on for decades.

Meanwhile the climate does what climates do...
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Gord » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:56 am

Phoenix76 wrote:mostly I'm just trying to generate debate. Isn't that what we are about.
I'm not. I'm about six two.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Phoenix76 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:55 am

Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:mostly I'm just trying to generate debate. Isn't that what we are about.
I'm not. I'm about six two.
Well Gord, when you get to 72 years of age, you will probably be about 6ft if your lucky. I've always been 6ft and one half inch. That half inch was very important - an ego thing if you get my drift. Unfortunately our skeletons compress over the years, so we shrink. I'm now about 5ft 11in. I gotta stretch myself somehow. :D

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:19 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Who cares if it was originally called climate change,or global warming. Right now the world is experiencing the global warming version of climate change. We (meaning humanity) need to carry out the actions required to mitigate the warming, and at the same time, adapt to the warming that is inevitable.
That's what "we" need to do. But, as this article points out, the "we" mostly responsible are doing nothing, in the grip of powerful economic interests who don't care if the world burns up in 20 or 30 years, as long as they get their 10% return on investment today.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:28 am

Phoenix76 wrote:
Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:mostly I'm just trying to generate debate. Isn't that what we are about.
I'm not. I'm about six two.
Well Gord, when you get to 72 years of age, you will probably be about 6ft if your lucky. I've always been 6ft and one half inch. That half inch was very important - an ego thing if you get my drift. Unfortunately our skeletons compress over the years, so we shrink. I'm now about 5ft 11in. I gotta stretch myself somehow. :D
I've got bad news for ya, Phoenix. I also was 6 ft and one-half inch at age 25. Over the years, I shrank. At your age, I was down to 5' 10", and now, at age 76, I'm 5' 9.5". But you may not shrink as much as I have. The good news, I'm told, is that 3" shrinkage is to be expected, and then it stops. The hard part is, my legs haven't shrunk, only my torso, which gives me that belt-under-the-armpits look we naturally associate with old men.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by landrew » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:43 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Who cares if it was originally called climate change,or global warming. Right now the world is experiencing the global warming version of climate change. We (meaning humanity) need to carry out the actions required to mitigate the warming, and at the same time, adapt to the warming that is inevitable.
That's what "we" need to do. But, as this article points out, the "we" mostly responsible are doing nothing, in the grip of powerful economic interests who don't care if the world burns up in 20 or 30 years, as long as they get their 10% return on investment today.
This may sound like sitting on the fence, but there shouldn't be a fence.
Somewhere between the extremes is the truth about climate change. Both sides have gone much too far, and the real science is getting left in the dust. Al Gore was wrong; the Arctic didn't become ice-free in 2013, and East Anglia shouldn't have burned all those historical weather records, but by the same token, the anti-side has produced some whoppers of pseudoscientific dogma, like tabulating all the glaciers that are advancing, while ignoring the greater number that are retreating, and calling it evidence of a coming ice-age.
Are we ever going to grow up?
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Gord » Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:50 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:
Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:mostly I'm just trying to generate debate. Isn't that what we are about.
I'm not. I'm about six two.
Well Gord, when you get to 72 years of age, you will probably be about 6ft if your lucky. I've always been 6ft and one half inch. That half inch was very important - an ego thing if you get my drift. Unfortunately our skeletons compress over the years, so we shrink. I'm now about 5ft 11in. I gotta stretch myself somehow. :D
Oh, I know! I used to be six foot two and three quarters inches! I've been shrinking for the past ten years, though. That's why I always lie down to measure my height now.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by landrew » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:03 pm

Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:
Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:mostly I'm just trying to generate debate. Isn't that what we are about.
I'm not. I'm about six two.
Well Gord, when you get to 72 years of age, you will probably be about 6ft if your lucky. I've always been 6ft and one half inch. That half inch was very important - an ego thing if you get my drift. Unfortunately our skeletons compress over the years, so we shrink. I'm now about 5ft 11in. I gotta stretch myself somehow. :D
Oh, I know! I used to be six foot two and three quarters inches! I've been shrinking for the past ten years, though. That's why I always lie down to measure my height now.
It depends on how many buckets of water you've carried on your head from the river to your village.
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:36 pm

landrew wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Who cares if it was originally called climate change,or global warming. Right now the world is experiencing the global warming version of climate change. We (meaning humanity) need to carry out the actions required to mitigate the warming, and at the same time, adapt to the warming that is inevitable.
That's what "we" need to do. But, as this article points out, the "we" mostly responsible are doing nothing, in the grip of powerful economic interests who don't care if the world burns up in 20 or 30 years, as long as they get their 10% return on investment today.
This may sound like sitting on the fence, but there shouldn't be a fence.
Somewhere between the extremes is the truth about climate change. Both sides have gone much too far, and the real science is getting left in the dust. Al Gore was wrong; the Arctic didn't become ice-free in 2013, and East Anglia shouldn't have burned all those historical weather records, but by the same token, the anti-side has produced some whoppers of pseudoscientific dogma, like tabulating all the glaciers that are advancing, while ignoring the greater number that are retreating, and calling it evidence of a coming ice-age.
Are we ever going to grow up?
Especially as the growing glaciers (about 20% of all glaciers) are easily explained as the result of increased precipitation due to increased ocean temperatures! The morons can't seem to understand that the existence of snowfall doesn't contradict a general warming trend. Every time we get a heavy snowfall here in Vermont, the idiots come out from under their rocks and write letters to the editor, asking mockingly, "Whatever became of global warming?"

The problem is that the whole public debate is off-target. It should be a political debate: What are we going to do with the expressed opinion of the academies of science of 110 countries? That's the only thing that should concern a voter. Instead, we've got a bunch of eager amateurs attempting to argue the science of it. It's tempting in this case, because some of the scientific principles involved are comprehensible with a modicum of study. But at the rock-bottom level (How do you know which stratum in an ice core corresponds to which year? How do you know how many years there are in the whole sample? And hundreds of other questions of detail---the detail that makes the difference between science and philosophy) laypersons should lay out. I can refute a lot of what the sophists trying to deny warming are saying. But that would be playing their game. I'd have to admit that I'm not a climatologist either, so my opinion carries no scientific weight.

The problem is that large corporations like Exxon have enormous resources with which to buy publicity aimed at discrediting the science, and their water carriers like Rash Limpjaw deliver them an enormous audience of ignorant, arrogant people who think they know more than the academies of science. LImpjaw has been promoting conspiracies for so long that he and his audience clearly prefer them to normal, commonsense explanations. They are the primary obstacle to a reasoned discussion of perhaps affordable policies that may avert the worst dangers. But, even though we could go to war in Iraq on the basis of severely challenged evidence that turned out to be falsified, killing hundreds of thousands of people and driving as many more into exile, disrupting the entire Middle East, and accumulating trillions of dollars of debt, the Bush Doctrine still prevails on climate change. According to that doctrine, we have to KNOW, with absolute certainty, that warming is a danger and is caused by human activity, before we can spend even one dollar on preventive measures. So, what would have been a useful public debate, is sterilized and rendered moot.
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by landrew » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:45 pm

I remember a classroom discussion that I was part of many years ago, concerning the debate about importing wolves into Montana, and a government spokesman there said we have to "work through the issue in a non-emotional, non-political and objective way, using the science to decide whether it's the right policy."

There was immediate rancor from several participants, who objected strongly, and said that the "only way" for progress to be made on the issue was for people to "become emotional and politically engaged." I disagree, because if you believe the "end justifies the means," how do you know that the means is correct, having arrived at it emotionally?
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:44 pm

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by landrew » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:52 pm

Fighting wildfires is a relatively recent phenomenon. Forests, scrub-lands and grasslands burned out of control quite regularly. It was nature's way of renewing the landscape. It's a fairly carbon-neutral process. Whether the vegetation rots slowly or burns quickly, the carbon goes into the atmosphere. Say what you will about the smoke. It is a nuisance.
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:48 pm

landrew wrote:Fighting wildfires is a relatively recent phenomenon. Forests, scrub-lands and grasslands burned out of control quite regularly. It was nature's way of renewing the landscape. It's a fairly carbon-neutral process. Whether the vegetation rots slowly or burns quickly, the carbon goes into the atmosphere. Say what you will about the smoke. It is a nuisance.
This is probably the reason so many people are cynical about recommendations from scientific organizations. After hearing all my life that "only YOU can prevent forest fires," I was flabbergasted about 30 years ago to learn that forest fires are neither good nor bad per se, and the Forestry Service was no longer going to try to put out fires caused by lightning, volcanoes, and the like.

I remember my authority figure (my second-grade teacher) telling us that the way to treat frostbite was to rub snow over the affected area. (Fortunately, frostbite victims were rare in the St. Louis area.) Then, of course, there was the first-line treatment against bleeding from an arm or leg: apply a tourniquet immediately.

And don't get me started on the vicissitudes of dietary advice over the decades. What was thought to kill people 50 years ago is now considered harmless for most people. This was all neatly skewered by Woody Allen in his movie "Sleeper," where Allen's character wakes up in the 23rd century in a clinic and is questioned by the doctor, whose nurse can't believe the 20th century diet. "What!" she says, "We're there no chocolate pies?" The doctor responds, "They were thought to be bad for health---exactly the opposite of what we now know to be the case." The doctor then offers Allen's character a cigarette, which the character naturally refuses. "But, my boy," says the doctor, "It's TOBACCO, ONE OF THE BEST THINGS FOR YOU!"
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by landrew » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:08 pm

Once again, scientific illiteracy takes it's toll. If people bothered to look into the basic facts of a "let it burn" policy, it came about when it was discovered that in some stands of redwoods, there were no trees younger than 100 years. They need fire to open the cones, and provide fertile soil for seedlings to take hold. In the absence of fire, redwoods would eventually become extirpated from the area.
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:51 pm

The battle raged in the St. Louis area, where I grew up. At one time, the county would pay a bounty of 25 cents for the ears of a groundhog (woodchuck) and $2.00 for those of a fox. Then suddenly, these species were protected and it became illegal to shoot them. They had discovered that rabbits often depend on groundhog burrows for shelter. (Not that rabbits are endangered anywhere, as far as I know, but they were a staple in my diet as a kid, along with squirrels.)

Anyway, the one thing I carry away from all this and cling to is a principle due to Bertrand Russell: (1) when the experts agree, the contrary opinion cannot be held to be certain, and (2) when the experts do not agree, any opinion by a non-expert is rash. I go more with the second of these. My expertise in science is limited to certain areas of mathematics and physics. Outside those areas, I keep a respectful silence.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Gord » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:59 pm

landrew wrote:Once again, scientific illiteracy takes it's toll.
its
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by landrew » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:54 pm

Gord wrote:
landrew wrote:Once again, scientific illiteracy takes it's toll.
its
I was taking about scientific illiteracy, not regular illiteracy.
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Re: Climate change, global warming and the coming ice age

Post by Cadmusteeth » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:47 am

:lol: